3813:. In a correct application of said doctrine, the outcome should be a balance of positive and negative information concerning the subject; at the very least there should not be an overwhelming preponderance of negative information. To quote the policy: "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." At present the sole coverage of Iseman is in the context of the alleged controversy, which seems a perverse result. A clear majority of editors below believe that BLP1E has been satisfied (or, rather, that it does not apply here); said editors also point to the existence of pre-2008 sources on Iseman and the existence of information outside the campaign controversy. Given the non-libelous state of the article prior to its deletion and the lack of a complaint from the subject the result is to
3370:. In a correct application of said doctrine, the outcome should be a balance of positive and negative information concerning the subject; at the very least there should not be an overwhelming preponderance of negative information. To quote the policy: "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." At present the sole coverage of Iseman is in the context of the alleged controversy, which seems a perverse result. A clear majority of editors below believe that BLP1E has been satisfied (or, rather, that it does not apply here); said editors also point to the existence of pre-2008 sources on Iseman and the existence of information outside the campaign controversy. Given the non-libelous state of the article prior to its deletion and the lack of a complaint from the subject the result is to
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include the media controversy in the title. If it is determined that the New York Times falsified their information, then it would rise to a level of controversy that required a mention, don't you think? Right now the controversy has to do with the use of anonymous sources and whether it was politically motivated. But because, say, the Paula Jones controversy started in a conservative publication, should it be a part of the title? Now, please, in no way has this issue risen to the level of that, so the analogy is, at best, rough. But the same issue of the initial source of information is involved.
2763:. The first issue, "undue weight in the context of the individual," only applies to Iseman's page - that's the only place where this would be "in the context of the individual." If Iseman doesn't have a page, then the material is being presented in the context of the scandal. The second issue "redundancy and additional maintenance overhead" clearly supports a merger. The last part, "problems for our neutral point of view policy" seems to be what everyone is worried about. In this context the policy is explicitly talking about violating NPOV by
3168:. On user John254's first comment in this thread he made accusations about pro-merge/delete people trying to "injure reputations," now that user Eusebeus has made a good faith contribution, user John254 accuses both of us of "trying violate the core principles" of BLP. We might not agree on how to interpret policy, but no one here is "trying to violate" anything. I don't care how much experience you have as an editor, that crap is uncalled for. I can't speak for Eusebeus, but I am trying to improve wikipedia by preventing clutter, and the
2168:: "Knowledge (XXG) is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Knowledge (XXG) article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them." I'm not adamant about this issue, which is why I haven't raised it myself, but if it comes to a merge poll or another AfD, that's the way I would lean.
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bid for the presidency in 2000. Although the curry of the controversy focused on his romantic relationship with Vicki Iseman, a 33-year-old single woman, who worked for the lobby, and who was often tracked alongside McCain during his campaign in 2000. Though the controversy did harm McCain somewhat, the irony of this scandal was the timing of the issue, just when he had taken the GOP front seat in seeking the presidential nomination. Unknown sources of the Times questioned the reliability of the entire story.
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people can cite for keeping the article. She's a lobbyist, if anything it's her job to get close to her clients. If there is a negative slant, it's a very soft negative and not enough to justify adding her high school cheerleading, etc. B) In any case, I really feel you're misinterpreting the NPOV part of BLP: material worthy of inclusion should be presented in a neutral manner - and her involvement in the scandal is presented more or less neutrally. But I don't think even the
4044:. This article's had many names, but this was one of them. It was moved here: "02:22, April 20, 2008 SteveSims (talk | contribs) m (moved John McCain lobbyist controversy to John McCain lobbyist controversy (2008): to not diminish the Keating Five article)" However, I don't think there's a danger of confusing this minor flap with the Keating Five. In that case there were no lobbyists involved, really – Keating went directly to the senators and told them what he wanted.
3344:, or might give undue weight to negative material). However, it would be a bizarre misapplication of this policy provision to remove all favorable information concerning a living person from a biography, leaving an attack page comprised entirely of negative material, then claim that the favorable information couldn't be immediately restored because "The burden of evidence... rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material"
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Iseman so I will hold off on starting such a process until after the election. Hopefully that won't be necessary, and I urge you to reconsider your position so that we can get this thing settled much sooner. However your current understanding of the spirit of BLP and NPOV is not supported by the policy as written, and if it takes an AfD to settle that, then I'll be back here in
November to get the ball rolling on that process.
2587:@John254 IMO I'm a pretty responsible editor and think you're out of line to imply otherwise, and even more out of line to accuse me of trying to injure Vicki Iseman. When I first visited Iseman's page, it seemed to me to read more like a vanity page than anything else, so I decided to make some bold edits. Those edits were done in good faith and I would appreciate if you would refrain from making baseless accusations.
2858:'s suggestion is the kind of local talk page obstructionism that is unhelpful - finger-pointing & insinuation instead of actually doing anything to improve the article such that it does not make a mockery of our BLP principles. After all the grief to get BLP approved as policy, it is unaceptable that a few motivated editors feel they can engage locally to contravene its core principles. We can do better than that.
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2471:'s suggestion is doable, I don't think even that step is necessary. IMO you are misapplying the NPOV policy. By mentioning her factual involvement in this story we are not exhibiting bias. The facts themselves do not have a POV. I'm sure she's a very nice person, but it is not wikipedia's place to provide good press for people who have been in the news under less than ideal circumstances.
3285:) that our biographies should not pruriently focus on scandals in the lives of people they discuss -- the last thing we should do is provide an extensive treatment of scandals, because we think they're interesting, but ignore other well-sourced aspects of subject's lives by denigrating them as "clutter." Despite your contention to the contrary, there is a general consensus that
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really reflect both the acting parties. As far as the WaPo article goes, the triggering event for that article was the NY Times article and the WaPo article hasn't really been sucked into the "controversy" yet. Also, a rename of the article would allow this article to include TNR's article on the build up to NYT actually publishing the article. --
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with the innuendo about an extramarital affair included. The number of editors from other reputable news organizations that are coming out and saying they would not have published the article in its present state and the amount of inner turmoil that the NYT went through prior to publishing the article are important parts of the "controversy". --
2996:) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "
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publication. The spinmeisters making this about a "lobbyist controversy" want to imply that this is a substantive controversy ON McCain's part. It is not, at this point. So far, it's an example of shoddy journalism. Far be it from me to expect anything but liberal mob edits on
Knowledge (XXG), however. (And no, I'm not a McCain hack.) -
3583:. Even if the article provided a "balanced" discussion of the liberal view that Miss Bush's nudity was courageous and liberating, the conservative Christian view that the public nudity was a carnal sin, and everything in between, it would nonetheless be clear that the article's excessive focus on a single incident of nudity would
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candidate. McCain's relationship (friendly, romantic, whatever) with Iseman has been one of those "worst kept secrets" since 2000 and that it has also been known for years that some of McCain's closest associates and friends are lobbyists. But yes, it could be mentioned more in depth in the article, particularly in the lead. --
3769:. I suggest taking this back to AfD for a merge, or else to mediation cabal. This clearly falls within the ONEEVENT provision of BLP; suggestions to the contrary are baffling. So, let's get some more eyeballs on this and hopefully move beyond the highly -motivated uberprolixity of a few editors whose passion has been aroused.
2663:. To take an extreme example; say there's a some material about a really horrible crime; should we balance out this "negative" portrayal of the murderer/rapist/whatever with some information about how Stabby McGee volunteered at a pet shelter as a teenager? Conversely should we balance out the overwhelmingly positive tone of
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creation of what is essentially a personal website (or fansite) hosted on wikipedia. It's the notability and the ONEEVENT policies which should lead a reasonable person to clean up this page. More generally the overriding core principle of wikipedia: that material should be encyclopedic, is being slowly violated by this and
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information on Iseman indepedendent of the controversy. To argue that Iseman is no longer actively (i.e., no new news) in the media, then you are arguing for the deletion of thousands of articles; that shouldn't be the criteria. This page does no harm to the subject; instead it provides neutral information.
2646:"When reputable sources contradict one another, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that are most reliable and notable."
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I have to agree with you. (Though perhaps it's drawn few comments because very few people are interested in Iseman anymore?) Maybe, I'll have the energy to pursue an AfD later - but I promise to hold off until after the election. And who knows? Maybe the NYT will have something more to say about this
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most of the detail of this article is added to the merge target -- that is the purpose of a merge. If, as has been the case in all past similar discussion, the objective is to simply redirect this page, then you are arguing for the deletion of the text and that would be a loss: it provides background
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violations can occur as a result of biased selection of which well-sourced facts to include in an article. The claim that "Facts are not opinions, and recording the fact of a negative event's occurance is not the same thing as representing an anti-subject POV." is not supported by the
Knowledge (XXG)
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means. I contend that removing the material does not violate NPOV since there is no competing POV that would be corrected by leaving it in. Facts are not opinions, and recording the fact of a negative event's occurance is not the same thing as representing an anti-subject POV. I'm not suggesting that
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is only notable for one event (despite the comprehensive nature of press coverage concerning her), and that this putative limited notability therefore justifies removing all favorable information concerning her, leaving only coverage of the scandal in which she was involved, thereby creating the very
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Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a redirect or merge are usually the better
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And here's my response: Yes, I've (mostly) read it - but I am not proposing deletion, and find it strange to give so much weight to an inconclusive discussion. A) I also have to take issue with this assessment that the McCain thing reflects unfavourably on her. This seems to be the only justification
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was such a biography, deleted on the basis of vote-counting and a purely mechanical application of WP:BLP1E in a manner manifestly contrary to its purpose. Indeed, the deletion of this article itself constitutes a WP:BLP violation, since it removes almost all of our well sourced favorable information
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For McCain, the New York Times dropped this H-bomb, when in a front-page issue, the Times exposed McCain's scandalous role of supporting the Paxson
Communications (now Ion Media Networks) in a bid for a TV station in Pittsburgh with the FCC, while also taking financial donations from the lobby in his
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I strongly disagree. Watchlists work best if articles are about one topic, and one topic only. Merging related but distinct topics into a single article -- as is being suggested here -- is a disservice to readers. When related but distinct articles are merged readers who use watchlists no longer have
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The Vicki Iseman page has very little meat to it; her career and her bio are not notable except for her cameo appearance in this McCain controversy (or NYT controversy if you prefer to call it that). Nobody needs to know what high school she went to, what her extra-curricular activities were, who her
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This involved both the NYT and
Washington Post articles. It is a controversy -- I'm not to sure how it is POV -- it seems to be neutrally titled which doesn't require that it has no point of view. Someone else suggested "scandal" and that is clearly not neutral. That this is a controversy seems to be
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is intended to deal with the problem of editors scouring every possible source in search of scandal with which to fill biographies of people notable for entirely unrelated reasons. However, no policy can anticipate and correctly deal with every conceivable circumstance to which it may applied. Thus,
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is involved in some serious wikilawyering here, and none of user's arguments are new, all this being discussed recently in a 2nd DRV process (May 15 close). Seven days after the commencement of this discussion, I don't see many editors making arguments in support of user's positions, certainly not a
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that we provide fair and balanced descriptions of living people far supersedes your subjective assessment of whether content is "interesting enough for wikipedia", and your attempt to apply a literal interpretation of the policy in a manner manifestly contrary to its purpose. The question of why the
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has been in the news under favorable circumstances, to such an extent as to provide sufficient material for a fair, balanced, and comprehensive biography. To declare that only the scandal in Iseman was involved was "real news", and to denigrate all other coverage as "small town fluff" simply because
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All of your press examples are just references back to the NYT story earlier this year, usually in the context of discussing media coverage of McCain. None of them are new investigations into McCain's relationship with Iseman, or new interviews with Iseman, or anything like that. I'm not saying this
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The Times looked and looked but were unable to come up with any evesdropping or keyhole-peeping witnesses—or, better yet, a manilla envelope containing a sheaf of glossy photos some interested party had surruptitiously thrown over the
Newspaper offices' transom. Nothing. (But to fill out the rest of
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BLP is absolutely not intended only "to protect the interests and reputations of living people." It is intended for a much more limited purpose: to protect the interests and reputations of living people insofar as concerns material genuinely worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. Otherwise you are
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If that is what you are arguing may I suggest you do your own web search on her? I did so and I found multiple recent reports. I can understand that apologists for McCain would want to suppress coverage of Isaman -- they would want to bury this story. But I don't understand why serious contributors
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Other controversies that have been started by articles in RS have generally not been to the degree that the NY Times has become part of the "controversy" thus far. I don't think the controversy around NYT has anything to do with them "falsifying their information", but rather publishing the article
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is quite properly (and prominently) concerned with preventing living people from being harmed by some highly unencyclopedic material, and irrelevant to this discussion, since, even if true, it would in no way refute my claim that if an action in no way protects the interests of a living person, it
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Like other specific provisions of the policy, this sentence has a particular purpose, namely, to limit the introduction of potentially harmful information concerning living people into the encyclopedia. Editors can't claim that a living person was involved in some salacious scandal on the basis of
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This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons on other pages. The burden of evidence for any edit on
Knowledge (XXG), but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the
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If we follow the above logic then anybody mentioned in passing in any scandal that features on wikipedia should have their own page so as to present a balanced picture of that person - even if that means adding otherwise unencyclopedic material. And that's precisely what this page consists of. The
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I don't think we need to add fluff just to balance out other not-particularly-negative information. Is there anything on Iseman's page that's notable outside of the context of the controversy? IMO none of that fluff is of any encyclopedic value, and it should be pruned. That would leave an article
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page. Strongest argument given by closing admins inevitably boiled down to fairness to the article's subject. By merging the Iseman page with the controversy page, the pedia tended to give undue weight to negative information about Iseman; by keeping the separate and neutral biography page (in its
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McCain has a long history as a carouser. One of his early girlfriends was an exotic dancer and there are allegations that he improperly used Navy aircraft to ferry his girlfriends around the country. Earlier this year a New York Times report, heavy on innuendo, reported that a lobbyist named Vicki
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Ordinarily the New York Times is considered a reliable source for the purposes of
Knowledge (XXG), but the event detailed here is not an ordinary article -- the article came under criticism that even the NYT's own public editor characterized as "lopsided," and culminated in an extraordinary legal
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An elevator attendant who was a young white woman had let out a verbal remonstration as a young black man left the elevator. Nowadays, it's wondered whether this was due his having accidentally grabbed her arm upon leaving or if they had quarreled; yet the authorities' declining to arrest the man
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We have precisely one (conservative-biased) source who is calling the NYT's reporting on this matter "supermarket tabloid." There is substantive debate to be had over the focus, sourcing and possible "rush to publication," but that is not the primary focus of either this real-world debate or this
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You are correct that the controversy isn't limited to McCain. But isn't that always the case when a mainstream media outlet reports on a controversial issue? The outlet becomes, by necessity almost, a part of the controversy? I could list other "controversy" articles on
Knowledge (XXG) that don't
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which are intended to ensure that all content is "genuinely worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia", irrespective of whether it pertains to a living person. It would be an odd and ineffectual choice to write general cleanup and content quality provisions unrelated to the protection of any living
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I have read the deletion review, and I'm sure
Mackensen is very well respected, but even well respected people can be wrong, and I am sorry to say that I disagree with his and your conclusion. I don't really know how to get another AfD started, and I frankly don't even care that much about Vicki
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Knowledge (XXG) needs only be neutral as concerns "significant views" and events. In the treatment of Iseman's role in the controversy both significant views are represented: that she did act sort of improperly, and that she didn't. I can't even understand exactly what "significant view" you are
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I don't think a third AfD is needed yet (I'm not proposing deletion - is AfD still the right procedure?). I honestly think that anti-merge people are misinterpreting NPOV (and that user John254 is misrepresenting BLP, perhaps unintentionally). If everyone would make a sincere effort to engage in
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policy, and I don't think anyone has said anything that tries to justify not merging with regards to that policy. There's nothing interesting on Iseman's page that isn't already on the McCain-controversy page; that seems to me like a clear-cut case of unneeded duplication - and given that it's a
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But the controversy is not limited to John McCain. NYT is catching a lot of flack as a result of the article. The POV is that the NYT's part in the "controversy" is not mentioned in the title. It's a bit premature for a "common name" to exist for the issue, so until one is made, the title should
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The debate represented a new low for the news media during this campaign season, perhaps even topping the New York Times' ridiculous insinuation, that Sen. John McCain had been beyond friendly with lobbyist Vicki Iseman. McCain and Iseman both denied the insinuation and the New York Times never
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Link this issue to McCain's integrity problem. Everybody wants to put those accusations of McCain infidelity behind them. It's a sleazy topic (and an icky thought.) But the real story of his association with Vicki Iseman is his ongoing use of lobbyists' airplanes and money. Surrogates should be
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I would prefer if you didn't misrepresent my words. I didn't say that BLP is intended for general purpose cleanup. I only said that BLP is still secondary to notability (it is after all an encyclopedia). And that you are misinterpreting (the spirit and letter of) BLP and NPOV as supporting the
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When anti-merge users vaguely cite policy in order to suppress discussion that's ok, but when I suggest policy is being misinterpreted (in both spirit and letter), that's wiki-lawyering? What makes your and user John254's assertions so obviously valid? Once again, I'm aware of the previous DRV
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I want our readers to have the power. Sometimes I am just a reader. I am curious. My curiousity takes me off in directions which, frankly, our mergist friends don't anticipate. I don't think our readers curiousity, my curiousity, should be circumscribed by the limits of the imaginations of our
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What User:Justmeherenow said in jest is correct in fact. The article title is clearly POV since it skims over the fact that this article (self-admittedly, by the NYT ombudsman) was flimsy, had little basis in fact and did not back up the 'romance' issue or the 'favors' issue clearly enough for
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The timing complaint is that why did the NY Times wait until now (2008 while McCain is running for President) to publish the article and, considering the NY Times is considered to be a "liberal newspaper", that it appeared to be released just as McCain all but confirmed he'd be the Republican
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should be avoided. A perceived procedural error made in posting anything, such as an idea or nomination, is not grounds for invalidating that post. Follow the spirit, not the letter, of any rules, policies and guidelines if you feel they conflict. If the rules prevent you from improving the
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Dan Schnur,, McCains communication director durring the applicable time period has come out to say this story is not plausible. I think he's comments should be added to the article seeing as he is the only person willing to publicly comment (the NYT story was based exclusively on annonymous
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Black citizenry amassed to protect the young man and white citizenry to "suppress" them. While the resulting mass murder of black residents was originally termed a "race riot," on further analysis it is clearly a "massacre." Also, there is clearly more of a scandal in the reportage of a
3151:-- is a clear attempt to circumvent the widespread consensus for the continued existence of this article, expressed at DRV, by utilizing a forum with far more limited participation: the DRV discussion clearly considered the existence or non-existence of the article, consistent with our
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is intended for one purpose only: to protect the interests and reputations of living people. The policy is not designed for the purpose of general cleanup, or, as you put it, "trying to improve wikipedia by preventing clutter". Clearly, removing most favorable information concerning
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The AfD was very close on Vicki Iseman, back when she and this controversy were much in the news. Five months later, the story has faded, there's been little or no media followup, and Iseman has lapsed into total obscurity. I'd say there's a good case for merging out her article.
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concerning Vicki Iseman, with the result that we only describe Vicki Iseman in the context of the scandal in which she was involved, thereby producing the very sort of negatively-biased coverage that our biographies of living persons policy is designed to prevent." Closing admin
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are statements of fact, not opinion, since opinions are characterized, not asserted. For instance, we wouldn't write "X is a good singer", but rather, something along the lines of "A survey by Y found that 88% of respondents characterized X as a good singer." Thus, to state
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Since some people are claiming (in a highly bureaucratic fashion) that objection to the redirection needs to occur here rather than at DRV- I'm stating here my strong objection. There was a clear AfD keep. The redirection is directly counter to the community consensus.
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BLP is absolutely not intended only "to protect the interests and reputations of living people." It is intended for a much more limited purpose: to protect the interests and reputations of living people insofar as concerns material genuinely worthy of inclusion in an
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a page. The "NPOV problem" seems to refer to overstating the importance of a person, (and perhaps also to inflating the importance of an event) by creating superfluous pages. More generally, NPOV is being misapplied here as I argued in my last post. As for the
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has so far stayed within the letter of the rules, some of the language displayed here and in edit summaries seems to demonstrate some inherent bias on user's part. There's min-maxing taking place here, and I agree with John254's assertion of egregious
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I did give a stronger argument, and you've yet to respond to it. I hope we can have this discussion without making these kinds of accusations. If you look through my edit history I don't think you'll find any hint of a political agenda of any kind.
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it's going to be added must hold up under American libel and privacy (and other) laws, and NPOV (and other policies not being disputed here). A couple of sentences down (in the only part of the intro that wasn't quoted in the preceding post) we
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Today Feb. 23 the New York Times has an article on the efforts McCain made on behalf of Glencairn Ltd. a client of Vicki Iseman. McCain threatened to overhaul the Federal Commumications Commission if it denied Glencairn its regulatory loophole.
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whose content duplicates stuff found on the page for the controversy, which is why I've proposed the merge. A big part of the reason that previous discussion was inconclusive is because people wanted to "wait and see" if this became a
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In the spring of this year, question marks were raised about John's fidelity, specifically during his first presidential bid when rumours sprang up about the nature of his relationship with a pretty blonde young woman, lobbyist Vicki
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My thoughts (I was involved with this eons ago and was surprised to see that it had been undeleted): Per the arbitrator's comments, I agree that it isn't clearly a BLP1E problem as some have suggested. I have no problem with a merge
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Univision was among several broadcasters that employed Vicki Iseman, a lobbyist whose friendship with McCain in the late 1990s prompted a top aide to warn her away lest the relationship undermine his reputation as a foe of special
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trying to balance. Iseman's possible involvement in this thing with McCain, and her other much less noteworthy activities don't even speak to the same issues and thus cannot possibly balance each other out in any meaningful sense.
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of useful information. I wouldn't have blanked most of the page if I had known it would be so controversial, but at the time I felt that I was removing trivia, and I was most certainly not trying to cause injury to anyone's
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I concur with the observation that "After all the grief to get BLP approved as policy, it is unaceptable that a few motivated editors feel they can engage locally to contravene its core principles." According, I would ask
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into a means by which to injure the reputations of living people" - I call it reading comprehension. The "general terms of the policy" that you've highlighted do not support your position; it only says that the material
2824:. Once again it seems that anti-merge voices are trying to shut down discussion without actually making an earnest effort to engage the pro-merge argument. (As for allegations of bias; I'll respond on your talk page.)
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is a requirement that we have a balanced presentation of facts, since we do not offer opinions. We do not attempt an untenable distinction between "pure facts" and "facts about who holds what opinion" -- indeed, the
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While it is somewhat vacuously true that "even well respected people can be wrong", I ask which of the following situations is more probable? That the overwhelming consensus of established users who participated in
2772:, no additional harm is being done beyond whatever harm resulted from the NYT story in the first place, and even that is "balanced" by the inclusion of viewpoints that cast doubt on the NYT's reporting and motives.
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settlement where Times was required to print an Iseman-dictated "clarification" of the story. I suggest that the article be somewhat rewritten to emphasize the shaky nature of the Times' allegations to the reader.
2479:. With the exception of the NYT front page story the sources are (essentially) hometown newspeople producing interest pieces - and not real news. You're trying to balance out a national story with small town fluff.
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1709:. Frankly I would warn our mergist friends that, if they can't find stronger arguments for merge they risk giving the unfortunate appearance of indulging in wishing to suppress material largely just because
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I've thought about the above and now conclude that while tertiary analysis should in general be considered moreso encyclopedic, in matter of titles we should still to bow to consensus title coinages arising
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Iseman's possible involvement in this thing with McCain, and her other much less noteworthy activities don't even speak to the same issues and thus cannot possibly balance each other out in any meaningful
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The timing issue is also that 1) the paper had this story (such as it is) back in December, before the primaries even began but 2) released it only after McCain was a 'sure thing' to win the nomination. -
3359:, conclusively resolved in favor of my position, with far more widespread participation than can possibly be expected in this talk page discussion, and clearly explained by a respected former arbitrator:
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If these were the only real goals of the policies, it would be explicitly stated in the policy. It shouldn't fall to someone like John254 to explain their secret meaning. The policy being sited states:
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Please stop trying to shove the New York Times into the article headline - it's getting more awkward by the moment. "John McCain New York Times controversy over lobbyist??" Discuss your proposals here.
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which clearly requires the fair and balanced treatment of living people. To unilaterally declare that every bit of favorable information concerning a living person is "unencyclopedic", then summarily
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is intended for general purpose cleanup unrelated to the protection of any living person's interests, and that a highly imbalanced choice of topics for discussion in an article does not violate our
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We're trying to contribute to an encyclopedia here: the material we include ought to be interesting, and notable. Excessive concern for the subject's image is getting in the way of that objective.
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Where a person is mentioned by name in a Knowledge (XXG) article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them. ...
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presents such exceptional circumstances, namely, that we have more than enough material concerning her to write a truly comprehensive biography. Nonetheless, some editors insist on claiming that
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into a sword with which to injure the reputations of the very people the policy is designed to protect is abhorrent, and something that I, and many other responsible editors, will firmly oppose.
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there can't be NPOV violations by omission, only that including a negative notable event does not create a need to scrounge up out a balancing positive event; there's a reason BLP doesn't say
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there may necessarily be exceptional circumstances in which the purely robotic application of the literal text of the policy frustrates its purpose, and produces a bizarre result. The case of
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Would the dual-named title avoid so much undue weight to McCain's side of the controversy/controversies at expense of it being given to the controversy/controversies about Times' reportage? --
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rumor and hearsay -- instead, a reliable source is needed, and, even then, the material might not be suitable for inclusion (for instance, it might be prohibited by a correct application of
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2252:@Geo Swan, I'm not sure what the deal is with the tag. I'm pretty sure I followed the instructions for merging exactly, but if not I wouldn't mind if someone explained how to do it right.
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Daniel Schnur, McCain's 2000 communication director with no current connection to the campaign, said it was "highly implausible"; that he would have been made aware of any such concerns.
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3155:, not the mere technical question of whether the article should be administratively deleted. This "kind of local talk page obstructionism... is unhelpful" and should cease immediately.
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The burden of evidence for any edit on Knowledge (XXG), but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.
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The policy refers to balancing viewpoints, and the McCain thing doesn't "contradict" anything about Iseman. Thus, I feel quite confident in my assertion that you only need provide "
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The anti-merge people seem to essentially be arguing that deleting the article would leave a wiki-wide slightly negative coverage of this obscure woman, and that this would violate
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Agree with the merge idea. Geo Swan's evidence is just what Wasted Time R says it is: evidence that it was the New York Times article, not Iseman, that was noteworthy. Iseman is a
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2321:"if they can't find stronger arguments for merge they risk giving the unfortunate appearance of indulging in wishing to suppress material largely just because they don't like it."
3639:"is intended... to protect the interests and reputations of living people insofar as concerns material genuinely worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia" actually means that "our
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Iseman had a relationship with the candidate, including assertions that McCain even acknowledged "improprieties" to some of his staff. McCain and Iseman flatly denied the story.
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Let me see if I understand your argument for merging. Basically, you are saying the article should be merged because Iseman is no longer being mentioned in the Press -- correct?
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Yet the headline of the initial news report demanded that authorities "Nab Negro for Attacking Girl In an Elevator." And a follow-up story reported: "To Lynch Negro Tonight."
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is designed to avoid prurient descriptions of largely unpublicized but potentially controversial material concerning people notable for more mundane reasons. In short, our
1373:. Not being an American, I'm a bit unclear on what the timing issue is since there were no primaries around then and McCain has basically already won the nomination anyway
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would conflict with the fundamental principles of the policy, they are overriden by the policy's general provisions. This form of policy construction has been codified in
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Howard Dean, and I believe Barack Obama too, said that his personal/professional closeness with the lobbyist, not his alleged romantic affair with her, was the main issue.
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is intended to prevent material genuinely worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia from harming the interests of living persons." This claim would be both incorrect, since
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Please challenge this statement: After three weeks, this discussion has gone stale, has drawn few users' comments and has demonstrated no clear consensus to merge.
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He denied that he'd ever had a meeting with comely lobbyist Vicki Iseman and her client Lowell Paxon, even though he had. And had admitted it in a legal deposition.
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is properly understood as a shield, designed to avoid harm to the reputations of living people described in Knowledge (XXG) articles. To twist the language of the
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I might be missing something but it appears to me that altho the article mentions the issue of timing twice, it doesn't explain what the issue with the timing was
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scandals under the pretense of biographies of their participants, thereby placing massively undue weight on the scandals in our descriptions of people's lives.
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scandals under the pretense of biographies of their participants, thereby placing massively undue weight on the scandals in our descriptions of people's lives.
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Why is it more neutral? The New York Times is not part of McCain's relationship with the lobbyist, nor is it the only news organization reporting on the issue.
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Is the primary event a scandal? Or is its reportage? Let's look at a case where I believe secondary media reports were more the scandal than the primary event.
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https://web.archive.org/20090105043018/http://www.valawyersweekly.com:80/weeklyedition/2008/12/30/lobbyist-vicki-iseman-files-27m-suit-against-new-york-times/
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biography of a living person we have even stricter wiki-policies to keep in mind than verifiability and neutral point of view (which I'm not challenging btw).
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is designed to avoid prurient descriptions of largely unpublicized but potentially controversial material concerning people notable for more mundane reasons.
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discussing the unseemliness of seeking financial relief (which is what civil immunity really is) for companies that have been wining and dining Sen. McCain.
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to the wikipedia, who are committed neutral, unbiased coverage would want to suppress coverage of an individual who continues receive mention in the Press.
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200:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
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Viz., were sensationalistic news reports moreso a scandal, or an interracial altercation in an elevator that was less than assault? IMO, the newsreports.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080227045214/http://news.bostonherald.com:80/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1075170&srvc=home&position=rated
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I would like to keep discussion from being split up across the two talk pages. So I'm going to respond here to the following quote, from a post made by
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It should be possible to expand and fairly describe Iseman in the other article, such that it's clear her life has more to it than just this. Otherwise
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has been completely whitewashed of any controversial material, and reads as though it might have been written by the White House press office. Our
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is a living person, and controversial claims regarding her in any article must be held to exceptionally high standards of sourcing and accuracy.
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I just checked. The merge suggestor has excised practically the entire article. I am going to revert this change and request greater discussion.
3627:? The untenability of your position is accentuated by the bizarre claims that you have advanced to support it, such as the assertions that the
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This is an example of redirection. The controversy this article addresses is the questions raised about McCain's relationships with lobbyists.
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As for the merge discussion itself; I don't think the anti-merge people have addressed my primary rationale for the merger. I quoted from the
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is a primary source, from a connected individual, who is non-neutral. This falls far short of the coverage needed for a rumored affair on a
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would not be considered notable on the basis of the standards articulated in the guideline -- especially since the plethora of coverage of
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type of thing. But now, months have passed since the story broke (and since anyone showed any interest in editing her page), and Iseman "
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It took more than four months, but something finally beat out the Vicki Iseman story for its sheer chutzpah and utter irresponsibility.
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If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted.
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Per WP guidelines, I was "bold" and added the linking device of an en-dash in the title (as Style page says such a thing is done). --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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No consensus was reached, so it seems to me that it's perfectly reasonable to try to revisit this now that a few months have passed.
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Controversy about whether there is indeed more than the one original controversy and, therefore, what we should call it and/or them,
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080225150205/http://slate.com:80/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/archive/2008/02/20/its-about-vicki-stupid.aspx
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I also strongly concur with the merge. As Geo Swan (inadevertently) demonstrates above, this is clearly within the purview of our
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lobbyist before then. I would also like to ask that the people who have put this article together try to bulk up the article for
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violations may indeed be created by a biased choice of topics for discussion. Consider, for example, a hypothetical biography of
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Don't you know silly Knowledge (XXG) policies don't apply to Republicans? Sarcasm aside, I've removed the section for now, per
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080228081032/http://writ.news.findlaw.com:80/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=/dean/20080222.html
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3069:" articles, which purport to be biographies, but really only discuss particular events in which their subjects were involved. "
3061:? Under most circumstances, the ordinary circumstances to which these policy sections were intended to be applied, they don't.
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The NYT is the initial secondarily sourced spin on the primary event of McCain's doing a couple of faves for a cutesy lobbyist.
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Thanks for getting what I missed. I don't know how more clearly I can say that Steve Schmidt is not a reliable source. --
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http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/02/24/why-are-conservatives-so-delusional-about-the-mccain-story.aspx
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When looking at the alternatives, I'm satisfied with the current title. I would object to Iseman being part of the title.
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The person who proposed the merge has said they would trim material from the Vicki Iseman article under the authority of
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In (year), John McCain traded influence for...unproven-as-consumated, thus but the broadly defined definition of, well...
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to this article, or that you, and the few other users who support the merger of this article have correctly applied the
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-media22feb22,1,3173594.story?page=1&cset=true&ctrack=1
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I think what we have here is an article that totally complies with all of the wikipedia's policies, particularly the
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810:. It's just awkward to try and force the NYT into the title - is this a controversy about a New York Times lobbyist?
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http://www.valawyersweekly.com/weeklyedition/2008/12/30/lobbyist-vicki-iseman-files-27m-suit-against-new-york-times/
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current version, pretty much) the pedia gives proper weight to positive and negative information about the subject.
2160:) should go away; it will still cover both the lobbying and Iseman relationship apsects. I'm saying that a separate
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Is it moreso encyclopedic to go with initial secondarily sourced spin to primary events, or with tertiary analysis?*
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The operative question in both this deletion review and the deletion discussion which provoked it was how to apply
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The operative question in both this deletion review and the deletion discussion which provoked it was how to apply
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is archetypical of such problematic articles, insofar as it consists almost entirely of information concerning the
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merger of this article (or blanking all favorable information that it contains) is inconsistent with the spirit of
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The article, with much detail, includes these criticisms. Actually, its the only part of the article I authored.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20081015125651/http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/02/john_weaver_speaks.html
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Now, it seems to me that the discussion so far basically boils down to including trivialities so as to maintain
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wants this merge, user will have to launch some 3rd AfD process to measure consensus more formally. And while
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Just to throw this out here, is this article properly named? So far the controversy has involved McCain and
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FWIW, the article wasn't solely based on anon sources -- John Weaver was a source, much was public record.
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black-on-white attack in an elevator than there was in the original actual argument between the two youths.
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http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1075170&srvc=home&position=rated
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1938:"Drugs, theft, sexual slurs and rows with her husband: The murky past of would-be First Lady Cindy McCain"
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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3899:, a company whose noteworthiness is certainly greater than Iseman's. (I'll help too, when I have time.)
3732:, and editors for whom "BLP is still secondary" to doctrinaire deletionism, who support the creation of
3652:. Irrespective of which possible meaning is ascribed to your claim, its bizarreness remains unaltered.)
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The general terms of the policy supercede the specific -- to the extent that particular applications of
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
4238:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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It is my position, and those arguing the other side seem to concede, that adding the material violates
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So I propose merging a slimmed down version of Iseman's article into this one. In the meantime, as per
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Controversy over the allegedly goo-goolieyedness of McCain and his therefore showing off his influence;
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as a justification for the merger is frivolous, in the absence of any coherent explanation as to why
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community. In part, this is simply because all sentences in an article even modestly compliant with
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Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's
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If you're not even willing to read other users' comments before participating in this discussion
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#Articles_about_people_notable_only_for_one_event
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Fine, why? And please explain how and why that should override a strong consensus in the AfD.
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is blatantly incorrect. We have many policies and guidelines of general application, such as
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The policies being cited in opposition to merging are being misinterpreted; Quoting John254:
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in third-party reliable sources clearly establishes a presumption of her notability per the
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Knowledge (XXG) page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere
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of BLP requires you to balance every negative with a positive. Here is the description of "
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article if ever there was one, with no good sourcing unconnected to this one event. Merge.
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and the respected former arbitrator who interpreted the outcome correctly applied our our
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1789:"The Daschleization of Barack Obama -- or, How to Lose Your Balance By Centering Yourself"
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Controversy of the New York Times' supermarket tabloidliness in covering said controversy;
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true. The conflict between McCain and the NYT is only one element. But I'm open to ideas.
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going to see mission creep that will undermine the very reason for this site's existence.
3147:-- the proposed action can't actually be described as a merge, since its proponents find
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would improve Knowledge (XXG) through its reflecting a marked increase of neutrality. --
4334:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by
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http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/02/21/mccain_camp_takes_on_the_new_y.html
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Who do we want to have the power here -- our readers -- or ourselves, the contributors?
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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You can call it "exceptional creativity in finding new and exciting ways to twist the
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into a means by which to injure the reputations of living people, grossly misapplying
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http://slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/archive/2008/02/20/its-about-vicki-stupid.aspx
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let's decide what's moreso encyclopedic, the initial secondarily sourced term, the
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the details, such as they are, dear reader, please read the rest of the section.)--
668:
4256:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/02/john_weaver_speaks.html?hpid=topnews
3299:
3270:
doesn't favor her interests. Consequently, such an action is not supported by the
3123:
all information favorable to Vicki Iseman from her biography, thereby creating a "
2522:
some of it appeared in local newspapers is to elevate subjective opinion over our
4296:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=/dean/20080222.html
2842:
I have to agree. The accusation of wikilawyering is completely out of line. This
2370:
1545:
the option of watchlisting changes that affected one topic, but not the other(s).
4062:
4027:
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3695:
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2491:
2390:
2342:
2328:
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1530:
1529:, I'm removing the material on her page that is not relevant to her notability.
3342:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
3117:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
3111:
has shown exceptional creativity in finding new and exciting ways to twist the
3091:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
3051:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
3017:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
2887:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
2739:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
2716:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
2568:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
2552:
Knowledge (XXG):Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown
1573:
as if the tag was placed in February, when the tag was actually placed in July?
281:
263:
4340:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
4162:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
3927:
3030:
1941:
1792:
653:. Not to mention the whole NPOV issue with the title.. Perhaps something like
483:
401:
378:
372:
351:
287:
2490:. For the reasons I just mentioned, I think the NPOV concerns are misplaced.
3941:"WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information"
3089:, under the pretense of a biography of the complaining witness. Similarly,
2972:, from Knowledge (XXG) articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.
505:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
2828:
debate I'm sure we will be able to hash this out and come to a consensus.
3046:
discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures.
2475:
material that's been added might be well-sourced, and neutral, but it is
1886:
1742:
4118:
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
917:
OK, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we're saying there exists (1) the
2623:
and summarized by the closing administrator for your reading pleasure.
1463:
There is a longer discussion about this with more participants over at
1160:
leads us to believe that the incident fell below the level of assualt.
1142:, or such suggested terms arising from tertiary analysis as maybe the
4322:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/02/john_weaver_speaks.html
2726:
These policies are also supposed to prevent clutter and redundancy.
3712:
does not support the merger of this article. The invocation of the
3576:
which focused primarily on the fact that Miss Bush once attended a
3143:
in his closing statement. The recent attempt to blank and redirect
317:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
4126:
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
3736:-violating imbalances in our coverage of living people to satisfy
2504:
That last paragraph could have been more polite. Sorry about that.
1584:
WP:Biographies of living persons#People who are relatively unknown
3310:), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all
2759:
to create a page. You are interpreting it backwards - even as it
2733:
is designed to avoid the creation of articles which are actually
2562:
is designed to avoid the creation of articles which are actually
3233:
2483:
2464:
3302:
articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a
3139:
to this article, summarized by the respected former arbitrator
3131:
is intended to eliminate. Don't take my word for it, however:
2885:. It must be understood, of course, that the literal texts of
615:
587:
226:
207:
from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
184:
15:
3418:
You continue to misinterpret the scope of both BLP, and NPOV.
4141:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
2718:
are intended for far more salutary purposes than those that
2554:
are intended for far more salutary purposes than those that
3708:
I have already provided an extensive explanation as to why
2083:"McCain makes the race personal, attacks Obama's integrity"
4242:
for additional information. I made the following changes:
3232:
It is my view that there is a misunderstanding about what
973:
made a couple of phone calls on behalf of lobbyist (name,
657:
would be better? (But then, that seems a bit long to me)--
962:
In all seriousness, for this article, I suggest the title
4102:
I have just added archive links to one external link on
3983:
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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4107:
3829:
3784:
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3169:
3148:
3120:
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that biographies be fair, balanced, and written from a
2527:
2421:
2408:
1570:
1371:
3135:
indicates a clear consensus for my application of the
3065:
is intended to deal with the longstanding problem of "
2970:
removed immediately and without waiting for discussion
2805:
violation in the "slimming" of the Vicki Iseman page.
1019:
Times story about McCain's run-of-the-mill favors for—
160:
4078:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
3347:
Of course, this very issue -- how to best apply the
2345:
has read the deletion processes associated with the
1560:
tag please address the previous merge discussion in
859:
John McCain–New York Times controversy over lobbyist
400:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
4344:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
4166:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
174:
3033:, and rules are not the purpose of the community.
2881:to stop trying violate the core principles of our
2316:I'm also going to have to strongly object to this:
1726:Here are some of the recent references to Iseman:
1562:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Vicki Iseman
3798:, which clearly and concisely summarizes why our
3786:, then you should at least read the statement by
4555:B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
3790:, a respected former arbitrator, in closing the
655:The New York Times' John McCain lobbyist article
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
4020:John McCain lobbyist controversy, February 2008
3324:John McCain lobbyist controversy, February 2008
2912:and to all of our content policies, especially:
2158:John McCain lobbyist controversy, February 2008
1132:*That is, applying to McCain---New York Times,
4330:This message was posted before February 2018.
4152:This message was posted before February 2018.
3357:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review/Log/2008 May 4
3133:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review/Log/2008 May 4
2424:. You seem to want to re-argue the same case.
1840:"Rape joke returns to torment McCain campaign"
1296:That has been already added. From the article:
2964:. Be very firm about the use of high quality
2792:consensus to merge. What is clear is that if
1030:(Nothing more than that. Sorry, dear reader.)
806:And I've moved it back. We don't call it the
8:
3103:sort of negatively biased coverage that the
2755:To begin with the policy deals with reasons
2486:vs. deleting said trivialities in line with
2379:essentially remains a low-profile individual
1465:Talk:John McCain presidential campaign, 2008
4423:with the subject and have a reputation for
3042:. Disagreements should be resolved through
2898:biographical material about a living person
2220:guideline and as such it should be merged.
451:
346:
258:
4230:I have just modified 6 external links on
3277:It's a fairly well accepted principle of
2896:Editors must take particular care adding
965:Dispute over McCain's favors for lobbyist
546:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States
3164:First things first; there's no need for
2546:are not mere "trivialities". Of course,
2534:has attempt to do here, is an egregious
2164:BLP article is no longer necessary, per
1582:. I had to look up "NPF". It expands to
1016:I suggest the pertinent section be named
932:and so on. Is that what we're saying? --
4411:. "As we all know, all content must be
3919:
3057:conflict with the general terms of the
2420:seems to confirm this assertion in the
2040:"Politics and its web of controversies"
602:on 3 January 2009 (UTC). The result of
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1430:Am in strong agreement with redirect.
414:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Journalism
4550:Low-importance United States articles
4427:." Even more so on a BLP. Cheers, --
3802:favors the retention of this article:
1012:And only partly in jest, for over at
808:Watergate-Washington Post controversy
327:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography
7:
3800:biographies of living persons policy
3730:biographies of living persons policy
3650:biographies of living persons policy
3641:biographies of living persons policy
3629:biographies of living persons policy
3625:biographies of living persons policy
3621:biographies of living persons policy
3605:biographies of living persons policy
3599:. (Actually, the present article on
3597:biographies of living persons policy
3556:biographies of living persons policy
3547:Knowledge (XXG):No original research
3349:biographies of living persons policy
3331:biographies of living persons policy
3272:biographies of living persons policy
3263:biographies of living persons policy
3192:biographies of living persons policy
3153:biographies of living persons policy
3137:biographies of living persons policy
3113:biographies of living persons policy
3105:biographies of living persons policy
3083:Special:Undelete/Crystal Gail Mangum
3075:biographies of living persons policy
3059:biographies of living persons policy
2883:biographies of living persons policy
2612:biographies of living persons policy
2576:biographies of living persons policy
2572:biographies of living persons policy
2524:biographies of living persons policy
2407:dismissed the BLP1E argument in the
499:This article is within the scope of
394:This article is within the scope of
303:This article is within the scope of
4515:Biography articles of living people
3998:The result of the move request was
2770:"spirit of WP:BLP(i.e. do no harm)"
2446:and thus be a pointless guideline.
1699:policies. This article survived an
630:on 23 February 2008. The result of
249:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
4560:WikiProject United States articles
4535:Low-importance Journalism articles
3087:2006 Duke University lacrosse case
2787:With due respect to all involved,
2442:would almost always be trumped by
549:Template:WikiProject United States
14:
4234:. Please take a moment to review
4106:. Please take a moment to review
1989:"John McCain's favorite charity?"
1739:"Obama Loan Based on Good Credit"
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
4232:John McCain lobbyist controversy
4104:John McCain lobbyist controversy
4024:John McCain lobbyist controversy
2844:clearly violates official policy
2530:all such favorable material, as
1550:Could the person who placed the
1508:clients are, etc. To quote from
1145:Tulsa Black Wall Street massacre
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591:
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45:Click here to start a new topic.
25:John McCain lobbyist controversy
4540:WikiProject Journalism articles
4310:Corrected formatting/usage for
4260:Corrected formatting/usage for
3692:other similarly redundant pages
3617:the May 4, 2008 deletion review
3595:'s life, thereby violating our
3587:be imbalanced, and violate our
1467:. Please comment there instead.
1014:Criticism of The New York Times
626:This article was nominated for
598:This article was nominated for
566:This article has been rated as
434:This article has been rated as
417:Template:WikiProject Journalism
4545:B-Class United States articles
4525:WikiProject Biography articles
2908:to all applicable laws in the
330:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
4218:16:58, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
3543:Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability
3316:published by reliable sources
2990:Biographies of living persons
2822:ended somewhat inconclusively
2619:was discussed extensively at
1404:19:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1394:17:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1383:14:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1360:19:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
1331:20:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
1312:20:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
1075:19:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1065:01:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
957:23:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
942:23:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
913:22:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
899:22:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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871:22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
850:22:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
820:21:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
802:18:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
788:20:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
753:20:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
743:20:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
715:20:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
697:19:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
677:19:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
662:19:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
408:and see a list of open tasks.
193:biographies of living persons
42:Put new text under old text.
4398:15:53, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
4071:17:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
4054:12:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
4036:03:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
4014:01:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
3726:general notability guideline
3648:has no justification in our
3633:neutral point of view policy
3589:neutral point of view policy
3554:person's interests into our
2385:). She's a textbook case of
1883:"ABC's debate about nothing"
315:contribute to the discussion
4530:B-Class Journalism articles
3792:May 4, 2008 deletion review
3607:certainly does not require
3149:nothing to be worth merging
3127:" article of the type that
2761:explicitly favours a merger
205:must be removed immediately
4576:
4520:B-Class biography articles
4361:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4227:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
4183:(last update: 5 June 2024)
4124:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
4099:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
3971:00:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
3909:03:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
3889:11:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
3551:Knowledge (XXG):Notability
2641:" in the NPOV policy page:
2627:04:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)"
2369:-style controversy, or an
1266:Dan Schnur - CNN Interview
1151:Tulsa "Nab Negro" massacre
572:project's importance scale
440:project's importance scale
3930:, Wikimania, August 2006.
3870:01:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
3837:01:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
3828:20:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
3779:19:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
3745:02:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
3704:18:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
3657:04:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
3506:08:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
3394:04:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
3385:20:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
3333:does indeed provide that
3257:03:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
3160:00:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
3038:encyclopedia, you should
3029:Knowledge (XXG) is not a
2868:17:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2838:17:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2815:13:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2782:08:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2677:05:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2661:facts about living people
2597:05:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2583:04:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
2514:04:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
2500:04:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
2456:03:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
2434:02:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
2399:23:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
2360:20:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
2337:19:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
2262:19:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
2230:17:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
2212:17:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
2178:11:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
2139:06:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
1625:03:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
1606:02:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
1569:I would like ot know why
1539:01:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
1479:20:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1454:18:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1440:18:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1425:18:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1410:Disagree with redirection
1240:10:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1181:09:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
1134:reductio ad KuKluxKlanum,
565:
502:WikiProject United States
471:
433:
366:
275:
257:
80:Be welcoming to newcomers
4498:20:30, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
4472:20:16, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
4085:Please do not modify it.
3990:Please do not modify it.
3107:is designed to prevent.
2960:We must get the article
2610:"The requirement of our
2605:on the Iseman talk page:
1498:13:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
1115:Philosophical question:
507:United States of America
4449:12:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
4223:External links modified
4095:External links modified
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2467:. While, I agree that
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2115:Check date values in:
2069:Check date values in:
2018:Check date values in:
1967:Check date values in:
1916:Check date values in:
1891:Friday, April 18, 2008
1869:Check date values in:
1818:Check date values in:
1767:Check date values in:
1523:
1518:
1301:
1168:
1167:
552:United States articles
397:WikiProject Journalism
239:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
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3304:neutral point of view
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306:WikiProject Biography
243:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
100:Neutral point of view
4342:regular verification
4164:regular verification
4149:to let others know.
4110:. If necessary, add
3714:notability guideline
3568:is obviously false.
3355:-- was discussed at
2942:No original research
2375:Clinton's black baby
925:and then also (3...
494:United States portal
105:No original research
4332:After February 2018
4154:After February 2018
4145:parameter below to
3943:, May 16, 2006 and
3817:the AfD instead of
3601:Barbara Pierce Bush
3593:Barbara Pierce Bush
3574:Barbara Pierce Bush
3561:Your assertion that
3374:the AfD instead of
1484:Democratic response
921:as well as (2) the
520:Articles Requested!
420:Journalism articles
4386:InternetArchiveBot
4337:InternetArchiveBot
4159:InternetArchiveBot
3967:
3955:Regarding sourcing
3261:Knowledge (XXG)'s
3025:WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY
2852:(global) consensus
2403:2nd DRV submitter
1711:they don't like it
1228:elsewhere than WP.
1034:Its lede sentence:
651:The New York Times
333:biography articles
245:content assessment
86:dispute resolution
47:
4362:
4216:
4184:
3961:
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3035:Instruction creep
2558:has put them to.
2422:closing statement
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66:Assume good faith
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4417:reliable sources
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4211:Talk to my owner
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4346:have permission
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3897:Alcalde and Fay
3534:Your claim that
3300:Knowledge (XXG)
3049:Now, why would
3044:consensus-based
2820:process, which
2621:deletion review
2381:" (quoted from
2114:
2104:
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2091:June 29th, 2008
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4460:Vicki Iseman
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3945:May 19, 2006
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3796:Vicki Iseman
3722:Vicki Iseman
3718:Vicki Iseman
3608:
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3580:in the buff
3563:
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3353:Vicki Iseman
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3281:(and, thus,
3268:Vicki Iseman
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2476:
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2405:User:John254
2378:
2347:Vicki Iseman
2341:I hope that
2320:
2162:Vicki Iseman
2100:
2094:. Retrieved
2090:
2053:
2047:. Retrieved
2035:
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1996:. Retrieved
1984:
1981:Andrew Zajac
1951:
1945:. Retrieved
1933:
1900:
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1890:
1853:
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1835:
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1785:June 29 2008
1784:
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19:This is the
4421:unconnected
3857:∴ Therefore
3578:naked party
3312:significant
3213:WP:ONEEVENT
3173:reputation.
3040:ignore them
2848:WP:ONEEVENT
2710:Of course,
2538:violation.
2488:WP:ONEEVENT
2477:not notable
2440:WP:ONEEVENT
2387:WP:ONEEVENT
2383:WP:ONEEVENT
2371:Alex Polier
2343:User:DiggyG
2288:WP:ONEEVENT
2218:WP:ONEEVENT
2200:WP:ONEEVENT
2166:WP:ONEEVENT
1934:2 July 2008
1735:July 6 2008
1510:WP:ONEEVENT
1352:64.26.106.9
1346:—Preceding
1322:∴ Therefore
1303:∴ Therefore
1274:—Preceding
971:John McCain
969:In (year),
779:∴ Therefore
734:∴ Therefore
688:∴ Therefore
148:free images
31:not a forum
4509:Categories
4393:Report bug
3915:References
3740:concerns.
3166:incivility
3031:moot court
2998:do no harm
2966:references
2665:Mr. Rogers
2096:2008-07-14
2049:2008-07-14
2036:2008-07-02
2004:interests.
1998:2008-07-14
1947:2008-07-14
1942:Daily Mail
1896:2008-07-14
1849:2008-07-14
1798:2008-07-14
1793:Yahoo News
1748:2008-07-14
1693:neutrality
1391:Bobblehead
1127:__________
1028:lobbyist.
750:Bobblehead
712:Bobblehead
659:Bobblehead
411:Journalism
402:journalism
358:Journalism
4456:WP:BLPSPS
4419:that are
4376:this tool
4369:this tool
4270:dead link
4250:dead link
4198:this tool
4191:this tool
3823:Mackensen
3819:relisting
3788:Mackensen
3380:Mackensen
3376:relisting
3206:material.
3141:Mackensen
2751:options.
2409:statement
2156:article (
2108:cite news
2062:cite news
2011:cite news
1960:cite news
1909:cite news
1862:cite news
1811:cite news
1760:cite news
1490:SteveSims
1375:Nil Einne
1271:sources).
975:blah blah
949:FCYTravis
947:article.
905:FCYTravis
877:FCYTravis
842:FCYTravis
812:FCYTravis
324:Biography
270:Biography
209:libellous
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
4382:Cheers.—
4204:Cheers.—
4114:cbignore
3815:overturn
3811:WP:BLP1E
3771:Eusebeus
3372:overturn
3368:WP:BLP1E
3241:feelings
3125:coatrack
3071:Coatrack
3067:coatrack
2906:strictly
2879:Eusebeus
2860:Eusebeus
2765:creating
2657:balanced
2367:Lewinsky
2222:Eusebeus
2131:Geo Swan
2129:Cheers!
2044:opednews
1887:ABC News
1781:RJ Eskow
1743:AOL News
1598:Geo Swan
1596:Cheers!
1432:Eusebeus
1348:unsigned
1288:contribs
1276:unsigned
628:deletion
600:deletion
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
4274:tag to
4254:tag to
4236:my edit
4214::Online
4143:checked
4108:my edit
4059:Support
4042:Support
3881:BusterD
3834:John254
3767:WP:TLDR
3742:John254
3654:John254
3570:WP:NPOV
3391:John254
3292:WP:NPOV
3287:WP:NPOV
3279:WP:NPOV
3157:John254
2856:BusterD
2807:BusterD
2639:Balance
2625:John254
2603:John254
2580:John254
2540:WP:NPOV
2426:BusterD
2352:BusterD
2204:Noroton
1953:Iseman.
1471:Noroton
1446:JoshuaZ
1417:JoshuaZ
1401:Nhprman
1280:Macutty
1148:or the
1072:Nhprman
1051:"......
669:BusterD
570:on the
438:on the
241:B-class
154:WP refs
142:scholar
4409:WP:BLP
4266:Added
4246:Added
4122:nobots
4063:Lcawte
3901:DiggyG
3862:cogito
3826:(talk)
3807:WP:BLP
3765:Whoa,
3734:WP:BLP
3696:DiggyG
3645:WP:BLP
3637:WP:BLP
3585:itself
3565:sense.
3549:, and
3498:DiggyG
3383:(talk)
3364:WP:BLP
3283:WP:BLP
3249:DiggyG
3109:DiggyG
2923:(NPOV)
2875:DiggyG
2830:DiggyG
2803:WP:BLP
2798:DiggyG
2794:DiggyG
2789:DiggyG
2774:DiggyG
2720:DiggyG
2669:DiggyG
2635:spirit
2617:WP:BLP
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2556:DiggyG
2544:WP:BLP
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2532:DiggyG
2506:DiggyG
2492:DiggyG
2444:WP:BLP
2411:: "...
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2329:DiggyG
2254:DiggyG
2117:|date=
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1531:DiggyG
1527:WP:NPF
1366:Timing
928:) the
857:Title
536:Alerts
247:scale.
126:Google
4483:fried
4434:fried
4415:from
4413:cited
4000:moved
3200:have:
3121:blank
2962:right
2735:about
2564:about
2528:blank
1555:merge
1043:-- iy
1023:woman
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
4492:talk
4486:okra
4480:Deep
4468:talk
4443:talk
4437:okra
4431:Deep
4147:true
4067:talk
4050:talk
4032:talk
3905:talk
3885:talk
3794:for
3775:talk
3700:talk
3609:this
3502:talk
3329:Our
3308:NPOV
3298:All
3295:that
3253:talk
3234:NPOV
3053:and
3019:and
2994:BLPs
2889:and
2877:and
2864:talk
2846:per
2834:talk
2811:talk
2778:talk
2714:and
2673:talk
2655:and
2653:fair
2593:talk
2550:and
2542:and
2510:talk
2496:talk
2484:NPOV
2465:NPOV
2452:talk
2430:talk
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2356:talk
2333:talk
2258:talk
2226:talk
2208:talk
2174:talk
2135:talk
2121:help
2075:help
2024:help
1973:help
1922:help
1875:help
1824:help
1773:help
1695:and
1621:talk
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673:talk
636:keep
634:was
608:keep
606:was
313:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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4320:to
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4026:—--
3964:Ray
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