1337:, another friend of the king that did not end up so well. Compare "Abbey body identified as gay lover of Edward II" and "A mutilated body found in an abbey graveyard has been identified as that of a notorious medieval villain rumoured to have been the gay lover of Edward II". You can clearly conclude that the second sentence, just a rumor, turned into the proof Hugh was the gay lover of Edward (this is how history is distorted and fabricated, just like for the way Edward II was killed (a story that emerged decades after his death and that is likely invented to disparage the king for the convenience of somebody).
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disembowelled and then quartered before his head was displayed on London Bridge". In addition I must say Laura Clout does not qualify herself by saying what her title or specialty is and what is the source that would label Hugh as a gay person. All I see is "Miss Lewis, a biological anthropologist at the
University of Reading" which is not even related to Hugh's sexual orientation but just to the way Hugh was beheaded and cut into pieces. The argument of the Telegraph sounds similar to the story of
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As an aside, "sodomy", in medieval
England, did not have exclusively homosexual connotations. It meant any form of illict sexual intercourse. At this stage, it would have been unusual for a homosexual to be executed or castrated, and more likely, he would have been required to perform a penance.
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You can either say "Thomas Becket" or "Thomas à Becket" but not "Thomas a Becket". Phonetic signs are not an option given to the discretion of the writer. Yes: whether
Despenser or Becket made the list really does not matter and it's totally irrelevant to this article. Similarly, we could say that
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Hugh le
Despenser is certainly how I know him and come across him, and I assume it is commonname. But looking around, there seems to be an uptick in recent books that opt to drop the "le", so I am not sure how dominant it is anymore (but I think that's across all Despensers). I'm sticking with
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Although some writers, such as Alison Weir, have speculated that De
Spenser was castrated because of his "orientation", in fact, castration was usually practised on convicted tratiors, such as William Wallace. It was not mentioned in the judgement of Sir William Trussell, but it would have been
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Bruce (English) which does not make any sense. Hugh le
Despenser has a similar issue. I think the title should be "Hugh le Despenser (Younger)" or "Hugh Despenser (Younger)". The additional "the Younger" was not part of his name. It just happened to be the younger of the two Hugh le Despenser.
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Considering the fact this article provides two distinct descriptions of the execution, I would say that Laura Clout's article from 2008 is inconsistent with what is in this article, primarily because she merges two modes of execution by saying "He was hanged and, still conscious, castrated,
984:. That he is called "the younger Despenser" in running text does not mean he is ever called "Hugh the younger Despenser," which is very strange. One might call John Quincy Adams "the younger Adams" in certain contexts, but that doesn't mean our article on him should be called
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The title debate started in 2008 and went on until 2015. As of now, 2021, the title is "Hugh
Despenser the Younger" and the introduction says "Hugh le Despenser ... also referred to as "the Younger Despenser"". It doesn't make any sense and it's inconsistent.
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Well, of 12 le
Dispencers I saw only one named insonsistently. I missed another one, sorry, but the consistency argument is still strong. It terms of name usage, to my uneducated search it seems that the frequencies of both versions are about the same.
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The article states that the method of hanging, drawing, and quartering usually did not involve castration, which is incorrect. Even
Knowledge’s own page on that method of execution specifically mentions emasculation as part of the process.
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This entry was not signed or dated so it's not clear when it was written. Also, I do not see the need of capitalizing of several keywords (this is not the German
Knowledge). The list mentioned above does not exist as of July of
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That's crazy, don't change facts and history for wiki. Why would Froissart lie about the execution? The softer version of the execution might well be made to soften the story, for same purposes you describe here.
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The article claims that "There was even a bizarre plot to kill Hugh by sticking pins in a wax likeness of him". Sounds a lot like voodoo, an African tradition clearly out of place in England of the 14th century.
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Yes we care what scholarsip uses, but in Knowledge we have other criteria, such as the most common use. Please start the discussion about "le" in the appropriate forum to see whether we have to get rid of it.
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Despenser expert Julie Frusher has identified another source for the castration, and writes that although castration was not listed as an official punishment, it had been used on earlier traitors such as
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sodomites were dealt with in the ecclesiastical courts. So it is quite possible that "his genitals sliced off and burned" but it would not have been as legal part of the punishment for alleged sodomy. --
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Hugh appears on the list of Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual people, and the link to that list appears at the bottom of the article, but no mention is made of his being Gay or Bisexual in the article.
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There is also little evidence that the relationship was sexual, and there is nothing in Edward II life to assume that he was homosexual, he fathered a number of children outside of marriage.
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Well his name was Hugh le Despenser, not Hugh Despenser. In historically literature he is often called "the younger Despenser". Why? Because historians are an idiosyncratic bunch.
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Should the box on the top right mention both modes of execution, including the castration which is equally plausible and the one typically used in narrated documentaries?
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The raw violence of Hugh's death is not suitable reading material for children. The vivid description should be softened for the general audience of an encyclopedia.
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Inclusion of this information seems non-encyclopedic to me. St Thomas a Becket also made this list but no one (quite rightly) added that fact to his article.
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That's a pity. I had a lot of fun describing De Spenser's execution in graphic detail. In my experience, children love that sort of thing.
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This post is just for information on why the trial for treason probably would not have included charges of sodomy. Before the passing of the
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who, apparently, as explained in this article, if I interpreted correctly, relied on the account of Jean le Bel (Froissart's
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I think you'll find pin-sticking magic goes way back before, and further afield, than voodoo. It needs refing though.
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We care about using the name scholarship uses. As for consistency, we are much further form it than you think. See
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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for "Hugh the younger Despenser". Google Books shows 386 to seven. I think a change of title may be justified.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110928130346/http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Despencer1295.htm
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assumed that it would be carried out. In this case, we can be reasonably sure that Froissart was correct.
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This article mentions "contemporary accounts" that do not include castration, unlike the account of
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and was a plausible punishment for Despenser, even absent the charges of sexual or amorous deviancy.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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and the use of "le" is very inconsistent. Do not trust the links as presented on the dab pages.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Despenser the Younger"? It would appear his forebears and offspring were known as le Despencer.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20160303173959/http://patp.us/genealogy/bio/spencer.aspx
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In 2006, he was selected by BBC History Magazine as the 14th century's worst Briton.
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If this is the same family as the famous Spencers, could this be detailed?
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I thought by now the article title would be Hugh_le_Despenser_the_Younger.
1294:? What makes the website www.hughdespenser.com a reliable publisher? --
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or Robert de Bruys (Norman French) was warped into an idiotic Robert
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http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/Despencer1295.htm
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If this claim is going to stick, it needs a real academic source.
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nobody cares about a list of fastest or slowest cars either.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Hugh on the list of gay, lesbian and bisexual people
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19:This is the
1748:Jean le Bel
1702:Staszek Lem
1669:Staszek Lem
1606:Staszek Lem
1569:Staszek Lem
1515:move review
1221:—Preceding
1156:—Preceding
860:—Preceding
730:Structure:
458:Middle Ages
405:Middle Ages
210:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1796:Categories
1740:Chronicles
1591:Rreagan007
1467:Report bug
1283:2010-06-30
912:Top.Squark
1773:Execution
1647:Despenser
1645:and also
1643:Despencer
1626:Walrasiad
1450:this tool
1443:this tool
1331:Edward II
307:Biography
239:Biography
208:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1483:Valetude
1456:Cheers.—
1274:Citing:
1223:unsigned
1178:Dude0853
1158:unsigned
964:Dsmdgold
874:contribs
866:Zekedunn
862:unsigned
691:criteria
601:Medieval
597:European
244:Military
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1621:Support
1370:my edit
1102:Nitpyck
1012:40 hits
926:Johnbod
664:C-class
605:C‑class
593:British
485:on the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1639:Oppose
1583:Oppose
1542:buidhe
1315:Mangoe
1021:Iain99
990:john k
949:john k
216:scale.
126:Google
1760:ICE77
1687:Srnec
1651:Srnec
1343:ICE77
1122:ICE77
1080:ICE77
980:Then
889:ICE77
883:2021.
197:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1784:talk
1764:talk
1706:talk
1691:talk
1683:here
1673:talk
1665:ODNB
1655:talk
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1333:and
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1016:none
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296:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1424:RfC
1394:to
1384:to
1296:PBS
1202:PBS
1073:the
559:???
477:Mid
176:TWL
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