Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Operation Onymous

Source 📝

428: 410: 438: 318: 297: 328: 814: 249: 266: 190: 516:. It probably shouldn't be included here if this page isn't linked, but I'm not sure where it would fit best. Doesn't seem to make sense at the top or bottom, and a row for something other than a hidden service would likewise be out of place. I might say that unless there are other once-removed pages about hidden services, the navbox should probably go? --— 1065:
So far I just see a struggling journalist trying to make a name for himself, who by claiming to have done some research "based on a web crawl" (couldn't the Tor Project have managed that, then?) gets himself mentioned in a couple more articles. I'm going to go ahead and remove his research from the
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I'm seeing a double standard at play here. Are you suggesting the misleading figures from law enforcement should be given more weight than from someone who have methodologically and transparently provided expert analysis? Because I disagree, I very much side with Cubrilovic's analysis both in terms
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Yes it contradicts the information released, because this was the only methodological transparent study done, all the other information released was hyperbole eventually parred down to something close to accurate. This is why the list of cloned sites on this Knowledge (XXG) page is the best on the
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Now I'm happy to beat this quote into an acceptable shape, because I'm trying to work out what the broad consensus is about the technical capabilities that were employed as there's a fair bit of speculation out there. This BBC quote I can trace back no further, hence me attibuting this directly to
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That sounds good. Just to clarify, when I said I would support including the research I meant including mention/discussion of it, not reproducing the list. His research on its own wouldn't have been enough, but since it was picked up by other reliable secondary sources I think it's good enough as
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On Friday, Europol said co-ordinated raids between 16 European countries and the US had resulted in "410 hidden services being taken down". It later clarified this, stating that while 400-plus pages were closed, many were pointing to the same hidden illegal services - the pages had belonged to 27
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and then goes on to quote Lewman of the Tor project "When they say they've busted 400-something, you expect 400-something to have actually been busted. And it doesn't seem that's the case. What they've said was, 'Oh no, we've broken apart 400. And no, now it's 50. Now it's 27. And... maybe it's
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I don't think there's anything to say about them except Silk Road, no one cares about the other ones. Their unimportance is their only feature anyone reported on/mentioned, I think. Which makes it futile (and difficult), IMO. It would only be at best an indiscriminate and incomplete list, ie
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I don't see anything yet indicating that he is a "respected researcher". He has had a number of articles published, including in Huff Post, Guardian so he's definitely a journalist. The only other article I can find so far that mentions the research you included in this WP article, in Wired
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I admit that is possible. I have emailed the second journalist asking whether the original quote still stands or was superseded by his piece which was more speculative because these different positions were never reconciled within the BBC. I may return to this if I get a response from him.
1304:, the findings may be viewed as..." There has been no "corroboration", as far as I'm aware. It seems that Cubrilovic is a journalist with a few articles about internet stuff published in on-line news sources, who gained some extra exposure from the articles about his research listed above. 762:
What's an alternative approach? I think the full statement conveys their sentiment well. Bear in mind, Interpol are deliberately playing the media with these statements, however I don't have a source on this fact. Letting the quote speak for itself is best IMO, and why I included it.
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the original Pink Meth citation, now you're saying the list should't exist because you're not happy with Cubrilovic and Co's research still? Just tell me what inclusion criteria is acceptable to you so I can include as much as possible without you complaining about it please.
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What has been put together his far from any career enhancing blog. It's a detailed analysis comprised of multiple key sources combined with a respectable crawling methodology. There is no superior source to this, and it's coverage in mainstream media reflects its quality
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The way we would typically handle what to include from a long list it to see what we have sources for as well as what's notable. I think if we have reliable sources for any that we have an article about, it's worth including in a single sentence list. —
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I just noticed an account called Cubrilovic edited the article himself, so I'll just return the article to how it was before that, since almost nothing apart from his supposed research, and a list of supposed websites based on it, has been added since.
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Now you may argue this is an outright lie, but it's an important attributable statement which deserves inclusion. I would recommend up-playing the rebuttals to this rather than downplaying this statement from law enforcement because they may be lying.
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Apart from changing the order of the sentences in the first paragraph - apparently for no reason - there was one short paragraph of speculations about theoretical Tor attacks, couched in technical language, but there's little or no relevance to the
1413:, the findings may be viewed as..." Knowledge (XXG)'s bar is higher, not lower. Therefore the findings cannot be viewed here, period. Although, as I said, I'm not opposed to providing an external link, so I don't see why that's a problem. 1229:"Research published later in November 17th based on a crawl of all onion sites was able to partially confirm the statistics from law enforcement, discovering 276 seized sites, of which 153 were scam, clone or phishing sites." 1427:
Ok, I've edited it down to "Australian journalist Nik Cubrilovic claimed to have discovered 276 seized sites, based on a crawl of all onion sites, of which 153 were scam, clone or phishing sites." which is fair. I think the
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I wouldn't be surpised if these two paragraphs are true and are easily supported with some citations. Perhaps we can start by finding some? I feel like reworking the language will come naturally once everything is cited.
1519:, the fact the Cannabis Road forums were only the forums not a market, the fake marketplaces and fake Wikileaks and Islamist sites are all of internet. How about I report only these items rather than the full list eh? 153: 551:
The first paragraph of the section uses language that suggests that the operation was less successful than government agencies said it was, and this paragraph does not cite anything that to say this more directly.
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of accuracy and in terms of the notability as given by the further press coverage it received. Also you have a valid point on the COI which he should not have done, however I support the inclusion none the less.
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Let's say they're simply wrong or misleading. I believe it's notable that the BBC said this as many media outlets were saying similar things. As a result I think it should be included. May a reword or some kind?
1034:, the findings may be viewed as good news for privacy advocates..." A primary source needs some independent corroboration, at the very least, or it cannot be relied upon. Is there any independent corroboration? 777:
Since you've added a ToC, there should be a new section focusing on the extent of the exaggerated police claims throughout. There's a couple of sources I just noticed (haven't read them yet) which should help:
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I follow Tor etc pretty closely, and the story of 'it could have been XYZ' is very much a part of the story, hence so much media speculation. But, I seperated out the speculation from the facts deliberately!
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Let's assume good faith on the part of Cubriliobc: Then, are we saying that Europol suddenly wanted to downplay the success of their own operation, days after going to great lengths to grossly exaggerate it?
1070:, without which we're all just writing a blog. It'll still be in the history if you find some compelling evidence that this is more than just a career enhancement for a nobody (which is what it looks like). 392: 1387:
Again, the "research" is very little more than a categorised list of defunct websites. "@1mp0ster, @lamoustache - expert researchers in dark web matters", you claim - but provide no evidence for this.
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All other sources have been quoting law enforcement sources, he's the only one did the first hand research. Hence the inclusion of all figures as the different figures reported is a part of the story
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What clearly happened there is that the Interpol press guy spread the word about their omnipotence, and the bbc guy gladly lapped it up. This kind of rumour has no place in an encyclopaedia article.
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I've not seen any reason why his claimed research should be regarded as accurate or reliable, although it may well be a genuine effort. If it was from a team at a university or wherever, we'd say
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A quote isn't required, for one thing. It's a PR statement, designed for inclusion in newspaper articles. Putting it unqualified into this article is completely arbitrary and unhelpful.
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Looking for "language" that "suggests" anything, I can't find anything - except, I suppose, the word "just", which is used to "suggest" that 27 is significantly less than 400.
241: 147: 784:. Probably more besides. The quote could certainly go there. But in the context of "Tor exploit speculation", it's misleading, as I said. So I think it should go for now. 1181:"a detailed analysis". Or what you mean by "multiple key sources". Also, "coverage in mainstream media" is not how I would describe a brief mention in online tech sites. 629:
The BBC understands that the raid represented both a technological breakthrough - with police using new techniques to track down the physical location of dark net servers
1777: 382: 977:- or a self-published, self-styled "security researcher" linked in one Forbes article, which doesn't even get its facts remotely right? Am I missing something here? 1558:"On 5 and 6 November 2014, a number of websites, initially claimed to be over 400, were shut down including drug markets such as Silk Road 2.0, Cloud 9 and Hydra. 1243: 340: 1792: 1782: 1772: 484: 79: 1637:. Re "fake marketplaces and fake Wikileaks and Islamist sites" - Cubrilovic's blog could be briefly summarised, I was intending to get around to that myself. 726:"this is something we want to keep for ourselves. The way we do this, we can’t share with the whole world, because we want to do it again and again and again" 1560:
Unless there is more than one brief mention in one DeepDotWeb article - and I think it's clear by now that there isn't - any more than that is just totally
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It looks like some of the items on the list have other sources, though. Maybe those well documented ones could be included in prose rather than a list. —
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long as we're not making claims beyond what those secondary sources picked up (in effect what "claimed" does here and "if corroborated" does in Wired). —
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Sure thing, but reproducing the list from his blog took us no closer to a brief summary of his findings - ie a summary of the bit in his blog where
1556:, only three - Doxbin, Pink Meth and "Cannabis Road Forums" have cites other than Nik Cubrilovic. These are covered by the statement in the article 345: 302: 85: 779: 1797: 1787: 460: 1315:
I'd not be opposed in principle to allowing an External link to his website, but i don't know where Wp stands on self-promotion in general.
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inclusion, but we should include secondary sources as well -- we wouldn't include it if it were only this one primary source. It looks like
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I agree Forbes contradicts the source. I'm taking the forbes citation for the notability and the source article for the accurate figures
1251: 1707: 1227:"Warrants inclusion" is kind of vague. Is this sentence, for which it is currently used in the article, the major point of contention: 576:
If you think anything is not supported by RS please be more specific. I am unsure of exactly what is meant here, by Original research.
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but it's by a completely different journalist to the original, possibly unaware that the BBC has already presented it's own theory.
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Of course people care about the other ones, that's why they have their own citations because they have their own notable coverage.
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I removed your addition of Pink Meth to the above-quoted sentence in the article because, as I said in my Edit summarry, it's
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questioning whether you've read the research, I'm going to break down simple the introductory paragraph and put it here:
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Good point. Law enforcement is pretty much irrelevant to Tor services. I tend to agree with you, I'll remove it for now.
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net, because of all the contradictions around. Just paraphrase the information as contradictory, don't remove it.
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actually less than that.'" So, who's right, then? The BBC, countless other news orgs, the Tor project and
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describes him as "Australia-based blogger Nik Cubrilovic" - confidence-inspiring. And it goes on to say, "
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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still has to go, since it's either unsourced, or sourced to Nik Cubrilovic's unverified personal blog.
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warrants inclusion or not, I think it's best we get some additional editors to weigh in at this point
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The second paragraph is original research about the relative ineffectiveness of the operation.
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of Operation Onymous, since there's precisely zero evidence that any such methods were used (
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https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=Nik+Cubrilovic
1286:(presumably the same guy), since when the account has been dormant. Then it was expanded by 925:
No, the WP article! The previous sentence in fact. Which is well-sourced, from multiple RS.
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describes Cubrilovic as "Australia-based blogger Nik Cubrilovic", and follows with "
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I have undone this, reimplementing your other changes so as not to be antagonistic.
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Forbes cites the same source saying "around 50 actual sites were knocked offline."
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Added dates to the prose to better illustrate the changing figures the time line
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I'm concerned you're not reading the research here. Please read just this page.
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Finally of course, Nik himself who often writes and consults on such matters
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about that quote, they seem to moderately support the BBC's conclusions
1595: 1512: 1313:"According to Australian blogger and journalist Nik Cubrilovic ..." 1697: 1340: 1336:* @1mp0ster, @lamoustache - expert researchers in dark web matters 1357:
definitive underground site guide and source of inside reporting
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http://www.wired.com/2014/11/operation-onymous-dark-web-arrests/
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Combined with the various citations posted previously by
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Please move things about before removing them then :p
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Nik Cubrilovic is a respected researcher and reporter
240:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at 160: 1391:
doesn't have coach-and-four-horse sized exemptions.
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Template:Did you know nominations/Operation Onymous
174: 489:This article has not yet received a rating on the 1278:.The sentence "Research published later ..." was 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 965: 724: 627: 1311:In this case, we'd have to say something like 854:I don't agree with your removal of this link: 512:Thoughts on how to incorporate this page into 238:Knowledge (XXG):Recent additions/2014/December 1208:and I are close to edit warring over whether 8: 1309:"According to a team of researchers at ..." 1087:https://www.nikcub.com/posts/onymous-part1/ 367:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Law Enforcement 263: 856:https://www.nikcub.com/posts/onymous-part1 404: 291: 213:). The text of the entry was as follows: 223:Silk Road 3.0 appeared only hours after 1778:Mid-importance Law enforcement articles 1704:2405:ACC0:1100:9B75:4907:9BD6:5608:C020 1350:- darknet market analyst extraordinaire 406: 293: 248: 1228: 1768:Knowledge (XXG) Did you know articles 968:individual services that were seized. 236:A record of the entry may be seen at 7: 1793:Unknown-importance Internet articles 1783:WikiProject Law Enforcement articles 1773:Start-Class Law enforcement articles 469:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Internet 449:This article is within the scope of 370:Template:WikiProject Law Enforcement 1258:all picked up Cubrilovic's work. — 282:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1594:The only one with a Wp article is 1430:Operation_Onymous#Seized_site_list 1292:Operation_Onymous#Seized_site_list 643:discussion on the Tor mailing list 14: 1727:2A00:5400:F002:CDDD:1:2:CFCF:EC67 781:- probably not RS but still; and 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 812: 436: 426: 408: 326: 316: 295: 264: 188: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 387:This article has been rated as 975:the FBI themselves and Europol 227:had been shut down as part of 199:appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1: 1798:WikiProject Internet articles 1788:Start-Class Internet articles 1735:17:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC) 1339:* The creator of the popular 586:17:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC) 571:08:15, 24 November 2014 (UTC) 541:14:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC) 526:14:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC) 472:Template:WikiProject Internet 463:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 1373:There is no better research 600:17:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC) 514:Template:Tor hidden services 209:column on 11 December 2014 ( 1679:15:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1661:14:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1647:14:47, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1629:14:42, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1608:14:45, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1590:14:39, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1574:14:31, 30 August 2015 (UTC) 1529:13:48, 30 August 2015 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