2052:. All of you have commented on this RfC or were somehow involved in this matter in the past. In a few days this RfC is coming to itâs natural end, as itâs been going on for almost a month now, while no entries have been made since the 30th of June. For the record I would like to inform you about that. Also, when this thing is settled, I would like to go on with filing a second request to rename the relevant categories, which still stand at âDucth Lionâ. Unless anyone complains I will await the closure of this RfC to do that.
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1967:, I do think that you added a worthwhile argument. I know that the present RfC is limited, but I do believe, to be fair, the information you provided should be taken into consideration. I do understand why you would find the translation "Lion of the Netherlands" odd. It wasn't used historically and it also doesn't depict an adjective followed by a verb, as it is in Dutch. The description, "Order of the Lion of the Netherlands" is sometimes used, but most historical references are to an other name.
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850:: "When the order was established the Kingdom of the Netherlands was bilingual. In the French version of the law the order is called the "Ordre du Lion Belgique" or "Order of the Lion of Belgium". This French term expired later because after 1830 the kingdom was no longer bilingual. The French term in the literature on phaleristics led to misconceptions."
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1798:(not limited to ethnically Dutch areas) with that of the arms of Nassau (in present Germany). And of course there are number of other "Dutch" lions: those of Flanders, Brabant and Holland e.g. So there are good reasons for the Dutch themselves to translate it as Netherlands Lion. The adjective "Dutch" also lacks a certain formality.--
1704:: âDutch Lionâ is of course the literal translation, but it has no standing as an official translation in diplomatic use, which seems important in a category like this. Generally and also historically the word âDutchâ is avoided by the Dutch government as an official English translation for state and diplomatic purposes. See
1768:. There seem to be a lot of sources for the official use of the term âNetherlands Lionâ, while âDutch Lionâ seems to be thin on the ground where official use is concerned, an aspect that again is of some importance to this matter. Alternately the term âOrder of the Lion of the Netherlandsâ has been in use recently.
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I don't think it's a matter of "politically correct" usage, but rather a matter of what was used historically in diplomatic circles. "Netherlandic" is of course strange and has never been used officially. I'm afraid it's not a matter of language, but rather a matter of established diplomatic usage
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I realize that we try to balance the current, "politically correct" usage with actual usage, but "Order of the
Netherlands Lion" does sound very awkward to me, and "Dutch Lion" is the translation I have been accustomed to until very recently and would use verbally and in writing. The problem stems
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I would say that the names of all these examples are equally poor :o) (even though such constructions obviously have existed for a long time) â and, let us be fair, names made up by Dutch institutions who were simply trying to avoid the ambiguity of "Dutch" or the unfamiliarity of "Netherlandish".
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I know it's quaint language, but it's been in use for ages and the article stood at that name for about eight years now. The origin of the lion supposedly comes from the arms of all fiefdoms that formerly were part of the Duchy of Lower-Lotharingia, which indeed also included parts of the German
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from the fact that "Netherlands" isn't an adjective in
English and the correct adjective, "Netherlandic" looks so strange and is so awkward to pronounce for American English speakers (like "Luxembourgish") that I have read it rarely and never heard it spoken aloud. Don't know what to recommend.
2142:. To me, both the "Netherlands Lion", or the now popping up "Lion of the Netherlands" are correct, but it's just a matter of semantics which one. Since there is no firm consensus, I would like keep the article title as it is now. Maybe we could put into the introduction the sentence "The
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replaced all instances of Order of the Dutch Lion with Order of the
Netherlands Lion. Now I'm neutral to this change, but it is a move request, since the name of the article is still Order of the Dutch Lion. If any one feels strongly about this change I propose he requests the change. --
2192:'s suggestion. I have the impression that the use of "Lion of the Netherlands" is a fairly recent development. For the time being we could mention it's usage in the opening sentence of the article, while leaving the title as it is for now, with the more literal and "archaic" form.
675:. In this case it's debatable whether the Flemings are also Dutch. Some say this is indeed the case, others deny this. Nevertheless, the Dutch as ethnic group are more than only the Netherlands, they live in other parts of the world too, like South Africa (the Afrikaners).
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is shown with the Latin title "Belgium
Foederatum". The name of the Order refers to this 'Leo Belgicus'. But after the division of the Low Countries into a southern and a northern half, the name Belgicus is now purely reserved and associated with the state and its name,
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Translating "Nederlandse Leeuw" as "Lion of the
Netherlands" is a bit odd if you'd ask me, but whatever. The current version of lintjes.nl does not appear to have an English version, but indeed its older English version referred to the order as "Netherlands
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Why is "Nederlandse Leeuw" wrongly translated with "Netherlands Lion", and why only in
English, and not in other languages ("Dutch" and "Nederlands" are adjectives while "Netherlands" and "Nederland" are nouns)? "Dutch Lion" should be the right translation.
663:", however this is informal and strictly taken not correct. The same as people sometimes say "I'm from Holland", in which they mean from the Netherlands (but Holland is only a province in the western part of the Netherlands). Dutch may refer to the
701:, etc. etc. So conclusion: if you refer to Dutch as a language or culture, than you are correct. If you refer with Dutch to the country the Netherlands or a institution from the Netherlands, than you are wrong. The latter is poor use of English ;)
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Based on the discussion above and what reliable sources tell us, I still believe the right thing to do is leave this at Order of the
Netherlands Lion. As there is not a firm consensus to move it to Order of the Dutch Lion, it does not move.
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It is not about what sounds good in
English, the official name is "Order of the Netherlands Lion". I think it should be moved to the Order of the Netherlands lion. I think Knowledge (XXG) are the only people who call it the Dutch Lion.
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The French translation given means "The order of the
Belgian lion" - I'm fairly sure that can't be correct, but I know those countries have an involved history and it's just possible I'm mistaken. Dutch people, can you comment?
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I know I might be a bit late to the party, but the reason I replied is that besides
Knowledge (XXG) there arent many sources (beside some non dutch ones) that actually refers to the order as "Netherlands Lion". This website
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may change to the Order of the Lion of the Netherlands since that is what the current government publications are calling it now. However, a quick Google search reveals that this translation has a long history as well:
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Well, if the Chancellary likes to call it this way...But it is still poor English :o) â and "Dutch" obviously functions as an adjective meaning "of the Netherlands". That Flemings are Dutch will surprise many of them
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I think its better to not discuss about calling it a Dutch or Netherlands Lion, but use the name the Chancellery of the Netherlands uses, "The order of the Lion of the Netherlands", as the titel of this page.
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And as regards the question of the correctness of the translation: "Netherlands Lion" is awkward but constructions like these are very old. In 17th century texts it is very common to refer to the "Holland
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did not find any problem with "Netherlands" other than observations that it sounded awkward. But as of now, there is consensus that no move is necessary. The page is currently at the right title.
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Do not change the article name to "Order of the Dutch Lion". The word Dutch is not used in the official English translation, see discussion above and also see
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I've heard that used as well. It seems to be a rather recent development. The official website of the Chancellery of the Netherlands Orders called it
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891:. Netherlands Lion / Nederlandse Leeuw is a modern invention, and the name "Order of the Netherlands Lion" is now the official usage.
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refers to it as "The Order of the Lion of the Netherlands". This is the official website of the Chancellery of the Netherlands.
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The use of "Netherlands" as an adjective is used by translations made by Kingdom of the Netherlands, and is consistent with
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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558:"Netherlands Lion" is simply very poor English; it then should become "Netherlandish Lion" which sounds inane :o).--
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The name "Order of the Dutch Lion" is simply wrong as discussed above and as explained in earlier discussions, see
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Rhineland, but I suppose the reason for the language involved is the Dutch awkwardness with the word "Dutch"...
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Humph, this had fallen off my watchlist. I was going to change it as well. I agree completely with the change.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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It isn't. See earlier talk above. In diplomatic and state usage the word Dutch isn't used. Compare
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And again, "Netherlands Lion" is not poor English, it is the correct English. Other examples are:
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not an order in the whole Dutch world, and definitely not an order for Dutch speaking people.
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that has stood not only in this matter, but in many others, as I've stated above.
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882:" always referred to the entire Low Countries. In a lot of topographic maps the
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is also Dutch. Netherlands refers to a country). I have changed the title name.
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I would say that the arguments for Order of the Netherlands Lion are stronger.
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I propose removing this entire section, as it is essentially a duplication of
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refers to the order as "Order of the Lion of the Netherlands", as does
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Commander Miniature.gif)
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Grand Cross Star.gif)
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Knight Miniature.gif)
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is not particularly "Dutch". It is really a combination of the old
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Commander Star.gif)
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List of members might be included (or in a separate article?). --
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Category:Knights Grand Cross of the Order of the Netherlands Lion
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Female Knight.gif)
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, visit the
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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image page (File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Commander.gif)
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
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File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Commander Miniature.gif
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
577:"Netherlands Lion" is is not simply very poor English, it
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Category:Commanders of the Order of the Netherlands Lion
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Low-importance Orders, decorations, and medals articles
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All Knowledge (XXG) files with unknown copyright status
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File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Grand Cross Star.gif
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All Knowledge (XXG) files with unknown copyright status
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All Knowledge (XXG) files with unknown copyright status
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the Netherlands, that might be where that comes from.
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Category:Knights of the Order of the Netherlands Lion
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Better to rely on the name mentioned on its website.
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since the 16th century. Translated to French this is
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WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals articles
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File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Female Knight.gif
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
391:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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Template:WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals
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this past discussion on the talkpage of the article
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2098:, and Netherlands Lion is by far the most common:
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1428:File:Order of the Netherlands Lion Grand Cross.gif
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678:So, the Order of the Netherlands Lion is only an
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262:This article is within the scope of
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825:The article on the French wiki is
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659:Well, Dutch may refer to "the
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827:Ordre du Lion néerlandais
820:19:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
800:16:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
750:10:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
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1683:Order of the Dutch Lion
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1611:RfC, Name of the article
1580:22:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
1491:22:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
1402:22:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
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1224:22:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
1135:22:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
1046:09:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
946:I've made an RfC below.
2225:closer will review it.
494:WikiProject Netherlands
388:WikiProject Numismatics
2288:Order of Orange-Nassau
1994:Ser Amantio di Nicolao
1718:Netherlands New Guinea
1706:Royal Netherlands Navy
1595:these pending requests
1572:CommonsNotificationBot
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864:The lion, used in the
699:Royal Netherlands Navy
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1531:Don't panic
1442:Don't panic
1353:Don't panic
1264:Don't panic
1175:Don't panic
1086:Don't panic
997:Don't panic
805:Translation
661:Netherlands
512:Netherlands
499:Netherlands
458:Netherlands
406:Numismatics
393:numismatics
349:Numismatics
210:Start-class
159:free images
42:not a forum
2308:Categories
2292:JorisEnter
2050:JorisEnter
2042:User:DrKay
1965:JorisEnter
1951:JorisEnter
1916:JorisEnter
1912:this guide
1589:Dutch Lion
507:discussion
397:currencies
2103:EricSerge
2070:EricSerge
2018:Woodym555
2002:EricSerge
1998:Hans Kamp
1914:(p. 7).--
1823:fleet".--
912:Hans Kamp
852:EricSerge
835:EricSerge
570:Woodym555
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2215:Comment:
2022:Demophon
1949:Lion".--
1766:and here
1626:articles
1543:non-free
1454:non-free
1365:non-free
1276:non-free
1187:non-free
1098:non-free
1009:non-free
703:Demophon
669:Flanders
602:Demophon
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2284:removed
2188:I like
2186:Comment
2165:Comment
2150:".....
2134:Comment
2085:Comment
2030:Nyttend
1992:Hello,
1702:Comment
889:Belgium
880:Belgica
791:Members
598:Fleming
433:on the
324:on the
242:Câclass
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
2241:Cunard
2227:Cunard
2221:so an
2048:, and
2010:zadcat
812:zadcat
645:;o).--
274:medals
270:orders
216:scale.
137:Google
2223:WP:RM
2026:Woody
2014:C mon
1654:Sigma
1620:other
932:etc.
667:: in
616:Woody
594:Dutch
550:C mon
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
2296:talk
2274:and
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2231:talk
2198:talk
2173:talk
2156:talk
2139:and
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2034:MWAK
1973:talk
1955:talk
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1906:The
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1825:MWAK
1804:talk
1800:MWAK
1774:talk
1762:here
1758:here
1754:here
1750:here
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1742:here
1738:here
1734:here
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775:talk
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707:talk
651:talk
647:MWAK
620:talk
606:talk
560:MWAK
395:and
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1736:,
587:the
585:is
425:Low
316:Low
187:TWL
2310::
2298:)
2251:)
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