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function of the lead image, though. It is to give readers who don't read the whole article an accurate impression of the subject. We can't do that by presenting some random engraver's imagination of the subject. We can't expect readers to understand that this image was drawn from imagination 2000 years later rather than engraved from life in the time of
Hipparchus, with the limited space we have to explain such things in an infobox. —
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There's really only so much you can do with lighting such a photograph, and calling it creative is a pretty big stretch. So I'd be inclined to just go for it on UK photographs of coins (and if someone sends a takedown we can honor the request), but I imagine there are some
Wikipedians who are more conservative. –
1579:. If we can find a photo of one of these coins, taken face-on like the ones you link, that is clearly taken in the US, I think we're ok to upload it and use it per the precedent of Bridgeman vs Corel. If it was taken in a different country (like the one in your link, from the UK), that might not be true. —
1805:
I haven't been able to track down more yet about Smyth's supposed discovery, but I think I'm going to call it a night. I'll try to put a little bit more time into this tomorrow, but no promises. In any event, if we can't find a better image I think we should find the highest resolution scan we can of
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What we get from the source is that See elaborated. I don't think he can be trusted, even regarding the provenance of the image, especially because this information appears nowhere in
Chambers. We also have no idea without much better sourcing whether "ancient" means from the ancient world, or carved
1706:
Yes, but what we can get from the caption in that source is that both drawings (and later the stamp) depict an ancient metal "cameo" found by
Admiral Smyth in the Mediterranean c. 1813. Since this has been widely used as a depiction of Hipparchus, including e.g. by the Greek government in the form of
1219:
The purpose of
Knowledge is not only to inject factual trivia directly into readers' memories while bypassing their emotions and senses, but also to draw them in, excite them, keep their attention, and leave them feeling satisfied. Adding images, even mediocre images, makes articles dramatically more
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For sources like journal articles where there's no need for explicit page numbers, it might be better to leave the full citation in the footnote instead of adding an extra layer of indirection to the "works cited" list at the bottom. If the markup for the citation is cluttering the article's source
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Okay here's one crumb: "From W. H. Smyth, Chelsea, England, August 20, 1842: Acknowledging bulletin No. 2, and forwarding his privately printed catalogue of Roman brass medals; also, specimens of impressions of the head of
Hipparchus, from the Poniatowski-gem, intended as a vignette illustration of
1593:
It sounds like the UK doesn't have entirely settled case law, but the clearest precedent applies a test of whether the photograph is "the author’s own intellectual creation", which I think would be hard to argue for a straight-on photograph of a coin with no other framing, arrangement, or context.
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Also, I was going to say that it doesn't even have any provenance, but that appears to be untrue: it is essentially the same as an image from a Greek postage stamp on
Hipparchus from 1965, commemorating the opening of the Eugenides Planetarium. That stamp is still under copyright. So either it's a
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try to scatter images throughout our presentation, not to the point of cluttering the page up, but enough to break up an intimidating wall of text. An article that does not have sufficient images is frankly always deficient, even if sometimes these inappropriately get a "GA" badge slapped on them.
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Fictional interpretations may be and often are seriously misleading. They say more about the beliefs of 19th-century engravers about the ancient Greeks than they do about the subjects themselves. That is why they should only be presented with sourced commentary in the body of an article, not as a
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Even if these are fictional interpretations, readers enjoy seeing how historical figures have been imagined, and articles are in my opinion significantly improved by the inclusion of some images sprinkled about, which attract attention and liven up our otherwise stodgy presentation. In my opinion
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My only question is whether we can get an image with a clear open license (or with a clear provenance as being photographed in a country where accurate and non-artistic photographic representation of non-copyrighted objects like ancient coins has been clearly determined to be non-copyrightable).
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Exactly. Putting an image like that into the lead injects factual trivia directly into readers' memories, bypassing their critical faculties. They may well see only that lead image and remember only that from the article. So it is crucial that what we present as the lead image have some basis in
1303:
An image with sourced commentary in a section about later perceptions of
Hipparchus would perform what you say. I would have no objection to other images there, with proper commentary, even the one with the telescope in ancient Alexandria (if commentary on that can be sourced). That is not the
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This image and the provenance you found for it should definitely be included in the article somewhere, possibly also with a textual description of its re-use in the 1965 postage stamp. I'm still not convinced that it's good as a lead image, but the caption helps. If we have a section on later
1267:
I think that the information we present to readers as trustworthy should in fact be trustworthy. That way we don't have to have high or low expectations of them, only of ourselves. If we don't present them an inaccurate image, we don't have to worry about whether some of them see through the
2659:(At this article and others. No need for a detailed explanation. If anyone disagrees with your specific choices they can start a discussion / suggest alternatives.) Feel free to copyedit, reorganize, etc. while you are at it; this article could use some amount of general cleanup. –
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When possible, these images should be e.g. direct photographs of the subject, scans of their manuscripts, or the like. But when such material is not available, an artists' depiction with a caption explaining its source is dramatically better for the project than nothing at all. –
852:
This page is littered with references to Dennis
Rawlins and his work, or that of his friends and collaborators. DR is known for his fringe claims and his work has not passed the peer review of other astronomers, historians of astronomy, and historians of science in general.
2257:"Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see."
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The postage stamp image and the image we were using have the same lines; your book image does not. On the other hand, our image has lost the star at his chin, used in both the postage stamp and the book image. In any case, copyright is the least of the problems here.
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It simply allows the reader to see how people have imagined the historical figure in other historical periods. It’s obviously far worse than a source from antiquity or something, but as a reader more than an editor I quite like having an image at the top of articles.
1450:
The book image is a 19th century sketch of an ancient metal image, and it was clearly the inspiration for the stamp. (I agree the stamp image per se plausibly has some copyright concern.) I'll try to find the sources discussing its discovery. Here is a better scan:
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1106:, it's not an illustration taken from an American children's historical fantasy with made-up motivational quotes attributing American sensibilities to the subject. But it still provides absolutely no reliable information about Hipparchus to readers. —
1167:. All we have is not particularly creditworthy attribution given 500 years later. There's unfortunately a fair bit of dubious textual information in this article, which does not stick closely to the consensus claims of modern expert historians. –
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Even if it is a fraud, the Greek government fell for it. That alone, in my opinion, should be enough for it to have encyclopedic value and a higher resolution scan of it would be a good leading image. That’s just what I think.
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What even is he holding and why isn't it an astrolabe? And when is he supposed to have traveled to Giza? See "seriously misleading", above. Do we have scholarly commentary on this image, or just the book it was taken from?
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But we are meant to ignore all rules if we feel like ignoring them makes an article better. If some sort of consensus comes into existence here, I think we should reinstate an image, but I won’t change anything right now.
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imposing one style on an article with inconsistent citation styles (e.g., some of the citations in footnotes and others as parenthetical references): an improvement because it makes the citations easier to understand and
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1660:"Coin": not found in that book. It has the same depiction, but I don't see a description of its provenance. At least a scan from that would resolve the copyright and quality issues, but we can and should do better. —
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I plan to convert citations to citation templates, improve citations when possible, add ISBN, OCLC, URL & other applicable parameters such as, correct errors, & link shortened footnotes to full citations.
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I am fine with shortening. We should use at least the author year combination. If there is more than one reference with the same author/year, so in that case we would use hoffman2017, hoffman2017b, hoffman2017c,
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1931:, and may be based on an ancient cameo (I can't confirm that last point). The other 19th century depictions listed above could of course be added to the "Legacy" section of the article, which needs expanding.
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Yes, that's what I meant. The stamp is clearly copied from
Chambers, not from See's copy of chambers. Chambers says nothing that I can find about the image so there is nothing to impugn. Incidentally, "metal
1034:
whatever freely available portraits we can find of Hipparchus should be included, even if they were made by artists centuries after his death, and a few should be included nearish to the top of the page. –
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or some scan of Chambers's book. The caption should be clear that it's a 19th century conception, and the image description page should explain the details as clearly and accurately as we can make out.
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appealing and engaging. (Notice, for example, that all of the social media websites have switched to the long-parade-of-images format, and that magazines sell far more copies than scholarly monographs.)
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a stamp, some form of this image clearly has encyclopedic value. But we should replace the image currently on Commons with the best scan we can find and then clearly document the source. –
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that the portraits should all be removed or relegated to the bottom sections of the page. This change doesn't seem to me to reflect prevailing practice on other articles (as one example
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depictions of Hipparchus, we should also discuss the Roman coins, and the anachronism of showing him in Egypt with non-contemporary instruments, to the extent that we can source that. —
933:, meaning that it had been scraped off & the parchment reused for a a religious codex. Having recognized it as a palimpsest, researchers looking for earlier texts viewed it through
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lead image, presented in Knowledge's voice as "that is what the person really looked like". If there is something sourceable to say about these random engravings, we can do that.
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2383:. We can tell it's supposed to be him because the coin at his feet says 'ΙΠΠΑΡΧΟΣ' on it, but it's bizarrely included in an irrelevant section of the book. Update: I found the
1472:. That is still too recent to be an accurate image but at least it tells a story that we could include as text in the article, if we could find a usable image of such a coin. —
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format. But for a journal, we could just as easily put the citation in the footnote, reusing the footnote as need be, & to removed it altogether from the Sources section.
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That is a very bad excuse for putting even more dubious information in an image in the lead of an article without even any explanatory text explaining why it is so dubious. —
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Many of the "works cited" were not ever explicitly cited, so I removed them. It's plausible they would be useful to cite, or worth adding to the "further reading" section. –
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That makes some sense. If the citation has appeared in both the footnotes & Sources section, then I have been improving the Sources citation & put the footnote into
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I think we should use it as a lead image for now, but we should pull the best scan we can find to overwrite the current commons image which has unknown provenance, either
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I feel like the image I uploaded is better because it does not include the Egyptian elements common in modern representations of Hipparchus which are completely wrong.
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Dang, if I saw this in time I could’ve told you that. That’s the exact image from the exact same book I uploaded and used as the lead image before David reverted it.
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Greek postage stamps before 1970 are arguably in the public domain as works of the Greek government. Seems like there's some controversy and it hasn't been tested? –
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I think instead of using that low resolution scan from an unknown source, we should use a higher resolution scan from one of the books linked in this conversation.
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It would be nice indeed… as long as they’re not self-appointed “experts” like one in particular that I have named above and of whose material I have mostly removed.
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I think David means that he doesn't trust Webb's book about TJJ See in explaining the provenance of this image. That doesn't necessarily reflect on Chambers. –
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Does anyone have any opinions on whether an imaginary representation of Hipparchus should be used, or should it just be left without any image in the infobox?
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improving existing citations by adding missing information, such as by replacing bare URLs with full bibliographic citations: an improvement because it aids
1494:, which points out "none of these depictions are contemporary, all being of Imperial times when the cities issuing the coins were recalling past glories." —
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It clearly states that it's redrawn from someone else's drawing in Chambers' book, with additions from said plagiarist. As such it's not an improvement. —
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I didn't say this particular print should be put into the lead. I would recommend restoring the wood block which was there for a long time previously. –
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In other words, you think readers are too stupid to read and understand captions, but you expect them to patiently sit through a giant wall of text. –
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Gysembergh, Victor; J. Williams, Peter; Zingg, Emanuel (2022-10-18). "New evidence for Hipparchus' Star Catalogue revealed by multispectral imaging".
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There are shortened footnotes & full citations, but the shortened footnotes are unlinked to these citations. The guide on how to do this is at
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do you mind making the reference names a bit shorter? "hoffmann" or "hoffmann2018" is fine, it doesn't have to be "Hoffmann 2018 pp. 281–281". –
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I don’t have the time or knowledge to verify all the claims attached to his name on this page. I’m hoping someone will do it sooner than later.
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then that's definitely not "ancient" (I wonder where See/Webb came up with the "fished out of the sea" story), but still kind of interesting. –
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Bowen A.C., Goldstein B.R. (1991). "Hipparchus' Treatment of Early Greek Astronomy: The Case of Eudoxus and the Length of Daytime Author(s)".
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Because it claims to be based on an ancient artifact. But if that man is known to be a less than reliable source, then maybe it isn’t.
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I am back at work, so there is limited amount of editing that I can do during the day, so if you wish to make the changes, go ahead.
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It's an essay which represents the opinions of multiple Wikipedians. Exactly as I says when I wrote "not just my personal opinions".
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Apparently there are actually Roman coins from Nicaea from only several hundred years after the time of Hipparchus, depicting him
2491:"... Dans le champ de cette pierre on voit une étoile et en beaux caractères le nom du sujet.
2466:, I'm now reasonably convinced that Smyth's gem was one; a (real) fake antique, matching Poniatowski's description of one. See:
2263:, that is a high-quality reference work, and a portrait is what one would naturally/appropriately expect to see on a biography.
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2007:, so it's at least that old. Either way, it seems to me a more neutral representation than the Victorian ones mentioned above.
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Do you have any objection to the representation taken from a Greek stamp? This includes no anachronisms as far as I can see.
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says not to upload them to commons unless/until this is resolved or they fall out of the stricter life+70 copyright window. —
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fact. Instead, you want to present to them something that is entirely fiction. That is a wholly unencyclopedic thing to do. —
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is an essay which reflects the (controversial) opinion of a few Wikipedians, not representative of any site-wide consensus. –
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Still waiting for a cleanup… I’ll start one myself… It’s sad that this page doesn’t attract real historians of astronomy…
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2003:) 07:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC) There is a Renaissance (judging by the style) version of the same or a very similar likeness
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content on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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has a 17th century portrait at the top), or Knowledge consensus, and in my opinion it does a disservice to readers.
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Drop the part about the 'antique cameo' which seems to be a made up story, and replace with 'possibly based on a
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Okay, I see, both the sketch and the stamp were depictions of the same ancient metal coin. Here's from Chambers:
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of some carved stone depiction of Hipparchus, possibly from the early 19th century. See the discussion above. –
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copyvio, or both it and the stamp come from a common earlier source which is unknown to us. Any idea which? —
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I am using "Reply" instead of "edit source", so hopefully that should prevent unintentional insertion of
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Nice find. If you could upload a better scan of that, I think that would make for a good opening image
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Russo L. (1994). "The astronomy of Hipparchus and his time: A study based on pre-ptolemaic sources".
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There are a couple of citation templates that generate an error or a warning. Users who have have a
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Chambers's print, and paste that over the image currently in Commons which has unclear provenance. –
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In what sense is it any better? It is still a random 19th-century engraving, in a hagiography of a
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891:. I wonder if any experts can be found to check up on what is here or suggest additions/changes. –
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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What information does it provide to readers? How much of that information can be relied on? —
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I'm going to try to make a composite image of 4–5 coins showing Hipparchus on the reverse. –
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File:Astronomy; the allegorical titlepage to Tabulae frisicae lun Wellcome V0024826.jpg
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File:Astronomy; the allegorical titlepage to frisicae lunae-solar Wellcome V0024840.jpg
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markup problems: an improvement because it helps the citations to be parsed correctly;
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fixing errors in citation coding, including incorrectly used template parameters, and
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is better. At least it actually claims to be a drawing of a depiction from antiquity.
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An ancient star map being credited to Hipparchus was discovered as a document in a
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Nadal R., Brunet J.P. (1984). "Le "Commentaire" d'Hipparque. I. La sphère mobile.
2826:ПОΙΚΙΛΜΑ. Studi in onore di Michelle R. Cataudella in occasione del 60° compleanno
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instead since See’s version might just be a copy claiming to be based on a cameo.
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Oh I missed these comments until just now. Those might be a better lead image. –
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Sidoli N. (2004). "Hipparchus and the Ancient Metrical Methods on the Sphere".
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to generate citations, so that is from where the "Hoffmann 2018 p." originates.
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There is are problems an inconsistencies with the citations in this article.
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That looks good, I think that should also be added to the article somewhere.
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Bianchetti S. (2001). "Dall’astronomia alla cartografia: Ipparco di Nicea".
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19th century engraving supposedly based on an antique cameo of Hipparchus
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https://archive.org/details/briefbiographypo00webbrich/page/n326/mode/1up
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https://archive.org/details/briefbiographypo00webbrich/page/n326/mode/1up
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https://archive.org/details/cycleofcelestial02smytrich/page/n10/mode/1up
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with a clear name and then insert the footnote into the text using the
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names with conventional ones, such as "Einstein-1905" instead of ":27".
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Two more possible images to include (cropped) somewhere on this page:
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One last note. This impression was used first in Smyth's (1844) book
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Duke D.W. (2002). "Associations between the ancient star catalogs".
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Wolff M. (1989). "Hipparchus and the Stoic Theory of Motion". In
2869:
Rawlins D. (1982). An Investigation of the Ancient Star Catalog.
2907:. Ed. J. Barnes & M. Mignucci. Napoli: Bibliopolis: 346–419.
1905:
At least it's not the one with the telescope in ancient Egypt. —
2893:
Swerdlow N.M. (1969). "Hipparchus on the distance of the sun."
2078:
https://archive.org/details/handbookofdescri03chamuoft/page/n7/
2041:
And regarding its merits as a lead image what is your opinion?
1780:
You are right. Sorry for misunderstanding about the material. –
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https://archive.org/details/handbookofdescri03chamuoft/page/n7/
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Unknown-importance biography (science and academia) articles
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I think that looks great. We should go ahead and put it in.
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https://books.google.com/books?id=cNdRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA258
1371:
https://books.google.com/books?id=CoE-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA161
2293:
I added a footnote and uploaded a crop of a better scan. –
1923:
I propose restoring the previously established lead image
1545:
with a clearer picture of seated Hipparchus on the back. –
577:, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
1961:
Here's another depiction of Hipparchus from a 1559 book,
2439:
https://archive.org/details/b24873986/page/n348/mode/1up
2021:
Your "Renaissance" likeness is a 19th century sketch by
1963:
http://www.sites.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/hipparchuslrg.jpg
2871:
Proceedings of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific
1132:
which was described as a representation of Hipparchus
1486:
The existence of these coins is briefly mentioned in
789:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
684:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
464:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2182:
2156:
2126:
2107:
2251:That looks like an improvement on the former. Per
1720:for the tourist trade in the early 19th century. —
2956:B-Class biography (science and academia) articles
2833:Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society
1981:, also ahistorical but better than a telescope. —
1520:Though it's a bit hard to make out details from
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2726:markup, it's possible to move it down into the
2696:
2589:.citation-comment {display: inline !important;}
1050:Also, it's not just my personal opinion. See
584:History of Science Collaboration of the Month
8:
2986:B-Class Astronomy articles of Top-importance
2489:
1369:The postage stamp was apparently modeled on
379:, which collaborates on articles related to
3011:High-importance history of science articles
2374:nice high-resolution 19th century engraving
1577:Commons:Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs
1522:https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/rev/180336/high
1068:What you are linking to in your misleading
2941:Knowledge level-4 vital articles in People
2843:Die sieben Klimata und die πολεις επισημοι
2580:Most citations use templates, some do not.
2115:
2104:
1373:of which I'll try to find a better scan. –
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569:, an attempt to improve and organize the
2966:Science and academia work group articles
2462:In case people aren't following over at
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3016:WikiProject History of Science articles
2604:WP:CITEVAR#Generally considered helpful
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2557:Lapis Lazuli at the Fitzwilliam museum
2256:
1871:. If the original object was really a
1632:I don't think that's the right link. —
2861:Archive for History of Exact Sciences
2828:. La Spezia: Agorà Edizioni: 145–156.
2816:Archive for History of Exact Sciences
2810:Here is a list of sources I took out
2259:If there is an image emblazoned on a
7:
2888:Journal for the History of Astronomy
2469:"Head of Hipparchus", CARC (Oxford):
963:Journal for the History of Astronomy
783:This article is within the scope of
678:This article is within the scope of
458:This article is within the scope of
373:This article is within the scope of
262:This article is within the scope of
3041:WikiProject Greece general articles
3006:B-Class history of science articles
1674:You’re right, I think the one here
937:& found the astronomical work.
313:the science and academia work group
23:for discussing improvements to the
3026:High-priority mathematics articles
2996:High-importance astrology articles
2931:Knowledge vital articles in People
2072:I think we should use a scan from
1927:, which was used on a Greek stamp
14:
2981:Top-importance Astronomy articles
1351:Commons:Category:Stamps of Greece
969:(4). SAGE Publications: 383–393.
698:Knowledge:WikiProject Mathematics
2946:B-Class vital articles in People
2926:Knowledge level-4 vital articles
2555:that this carved (16th century)
2516:images depicting or linked from
1572:There's a discussion on this at
1268:inaccuracies and others don't. —
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2417:: Where'd you find the scan of
823:This article has been rated as
718:This article has been rated as
613:This article has been rated as
498:This article has been rated as
478:Knowledge:WikiProject Astrology
409:This article has been rated as
389:Knowledge:WikiProject Astronomy
286:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
3036:High-importance Greek articles
3001:WikiProject Astrology articles
2971:WikiProject Biography articles
2936:B-Class level-4 vital articles
1349:It's apparently under debate.
581:. You can also help with the
566:History of Science WikiProject
481:Template:WikiProject Astrology
392:Template:WikiProject Astronomy
289:Template:WikiProject Biography
202:It is of interest to multiple
1:
2806:20:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
2794:Thinned "works cited" section
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2758:20:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
2721:15:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
2683:06:04, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
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2651:16:54, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
2538:17:06, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
2160:
2130:
925:Discovery of ancient star map
797:and see a list of open tasks.
692:and see a list of open tasks.
472:and see a list of open tasks.
310:This article is supported by
42:Put new text under old text.
3046:All WikiProject Greece pages
3021:B-Class mathematics articles
1865:A Cycle of Celestial Objects
1492:10.1016/0315-0860(79)90030-2
1128:We may also want to include
998:21:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
803:Knowledge:WikiProject Greece
563:This article is part of the
274:contribute to the discussion
2567:15:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
2559:may represent Hipparchus. –
806:Template:WikiProject Greece
599:history of science articles
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2991:B-Class astrology articles
2976:B-Class Astronomy articles
2951:B-Class biography articles
1977:With what appears to be a
942:Turner, Ben (2022-10-21).
915:01:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
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619:project's importance scale
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2596:Help:Shortened footnotes
2591:will see these warnings.
2376:of a seated Hipparchus,
724:project's priority scale
1130:this 19th century print
681:WikiProject Mathematics
3031:B-Class Greek articles
2921:B-Class vital articles
2905:Matter and Metaphysics
2820:(Author's draft here.)
306:
75:avoid personal attacks
2850:Atlas of the Universe
2841:Honigmann E. (1929).
2261:handbook of astronomy
1646:Scroll down one page
935:multispectral imaging
461:WikiProject Astrology
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189:level-4 vital article
136:Auto-archiving period
100:Neutral point of view
2694:Incidentally, I use
1401:purported plagiarist
848:Scientific consensus
704:mathematics articles
228:Science and Academia
105:No original research
2878:Vistas in Astronomy
2587:file with the line
2572:Improving citations
2419:File:Hipparchus.jpg
2381:Museum of Antiquity
2177:(modern-day Greece)
2144:Kingdom of Bithynia
1070:appeal to authority
2602:Among the list at
2166:BC (around age 70)
1003:Opinions on images
786:WikiProject Greece
673:Mathematics portal
590:History of Science
571:history of science
527:History of Science
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395:Astronomy articles
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198:content assessment
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2848:Moore P. (1994).
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2387:, Figuier 1866. –
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2520:(Hipparchus)
2515:
2514:The Commons
2492:
2380:
2225:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
2149:İznik, Bursa
2147:(modern-day
2043:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
2009:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
1997:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
1933:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
1864:
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951:. Retrieved
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575:project page
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204:WikiProjects
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19:This is the
2750:template. –
2709: 
2547:More images
2265:Iskandar323
2183:Occupations
1847:his work."
1052:WP:PORTRAIT
907:CielProfond
889:CielProfond
875:CielProfond
860:CielProfond
695:Mathematics
686:mathematics
642:Mathematics
31:not a forum
2915:Categories
2900:: 287–305.
2890:35: 71–84.
2866:: 201–236.
2838:: 233–254.
2731:references
2699:.toolforge
2657:Go for it!
2585:common.css
2372:Here is a
2200:Geographer
2190:Astronomer
2109:Hipparchus
1223:We should
1102:At least,
953:2022-10-21
931:palimpsest
579:discussion
25:Hipparchus
2895:Centaurus
2883:: 207–248
2800:jacobolus
2752:jacobolus
2677:jacobolus
2661:jacobolus
2561:jacobolus
2504:jacobolus
2493:Améthyste
2435:Jacobolus
2423:jacobolus
2389:jacobolus
2362:jacobolus
2322:jacobolus
2295:jacobolus
2283:jacobolus
2151:, Turkey)
2062:jacobolus
2031:jacobolus
1967:jacobolus
1877:jacobolus
1853:jacobolus
1808:jacobolus
1789:jacobolus
1782:jacobolus
1751:jacobolus
1709:jacobolus
1622:jacobolus
1596:jacobolus
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1526:jacobolus
1510:jacobolus
1457:jacobolus
1375:jacobolus
1339:jacobolus
1257:jacobolus
1230:jacobolus
1195:jacobolus
1169:jacobolus
1165:astrolabe
1138:jacobolus
1104:this time
1074:jacobolus
1036:jacobolus
982:0021-8286
893:jacobolus
475:Astrology
466:Astrology
438:Astrology
386:Astronomy
381:Astronomy
337:Astronomy
283:Biography
223:Biography
192:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2774:Peaceray
2738:refs=...
2713:Peaceray
2673:Peaceray
2643:Peaceray
2616:link rot
2530:Peaceray
2471:1839-881
2057:this one
1979:quadrant
990:Peaceray
140:365 days
123:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2856:): 225.
2518:Q159905
2023:TJJ See
827:on the
722:on the
617:on the
502:on the
413:on the
194:B-class
2836:135(2)
2170:Rhodes
2140:Nicaea
1225:always
1028:Euclid
800:Greece
791:Greece
747:Greece
200:scale.
2697:citer
2622:edit;
2606:are:
2486:p. 52
1764:cameo
181:This
84:Seek
2881:38.2
2778:talk
2717:talk
2701:.org
2688:etc.
2647:talk
2553:here
2534:talk
2525:here
2446:talk
2405:talk
2312:talk
2269:talk
2243:talk
2229:talk
2157:Died
2127:Born
2086:talk
2047:talk
2013:talk
2001:talk
1987:talk
1951:talk
1937:talk
1911:talk
1897:talk
1772:talk
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994:talk
979:ISSN
911:talk
879:talk
864:talk
819:High
714:High
609:High
494:High
272:and
73:and
2803:(t)
2767:sfn
2755:(t)
2680:(t)
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2495:."
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405:Top
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2770:}}
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226::
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132:2
128:1
125::
58:.
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