Talk:List of fictional antiheroes

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established definitions of antihero." I provided a legitimate source for literary bond, and now I have several others for literary Bond. Regardless of whether Bond is cited by more sources as simply being a hero or action hero and not an anti hero, this page says that as long as "a critic" (even if 999 other critics disagree) from a reliable source considers a character an anti hero, they can be on the list. I have three books and several other web based sources from newspapers and magazines. So I have the right to put it back up, which I will.

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not, and are not going to reform, e.g Hannibal Lecter. The first kind - are they really anti-heroes, or heroes by 'stealth'? The second kind are more realistic and appear in literature or media that doesn't compromise with the viewer to create a means of redemption, to give us that warm fuzzy feeling at the end that means there's hope for us all. A true anti-hero just is, from the one-dimensional cowboy bad guy, to those damaged or psychopathic like Alex in 'A Clockwork Orange'

589: 571: 493: 475: 444: 2997:. A list of this nature always has contentious content, and I do think the list is worthwhile, but Knowledge (XXG) is not TVTropes, and a list of this nature shouldn't seek to document every single fictional anti-hero with a wikipedia article (and almost certainly shouldn't list characters without standalone articles). I think if we looked at the article's sources, identified sources like 503: 269: 219: 643: 825: 3498:". I don't know exactly what that means (I guess the discussed "listicles" would qualify here after all), but I think such a requirement could promote a new kind of bias: On Knowledge (XXG) we want to include all the world's knowledge. Summary works concentrating the concept of antihero will invariably be limited (presumably mostly to 3190:. I am unsure about whether or not to restrict entries to characters with stand-alone articles, since I can see pros and cons with both (though it may very well be a moot point since one would expect characters who have featured heavily in literature on fictional antiheroes to also meet the relevant notability requirements). 3445:

I'd be fine leaving it be if the inclusion criteria are limited to notable entities only (i.e. ones that have a stand-alone article), and of course the entry is referenced - with a quote, preferably. As for listicles on ScreenRant, meh, I'd let it go, I don't like them in the context of establishing

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to create an article that meets Knowledge (XXG) standards. The article should have been deleted. But at least it needs a clean-up with higher quality sources. If we can't find a consensus around improving this article, that would be strong evidence that the article cannot be improved, and it should

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There is no encyclopedic justification for committing intellectual suicide. If multiple reliable sources describe a fictional character as an antihero, that suffices. By comparison, if a new Senator is elected from Rhode Island, we don't exclude them from a list of Senators from Rhode Island merely

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where perhaps only a single person thinks the character is an antihero whereas everyone else thinks they're a regular hero or an outright villain. The subjectivity of the term (and some sources applying it rather loosely) was of course an issue that was brought up repeatedly during the AfD. I would

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I think the classification of anti-hero needs to be highlighted in this topic. To my mind, there are two types of anti-hero - one being the sort that are previously amoral types who throughout the course of the narrative become heroes (e.g. Snake Pliskin, 'Escape from New York')or the types who do

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That's why people are supposed to cite a reliable source that says a specific character is an antihero. Bowser being a playable character does not make him an anti-hero. Some guys blog or another Wiki won't work, either. If you've got a reliable source and include it in your edit, feel free to add

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issue, as we surely have many non-controversial examples to balance others. I would have not problem with asking for multiple sources to deal with that in the spirit of "something not being done doesn't mean that it can't be or shouldn't be", though it would be quite a big amount of work to fix a

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closed as no consensus because (per the close) editors were more-or-less split between improving the list and getting rid of it altogether. So let's try to improve it as much as possible. It may be the case that even the best possible version of this list is still not satisfactory and we would be

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Going with the clean-up tag, I'll be removing numerous entries on here that are unreliably sourced, not labeling the character as 'anti-hero' in the source, not sourced at all, or having a dead source. I’ll also be removing sequels/related works for certain entries that only have the source for a

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Any objection to moving Gollum to the film section? The article cited (which is now a 404 error and should be relinked through the Internet Archive) was Serkis talking about the movie version of Gollum, and not the book version. Gollum certainly was not a hero (or antihero) in Tolkien's work.

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The character Fritz The Cat appeared in comic book (as this article has listed him) but he also has appeared in film. Also, Alexandra Cabot (From Josie and The Pussycats, not Law & Order ... is in an Archie Comics but also appeared in Television and Film.) Currently Alexandra is not in this

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SchroCat reverted my edits for James Bond. But per this page they had no reason to do so: "Each of these examples has been identified by a critic as an antihero, although the classification is somewhat subjective. Some of the entries may be disputed by other sources and some may contradict all

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Hello everyone! Is Rocky Balboa a typical antihero? Because at the beginning of the first movie, he was a lone fighter in the ring who worked for low wages, just like Wolverine did at the first movie of X-Men. If yes, I would recommend to add him to this list. Please reply! Thanks!

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Thomas covenant, anti hero archetype known from "The chronicles of Thomas Covenant" is all too human and flawed to be anything near a hero, yet despita all his flaws .. you have to read the books.. Take it from me and anyone who has read the books, a truer anti-hero is hard to find.

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I've authored two books, featuring my character Charlotte Aiken. I was going over the reviews for them tonight on Amazon and the most recent reviewer stated "Charlotte is the perfect anti-hero." I have no idea who this reviewer is, as s/he made the review under the name "CMT."

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notability, but they seem fine for such lists. I mean, using a crappy list to reference a crappy list is somewhat fitting :P Anyway, I'd like to remove non-blue linked entries on this list, as well as all unreferenced ones. Any objections to the former (the latter, per

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we should agree to such a requirement, we should not throw the baby out with the bath water, however: Most entries here have only one source, because earlier contributors would not have expected that more are needed. So entries with one source should then

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I have just added Eric Draven (The Crow), William Munny (The Unforgiven), Jackson Teller (Sons of Anarchy), and The MacManus Brothers (Boondock Saints) to this list. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to get the format down for my references to stay. Any

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Maybe this has been asked before, maybe it hasn't. But if you have John Constantine and The Punisher listed in Movies, TV, & comics, why not also add Batman & Deadpool? Those 2 are listed in comics, but not either in movies or TV.

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I added Jason Todd the red hood I was going to try to put a link but i didn't do it correctly so I don't can't. the Knowledge (XXG) article on Jason Todd also says he's antihero and uses IGN as a link for that in that wiki article.

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Hey I was on the List of Fictional Antiheroes page and some presumably 13 year old girl added Ash Morgenstern (from one of the hundreds of vapid Cassandra Clare books) with the comment "U go Ash (insert a dozen exclamation points)"

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article as was suggested in the AfD), but at least then we'll know whether we can bring it up to an acceptable standard for Knowledge (XXG) or not and can let that inform further discussion about how best to handle the situation.

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batman isnt an antihero. As well as sources from screen rant arent reliable because screen rant isnt official reliable source. As well as hulk and iron man. No where in their biography over thr net it say they are antiheroes

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Could Wilbur Soot be considered an anti-hero within the Dream SMP ? Since its a minecraft role-play there wouldn't be any 'reliable' sources in terms of media reviews and official opinion but the DSMP wiki does offer a lot.

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It's not a blog or a wiki, which seems to be what 90% of the people who bother to list a source use. (Obviously, those are not reliable sources.) I think the one that you found should be good enough for inclusion in a list.

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suggests requiring a reliable source as the solution. So I personally am fine with keeping with having one source. I do see "some sources applying it rather loosely", and that there may in some cases be an issue with

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No mention of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia?! For shame that Charlie Kelly, Dennis Reynolds, Deandra "Dee" Reynolds, Ronald "Mac" McDonald and Frank Reynolds have not been entered into this list as anti-heroes.

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I found one, but somebody may want to clean up my work, since I'm not the most professional Wikipedian. Also, if you need more sources, someone else can find one, because I don't know what to look for in a source.

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Your own definition of an anti-hero lists the character in question as the protagonist of the piece. One could make a case for either the Maitlands or Lydia Deetz as the protagonists, NOT Beetlejuice himself.

428:. For the most part, published reviews and articles from third-party sources tend to make up the majority of sources here. Blogs, fan-sites, forums, wikis, etc, are not considered to be reliable in this case. 1181:

I consider Kacey Simon, Molly Garfunkel, and Grace King to each be antiheroes. David Israel told me on Twitter that he agrees, a little. I propose that they each be added to the list of TV antiheroes then.

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Knowledge (XXG) needs reliable sources, not personal opinions. If you don't have a reliable source that says that Darko is an anti-hero, then that is original research on your part and it should be deleted.

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Max Rockatansky from the Mad Max series is also an embodiment of the antihero due to his appearance as well as his reluctance to help out others and ultimately sacrifice himself for the greater good.

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To be fair, James Bond is not an anti-hero, especially not at the time he was written. He may have traits that in 2021 would be undesirable, but at the time, a womanizing assassin was a perfect hero.

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I think that the list is entirely debatable and dependent on personal opinion - for example, Stephen Dedalus of Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, it could be argued, is a hero to secular society

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appears as the anti-heroical central main antagonist (because he congratulated Lightning and Ramírez because they defeated a jerk and they saw Miss Fritter chasing Storm at the end of the videogame)

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Okay, I finally managed to figure out how to link it. I used the IGN article that was used on Jason Todd's wiki page. Since its good enough for that wiki, its good enough of a source here as well.

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be removed, if there is good reason to believe that no other sources will substantiate it, i.e. after a search for such sources has been done. I would have a problem with requiring sources "

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end up back at AFD. The suggestions from Piotrus should be an uncontroversial place to start and I would urge this towards better sources as Screen Rant is considered less than reliable at

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because all the sources that predate their election omit their name. If a fact can be established by reference to reliable sources, then the context of that establishment is irrelevant.

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Why are characters like Beetlejuice being listed as an anti-heros? As I recall, he was the villain of the piece, with the couple having to save the daughter from his attentions?

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So that source is fine. There is no real dispute. A reliable source, clearly listed on the list of reliable sources, calls someone an anti-hero, then they belong on the list.

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fiction) and prevent us from including information from (reliable) works analyzing individual works of fiction, areas of popular culture or regional fiction more in-depth.

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In any case, he's pretty much the original antihero in the fantasy genre... Just do a simple google search for Elric and antihero, and you will find a lot of sources...

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The long version: We cannot have a "List of X's" with a series of long arguments over whether or not each item is or is not and "X". Knowledge (XXG) does not present "

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mentions him as an 'Antihero' and gives two sources, one of which is broken. This is the working link, where the article states Patrick Bateman as being an antihero.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20121007025353/http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/tv/comic-con-2010-showtimes-antiheroes-hank-moody-dexter-morgan-get-new-season-teasers.php

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https://archive.is/20130410201009/http://www.free-times.com/index.php?cat=121304064644348&z_Issue_ID=11012912091306551&ShowArchiveArticle_ID=11003112092998631

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article but this is still a problem when the characters appeared in multiple adaptations. Batman and Catwoman are other examples. Can I move these into a new table?

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currently whether to split the list. It seems prudent to await the outcome of the current discussion on scope before discussing a potential split of the content.

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Really, the opening of this wiki page alone should convince anyone to add him to the literature list, but just keep on reading and there should be no doubt.

2176: 190: 2186: 300:. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about disagreements on a cited anti-hero's placement (see 2629:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140413131240/http://entertainment.msn.com/photos/gallery2.aspx?gallery=16015&photo=82dec84c-5c21-4aa0-9cee-866d798d982d

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The anime/manga section could include any character from tokyo ghoul or tokyo ghoul: re, with the exception of furuta, and various other members of V

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The claims are controversial because it's likely to be disputed. Screen Rant isn't rigorous about what makes a hero an anti-hero, and the list is too

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If they have a reference, leave them be. Some characters might not have their own separate Knowledge (XXG) article, but the series they are in does.

2380: 2054: 2024: 694:, is a prime example of an anti-hero in my opinion. To put it simply, he commits all sorts of crimes at first, but then ends up saving the universe. - 2122: 85: 2632: 1241: 1198: 998: 2240: 2454: 2132: 3643:: Benson sometimes will be a hero and an antagonist but in some episodes from Regular Show describing as him is the anti-heroic deuteragonist 3309:. Just wasting everyone's time. And the "listicle" as you call it is fine, a reliable source mentions different antiheroes, then it counts. 3101: 336: 3289:

Whether someone is a Senator from Rhode Island is an objective fact, whereas whether a character is an antihero is a subjective assessment.

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Heroes with sociopathic behaviours such as Alexandra Cabot from Josie, Thirty Thirty from BraveStarr, and McCoy & Worf from Star Trek.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150402145718/http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/movies/movie-news/judge-dredd-john-wagner--1308794

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that classification of a character as an antihero is not an exceptional claim. I see a certain subjectivity of the term, in which case

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EDIT: Sorry, I never looked under the "Literature" section, he is already there. Unable to delete this as I do not have an account.

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While I think he does, too, Knowledge (XXG) is not about personal opinions, its about finding reliable sources that support the claim.

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1050: 1032: 2224: 406:, it stays. Again, like the previous question, removing a character based on a personal opinion would fall under original research. 293: 104: 20: 2998: 2435:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140728223805/http://voices.yahoo.com/surviving-borat-where-sick-humor-satirizes-american-145575.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080923021938/http://www.newsaskew.com/includes/feature.shtml?id=EEuApFEpEleOgHOogB&style=single

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3/17/13 I agree, many of these should be considered Byronic heroes, which are ancestors to antiheroes but not the same thing.

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Might I suggest that "The Crow" also belongs on this list? James O'Barr's graphic novel version could be listed under comics.

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Your opinion, my opinion, and some guy on Twitter;s opinion are all irrelevant. Knowledge (XXG) requires reliable sources.

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http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/tv/comic-con-2010-showtimes-antiheroes-hank-moody-dexter-morgan-get-new-season-teasers.php

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Someone on Twitter claiming to be the writer for the show does not meet Knowledge (XXG) guidelines for reliable sources.

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Aravela 13 screen rant isnt an official reliable source as well as cbr.com. in nowhere does it say batman is an antihero

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Short term, I have removed them as unsourced. What are your sources? Have you looked at how existing sources are listed?

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https://web.archive.org/web/20121124010956/http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/maurice/htdocs/2005_02_01_archive.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120220054340/http://totallyjewish.com/entertainment/features_and_reviews/?content_id=3555

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Your sourcing looks good, especially considering this page has been a magnet for unsourced or poorly sourced opinions.

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But he is the arch typical antihero, pretty much all he characteristics listed earlier is found with this character.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070910235426/http://soapnet.go.com/behindthescenes/mimi/columns/2006/mimi_10252006.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070910235426/http://soapnet.go.com/behindthescenes/mimi/columns/2006/mimi_10252006.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110918091647/http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2003/05/13/spike_buffy/index1.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110918091647/http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2003/05/13/spike_buffy/index1.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131014171406/http://www.close-upfilm.com/features/Featuresarchive/fearandloathing.htm

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better off getting rid of it (perhaps instead writing about the most important examples in prose form in the main

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It does not matter whether you or I think a character is an antihero. Knowledge (XXG) requires reliable sources.

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And as I told you in response, you are categorically incorrect in that absolutist assertion since our policy on

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090430181859/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thearts/2008101154_steig10.html

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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examples that are generally (or at least fairly commonly) considered antiheroes rather than unduly presenting

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http://entertainment.msn.com/photos/gallery2.aspx?gallery=16015&photo=82dec84c-5c21-4aa0-9cee-866d798d982d

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120315193342/http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1521/The-Games-of-Spring-2006/p1/

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I'm not part of Knowledge (XXG) but I do believe that someone who is should add Damon Salvatore to the list.

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Information in any article only needs one reference to prove it if its in doubt. No reason to require more.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120811130204/http://benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/shifting-sherlock-holmes-in.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120811130204/http://benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/shifting-sherlock-holmes-in.html

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The point is that we do actually sometimes require multiple sources, which you should already know because

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It looks like the article already has this but I am going to still comment about anti-hero should include:

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previously amoral types that become heroes (this also includes former villains that were victims of the

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for relevant policy regarding why we don't decide which characters are anti-heroes). Any such comments

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110717032241/http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/05/cwc-garrus-vakarian/

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http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/23/jack-taylor-got-a-credibility-it-scarcely-deserved--iain-glen-3508463/

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120218201412/http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.453/pub_detail.asp

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120218201412/http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.453/pub_detail.asp

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I've had people tell me Charlotte was an anti-hero, but here it is in print now for the first time.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120217030430/http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/entertainment/ci_4423615

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The website does not meet Knowledge (XXG) guidelines on reliable sources. The Knowledge (XXG) page

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David Israel is the writer of the show, hence, his opinion is not irrelevent and he is reliable.

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anti-heroes, that would be much more appropriate. As it is, this article is a trivia-magnet. - -

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Bryan Mills from Taken, Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad and Darth Vader are all antiheroes too.

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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/movies/movie-news/judge-dredd-john-wagner--1308794

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120213122128/http://www.escmag.com/v5/features/feature.cfm?fv=5

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https://web.archive.org/web/20160116090236/http://press.optimumreleasing.net/dvd.php?id=145

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for relevant policy regarding why we don't decide which characters are anti-heroes) at the

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refer to the character in question as an antihero. That way, we should only end up with

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This large, convoluted list must be split into multiple ones, and I have made a request

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120111155208/http://ps2.ign.com/articles/710/710660p1.html

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An Amazon review is not a reliable source. You would need a review by an actual critic.

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Hi friends i saw some pages and videos from these characters who are/were anti-heroes:

3216: 2645:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2515:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2439:

http://voices.yahoo.com/surviving-borat-where-sick-humor-satirizes-american-145575.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120630001223/http://pc.ign.com/articles/832/832454p1.html

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http://voices.yahoo.com/surviving-borat-where-sick-humor-satirizes-american-145575.html

1931:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1729:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1674: 1593: 1532: 1496: 1424: 1295: 1256: 1211: 1108: 945: 909: 893: 871: 756: 711: 3447: 2685:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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http://www.newsaskew.com/includes/feature.shtml?id=EEuApFEpEleOgHOogB&style=single

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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http://www.newsaskew.com/includes/feature.shtml?id=EEuApFEpEleOgHOogB&style=single

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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I'll find a source, just give me a little time. Are there guidelines on the sources?

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Since when is describing a fictional character as an antihero an exceptional claim?

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120418083550/http://optimusfilms.20m.com/directors/ks/

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120418083550/http://optimusfilms.20m.com/directors/ks/

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appears as the minor antagonist (because Storm is the main antagonistic jerk) and

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As I said during the AfD, I would suggest adopting criteria akin to those used at

3578:, but should not be used for controversial statements related to living persons.' 2428: 2106: 520:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can 280:

for general discussion about disagreements on a cited anti-hero's placement (see

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collection of examples. So probably only characters should be included where

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http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/maurice/htdocs/2005_02_01_archive.html

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He's also mentioned on this article a couple of times as being an anti-hero.

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That's for Fringe theories and to prevent scam artist from tricking people.

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http://totallyjewish.com/entertainment/features_and_reviews/?content_id=3555

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http://soapnet.go.com/behindthescenes/mimi/columns/2006/mimi_10252006.html

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http://soapnet.go.com/behindthescenes/mimi/columns/2006/mimi_10252006.html

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http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/elric-of-melnibone-michael-moorcock

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Lord Byron's works defined the modern antihero. At the very least Conrad (

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http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2003/05/13/spike_buffy/index1.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090223213837/http://the-chosen.com/records/

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http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2003/05/13/spike_buffy/index1.html

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Not sure about the procedure for reporting issues but here you go.....

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http://www.close-upfilm.com/features/Featuresarchive/fearandloathing.htm

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http://www.close-upfilm.com/features/Featuresarchive/fearandloathing.htm

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http://www.close-upfilm.com/features/Featuresarchive/fearandloathing.htm

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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

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something not being done doesn't mean that it can't be or shouldn't be

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be in favour of having a fairly high threshold for what to consider a

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There is consensus that Screen Rant is a marginally reliable source.

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http://www.benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/shifting-sherlock-holmes-in.html

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http://www.benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/shifting-sherlock-holmes-in.html

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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thearts/2008101154_steig10.html

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Does a Review calling some fictional character an anti-hero qualify?

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http://features.teamxbox.com/xbox/1521/The-Games-of-Spring-2006/p1/

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Knowledge (XXG) doesn't allow fandom wikis to be used as sources.

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The Twitter is David Israel's and therefore, a reliable source. (

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provides no sources for the opinion that Elric is an anti-hero.

3146:. That is at least a major part of why it is such a mess. The 1860:" which is what each entry would be. Instead, we need to have 1095:

I don't know why they are called anti-heroes. This list looks

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specifically dealing with the subject of fictional antiheroes

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specifically dealing with the subject of fictional antiheroes

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http://videogames.yahoo.com/newsarticle?eid=360855&page=0

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Lately, I've noticed users removing sourced entries because

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Did you even see the link? There should be sources there...

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and limited the article to listing characters discussed as

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http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/05/cwc-garrus-vakarian/

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/12/breteastonellis

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s placement on this list. They're not an anti-hero because

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It is considered reliable for entertainment-related topics

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Talk:List of military disasters#Proposal for list criteria

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so as not to unduly include the views of tiny minorities.

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