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she deplored the
British Medical Association's proposal for gender self-ID without medical diagnosis. Willoughby said, 'If you go down that route, you could have somebody with a full hipster beard and no anatomical changes whatsoever and clicks his fingers and says he's a woman and starts using areas used by women. Then there starts to be problems and we get into the whole JK Rowling issues.' She felt that trans status should be reserved for people like her 'who go on a medical pathway and fit in with the world as it is.' Oddly, although she has lately called the LGB Alliance a 'hate group', she took the same view of the BMA proposal that the LGBA took, as detailed in the same article.
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week she worked as a PR woman in
Newcastle, then returned to the family home in Cumbria as Jonathan to be a father to her teenage son. She said: âI didnât want to lose my family and friends. What I did was I decided to split my life in two. I spent weekends as Jonathan in one city and I lived as the real me in Newcastle." India finally told her son, then 16, in a letter she handed to him after a meal out. Now living as a single mum, she recalled: âHe said, âIt changes nothing. Youâre still my parent.â He and his mother have been so supportive and ITV have been fantastic.â'
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relevant. Given that her pre-transition career is the subject of only one sentence, I question whether, had she not transitioned, there would be an article on her at all. As such, given her notability has pretty clearly increased since her transition, having her dead name appear so prominently in the
Article Lead and in the biography box seems disproportionate. I apologise for not having made this case more clearly with my prior edits to this article
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Given this argument, which I consider convincing, I will undo the revision as of 21:17, 25 June 2021â, and remind
Redrose64 that persistent re-introduction of content that has been cogently argued to be in violation of Knowledge (XXG) policy without discussion or counter-argument is inappropriate at
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The Sun, possibly not considered RS, did carry an interesting 2018 article about
Willoughby which did not go much into 'early life' but did discuss the transition phase. 'India admits she struggled with telling her family and young son - and instead spent five years leading a double life. During the
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The Daily Mail, which is for some reason ruled non-RS by
Knowledge (XXG) (it may be editorially bonkers at times, but no more so than papers like the Guardian, the Telegraph or the New York Times, which are RS), reported in September 2020 an interview with Willoughby on ITV's This Morning in which
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Willoughby has only become notable due to transition, and she does not seem to mind making reference to her old name, her ex-wife or her now grown-up son, though all of those are presently excluded from the Wiki article. Concealing her previous existence tends to eliminate the one thing that makes
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In respect of Wiki's current policy on using trans people's dead names, (to not do so unless the person's pre-transition work is notable in its own right), I have edited this article to remove references to her former name and gender identity aside from in the single line in which it is explicitly
841:, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's
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I have no idea why she might have sent it to you, but uploading anybody's passport would be an incredibly bad idea. That is private information of a sort that could be abused for identity theft. Disclosing it could get you into serious trouble. Anyway, please read
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If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing
857:; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the
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pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this
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1587:"India Willoughby... : 'I'd just like to say to all the people who are trans, love you to bits, but I'm actually transexual. There's a slight difference there, it's a medical condition and I had to transition.
1343:âIndia Willoughby is considered by many as the "go-go yass queen slay" and will continue to rule the LGBTQ+ kingdom she has built in the last few years in challenge to the evil, transphobic witch JK Rowlingâ
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I can't argue with following stated style - how do we change the style? This is not in keeping with
Knowledge (XXG) style outside of this narrow area and it requires the suppression of relevant information.
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1543:. Your welcome to read any of the above sections, or find some evidence that she would have been notable before she came out. For my money the fact that she only got a Knowledge (XXG) page
1094:, two of them predate her "returning to ITV as India", and neither of those are either reliable or significant. She is not notable for her pre-transition work. We should therefore remove.--
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source supporting her being born in London? If so, I agree that we should change it. If not, then probably we shouldnât be making any claim about where she was born at all. --
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Guess I'm forced to rely on my imagination to figure out how Ms. Willoughby would look... The same likely would likely hold true for most other readers of this article.
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That's
Wikidata and they say that they got it from Knowledge (XXG) so that just points round in a big dumb circle, proving nothing. We need something that meets
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Or, if you don't include the information (that 'she' was born a boy, and called
Jonathan by his parents) there, then include it somewhere on the page.
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Redrose64 is simply reminding people that trying to seed
Knowledge (XXG) with non-verified sexual-political statements is a breach of Knowledge (XXG)
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8743217/India-Willoughby-blasts-BMA-calls-allow-people-legally-change-gender-without-medical-diagnosis.html
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
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it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc), even in quotations,
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1850:(Note: I've reformatted the comment above to take out the section headings. This does not affect the substance of what is being requested.)
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https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/reality-tv/a847690/celebrity-big-brother-india-willoughby-criticised-dismissing-transgender-people-lorraine/
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
309:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
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If there is a photo of her on Wikimedia commons or from some other appropriate source you think would be suitable, then please add it.
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Change 'India Scarlett Willoughby (born 2 September 1965)' to 'India Scarlett Willoughby (born Jonathan Willoughby 2 September 1965)'
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i have a copy of her passport that she sent to me that shows her place of birth as london. but it won't let me attach it as proof.
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Information is neutral. People lie about their age, but Knowledge (XXG) doesn't print the lie if the truth is known.
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The article currently reads as the latter, and would be better polaced in a gossip magazine than an encyclopaedia.
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https://www.thepinknews.com/2018/01/17/celebrity-big-brother-india-willoughby-quizzed-on-her-fear-of-drag-queens/
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2197801/india-willoughby-celebrity-big-brother-2018-evicted-transgender/
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Hm. Is that to indicate India Willoughby might not actually have said that on the ITV show? Verified at:
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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The nĂŠe is important. Stop trying to cover people's last by claiming "deadname" rights. Utter nonsense.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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We don't seem to have a reference for her place of birth at all at the moment. Do you have a
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Is this section appropriate? Seems potentially libellous or at least not remotely impartial
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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after she came out points to the fact that she likely wasn't notable under that name.
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account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days)
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otherwise it should be removed from Knowledge (XXG) and from Wikidata as unproven. --
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It would be good to get an RS reference but I think that tweet is good enough under
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I would add the detail but canât. Any reason why this can not be added? Thanks.
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and googling shows some similar claims from sources which I doubt are RS
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says that we need reliable sources, and presumably none are available. --
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since January 2018. Her article was created just over three months ago. â
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Are we sure that omitting her former name is correct application of
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If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under
317:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
1666:(Video from and of the Lorraine show; statement made after 01:30.)
1593:"Big Brother's India in new storm after Lorraine interview flops",
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Talk:India Willoughby#References to Willoughby's former name
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should be completely removed whenever they are encountered.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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this page has the information that she was born in london:
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Celebrity Big Brother (British series 21)#India Willoughby
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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124 Google results for ""Jonathan Willoughby" newsreader"
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Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity
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guideline because it contains material about one or more
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expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/india-willoughby-b5a771249/
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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All wiki artjcles have early life. Why not this one
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Gender identity
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2197:to match the early life section updated last week.
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/india-willoughby
1194:Probably the place to discuss this would be either
966:per nomination. Uncontroversial technical request.
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1783:Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2023 (2)
1014:. No further edits should be made to this section.
2284:Any reason why marriage in 1997 is not mentioned?
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1978:She claims on her twitter to be born in London
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2153:Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2023
2070:Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2023
1890:that support the change you want to be made.
1700:Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023
1358:Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2023
1196:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Biography
1118:best, by the rules that he himself has cited.
855:if the person was notable while using the name
1829:Willoughby was born in London and grew up in
1045:persistently remove the information, that is
8:
1923:to learn about the sorts of sources that we
1819:change: Willoughby was born and grew up in
1664:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN3yPXOg_2k
1041:Discuss this by all means - but you should
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887:The following is a closed discussion of a
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1138:accepted knowledge policy. Additionally,
2013:here's her linked in with the info too:
417:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject LGBT studies
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1309:- forget it. But you can read up at
906:The result of the move request was:
730:Warning: active arbitration remedies
675:This article is within the scope of
589:This article is within the scope of
484:This article is within the scope of
303:This article is within the scope of
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2364:Start-Class London-related articles
2339:Biography articles of living people
1086:. Treat the pre-notability name as
249:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
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1945:https://www.wikidata.org/Q68172526
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50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
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1180:(born Roy Harold Scherer Jr.)"
880:Requested move 12 December 2019
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391:This article is of interest to
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1468:But an article in the Express
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942:India Willoughby (journalist)
933:18:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
813:contentious topics procedures
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689:and see a list of open tasks.
603:and see a list of open tasks.
498:and see a list of open tasks.
193:biographies of living persons
42:Put new text under old text.
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1583:Transgender? Or transsexual?
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1445:06:54, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
1415:03:16, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
744:You must be logged-in to an
315:contribute to the discussion
2183:to reactivate your request.
2171:has been answered. Set the
2100:to reactivate your request.
2088:has been answered. Set the
1813:to reactivate your request.
1801:has been answered. Set the
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1718:has been answered. Set the
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507:Template:WikiProject London
205:must be removed immediately
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2303:For a start - and this is
2205:to reflect what is in the
1927:use on Knowledge (XXG). --
1516:Put back the original name
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801:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
756:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
746:autoconfirmed or confirmed
701:WikiProject Women articles
698:Template:WikiProject Women
635:project's importance scale
530:project's importance scale
2354:Start-Class LGBT articles
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1564:Biography? Or publicity?
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815:before editing this page.
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
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1084:reliable sourcing exists
1004:Please do not modify it.
894:Please do not modify it.
809:normal editorial process
764:normal editorial process
395:WikiProject LGBT studies
2189:In the infobox, change
1074:under a former name (a
970:has been a redirect to
796:as a contentious topic.
510:London-related articles
2131:"change X to Y" format
1761:"change X to Y" format
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805:standards of behaviour
760:standards of behaviour
592:WikiProject Journalism
239:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
1432:or the above section
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407:or contribute to the
306:WikiProject Biography
243:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
100:Neutral point of view
1400:Information source:
105:No original research
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968:India Willoughby
946:India Willoughby
931:
896:
860:LGBT WikiProject
822:
784:
777:
726:
719:
703:
702:
699:
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481:
476:
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415:
388:
383:
382:
381:
372:
365:
364:
354:
347:
335:
334:
331:
328:
325:
311:join the project
300:
298:Biography portal
295:
294:
293:
284:
277:
276:
266:
259:
242:
236:
235:
227:
213:this noticeboard
185:
179:
178:
164:
95:Article policies
25:India Willoughby
16:
2414:
2413:
2409:
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2407:
2405:
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2329:
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2313:
2286:
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2220:
2176:
2172:
2161:
2155:
2135:reliable source
2122:
2093:
2089:
2078:
2072:
2034:
2032:
1886:please provide
1879:
1871:
1806:
1802:
1791:
1785:
1765:reliable source
1752:
1723:
1719:
1708:
1702:
1678:
1604:
1588:
1585:
1570:147.148.211.100
1566:
1544:
1518:
1508:
1498:
1493:
1490:
1485:
1453:
1421:
1381:
1377:
1366:
1360:
1338:
1315:
1313:if you like. --
1257:
1244:
1227:
1210:
1204:
1176:For instance: "
1095:
1051:
1023:
1018:
915:
892:
882:
870:BLP noticeboard
867:people, to the
830:gender identity
803:, any expected
758:, any expected
751:
700:
697:
694:
691:
690:
614:
611:
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605:
604:
582:
577:
575:
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509:
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477:
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384:
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332:
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121:
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91:
61:
12:
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5:
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2376:
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2327:
2326:
2285:
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2250:
2247:
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2184:
2165:
2154:
2151:
2150:
2149:
2133:and provide a
2106:please change
2102:
2101:
2082:
2071:
2068:
2067:
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2064:
2063:
2062:
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2030:
2029:
2028:
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1784:
1781:
1780:
1779:
1763:and provide a
1732:
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1696:
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1674:
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1668:
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1628:100.36.106.199
1600:
1584:
1581:
1565:
1562:
1561:
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1522:174.95.180.173
1517:
1514:
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1452:
1449:
1448:
1447:
1390:
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1370:
1359:
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1345:185.248.106.88
1337:
1334:
1333:
1332:
1331:
1330:
1329:
1328:
1281:
1277:
1226:
1223:
1222:
1221:
1220:
1219:
1174:
1171:
1168:
1167:
1166:
1165:
1164:
1163:
1162:
1022:
1019:
1017:
1016:
1000:requested move
994:
993:
992:
938:
936:
904:
903:
889:requested move
883:
881:
878:
875:
874:
825:
818:
817:
785:
773:
772:
750:
749:
741:
727:
715:
714:
711:
710:
707:
706:
704:
687:the discussion
673:
661:
660:
655:
643:
642:
639:
638:
631:Low-importance
627:
621:
620:
618:
601:the discussion
588:
587:
571:
559:
558:
556:Lowâimportance
550:
538:
537:
534:
533:
526:Low-importance
522:
516:
515:
513:
496:the discussion
483:
482:
466:
454:
453:
451:Lowâimportance
445:
433:
432:
429:
428:
426:
390:
389:
373:
361:
360:
355:
343:
342:
339:
338:
336:
302:
301:
285:
273:
272:
267:
255:
254:
248:
237:
223:
222:
218:this help page
202:poorly sourced
188:
181:
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118:
117:
113:
112:
107:
102:
93:
92:
90:
89:
82:
77:
68:
62:
60:
59:
48:
39:
38:
35:
34:
28:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
2411:
2400:
2397:
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2240:
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2228:
2219:
2218:
2217:
2216:
2212:
2208:
2203:
2198:
2195:
2190:
2182:
2179:parameter to
2170:
2166:
2159:
2158:
2152:
2148:
2144:
2140:
2136:
2132:
2128:
2120:
2119:
2118:
2117:
2113:
2109:
2099:
2096:parameter to
2087:
2083:
2076:
2075:
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2045:
2040:
2031:
2027:
2023:
2019:
2016:
2012:
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1994:
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1907:
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1897:
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1834:
1832:
1827:
1824:
1822:
1812:
1809:parameter to
1800:
1796:
1789:
1788:
1782:
1778:
1774:
1770:
1766:
1762:
1758:
1750:
1749:
1748:
1747:
1743:
1739:
1729:
1726:parameter to
1717:
1713:
1706:
1705:
1699:
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1512:
1509:
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1501:
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1488:
1481:
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1474:
1471:suggests she
1470:
1465:
1460:
1458:
1450:
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1442:
1438:
1435:
1431:
1427:
1419:
1418:
1417:
1416:
1412:
1408:
1405:
1401:
1398:
1395:
1387:
1384:parameter to
1375:
1371:
1364:
1363:
1357:
1355:
1354:
1350:
1346:
1341:
1335:
1327:
1323:
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1312:
1308:
1304:
1300:
1299:
1298:
1294:
1290:
1289:Khamba Tendal
1287:
1282:
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1276:
1271:
1270:
1269:
1265:
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1254:
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1243:
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1038:
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1033:
1029:
1015:
1013:
1009:
1005:
1001:
996:
995:
991:
987:
983:
979:
978:
977:Roman Spinner
973:
969:
965:
962:
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960:
959:
955:
951:
947:
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939:
935:
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832:
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728:
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721:
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688:
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680:
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671:
667:
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659:
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649:
636:
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623:
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619:
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569:
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531:
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517:
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489:
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480:
479:London portal
474:
469:
467:
464:
460:
459:
455:
449:
446:
443:
439:
427:
423:LGBT articles
410:
406:
402:
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387:
376:
374:
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366:
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359:
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353:
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316:
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170:
167:
163:
159:
155:
152:
149:
146:
143:
140:
137:
134:
131:
127:
124:
123:Find sources:
120:
119:
111:
110:Verifiability
108:
106:
103:
101:
98:
97:
96:
87:
83:
81:
78:
76:
72:
69:
67:
64:
63:
57:
53:
52:Learn to edit
49:
46:
41:
40:
37:
36:
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22:
18:
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2290:31.94.22.210
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2249:No portrait?
2226:
2204:
2199:
2196:
2191:
2188:
2180:
2169:edit request
2126:
2105:
2097:
2086:edit request
2038:
1997:WP:ABOUTSELF
1924:
1883:
1835:
1833:, Cumbria.
1828:
1825:
1818:
1810:
1799:edit request
1756:
1735:
1727:
1716:edit request
1684:
1683:
1675:
1624:WP:DAILYSTAR
1610:
1609:
1601:
1595:
1586:
1567:
1537:MOS:DEADNAME
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1467:
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1454:
1430:MOS:DEADNAME
1425:
1407:92.41.77.196
1402:
1399:
1396:
1393:
1385:
1374:edit request
1342:
1339:
1306:
1303:WP:DAILYMAIL
1280:her notable.
1228:
1211:
1133:
1107:
1102:
1097:
1079:
1042:
1024:
1003:
997:
976:
963:
940:
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787:
753:
740:
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676:
630:
590:
525:
485:
414:LGBT studies
405:project page
393:
392:
386:LGBTQ portal
358:LGBT studies
304:
251:WikiProjects
216:
204:
197:
191:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
2307:- you need
2270:GraziePrego
2044:DanielRigal
2001:DanielRigal
1966:DanielRigal
1929:DanielRigal
1859:DanielRigal
1823:, Cumbria.
1658:WP:PINKNEWS
1459:? It says
1451:Former name
1178:Rock Hudson
1152:Hubertgrove
1120:82.34.0.186
1028:82.34.0.186
1012:move review
899:move review
835:trans women
241:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
2333:Categories
2207:Drewwest75
2173:|answered=
2108:Drewwest75
2090:|answered=
2018:Drewwest75
1948:Drewwest75
1906:Drewwest75
1892:GoingBatty
1874:Drewwest75
1837:Drewwest75
1803:|answered=
1738:Drewwest75
1720:|answered=
1596:Daily Star
1378:|answered=
1247:Rustygecko
1231:Rustygecko
1225:Early Life
1135:summarizes
1047:disruptive
908:page moved
794:designated
606:Journalism
597:journalism
553:Journalism
409:discussion
2305:essential
2127:Not done:
1983:Lyndaship
1884:Not done:
1757:Not done:
1426:Not done:
1311:WP:THESUN
1305:. As for
1148:vandalism
1008:talk page
986:contribs)
847:singular
807:, or any
762:, or any
324:Biography
270:Biography
209:libellous
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2139:Cannolis
1831:Carlisle
1821:Carlisle
1769:Cannolis
1550:Cakelot1
1437:Cannolis
1251:Because
1205:Cakelot1
1182:Jhutzler
1144:nonsense
1076:deadname
1010:or in a
738:article:
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2255:Zakawer
1464:exists.
1307:The Sun
1082:even if
1072:notable
964:Support
950:Unreal7
633:on the
528:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
2316:rose64
2235:rose64
1318:rose64
1260:rose64
1253:WP:BLP
1146:, and
1054:rose64
865:living
843:latest
501:London
492:London
448:London
247:scale.
126:Google
2177:|ans=
2167:This
2094:|ans=
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1962:WP:RS
1921:WP:RS
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1336:Libel
1140:Libel
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982:(talk
912:WP:G6
692:Women
683:women
658:Women
401:LGBTQ
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2320:talk
2318:đš (
2311:. --
2294:talk
2274:talk
2259:talk
2239:talk
2237:đš (
2227:Done
2211:talk
2143:talk
2112:talk
2048:talk
2042:} --
2039:Done
2022:talk
2005:talk
1999:. --
1987:talk
1970:talk
1952:talk
1933:talk
1910:talk
1896:talk
1863:talk
1841:talk
1826:to:
1773:talk
1742:talk
1687:talk
1632:talk
1613:talk
1598:. â
1574:talk
1554:talk
1535:Per
1526:talk
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1491:avid
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1428:see
1411:talk
1349:talk
1322:talk
1320:đš (
1301:See
1293:talk
1264:talk
1262:đš (
1235:talk
1212:talk
1186:talk
1156:talk
1124:talk
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1103:chba
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1058:talk
1056:đš (
1049:. --
1032:talk
954:talk
928:ller
923:chba
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910:per
849:they
788:The
733:The
313:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2314:Red
2233:Red
2175:or
2092:or
1925:can
1805:or
1722:or
1473:was
1380:or
1316:Red
1258:Red
1208:âď¸
1198:or
1078:),
1052:Red
1043:not
625:Low
520:Low
198:BLP
176:TWL
2335::
2322:)
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2276:)
2261:)
2241:)
2230:--
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2181:no
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2114:)
2098:no
2050:)
2024:)
2007:)
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1972:)
1954:)
1935:)
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1811:no
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1728:no
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1528:)
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1386:no
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1142:,
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1002:.
984:â˘
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2292:(
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2020:(
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