789:
nothing to do with lifestyle choices, and those who became disabled through no fault of their own. Or do you imagine that Type 1 Diabetes, MS, Muscular
Dystrophy, Parkinson's, Huntington's, Lou Gehrig's disease, congenital heart defects, leukemia, ALS and other similar conditions are the result of smoking or poor diet? Go tell Stephen Hawking that his medical condition is his own fault. There are hundreds - perhaps thousands (ICD-10 medical coding has more than 50k condition codes) - of medical conditions which are the result of genetic abnormality, birth defects, accidents and environmental factors (like exposure to asbestos or radon), and have zero relation to diet, exercise or other lifestyle choices.
803:
Extensive poverty (childhood and adult) exists in the U.S., the U.K. and other First World nations - and there have been countless studies showing that poor diet and issues of obesity in
Western nations are also tied to that poverty. Not to mention the recent 164,000 child study, showing that repeated exposure to antibiotics is also a contributing factor in issues of obesity, because the antibiotics kill gut bacteria that aids in proper processing of caloric intake - which can become permanent if the children had enough exposure, like say kids who are prone to repetitive strep or ear infections.
761:
health insurance before ACA, were paying for their own mistakes? Health care costs based on how healthy you are, are NOT based on how healthy your lifestyle is. Contrary to your rather offensive (and shameful) suggestion, most people in poor health are not sick because of poor lifestyle choices. People who eat right, exercise and avoid unhealthy behaviors still drop dead of heart attacks, get leukemia, develop debilitating arthritis, become disabled in accidents, are exposed to diseases, etc. And those individuals need affordable health care, the same as anyone else.
508:
487:
350:
518:
403:
382:
288:
264:
233:
1287:
and then cites, as supporting evidence for that claim, only items that neither support it or contradict it, is that a good source? And is the problem here that there are no secondary sources that directly address these two pieces, so they cannot be challenged? And finally, is the problem here that in checking the supporting evidence adduced by these articles, I was engaged in primary research?
413:
706:"JONATHAN GRUBER, M.I.T.: It's 12 million people, about a third of which will end up paying more under this law. And that as you said in the introductions sort of the idea. We currently have a highly discriminatory system where if you’re sick, if you’ve been sick or you’re going to get sick, you cannot get health insurance.
298:
1498:
a consensus develops (default length is 30 days). In this case the question might be something like "Is the Hill's assertion that Gruber's testimony was contradicted by earlier statements sufficiently supported (internally, or by other secondaries making similar arguments) to not be a BLP issue" or something like that.
1512:
the article. You would perhaps have a stronger argument to say we should not make the Hill's assertion at all, rather than adding your qualifier - but my own POV aside, there are multiple sources making the assertion that he has described himself that way, so its unlikely to be able to be excluded all together.
947:"You have already drawn some of the brightest minds from academia and policy circles, many of them I have stolen ideas from liberally, people ranging from Robert Gordon to Austan Goolsbee; Jon Gruber; my dear friend, Jim Wallis here, who can inform what are sometimes dry policy debates with a prophetic voice"
1497:
The next step (if we decide we are at a stalemate here) would be to create an RFC. Basically we write up 1 (or N) neutrally worded questions and post it as an RFC (just a special template to use in posting the question). Other editors are automatically notified of the RFC, and discuss the issue until
1471:
4. She says Gruber's biography at the Leigh Bureau calls him an "architect" of the ACA. It doesn't. The current version and every version in the
Wayback Machine describes him the same way: as "a key advisor" on the ACA. Is that primary research or analysis? If it is, I'd still push forward on dispute
1194:
I do not accept that I moved the goal posts. The sub-section under discussion is titled "Congressional hearing", and it is part of the
Grubergate controversy section. To my mind, that means it should be concerned with the video of Gruber telling his undergraduate class that he "helped write" the ACA,
1115:
the “architect” of the
Massachusetts law and/or ObamaCare." - You argue that this is demonstrably false because Gruber has not described himself that way (but you are wrong, since they did provide an example where he described himself of the architect of Romneycare, and stated that he was involved in
885:
The
Biography section here is effectively useless. Someone must know Gruber's real background including upbringing, religious and political affiliations from adolescence on up. The curious who read about Gruber wish to understand how this generically gifted individual has drawn the conclusions that
760:
Also, the only healthy people in this world are not just those who avoid smoking and drinking, there are also people with disabilities and medical conditions that have nothing to do with behaviors. Or do you imagine children born with
Muscular Dystrophy or Type 1 Diabetes, who couldn't get affordable
788:
If you have documentation to prove that assertion, provide it. Otherwise you're just making up your own arrogant assumptions and spouting them as reality. Your comments are the ones offensive to the millions of people in the "First World" who were born with or developed medical conditions which have
779:
100% false, most people in ill health in the first world are in poor health because of lifestyle choices, primarily easy access to high caloric foods and beverages combined with a sedentary lifestyle aka obesity is the single largest cause of poor health in the first world. Contrary to your rather
750:
See the top of the page, where it says this, "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jonathan Gruber (economist) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." And as far as your opening question, I suggest you read the actual article for the answer.
1525:
Yes, the two
Politico articles were written by cunningham. The ironically was that on the older article she described him as an architect in her own voice, and in the latter article said people shouldn't do that. But even in the latter article she provides evidence of where Gruber or his agents had
1511:
Regarding your other question, there is very little to no leeway for adding our own analysis to the text itself (other than reasonable summary of the sources arguments). However, there is a step of editorial discretion in deciding to use a source at all, and what portions of that source to put into
1286:
Now, I am sure that there are many things about
Knowledge policy that I do not yet understand. If a secondary source makes a claim that is directly contradicted by the supporting evidence cited by that source, is it policy that this a good source? If a secondary source makes an inflammatory claim,
802:
And the number one cause of ill health in the world, according to the WHO any every other organization who tracks such things, is poor diet resulting from extreme poverty - which occurs in the First and Third worlds. Poor diets are not now, nor have they ever been, entirely the result of "choices."
678:
I disagree with you about MIT being automatic evidence for notability, but in this case I think external evidence for notability is certainly present. I was definitely hasty in my initial edit, and it has been very educational to see the reaction -- I've learned a lot about what to look for and how
1351:
As pointed out, the statement is that he was introduced as the architect and writer. There are numerous examples of others introducing him that way, and of himself or his agents introducing him that way. One can quibble about if the description is accurate or not, if he was preening or not, and if
836:
100% false and just as offensive as the last diatribe. 4 in 5 adults in the first world do not get meet the exercise requirements of the WHO. The obesity rates and assorted illnesses related to obesity are only up 12,000% in the last two generations according to the CDC. Caloric intake is up 1500%
716:
So, all those who take care of themselves, don't smoke, don't eat too much, stay fit etc - they have been given "unfairly low" healthcare prices? Wow. Astonishing for an economist to put it that way - look up "moral hazard" and see what happens when you remove penalties for bad behavior. You get
1240:
It seems to me that you are treating this sub-section as a general discussion of the disputed views over Gruber's role in the development of the ACA. I have absolutely no objection to there being such a section, and the Sarah Kliff and nytimes items, and even Gruber's undergraduate lecture video,
1069:
Gruber's official bio, used for speaking events for several years, lists him as “a key architect” of healthcare reform in Massachusetts and a “technical consultant” on the federal law. “Several of the architects of Massachusetts reform, including myself, worked closely with the Administration and
1087:
Drafting legislative language - generally a lawyer's job - is entirely different from making key policy choices. Gruber's statement is nowhere contradicted this article. Also, he only every describes himself as a "technical consulant" with respect to the ACA, evidently referring to applying his
1315:. "Articles may include an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if the claim has been published in and is cited from a reliable secondary source""Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources."
709:
The only way to end that discriminatory system is to bring everyone into the system and pay one fair price. That means that the genetic winners, the lottery winners who've been paying an artificially low price because of this discrimination now will have to pay more in return. And that, by my
988:
We have confirmation of nearly 1.5 million dollars. In addition, he was hired by eight additional states: Colorado, Connecticut, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Vermont, West Virginia and Wisconsin. The specific amounts paid in these is unknown, but according to the Washington Post:
1248:
A) The two articles amount to only one piece of evidence,as i) they are written by the same person - a well-know conservative health policy writer formerly with the Washington Times, and now with Washington Examiner - and ii) there is only one piece of evidence cited between two
751:
Someone who helps to author legislation is not going to be described as strictly an academic - he's a health economist, and obviously a politically active one. If you don't like his politics, there are plenty of forums online to complain about them. This is not the place to do so.
1464:
2. I imagine I have something to learn about what counts as "analysis" - certainly it surprises me that reading the item and noticing that it provides no examples of Gruber describing himself and or allowimg himself to be introduced as an "architect" of the ACA counts as
1420:
I don't know anything about how to get the dispute resolution process underway, but I would like to. I'd be happy to try to figure it out from the documentation, and then touch base with you to check my understanding of it before proceeding, if you don't
1292:
At this point, obviously, I will not restore my version if it is reverted again, but this would be a good opportunity for me to learn about the dispute resolution mechanism here, and that would help me get answers to the questions I asked above.
1330:(Discretionary Sanctions) directly as a BLP, and also partially as an article involving US politics. This makes things much more touchy, and edit warring etc can lead to swift sanctions (I do not mean this as a threat, but just as fair warning)
1543:
you are correct that the evidence is stronger as to claiming architect of romneycare than obamacare, but earlier you said that architect and writer were synonyms, and there is plenty of evidence where he claims to have written portions of ACA.
1460:
1. "But" in the Hill quote is an unambiguous signal in English: it means that the the author is offering an answer to D. above, and that answer is: "Yes, apparently so, unless there is some kind of other explanation for the evidence adduced
837:
the world over in the last 40yrs due to easier access to higher caloric foods. Tobacco related illnesses effect 25.2% of the population at some time prior to death. Making lifestyle choices and diet the overwhelming cause of ill health.
1048:
contradicts various statements that Gruber had previously made, but produces no examples of Gruber claiming to have drafted the RomneyCare bill or describing himself as any kind of architect - let alone a key architect - of Obamacare.
1142:
Politico article favorable to Gruber which states that he described himself as the architect of obamacare, and specifically provides examples of his own PR firm describing him that way (examples of both obamacare and romney care)
153:
1355:
There are other secondary sources that also state that he was described that way, and that he was described that way. (You say the same author, but hill was written by Jesse Byrnes, and politico was written by Paige
1530:. With multiple sources making the same assertion of prior statements by gruber its probably sufficient to say it in Knowledge's voice as a fact (or at least in a way that includes more voices than just the hills).
1472:
resolution, because the policy is clearly defective. There has to be some kind of line between "analysis" and elementary fact-checking. If there is no such line, then I assume the potential for abuse is obvious.
1640:
1202:"At the House Oversight Committee hearing on Tuesday, Gruber said in prepared remarks, “I did not draft Governor Romney’s health care plan, and I was not the 'architect' of President Obama’s health care plan.”
364:
1426:
I have to say, most of your argument seems to be describing an entirely different claim than the one I making - perhaps one about the hypothetical section I suggested, one concerned with questions like:
1680:
1635:
710:
estimate, is about four million people. In return, we'll have a fixed system where over 30 million people will now for the first time be able to access fairly price and guaranteed health insurance."
1599:
1070:
Congress to translate the lessons from Massachusetts onto the national stage,” Gruber wrote in an April 2012 op-ed after former Gov. Mitt Romney signed the state's healthcare reform into law.
720:
Clearly this is evidence of his blatant politicking - coupled with the earlier revelations about his dual work for the Obama administration while pretending to be just an unbiased economist.
1375:
Gruber's official bio, used for speaking events for several years, lists him as “a key architect” of healthcare reform in Massachusetts and a “technical consultant” on the federal law."
1165:
548:
147:
1446:
D. Did his Congressional testimony contradict things he has said elsewhere, or allowed others to say about him in material he should or could reasonably be held responsible for?
870:
359:
274:
212:
44:
1218:
As far as the video is concerned, it merely seems to be the hook to get the article published. Even so, I expected to see evidence in the article of Gruber being introduced
565:
1645:
1241:
would certainly be on point. However, interestingly, I would have similar problems citing the two Politico pieces that I have with the hill.com piece we are discussing.
997:
1211:
But in numerous speeches, lectures and TV interviews in the past four years, Gruber has been introduced as the “architect” of the Massachusetts law and/or ObamaCare."
1675:
591:
601:
928:
The last sense in the Controversy Section doesn't track well. Perhaps the author could recast it for greater clarity. There seems to be a time-line confusion.
631:
him, other than his MIT information pages and this Knowledge article. Is being an employee of a university notability by itself? I will dig a little deeper. --
1171:
1625:
217:
1235:
The author produced no examples of either. (To be clear, by the way, the "controversy" in play here is about Obamacare, so B is much more important then A.)
1685:
1670:
1660:
555:
459:
200:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
1394:
ambitious health reform effort” who “consulted extensively with the Obama administration and Congress during the development of the Affordable Care Act.”
469:
79:
560:
1665:
1655:
1650:
1630:
1166:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/jon-gruber-on-obamacare-premium-support-and-health-policy-dreams/2012/05/21/gIQAT2EofU_blog.html
316:
192:
1271:
1352:
his retractions are CYA or not, but the historical facts (that he was described that way by himself and others) are seriously not in dispute.
871:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/11/13/obamacare_architect_genetic_lottery_winners_have_been_paying_an_artificially_low_price.html
85:
1603:
844:
730:
435:
320:
1111:
You are making a strawman, and moving the goalposts. "But in numerous speeches, lectures and TV interviews in the past four years, Gruber
1024:
909:
531:
492:
168:
1326:
is not usable in this case as there are area already more than 2 editors involved. Also, you should be aware that this topic is under
893:
543:
324:
135:
1002:
998:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/11/14/did-jonathan-gruber-earn-almost-400000-from-the-obama-administration/
955:
1225:
A) as the "drafter", or at least the "writer" (though wrt to legislation, writer means "architect" to professionals) of RomneyCare,
315:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
1154:
1399:
In addition to the sources in my previous comment which buttress the assertions that he was described by himself and others thus.
816:
If you're going to judge people for being sick, you need to be better educated on medical science and socio-economic realities.
993:"it’s safe to say that about $ 400,000 appears to be the standard rate for gaining access to the Gruber Microsimulation Model."
426:
387:
311:
269:
99:
30:
1144:
1577:
104:
20:
1172:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/11/in-a-new-video-jon-gruber-boasted-that-he-helped-write-obamacare/
1045:"I did not draft Governor Romney’s health care plan, and I was not the 'architect' of President Obama’s health care plan.”
539:
on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
129:
1372:, worked closely with the Administration and Congress to translate the lessons from Massachusetts onto the national stage,
963:
418:
74:
1120:. The claim is that he was introduced that way. That claim is in fact demonstrably true. Your analysis of the article is
244:
125:
65:
24:
1526:
described himself in a way that supports the hills assertion. Currently we put the assertion in the Hill's voice per
973:
For deceiving the American people, Gruber appears to have earned around 5 million dollars. With these four states:
1477:
1298:
1267:
1096:
1054:
1378:(from the bio in question) From 2003-2006 he was a key architect of Massachusetts’ ambitious health reform effort
669:
175:
848:
1607:
734:
232:
1436:
C. Has a he described himself anywhere as drafting or writing or being the architect of any parts of the ACA?
1028:
913:
897:
821:
766:
201:
109:
1494:
1473:
1294:
1263:
1108:
1092:
1050:
1527:
1468:
3. The two Politico pieces were written by Paige Cunningham (I'm not sure what you meant by "ironically").
1335:
1078:
1006:
959:
933:
250:
141:
1348:
His statement to congress and the "but" are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true at the same time.
1160:
929:
627:
Mr. Gruber, but a cursory search does not turn up much in the way of third-party notability resources
1259:
905:
889:
840:
726:
665:
523:
211:. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
1334:
the secondary is not required to provide any proof of their assertions. They made the statement, we
1020:
This page seems to be edit protected, but doesn't display the padlock to reflect that. What gives?
684:
651:
636:
161:
55:
434:
on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1549:
1407:
1181:
1129:
817:
762:
215:.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see
70:
507:
486:
349:
1155:
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/jonathan-gruber-obamacare-insurance-subsidies-109383.html
1042:
An article from the Hill claims that this statement made by Gruber to a Congressional hearing:
51:
1074:
303:
1145:
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/obamacare-jonathan-gruber-architect-112886_Page2.html
664:, it is one of the top universities in the World. Gruber is a well-known health economist.
208:
1611:
1553:
1481:
1411:
1311:
Yes, the problem is that your assertions are analysis of the secondary source, which is
1302:
1275:
1185:
1133:
1100:
1082:
1058:
1032:
1010:
937:
917:
852:
825:
738:
688:
673:
655:
640:
680:
647:
632:
1619:
1545:
1417:
1403:
1319:
1191:
1177:
1125:
536:
1318:
As for dispute resolution, if this is intractable, the next step would either be an
1430:
A. Was Gruber a key architect of the ACA? Or if not, one of a number of architects?
1327:
1323:
1312:
1121:
402:
381:
1390:
The back cover of his 2011 comic book explaining healthcare reform says he was
287:
263:
950:
513:
408:
293:
431:
1433:
B. Did he draft any parts of the ACA? Did he draft any parts of RomneyCare?
535:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
1091:
It is a serious matter to accuse someone of lying under oath to Congress.
412:
1088:
macroeconomic computer model to help the Finance Committee make choices.
1255:
C) They were both written after the controversy was already underway.
1443:
Whereas I am addressing this question, in light of the Hill article:
1161:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/03/29/business/29gruber.html
323:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
1252:
B) The one piece of evidence she cites does not support her claim.
646:
I have added a couple footnotes and cited them in the text. --
1359:
You say you don't see evidence of A or B in the hill article.
226:
207:
from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
184:
15:
348:
1341:
but they did provide evidence, and you have not addressed
1124:
unless you can find a source that is critiquing the hill.
1641:
High-importance biography (science and academia) articles
703:
Note these rather left-wing comments by Jonathan Gruber:
160:
1681:
Start-Class United States articles of High-importance
1636:
Start-Class biography (science and academia) articles
1370:
architects of Massachusetts reform, including myself
1038:
Gruber House testimony called false without evidence
430:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
1381:worked with both the Administration and Congress
943:President Obama's high praise for Jonathan Gruber
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1385:the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
1067:
1023:"contradicted a promised that Obama had made".
942:
780:offensive and completely incorrect response.
623:I have found several online articles written
174:
8:
951:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6yoHcOhF0U
230:
1578:"Gruber on ObamaCare: 'I helped write it'"
1362:I'm going to describe it objectively, but
1116:writing the legislation). But in any case
838:
481:
376:
258:
1195:and the following quote from the article:
699:Overly political for someone in academia?
1646:Science and academia work group articles
679:to tag established articles. Thanks. --
1568:
863:
483:
378:
260:
1676:High-importance United States articles
1228:B) and as an "architect" of Obamacare.
1345:you think their evidence is incorrect
7:
1064:Excerpt from the cited Hill article:
529:This article is within the scope of
424:This article is within the scope of
309:This article is within the scope of
1626:Biography articles of living people
1576:Byrnes, Jesse (December 10, 2014).
576:Knowledge:WikiProject United States
360:the science and academia work group
249:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
1686:WikiProject United States articles
1671:Start-Class United States articles
1661:High-importance Economics articles
1392:a key architect of Massachusetts's
579:Template:WikiProject United States
14:
516:
506:
485:
411:
401:
380:
296:
286:
262:
231:
190:This article must adhere to the
45:Click here to start a new topic.
900:) 22:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
596:This article has been rated as
464:This article has been rated as
444:Knowledge:WikiProject Economics
333:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography
1666:WikiProject Economics articles
1656:Start-Class Economics articles
1651:WikiProject Biography articles
1631:Start-Class biography articles
717:more bad behavior - surprise!
447:Template:WikiProject Economics
336:Template:WikiProject Biography
1:
1118:that is not what the claim is
1033:19:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
1011:03:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
964:00:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
938:15:11, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
918:22:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
739:04:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
689:21:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
674:04:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
656:16:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
641:16:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
438:and see a list of open tasks.
419:Business and economics portal
357:This article is supported by
193:biographies of living persons
42:Put new text under old text.
826:21:00, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
321:contribute to the discussion
205:must be removed immediately
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
25:Jonathan Gruber (economist)
1702:
1602:mentioned in the article.
602:project's importance scale
470:project's importance scale
1149:Ironically, same author,
853:08:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
595:
532:WikiProject United States
501:
463:
396:
356:
281:
257:
80:Be welcoming to newcomers
1612:01:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
1554:12:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1482:04:39, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1412:03:11, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1303:02:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1276:03:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1186:00:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
1134:23:47, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
1101:04:55, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
1083:03:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
1059:03:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
537:United States of America
1322:and then DR/mediation.
1453:Finally, a few points:
1113:has been introduced as
1072:
995:
582:United States articles
353:
239:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
991:
985:Wisconsin: $ 400,000
979:Minnesota: $ 329,000
427:WikiProject Economics
352:
312:WikiProject Biography
100:Neutral point of view
1170:"I helped write it"
976:Michigan: $ 481,050
769:) 03:29, 23 November
524:United States portal
275:Science and Academia
105:No original research
1594:Invoice Controversy
982:Vermont: $ 400,000
924:Controversy Section
550:Articles Requested!
723:Shameful really.
450:Economics articles
354:
339:biography articles
245:content assessment
86:dispute resolution
47:
1364:I helped write it
1279:
1262:comment added by
908:comment added by
892:comment added by
855:
843:comment added by
729:comment added by
616:
615:
612:
611:
608:
607:
480:
479:
476:
475:
375:
374:
371:
370:
225:
224:
183:
182:
66:Assume good faith
43:
1693:
1586:
1585:
1573:
1495:KennethJohnKelly
1308:A few answers.
1278:
1264:KennethJohnKelly
1256:
1109:KennethJohnKelly
1016:Edit Protection?
969:Follow the money
920:
901:
873:
868:
741:
660:MIT is not just
584:
583:
580:
577:
574:
526:
521:
520:
519:
510:
503:
502:
497:
489:
482:
452:
451:
448:
445:
442:
421:
416:
415:
405:
398:
397:
392:
384:
377:
341:
340:
337:
334:
331:
317:join the project
306:
304:Biography portal
301:
300:
299:
290:
283:
282:
277:
266:
259:
242:
236:
235:
227:
213:this noticeboard
185:
179:
178:
164:
95:Article policies
16:
1701:
1700:
1696:
1695:
1694:
1692:
1691:
1690:
1616:
1615:
1596:
1591:
1590:
1589:
1575:
1574:
1570:
1528:WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV
1368:Several of the
1336:WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV
1257:
1153:him architect.
1040:
1018:
971:
945:
926:
903:
887:
883:
878:
877:
876:
869:
865:
724:
701:
666:Masterpiece2000
621:
598:High-importance
581:
578:
575:
572:
571:
570:
556:Become a Member
522:
517:
515:
496:High‑importance
495:
466:High-importance
449:
446:
443:
440:
439:
417:
410:
391:High‑importance
390:
365:High-importance
338:
335:
332:
329:
328:
302:
297:
295:
272:
243:on Knowledge's
240:
121:
116:
115:
114:
91:
61:
12:
11:
5:
1699:
1697:
1689:
1688:
1683:
1678:
1673:
1668:
1663:
1658:
1653:
1648:
1643:
1638:
1633:
1628:
1618:
1617:
1604:198.52.130.137
1595:
1592:
1588:
1587:
1567:
1566:
1562:
1561:
1560:
1559:
1558:
1557:
1556:
1536:
1535:
1534:
1533:
1532:
1531:
1518:
1517:
1516:
1515:
1514:
1513:
1504:
1503:
1502:
1501:
1500:
1499:
1487:
1486:
1485:
1484:
1469:
1466:
1462:
1455:
1454:
1450:
1449:
1448:
1447:
1440:
1439:
1438:
1437:
1434:
1431:
1423:
1422:
1401:
1400:
1397:
1396:
1395:
1388:
1387:
1386:
1379:
1373:
1366:
1357:
1353:
1349:
1346:
1339:
1306:
1305:
1289:
1288:
1283:
1282:
1281:
1280:
1253:
1250:
1243:
1242:
1237:
1236:
1232:
1231:
1230:
1229:
1226:
1220:
1219:
1215:
1214:
1213:
1212:
1206:
1205:
1204:
1203:
1197:
1196:
1175:
1174:
1168:
1163:
1159:Introduced as
1157:
1151:introducing as
1147:
1139:
1138:
1137:
1136:
1066:
1065:
1039:
1036:
1017:
1014:
970:
967:
944:
941:
925:
922:
882:
879:
875:
874:
862:
861:
857:
845:71.224.251.239
835:
833:
832:
831:
830:
829:
828:
809:
808:
807:
806:
805:
804:
795:
794:
793:
792:
791:
790:
778:
773:
772:
771:
770:
755:
754:
753:
752:
744:
731:171.101.191.10
700:
697:
696:
695:
694:
693:
692:
691:
620:
617:
614:
613:
610:
609:
606:
605:
594:
588:
587:
585:
569:
568:
563:
558:
553:
546:
544:Template Usage
540:
528:
527:
511:
499:
498:
490:
478:
477:
474:
473:
462:
456:
455:
453:
436:the discussion
423:
422:
406:
394:
393:
385:
373:
372:
369:
368:
355:
345:
344:
342:
308:
307:
291:
279:
278:
267:
255:
254:
248:
237:
223:
222:
218:this help page
202:poorly sourced
188:
181:
180:
118:
117:
113:
112:
107:
102:
93:
92:
90:
89:
82:
77:
68:
62:
60:
59:
48:
39:
38:
35:
34:
28:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1698:
1687:
1684:
1682:
1679:
1677:
1674:
1672:
1669:
1667:
1664:
1662:
1659:
1657:
1654:
1652:
1649:
1647:
1644:
1642:
1639:
1637:
1634:
1632:
1629:
1627:
1624:
1623:
1621:
1614:
1613:
1609:
1605:
1601:
1593:
1583:
1579:
1572:
1569:
1565:
1555:
1551:
1547:
1542:
1541:
1540:
1539:
1538:
1537:
1529:
1524:
1523:
1522:
1521:
1520:
1519:
1510:
1509:
1508:
1507:
1506:
1505:
1496:
1493:
1492:
1491:
1490:
1489:
1488:
1483:
1479:
1475:
1470:
1467:
1463:
1459:
1458:
1457:
1456:
1452:
1451:
1445:
1444:
1442:
1441:
1435:
1432:
1429:
1428:
1425:
1424:
1419:
1416:
1415:
1414:
1413:
1409:
1405:
1398:
1393:
1389:
1384:
1383:to help craft
1380:
1377:
1376:
1374:
1371:
1367:
1365:
1361:
1360:
1358:
1354:
1350:
1347:
1344:
1340:
1337:
1333:
1332:
1331:
1329:
1325:
1321:
1316:
1314:
1309:
1304:
1300:
1296:
1291:
1290:
1285:
1284:
1277:
1273:
1269:
1265:
1261:
1254:
1251:
1247:
1246:
1245:
1244:
1239:
1238:
1234:
1233:
1227:
1224:
1223:
1222:
1221:
1217:
1216:
1210:
1209:
1208:
1207:
1201:
1200:
1199:
1198:
1193:
1190:
1189:
1188:
1187:
1183:
1179:
1173:
1169:
1167:
1164:
1162:
1158:
1156:
1152:
1148:
1146:
1141:
1140:
1135:
1131:
1127:
1123:
1119:
1114:
1110:
1107:
1106:
1105:
1104:
1103:
1102:
1098:
1094:
1089:
1085:
1084:
1080:
1076:
1071:
1063:
1062:
1061:
1060:
1056:
1052:
1046:
1043:
1037:
1035:
1034:
1030:
1026:
1025:67.161.69.249
1021:
1015:
1013:
1012:
1008:
1004:
1000:
999:
994:
990:
986:
983:
980:
977:
974:
968:
966:
965:
961:
957:
953:
952:
948:
940:
939:
935:
931:
923:
921:
919:
915:
911:
910:85.195.87.250
907:
899:
895:
891:
880:
872:
867:
864:
860:
856:
854:
850:
846:
842:
827:
823:
819:
818:CleverTitania
815:
814:
813:
812:
811:
810:
801:
800:
799:
798:
797:
796:
787:
786:
785:
784:
783:
782:
781:
776:
768:
764:
763:CleverTitania
759:
758:
757:
756:
749:
748:
747:
746:
745:
742:
740:
736:
732:
728:
721:
718:
714:
711:
707:
704:
698:
690:
686:
682:
677:
676:
675:
671:
667:
663:
659:
658:
657:
653:
649:
645:
644:
643:
642:
638:
634:
630:
626:
618:
603:
599:
593:
590:
589:
586:
573:United States
567:
564:
562:
559:
557:
554:
552:
551:
547:
545:
542:
541:
538:
534:
533:
525:
514:
512:
509:
505:
504:
500:
494:
493:United States
491:
488:
484:
471:
467:
461:
458:
457:
454:
437:
433:
429:
428:
420:
414:
409:
407:
404:
400:
399:
395:
389:
386:
383:
379:
366:
363:(assessed as
362:
361:
351:
347:
346:
343:
326:
325:documentation
322:
318:
314:
313:
305:
294:
292:
289:
285:
284:
280:
276:
271:
268:
265:
261:
256:
252:
246:
238:
234:
229:
228:
220:
219:
214:
210:
206:
203:
199:
195:
194:
189:
187:
186:
177:
173:
170:
167:
163:
159:
155:
152:
149:
146:
143:
140:
137:
134:
131:
127:
124:
123:Find sources:
120:
119:
111:
110:Verifiability
108:
106:
103:
101:
98:
97:
96:
87:
83:
81:
78:
76:
72:
69:
67:
64:
63:
57:
53:
52:Learn to edit
49:
46:
41:
40:
37:
36:
32:
26:
22:
18:
17:
1597:
1581:
1571:
1563:
1402:
1391:
1382:
1369:
1363:
1356:Cunningham?)
1342:
1317:
1310:
1307:
1258:— Preceding
1176:
1150:
1117:
1112:
1090:
1086:
1073:
1068:
1047:
1044:
1041:
1022:
1019:
1001:
996:
992:
987:
984:
981:
978:
975:
972:
954:
949:
946:
927:
904:— Preceding
894:75.85.160.34
888:— Preceding
884:
866:
858:
839:— Preceding
834:
777:
774:
743:
725:— Preceding
722:
719:
715:
712:
708:
705:
702:
662:a university
661:
628:
624:
622:
597:
561:Project Talk
549:
530:
465:
425:
358:
310:
251:WikiProjects
216:
204:
197:
191:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
1598:Didn't see
1465:"analysis".
1338:it to them.
1075:Arbor to SJ
1003:96.59.92.70
956:96.59.92.70
930:CRK-Wenonah
775:2014 (UTC)
241:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1620:Categories
1564:References
859:References
619:Notability
1249:articles.
902:Agreed.
886:he has?
881:Biography
681:KingNewbs
648:KingNewbs
633:KingNewbs
441:Economics
432:Economics
388:Economics
330:Biography
270:Biography
209:libellous
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1582:The Hill
1546:Gaijin42
1418:Gaijin42
1404:Gaijin42
1272:contribs
1260:unsigned
1192:Gaijin42
1178:Gaijin42
1126:Gaijin42
906:unsigned
890:unsigned
841:unsigned
727:unsigned
713:Source:
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1474:kjkelly
1295:kjkelly
1093:kjkelly
1051:kjkelly
600:on the
468:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1461:here."
1320:WP:RFC
566:Alerts
247:scale.
126:Google
1421:mind.
1328:WP:DS
1324:WP:3O
1313:WP:OR
1122:WP:OR
629:about
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1608:talk
1600:this
1550:talk
1478:talk
1408:talk
1299:talk
1268:talk
1182:talk
1130:talk
1097:talk
1079:talk
1055:talk
1029:talk
1007:talk
960:talk
934:talk
914:talk
898:talk
849:talk
822:talk
767:talk
735:talk
685:talk
670:talk
652:talk
637:talk
592:High
460:High
319:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1343:why
198:BLP
176:TWL
1622::
1610:)
1580:.
1552:)
1480:)
1410:)
1301:)
1274:)
1270:•
1184:)
1132:)
1099:)
1081:)
1057:)
1031:)
1009:)
962:)
936:)
916:)
851:)
824:)
737:)
687:)
672:)
654:)
639:)
625:by
367:).
273::
156:)
54:;
1606:(
1584:.
1548:(
1476:(
1406:(
1297:(
1266:(
1180:(
1128:(
1095:(
1077:(
1053:(
1027:(
1005:(
958:(
932:(
912:(
896:(
847:(
820:(
765:(
733:(
683:(
668:(
650:(
635:(
604:.
472:.
327:.
253::
221:.
196:(
172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
145:·
139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
