1127:"Years ago, as the city closed in on launching the rail project, people on the job recall the atmosphere as officials pushed for heavy rail." "“We had a nationally recognized transportation expert — a lover of trains — develop that study,” said local architect Peter Vincent. “Rail is great. We need a fixed guideway to help the traffic congestion, but it should have been light rail from the get-go.”" "Now that heavy rail is draining the bank account — and with the feds withholding any more money only halfway through their committed share — old ideas like that just might get a fresh look." "“The cars could receive their power both from the third rail as well as catenary power above,” Vincent explained. “That change could be made. The cars would have to change because they’re high-platform..." Here's the kicker: “The pros are huge,” Vincent [ said. “We get a more environmentally friendly system downtown. We save $ 1 billion or so, and it’s much easier to extend. That has a better chance of then going on to UH Manoa and Waikiki, because our current heavy rail all-elevated system will never be able to make it to those destinations which are really critical to a full transit system.” Also, the bottom of the article outlines why light rail was specifically rejected.
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has more resemblance to a people mover system. If that were true, then we would be expanding this list to include all of those systems in the USA (of which there are numerous). A close example would be the Las Vegas monorail, which has 4-car trains rather than 2-car trains ... so should we include that in this list too?? I just think that light rail is more closely associated with overhead catenary systems rather than third rail systems. Another system like this would be
Baltimore Metro, but that's not listed here either.
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the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph; driven by an operator on board the vehicle; and may have either high platform loading or low level boarding using steps." The key issue I take from this is the reference to drawing power from an overhead electric line, which this project does not, but which most
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715:(sort of...)), I am going to being deleting the individual system sections from this article within the next 24 hours. As discussed, the sections that will be cut first will be the system sections that are completely unreferenced. – Again, if anyone has any last minute comments, please post them here... --
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use the words "light rail" when I last checked this last year. I don't have time to go do that now. I really don't care enough about this to make a stink over it. Still, it is interesting that no one has produced a definitive secondary ref calling the system "rapid transit" either. This gets back to
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Yeah, that's about right – that's pretty much what an objective observer would probably call it... I haven't checked the
Honolulu website for this system lately, but last time I checked, the builders were themselves calling it "light rail". It's worth remembering that not every fully grade-separated
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Well, I don't know if I'd call the double-tracking expansion. I live in
Baltimore and the change made scheduling more reliable but otherwise wasn't an impact in how the system operated. The Hamburg Street station already existed, but because of the single track it was difficult to integrate it into
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I kind of understand the issues here, but I still don't think
Honolulu fits in the light rail table. For a start it is the only third rail system listed here, which points to it being more of a rapid transit system. I concur with the similarity to DLR etc., but on that basis I would argue that it
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besides
Knowledge (XXG)) – so that's all that was required here, and any editor can now feel free to remove it from the list... Still, somebody sometime is going to have to explain why the official website was calling it "light rail" – to my mind, what they're calling it should actually carry some
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defines "Heavy rail" as "...Heavy Rail is a mode of transit service (also called metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) operating on an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic.". So I give you two reasons why I think this system cannot be categorized as "light rail".
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defines light rail as follows "Light Rail is a mode of transit service (also called streetcar, tramway, or trolley) operating passenger rail cars singly (or in short, usually two-car or three-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is often separated from other traffic for part or much of
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It basically comes down to this – if someone can find some recent solid secondary sources calling the system (full) "rapid transit", post them to the Talk page, and then it can probably be removed from the list. But if the builder/operator website is still referring to the system as "light rail",
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This is another case where the operator is self-categorizing the system as "light rail". Therefore, there's no third-party reference characterizing the system as "rapid transit". (Objectively, it could probably be categorized as "light metro"; but no one seems to be calling it that...) Until that
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This is from memory... but if I read the
Baltimore article correctly, they did add that station in 2005 or 2006, which is what I think is what the date refers to(?...). (Questionable if adding an 'infill station' is really an "expansion", but I think it technically counts...) Or maybe it was the
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Not to complicate this further, but I'm betting you're not going to see "rapid transit" used in any secondary source because the way
Knowledge (XXG) uses it, to mean specifically heavy rail transit, is not the way the real world uses it, which frustrates me to no end but there you are. If I'm
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I'm not "doing anything". The fact is, no one has yet produced a source confirming that the system is true rapid transit, while there are several things about the system itself, and from the builder, that show that it isn't full rapid transit and may be categorized as "light rail". As for
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Not sure what the dates in the table refer to? Baltimore hasn't seen added track since 1997. In 2005 Hamburg Steet opened to full-time service. Nothing new was added to the system in 2006, though some existing sections that had been closed for a year for double-tracking were reopened.
986:. In other words, primary sources should only be used with care and should not be relied on. You make it clear that the only source which says that this is a light rail system is the primary source. I think your skating on thin ice here arguing to keep Honolulu in this list.
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urban rail system is called "metro/rapid transit" – there are a few fully grade-separated systems that are still categorized as "light right", primarily because they use small trains and/or have low frequencies and thus have lower passenger capacities than "metro" systems. --
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The follow-up question once I do add the table is whether the paragraph summaries of each system can then be cut from this page at that point. I'm currently leaning in the direction that a
Summary table is enough and the paragraph summaries, which are a pain to keep updated,
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remembering correctly "rapid transit" is a years-old
Knowledge (XXG) compromise between American editors who wanted to use "subway" and Brits who wanted to use "metro". In the real world, it's used generically to refer to any rail transit or even bus transit all the time. --
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found a source referring to it as "heavy rail" (the other "American" term besides "subway") – though I bet we'd both still agree that this system is really an "medium-capacity rail" system (which, incidentally, is another term that's used
874:"Rapid transit" is a terrible wikipedia compromise word that isn't used the same way in the real world as it is here, but that's another story. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see how APTA categorizes it (my money is on metro.) --
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I don't plan to cut them until I get some feedback here. But I'm really hoping there will now be some consensus to cut those, as they are a large part of why this article is tagged with so many 'maintenance tags'.
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page, and it wouldn't be hard to move that info over to this page too. The added benefit of doing that is that it would provide a lot of the reference 'sourcing' that's currently missing from this page...
1005:, it says "care must be used" when using them, not that they cannot or should not be used. When it comes to rail systems, no one know their systems' particulars better than the builders and operators. --
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FTR, I haven't forgotten about this project. But because it will need to be done carefully (so no good references are lost...), I have postponed it until I can devote some proper time to doing it right.
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I'm less familiar with these two systems, and don't have any strong opinions on them, so feel free to use any dates you feel will be more accurate (again, preferably referenced, if you can find any). --
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If you can find better dates, feel free to alter them - as long as they're referenced, no one can really object. (Though I remember that references for
Buffalo's systems are quite hard to come by...) --
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OK, will cut the individual sections in the next two weeks, if there are no substantive objections before then (still hoping for a couple of more supportive comments in the meantime...). --
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Mjdestroyerofworlds' point that this is really an "medium-capacity transport" system, and neither "light rail" nor "rapid transit". But good luck finding a ref calling it that either... --
303:. I tried splitting this off of that a year ago because it was getting overloaded and I got reverted. Some folks like to see as much information as possible jammed into a single page.
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I know all that – I've been working on this longer than you have. Bottom line: You need to produce solid secondary sourcing that the system is not light rail – especially as the builder
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normal operations and only operated during events at M&T Stadium; after the double-tracking was complete it became a regular stop, but the infrastructure was already there. --
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I've noticed that "hybrid rail" is listed here as a form of light rail, but in the US (as defined by the FTA), hybrid rail is a different type of rail operation, just that it
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150613235329/http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-light-rail-officials-select-brookfield-equipment-to-design-build-6-streetcars/33460208
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Now that I've put in a Summary Systems Table into the article, I would strongly urge that the sections on the individual systems finally be cut from the article. Reasons:
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Actually it would be good if you provided a reference that supported the inclusion in the list. That is your responsibility if you are promoting such an addition.
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Nope – I actually have a paying job, and I don't have time for that kind of thing for the next several months. I can tell you that the official website
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that runs on other systems around the world generally classified as metro rapid transit rather than light rail. Not sure if it really belongs here? --
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This article needs to be a general summary, the inclusion of a paragraph on every city doesn't convey the subject matter in an appropriate fashion.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130603024904/http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/Light-Rail-System-Factsht_08-14-12.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130918081308/http://www.ridemetro.org/FinancialAuditInformation/Pdfs/Budgets/FY2012-Business-Plan-Budget-092911.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131104023212/http://www.publictransit.us/ptlibrary/NorthAmericaRailTransitOpenings/Railopenings_US_Updated2011.pdf
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The map needs to be updated. Norfolk, Virginia opened its light rail system in August 2011, but the map still shows it as under construction --
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131103235042/http://www.publictransit.us/ptlibrary/NorthAmericaRailTransitOpenings/Railopenings_ZAppend_2010.htm
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Would there be any interest in adding a 'summary' table for the systems in The U.S. to this page? It already pretty much exists over at the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130820152521/http://vta.org/news/factsheets/bus_lightrail_trolly_information/lightrail_overview.pdf
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http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-light-rail-officials-select-brookfield-equipment-to-design-build-6-streetcars/33460208
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So, would anyone object to this? Would anyone like to see me move that table & info over to this page? Thoughts?... TIA. --
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double-tracking (I would consider 'double-tracking' a previously single-track section to technically be a system "expansion").
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I don't know of anything of interest that happened with the Buffalo system in 2013. They actually lost a station, I think. --
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as "... as heavy rail, metro, subway, tube, or underground." So project name does not suggest it to be a light rail system.
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Cut em. Too much detail for an overview article. Readers can link through the table to the individual system articles.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140214014738/http://www.metrotransit.org/facts-about-trains-and-construction.aspx
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I am 1-2 days away from adding the Summary table, very similar in format to the one shown above, to this page.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070515131747/http://www.railserve.com/railnews/commuter_rail_transit.html
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http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/Light-Rail-System-Factsht_08-14-12.pdf
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They are now redundant with the Summary Systems Table, and the individual Wiki articles on each system.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140330033705/http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdfs/700-redline.pdf
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http://www.ridemetro.org/FinancialAuditInformation/Pdfs/Budgets/FY2012-Business-Plan-Budget-092911.pdf
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http://www.publictransit.us/ptlibrary/NorthAmericaRailTransitOpenings/Railopenings_US_Updated2011.pdf
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130620184234/http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/2013April_Railmap_large.jpg
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http://www.publictransit.us/ptlibrary/NorthAmericaRailTransitOpenings/Railopenings_ZAppend_2010.htm
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once the Summary table is added. Anyone who has an opinion on this question should reply here... --
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131016055955/http://www.sdvintagetrolley.com/route_map_fares.aspx
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131125161159/http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/FrontLines2015Map.pdf
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Believe it or not, still working on this project. So far, I've worked up something line this:
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130823111730/http://metrostlouis.org/About/History/The1990s.aspx
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1627:). It should either be clarified that HR is not Light Rail or moved to a separate article.
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On my end, I'm wondering if the 'Lines' and 'Stations' columns looked better switched... --
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I feel like the prose at the start of that section explains the distinction adequately. --
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The name of the system is "Hawaii Authority for Rapid Transit". Knowledge (XXG) defines
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The Honolulu system will be entirely grade-separated, powered by third rail, and use an
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://www.metrostlouis.org/BusinessCommunity/Procurement/ProcurementInformation.aspx
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https://web.archive.org/web/20141029090711/http://streetcar.atlantaga.gov/about/
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In the case of Buffalo, I think the date may refer to the loss of that station.
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They are much harder to keep up-to-date than the Summary Systems Table will be.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130624080152/http://www.ridemetro.org/AboutUs/
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weight in this discussion... But, c'est la vie. 22:50, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
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https://www.transit.dot.gov/ntd/national-transit-database-ntd-glossary#H
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130902085256/http://www.cat.org/river-rail
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can visit the
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then it's kind of hard to justify removing it from this article... --
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http://www.metrotransit.org/facts-about-trains-and-construction.aspx
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system; the figures and statistics presented here represent the
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http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdfs/700-redline.pdf
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Okay, if your going to use that argument, then I'll invoke
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/2013April_Railmap_large.jpg
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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trolleys, heritage and modern, should be in this list.--
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http://www.metrostlouis.org/About/History/The1990s.aspx
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Could light rail help train reach Ala Moana and beyond?
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Anyone have any thoughts, comments, suggestions...?
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http://www.sdvintagetrolley.com/route_map_fares.aspx
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http://www.rideuta.com/uploads/FrontLines2015Map.pdf
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1544:After February 2018
1354:After February 2018
1166:Mjdestroyerofworlds
1135:Mjdestroyerofworlds
917:Mjdestroyerofworlds
902:Mjdestroyerofworlds
513:rapid transit/metro
461:70.3Â mi (113.1Â km)
238:This article lacks
1598:InternetArchiveBot
1549:InternetArchiveBot
1408:InternetArchiveBot
1359:InternetArchiveBot
1038:systems do. Also,
480:P865 & P2020,
235:
211:
123:WikiProject Trains
34:content assessment
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1146:
1133:comment added by
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280:SUMMARY ! ! !
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144:Trains Portal
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1129:— Preceding
1100:
1087:Andrewgprout
1058:
1045:KirksKeyKard
988:KirksKeyKard
945:KirksKeyKard
839:
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568:. Retrieved
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482:AnsaldoBreda
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138:. See also:
132:project page
121:
109:
108:
40:WikiProjects
437:light rail:
418:Los Angeles
30:Start-class
1667:Categories
1605:Report bug
1415:Report bug
1003:WP:PRIMARY
980:WP:PRIMARY
570:2013-06-28
541:References
526:light rail
510:heavy rail
488:Light rail
435:Metro Rail
321:update map
240:references
136:discussion
64:Streetcars
1621:typically
1588:this tool
1581:this tool
1398:this tool
1391:this tool
836:Honolulu?
661:oknazevad
404:expanded
394:Stations
267:DThomsen8
1649:contribs
1594:Cheers.—
1404:Cheers.—
1143:contribs
1131:unsigned
1111:contribs
1072:contribs
1012:contribs
965:contribs
929:contribs
900:for me.
142:and the
1629:Piemadd
1438:my edit
1218:my edit
1171:nowhere
689:Update:
600:Update:
476:P2000,
474:Siemens
391:length
384:opened
379:System
327:GoUrban
176:on the
1644:IJBall
1106:IJBall
1067:IJBall
1007:IJBall
960:IJBall
924:IJBall
862:IJBall
818:IJBall
789:IJBall
743:IJBall
717:IJBall
707:Update
694:IJBall
676:IJBall
646:IJBall
614:IJBall
586:IJBall
484:P2550
455:Lines
451:&
410:System
397:Lines
376:State
354:IJBall
149:Trains
59:Trains
36:scale.
1152:Jfruh
1063:WP:OR
984:WP:OR
876:Jfruh
846:Jfruh
804:Jfruh
767:Jfruh
496:Notes
470:2012
458:1990
453:Green
412:type
389:route
387:Total
263:SEPTA
1653:talk
1633:talk
1156:talk
1139:talk
1115:talk
1091:talk
1076:talk
1065:. --
1059:does
1049:talk
1040:APTA
1031:APTA
1016:talk
992:talk
969:talk
949:talk
933:talk
906:talk
892:and
880:talk
866:talk
850:talk
822:talk
808:talk
793:talk
771:talk
747:talk
738:Done
730:And
721:talk
713:here
698:talk
680:talk
665:talk
650:talk
618:talk
590:talk
531:only
448:Gold
444:Expo
440:Blue
402:last
400:Year
382:Year
358:talk
331:talk
306:Sher
290:talk
271:talk
1562:RfC
1532:to
1522:to
1512:to
1502:to
1492:to
1482:to
1472:to
1462:to
1452:to
1372:RfC
1342:to
1332:to
1322:to
1312:to
1302:to
1292:to
1282:to
1272:to
1262:to
1252:to
1242:to
1232:to
1101:did
464:65
311:eth
168:Mid
1669::
1651:•
1635:)
1575:.
1570:}}
1566:{{
1385:.
1380:}}
1376:{{
1158:)
1141:•
1113:•
1093:)
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692:--
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644:--
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549:^
467:4
446:,
442:,
430:CA
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195:/
62::
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146:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
