Talk:Leopard 2 - Knowledge (XXG)

1966:, The question of whether the Saudi Arabian government will (be able to?) purchase Leopard 2's is of importance to this article. As for the speculation claim, the source does seem somewhat speculative so that might be a reason not to include it, but it is referencing another news source (Handelsblatt) that might provide more insight, if I read german. Could the insert be rephrased to say something different, like: "Saudi Arabia has started negotiations with to purchase M1A1's and may be dropping its attempts to purchase the Leopard 1"? 425: 393: 441: 473: 409: 457: 523: 5215:

pieces of commercial marketing information from vendors proposing upgrades, to a unreasonably exhaustive coverage of ALL news related to Ukraine in the MIDDLE of the page, which then resumes with the technical details of the vehicle. Just a MESS. The layout I propose: 1. History/development 2. Technical description of vehicle/armament 3. Variants 4. Service history 5. Users, former and current.

278: 502: 640: 533: 611: 161: 350: 339: 328: 317: 3262:, but adding the Turkish vehicle template is not at all desirable or useful. We are not going to add a template for all countries that operate/d the Leopard 2, otherwise we could have 17 templates one on top of the other at the bottom of this article. I fail to see how that might be useful for the encyclopedia. It already has two useful templates. Regards, 236: 192: 2594:. I have updated the image/map, adding Indonesia as an operator (using a very simple freeware image editor), and uploaded the new version to Commons, and also changed the image caption in the article to read status as of April 2014. Which took me about five minutes in total, that is far less time than you have spent on edit-warring over it. 4263: 3997: 306: 2129:"Many of the people attracted to writing an encyclopedia tend to enjoy mulling and deliberating on a variety of topics, and do not mind weighing in with their opinions when not asked. Involving yourself in a discussion over a political, social or cultural issue as it relates to articles is encouraged. 5292:

I think this paragraph should be removed, i don't think Ukrainian soldiers talking about western tech in western interviews are a source reliable enough that it doesn't warrant scrutiny (and i think this statement warrants scrutiny), since the interviewed soldier could be kiss assing western tech, or

5123:

Please, do not use the picture of 2A7+ with Trophy as the primary picture. The picture should represent the topic. Using a picture of the single-made technology demostrator is incorrect, as it doesn't represent this particular tank family. It's a very ambiguous image. Why not using AbramsX pic for M1

3235:

The previous standing consensus was WITH the category, for many months. Don't make an edit away from a previous consensus and comment saying "do not revert until new consensus is reached". That is exactly the opposite of how it should be done. Anyway, if you guys feel strongly about it, leave it off,

5405:

Hello, I noticed that the article for Leopard 2 is marked as "Too long to read and navigate comfortably" earlier when I was reading through the article. I suggest we can take the "Variants" segment of the article and make it it's entirely own article, as this would cut down quite a huge chunk of the

5297:

There is several reasons i am doubting this statement as being credible, first of all what does it mean by "withstand damage"? Because the wording implies not just crew survivability but armor in general, and there are many soviet build (even if modernized) tanks in Ukrainian service like the T-64BV

4881:

I second this. Ever since I joined this community, my stance is always to shoot people like this. The M256, the gun used on the Abrams, is based on the Rh L/44 gun, but there are several differences, the most important being the bore evacuator and the muzzle reference system being changed to fit the

4876:

lol This sounds as if the Leopard 2 used the M1 Abrams gun. But it's the other way round: The Abrams use the german Rheinmetall Leopard 2 gun. To be more precise: to be able to fire our caseless ammunition, invented by German Rheinmetall chief engineer Dr. Stefan Thießen. How come that you can wager

3187:

No, this template does not belong to the Leo 2 page for exactly the reason the IP stated. If everyone tags their vehicles this way we would have several tank articles plastered with user/usage templates. That's why we only accept templates from the original user or by-type or by timeframe templates.

2574:

I removed a map (an image file depicting countries where Leopard 2 is in use) on account that it is no longer accurate and therefore contradicts the written information (and therefore goes against the WP:Rules). Apparently some editors think that the article should be used as a notice board and that

2316:

My text about the deal being dropped has been undone from the Leopard 2 page several times. That text put into the M1 Abrams page has been undone. This is information about a major development in a multi-billion dollar/euro arms deal that has been in the works for two years possibly being redirected

2232:

Wouldn't the "pending" section of the article be considered speculation? It shows those who are interested but haven't decided formally to buy. The Saudis have shown their interest, and the possible dropping of the deal in favor of working with General Dynamics is stated, not guessed. The section as

5469:

So the article was denied, Ironically with the comment "Most claims are unsourced." Which means the original variants section in this article is A, not fit for Knowledge (XXG) standards, and B, too long for the original article. Not sure what to do moving forwards since I no longer have the time to

4900:

Check the actual article text and not assume. The full text actually says "The primary armament for production versions of the Leopard 2 is the Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun—the same gun later adapted for use on the M1 Abrams.." now. This is clear that the Leopard 2 had it first. This wording

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Nem is értem, hogy eddig egy újságirónak sem jutott eszébe, hogy a eleresszen egy e-mailt a HM-nek, hogy a sok bemutatott szinváltozat közül végül melyik lesz az, amelyet a MH hivatalos mintájának tekinthetünk ill. hogy hivatalosan miért is ilyen nagy a szórás, ha már milliárdokat ölünk "High-Tech

5303:

previous generation tanks like the M60, T-62, Chieftain and etc crew survivability wise. That's because as long as the spare turret racks aren't filled the T-72 can't be ammoracked by a hit to the turret (due to the ammo being deep in the hull), making it basically un-explodable if it is hulldown

5302:

And also the wording implies that the T-72 is a death trap, which it isn't, the CIA actually praised it's crew survivability during the cold war, it's certainly not as survivable as, for example, the abrams with it's blow out panels and more spread apart crew, but the T-72 is still an upgrade over

3143:

Than add every single county that uses leopard 2 tanks, clearly this tab is unnecessary and mainly there to promote nationalistic agenda among nationalistic dick waving Turks. It is silly, nationalistic and stupid and totally unnecessary, if wiki can't see this than this encyclopedia might as well

1844:

Your reference is when the inhibitors are unshackled, a practice avoided because of the damage the suspensions suffer. The American M1 has a similar issue and also requires shackles to prevent it from destroying parts sooner than was acceptable. The M1 has been clocked at 122km during tests, and I

5214:

There's no logical flow to this entire article. Just looking at it gives me a headache. The order of topics covered starts promisingly with the development, some very precise information about the pre-series and prototypes, and then the quality of the page drops off rapidly, with cobbled together

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http://kpz.axlbox.de/servlets/sfs%3Bjsessionid%3D18966A1AD99684AFF90F809734FBFD8D?s=rquu2hgS7kjI7CT3y&t=%2FcontentManager%2FselectCatalog&i=1158408897725&b=1158408897725&l=0&e=UTF-8&ParentID=1164791614897&intro=1&CustomerID=0&startRow=0&active=no&cards=1

4147:

I'm just trying to provide more references to this section. In December 2016, in the Al Bab offensive, IS have knocked out 10 Leopard 2 tanks (2A4s), and captured 2... it would seem to me, this would appear to be the most amount of action the Leo 2s have seen. If you have better references than I

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According to Ukrainian soldier Oleksandr Solonko, their ability to withstand damage is superior to Soviet tanks due to its design that stores ammunition separately from the crew to explode outward if struck, enabling crewmembers to survive hits that would be fatal in a T-72 that stows ammunition

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The Leopard II has a speed of 39 MPH with the L/55 gun, and 44MPH with the L/44. Yet the information panel places the Leopard II with the L/55 gun, and 45 MPH. The only model that uses the L/55 gun is the A6 and that particular model comprises less than 1/10th of the Leopard II German fleet. So

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What is not encouraged is involving yourself in disputes or contentious issues that occur between editors themselves, unless it directly relates to you. Sometimes you may have information that is helpful in sorting out a dispute between editors. You should exercise caution and adhere to strict

5516:

Russia has captured some leopard 2s and from what I have seen of some of captured leopards they are in no condition for operation. Additinally why would Russia operate them as they have no spare parts for them. So i suggest removing them from the operators sections and into a separate one

3998:

http://kpz.axlbox.de/servlets/sfs;jsessionid=18966A1AD99684AFF90F809734FBFD8D?s=rquu2hgS7kjI7CT3y&t=/contentManager/selectCatalog&i=1158408897725&b=1158408897725&l=0&e=UTF-8&ParentID=1164791614897&intro=1&CustomerID=0&startRow=0&active=no&cards=1

5157:

There are other photos of the 2A7 on Commons but the one of the demonstrator is visually the clearest - a little further research shows that it is equivalent to the Leopard 2A7+ ordered by Qatar and Hungary. I have found a replacement image of a German 2A7 and I have updated the caption.

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Hi Denniss, as you can see below, the "Turkish Army vehicles" category includes the Leopard 2, as well as dozens of other foreign-sourced vehicles. The category is not military vehicles produced by Turkey, but vehicles used by the Turkish Army. You can either add that category to the

5454:

This is exactly the reason I believe the Leopard 2 should have an article similar to this. Not only would it make this article more readable, but it would make it easier to read and access the list of variants, and the list of operators, IF that is added to the article in the end.

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It is indeed reasonable to address. The reason is twofold. First, modern anti-tank rounds (AFSDS) do not ricochet in the same way that conventional AP rounds did. Second, the wedge on the Leopard 2A5 onward is not solid armor. It's multilayer composite, that absorbs and then

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The stated fuel consumption doesn't really sums up. It is stated, that the tanks needs 300 l/100km, yet it reaches with about 1200l of fuel 500km of range. With my maths this it should be about 400km. So either the stated range is wrong or the stated fuel consumption.

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It was previously reported that the Defense Ministry had bought 153 tanks worth US$ 280 million from the German government, comprising 61 Leopard Ri tanks, 42 Leopard 2A4 tanks and 50 Marder tanks. The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | National | Mon, September 23 2013, 8:52 PM

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I put it back as a separate variant as it is the missing link between the A4 and the forked development of the A5 and strv 122. The alternative, while keeping the time line intact, would be to insert it at the end of the A4 section, but that too has its problems.

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the wrong map should remain in place, supposedly so that it is easy or convenient for future replacement. I don't see anywhere in WP:rules that makes an allowance for an error image file to remain on an article indefinitely until an updated image shows up.

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Deliveries of Leopard 2 have not yet begun to AFU either in Ukraine or Poland. Ukraine will be moved to active operators when there is verifiable evidence of Ukranian possession and use. Reports at time of writing suggest that training is to be arranged.

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https://web.archive.org/20081227110710/http://www.epicos.com:80/epicos/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_panename/News+Information+Article+View;jsessionid=3BB03398A96F7A60F18A1F4E04FADE1D.tomcat5?articleid=81090&showfull=false

2287:. When and if the deal is reliably reported as *actually* fallen through, it's a solid issue and should be included. This may only be in a few days time - or never. The pending section would be for future events which are certain / already scheduled. 3204:

It makes no sense to add templates to articles based on marginal relevance. The Turkish military uses the Leo 2, so what? Many other countries do so as well. The connection between the two is marginal and does not warrant a navigational template.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20111008032615/http://www.ibd-deisenroth-engineering.de/news/items/MBT122B_with_new_Protection.html?file=tl_files%2Fresources%2Fcontent-pdfs%2F2010-12%20New%20MBT122B%20Evolution%20with%20Unprecedented%20Protection.pdf

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The text says: "The A5 introduced a wedge-shaped, spaced add-on armour to the turret front and the frontal area of the sides. it does not form a shot-trap since it doesn't deflect the penetrators outwards to hit the hull or turret ring."

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131103110937/http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7090%3Aqatar-rheinmetall-awarded-635-million-for-leo-2a7-pz-2000-support-contract&catid=3%3Aasia&Itemid=56

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https://web.archive.org/web/20130928033434/http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7865%3Aperu-future-main-battle-tank-projects-lags-on-despite-criticism&catid=35%3Alatin-america&Itemid=58

5425:. Please consider checking this draft out, and contributing a few necessary edits to it if you wish. As of the time of posting this reply, a few citations on the draft page are broken, and I do not know how to fix them. 4569: 4579: 4292:

http://www.epicos.com/epicos/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_panename/News%2BInformation%2BArticle%2BView%3Bjsessionid%3D3BB03398A96F7A60F18A1F4E04FADE1D.tomcat5?articleid=81090&showfull=false

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Knowledge (XXG) is not a newspaper and does not cover current events, unless it's an article that is specifically about a current event. And we don't add mere speculations, which is what this is. What more reasons for

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http://www.epicos.com/epicos/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_panename/News+Information+Article+View;jsessionid=3BB03398A96F7A60F18A1F4E04FADE1D.tomcat5?articleid=81090&showfull=false

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The unit cost is stated to be 5.74 million USD but the source says that these units were surplus , thus, the actual production cost will be higher. Also, the units were both the leopard 2A5 and the 2A6.

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to a different recipient. Everyone is clarifying WP: sources, but I cannot understand how this information isn't seen as relevant enough to be included in either Knowledge (XXG) article that it concerns.

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http://www.ibd-deisenroth-engineering.de/news/items/MBT122B_with_new_Protection.html?file=tl_files%2Fresources%2Fcontent-pdfs%2F2010-12%20New%20MBT122B%20Evolution%20with%20Unprecedented%20Protection.pdf

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Silly but not stupid, think about it... everything's in plain English and yet he still doesn't get it. What? Are we speaking Jamaican/Martian English here? Even a wee scrubber can do better than that! --

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131103110744/http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6338%3Aqatar-army-orders-leopard-2-pzh-2000-from-germany&catid=3%3Aasia&Itemid=56

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In addition to that it's just a speculation. If/when the Saudis decide not to go through with the deal a short mention of it can be added to the article, but not while it's just a speculation.

1926:, but I honestly can't figure out about how that policy is violated by the content. Can someone please say why it violates NOTNEWS instead of just saying over and over that it does violate it. 5143:

sorry, didn't manage to tag. I understand that quality matters. There are okay pictures of Leo 2 in Commons, it's not needed to use the photo of the tank which doesn't even look like Leo 2.

5378:

We have received Gidrán's with the wrong colors, when the lynx was finally put on showcase it was using Rheinmetal's camouflage, etc. This is why it became a discussion and email sent.

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http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7090%3Aqatar-rheinmetall-awarded-635-million-for-leo-2a7-pz-2000-support-contract&catid=3%3Aasia&Itemid=56

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http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7865%3Aperu-future-main-battle-tank-projects-lags-on-despite-criticism&catid=35%3Alatin-america&Itemid=58

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article since 2007. The variants and operators portion of the Leopard 2 article is of similar scale, so splitting the article in a similar fashion would certainly be reasonable. —

3346:

Yeah, there was a mix-up between category and template here, don't worry. I was just reverting an unexplained edit away from a previous consensus, not edit warring here folks :)

2555:

Ha Ha, the Indonesian press seems to think the Leopard 2A4 Evolution armour upgrade is a different tank, and for some reason christened it Revolution. Lets hope its not an omen.

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About that picture, it is labelled as a German 2A7 , but the front of the hull looks a lot more like a 2A5, also owned by Germany. Are you sure that it is labelled correctly?

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Not only were they incredibly obsolete and unfit for the rolling hills of Germany let alone urban combat, and even worse was that they were sent in without infantry support.

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zr 2017 that as far as i am aware of have better armor then the Leopard 2A4, off course there is the Leopard 2A6 but the 2A4 makes up the majority of leopards in UA service

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unless the panel specifies what equipment belongs to what model, we must select one and represent it well, not cherry pick the most favorable statistics from each model.

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it is says nothing is finalized, and is being debated. Wouldn't something like this show the progression of trying to pass the deal, whether it goes through or not?

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your boots that English Wiki articles are always full of this sort of subtle, manipulating U.S. propaganda and jingoism, how great they were. Unbefuckinglievable.

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Another reason for choosing a different photo is that the uploader of this particular photo has a history of uploading photos to wikimedia in violation of our

4560:

http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6338%3Aqatar-army-orders-leopard-2-pzh-2000-from-germany&catid=3%3Aasia&Itemid=56

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Agreed - the template has no place on this page. Imagine the size of the mess applying the practice to widely used weapons like the T-54/55 or the M1911.

589: 5556: 5013:'s, in addition to allowing other nations like Poland and Finland to do so as well, Ukraine should be moved to the list of active operators of the type. 4427: 4719: 4225: 3453: 3376:

It isn't obvious why the wedge-shaped armour doesn't form a shot-trap; is it because the spaced add-on armour is penetrated by all shots hitting it?

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110807071458/http://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2011/04/08/46180709/Defensie_hard_getroffen_door_bezuinigingen_video

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My reference says the Saudis may drop the proposed deal to buy Leopard 2s because it is taking too long to get approved. Why is it being deleted?

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standards of civility when you attempt to enlighten a contentious discussion between editors. There is rarely a reason to jump into an argument,

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Briefly, he states he had shot an message to the HDF with question regarding the RAL codes for the leopards and supposedly responded with this.

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they could just be plain wrong (soldiers can still be very wrong, just look at all the negative sherman reviews despite it being a great tank)

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100627160134/http://www.kmweg.de/2922-bD1lbiZuZXdzX2lkPTQzMDAx-~rechte-navi~pressemitteilungen~news_detail.html

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http://web.archive.org/web/20101209052033/http://www.turunsanomat.fi:80/kotimaa/?ts=1,3:1002:0:0,4:2:0:1:2007-09-21,104:2:487211,1:0:0:0:0:0

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Yesirree but everybody has their limit, especially after some nosy body come meddling while we're trying to talk to the native confuser. --

2251: 2064: 2037: 30: 5242:, as far as i know the author of both photos is wm_blood, i think an attempt should be made at contacting him for permission to use them 2366:

Stop it, Dave. That kind of comment only makes you look sillier than him. Everyone's allowed to edit here no matter where they come from.

5234:

I think it would be useful to add photos to the ukranian section of the combat history. These two photos especially i would like to add:

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https://web.archive.org/web/20091017063251/http://forsvaret.dk:80/HOK/Nyt%20og%20Presse/ISAF/Pages/Statusoverfredagensbegivenheder.aspx

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

4595:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110706221210/http://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg/en/home/dokumentation/news/newsdetail.37618.nsb.html

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090111052006/http://www.europaeische-sicherheit.de/Ausgaben/2008/2008_01/Umschau/2008,01,umschau.html

4163:

One should point out that the 2A4 lacks side, front and turret armory compared to YTD 2A6 and 2A7. 2A4 is basically 30 years old.

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Dave1185, I can't speak for America789, but your way of saying that is rather rude. It implies that there is a clear violation of

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is not optional. Discuss how to improve the article, how wiki rules apply, etc, but not other editors - that is never fruitful. (

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Is there any source for that they are still being produced? I never heard about any new units expect upgrading older versions.

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I have gone ahead and created a quick draft article of what the Leopard 2 Variants page should look like. It can be found at

4546:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120705084042/http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/indonesia-pulls-out-of-dutch-tanks-deal/528362

4536:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110928093526/http://www.dvhn.nl/nieuws/drenthe/article6727686.ece/Laatste-schot-uit-Leopardtank

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Lastly and in future, please clarify with your fellow editors if you're not sure of their intentions. When in doubt, always

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I aswell seen a post older than this with the same RAL codes stated, i will try my best to find it again to cite source.

5084:

Should longer sections about exports, variants, and operators be 'pruned' and spun off into their own individual pages?

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This page belongs in that category, as it is a vehicle used by the Turkish Army. Please be polite when discussing here.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090225074757/http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/vol_10/vol10_27/1027_07.pdf

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I would just like to add that I recognise America789 is editing in good faith, and hope he doesn't feel too set upon. (

4428:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100301161335/http://www.kmweg.de/10894--~PRODUKTE~kettenfahrzeuge~leopard2~leopard2.html

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that should be obvious to even the dumbest editor, and like I said above I'm still not quite clear on how it violates

5103:

info should be trimmed or summarized first. Splitting off to seperate page(s) should be more like a last resort imo.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20101111091245/http://www.aktifhaber.com/savunma-ihalelerinde-rusvet-skandali-352580h.htm

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080508210939/http://www.mindef.nl/actueel/nieuws/2007/04/20070412_verkoop_leopard.aspx

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Highly unlikely he's from America (as he claims) or anywhere near it. Also, Republicans are not a country either. --

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The page mentions the Pz 87–140 as a Swiss prototype and the source is only one single image. I found a potential

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131103052841/http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?fid=4113&lang=3&pdb=1

4448:

https://archive.is/20120729174700/http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=2378441

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I saw a lot of sources on the use of the leopard in the nordic contries, but no discussion on it yet. How come?

4770:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

4348:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3984:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140423140358/http://portal.sipri.org:80/publications/pages/transfer/trade-register

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3716:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1962:

I would contest even though the event is currently happening it is not a "current event" in the way intended by

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Actually, the initial comment by the IP mentioned "category", though it appears they "meant" template. Cheers,

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It has been explained clearly by several editors why. I cannot see how it can be explained any more clearly. (

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140410111225/http://www.fmv.se/sv/Projekt/Stridsvagn-121-och-122-Leopard-2-/

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http://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2011/04/08/46180709/Defensie_hard_getroffen_door_bezuinigingen_video

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I feel that the transfer to Ukraine section should also be its own section as its so large as it stands

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destabilizes the APFSDS rod before it reaches the final armor plates of the turret front. The shell is

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https://www.janes.com/article/86746/idex-2019-calidus-aims-b-250-at-middle-east-north-african-market

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I tend to agree with you. It looks like that info should be in the article to me. People are citing

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070823184305/http://www.danskpanser.dk/Baeltekoretojer/Leopard2A5.htm

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122 Km/h is not possible with standard gear box, you´d overspeed the n2 to about 180%. Impossible.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080226183459/http://www.rheinmetall.de/index.php?fid=2021&lang=3

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http://www.kmweg.de/2922-bD1lbiZuZXdzX2lkPTQzMDAx-~rechte-navi~pressemitteilungen~news_detail.html

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http://web.archive.org/web/20110607222006/http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jmvl/jmvla084.html

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Usually, it is better just to butt out and let the editors resolve the problem between themselves.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100627144153/http://www.casr.ca:80/101-army-armour-leopard-2a6m.htm

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