Talk:M40 Gun Motor Carriage

1761:. It is not apparent that the evidence proves that "Gun Motor Carriage M40" is not a proper name. It might prove that the US Army was in the habit of not always capitalizing proper names. (A proper name does not cease to be a proper name because it is not capitalized. And the Army were soldiers, not English teachers). What Ngrams actually appears to show is that capital letters were extensively used in the 1940s and, even including use of expressions like "any gun motor carriage" (ie expressions which do not refer to a particular model), were still more frequent from the 1960s to the 1990s. The period from 2000 to 2010 could be a blip caused by the internet. Anyway, if capitalization is now completely dominant (and it seems to be) does it matter who caused that domination? If the US Army 1431:' is the invention of the US Army around World War II. It did not exist beforehand, it has no independent existence. It is capitalised, as is the wont of armies everywhere. There is no such thing as a "gun motor carriage". That's an adjectival, descriptive phrase that no-one uses. But "Gun Motor Carriage" is the US Army's chosen term for self-propelled artillery (at varying times). It should be capitalised. It should always be capitalised. It has no meaning, no robust sourcing otherwise when not capitalised. No other (AFAIK) armies have used this term, other than by inheritance, and it has no meaning in the non proper name form anywhere else. GMC is easily sourced: it's used throughout Chamberlain & Ellis, 3119:"The term 'Gun Motor Carriage' is the invention of the US Army around World War II. It did not exist beforehand, it has no independent existence. It is capitalised, as is the wont of armies everywhere. There is no such thing as a "gun motor carriage". That's an adjectival, descriptive phrase that no-one uses. But "Gun Motor Carriage" is the US Army's chosen term for self-propelled artillery (at varying times). It should be capitalised. It should always be capitalised. It has no meaning, no robust sourcing otherwise when not capitalised. No other (AFAIK) armies have used this term, other than by inheritance, and it has no meaning in the non proper name form anywhere else." 5125:"essentially a statistical question". No, we are talking PROPERNAME, not COMMONNAME. Searching for a PROPERNAME among generic terms is unrealistic, there are just too may variables. Example: US Army manuals, which you deny as RS anyway, only use the words as a proper name once or twice, the rest of the time it will be generically or by M-numbers. And how many books are about non-US Army subjects, which may have no proper names of anything, yet still use generic the term? GMC vs. HMC? First word in a sentence? I think you are trying to prove a negative with no facts. 3279: 5347:

until standardized as M43 in November 1945". Page 359: "In November 1943 the Army asked that Fisher convert 500 of the M10A1 then under construction into M36 Gun Motor Carriages." Page 366: "Massey-Harris produced 85 of the 155mm Howitzer Motor Carriage before the order was canceled". Pages 395: "so 104 M15A1 Multiple Gun Motor Carriages were converted to M34 40mm Gun Motor Carriages at ordnance depots in Japan... The resulting vehicle, the M34 Gun Motor Carriage, was classified as limited standard in September 1951...". This is from a paper copy.

1475: 471: 558: 531: 1953: 455: 1830:– The pages are all already at the requested new titles, so there's nothing to support, and what looks like a multi-RM was entered as a single-page RM, so no articles got notified of the intent (which is the opposite of what is proposed). Andy or a closer can restart it as a proper multi-RM from the existing titles to the intended capitalized titles, or can revert the recent moves and I'll open an RM to lowercase (add the ones he missed if you like 423: 568: 661: 487: 439: 3854:. But it's not, as I've shown repeatedly. Those occurrences in titles and tables have no bearing on the question. If the Army writes "M40 gun motor carriage" and "gun motor carriage M40" in sentences, they are telling us they do not treat it as a proper name. Similar with lots of other (non-Army) sources. So we should use lowercase, per all of guidance, not dress it up like the proper name that it is not. 3497:

forever. "I didn't pick any of these names, just working on their styling". You are changing them from a commonly used US Army format to nonsense. GMC is an arguably accurate, commonly used, and cool name, gmc is not clear as a US Army name and is archaic as a term. "to use names with "self-propelled" and such instead". Why should they? You are stepping on their toes, not the other way around. Close?

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no-one uses. But "Gun Motor Carriage" is the US Army's chosen term for self-propelled artillery (at varying times). It should be capitalised. It should always be capitalised. It has no meaning, no robust sourcing otherwise when not capitalised. No other (AFAIK) armies have used this term, other than by inheritance, and it has no meaning in the non proper name form anywhere else.

380: 369: 4039:. Cinderella157 said all I would have, so I need not repeat it all. In more of a discursive than link-laden summary: WP doesn't care that these things tend to get capitalized in US Army bureaucratese; WP doesn't use a military style guide and the military doesn't use ours. Capitalization of these entire phrases is not consistent across an overwhelming majority of 266: 222: 358: 347: 336: 2260: 2968:—Dicklyon has presented compelling arguments. Andy Dingley wrote, "WP:RS (real ones, not just counting Google hits from random prose) use GMC". Yes, but the existence of an initialism (which is capped by convention) has no bearing on the case of the expanded form. Andy, please don't personalise in these discussions. 3850:

things that are "consistently capitalized" in sources, or things that would "always be capitalized, even mid sentence". I'm aware of the possibility that even if the phrase "gun motor carriage" is generic, a name like "M40 Gun Motor Carriage" could be a proper name, or could be treated as one per WP guidelines,

3820:, English-language sentences". dick lyon, those are your own words. You posted them. We are not talking about text, we are, and always have been, talking about proper names. You just keep adding information that is no longer relevant. This request is about proper names. Period. dick lyon, you wrote the request!!! 4000:. Particularly not from the era of typewriters and minimal editing. Particularly not when the term is being used in a mish-mash of descriptive and ordinal forms. This is a little clearer for GMC than SPG because the generic use of 'gun motor carriage' is far more obscure than the ubiquitous 'self-propelled gun'. 5413:

page 258: "Although...France also plunged into modern heavy ordnance production...Adopted in 1890, the 120mm Short Gun Mle 90..." The next sentence, "The Mle 90 used...". Note that the first use a proper name, the second model number only. There is plenty of generic use, too. I'll keep trying, German

5170:

Edit add: These are Knowledge (XXG) production totals for the vehicles involved. They aren't RS, of course, but I'm using them for demonstration: M40 (311), M8 (1778), M2 (100) M13 (1,103), M16 (3,550), M19 (285), M21 (110), M3 (2202), M43 (24+24 conv. M40), T18 (2), T19 (324), T30 (500), T48 (962),

4955:

longer designations/descriptors that some would like to treat as proper names. However, the independent sources do not consistently capitalize it even inside such longer phrases. We've already been over this in detail in the RM. As with Hey_man_im_josh, I have to point out that that it is not helpful

3834:

dick lyon, since you don't address my main points, just keep repeating the same JUSTDONTLIKEIT garbage, this has become pointless. If anybody has a real question, I'm all ears, and dick lyons, I'll even read your stuff. But, dick lyon, you have lost all credibility with me and I'm tired of talking to

3710:

Chapter 1 "INTRODUCTION" section "1-1. a. This manual contains instructions for operating and servicing M809 series vehicles. These vehicles are:" Look at the names below. Those are the proper name the US Army uses. Black on white. Nothing ambiguous. Proper name. Anything you do to change that proper

2884:

says "For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence." I'm far from the only one who interprets our guidelines as saying that we should not treat these phrases as

4320:

The point I'm making is that notices about ongoing discussions are supposed to be neutral, else they are considered canvassing. His notice was not neutral, as it contained his opposing (strawman) argument ("Remove all capitalisation in proper names"). It was also not following the standard process

3957:

RS (which are the ones we're supposed to weigh most heavily). It is also clear that ghits differ in their count of these. Google is not RS. It is even clear (and this is where your legwork has indeed shown something interesting) that the 'RS' sources are far from consistent in their capitalisation.

3658:

Yes, pretty rude, but let's get back to the point. I have no problem with the acronyms GMC and HMC, and don't see why those keep coming up. They don't imply capitalization of the expanded phrases, which are not archaic, are still in use, and have always been widely lowercase even while some styles

5442:

After he pivoted to wanting to see secondary sources, I added some of those to the same section (in the collapsed archive above). There's no particular point in addressing the sources you found that capitalize it, if other good sources use lowercase, which is clearly the case, both by examples and

5239:

Page 3 Section I 1.a.: "These instructions... It contains information on the operation and maintenance of the 105-mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M7, as well as..." Page 3 Section II 3.a.: "The 105-mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M7 is a...". Pages 4, 5, 7, and 8 have illustrations captioned "105-mm Howitzer

5174:

That's 14 models with a total of 11,256 units combined. "Gun Motor Carriage", "Multiple Gun Motor Carriage", "Howitzer Motor Carriage", and "Mortar Carrier". Models who's proper name isn't used all that much to start with. M numbers and probably acronyms are used more often. In front of those total

5128:

Dicklyon's million words about when "gun motor carriage" was used generically are nothing but a distraction. Nobody has ever denied that the term is used generically, that's just assumed (by me, at least). An article about an individual vehicle hardly needs the etymology of the word "gun". Waste of

5078:

Do you want to talk about "forking"? The only reason I put this separate was to stop Dicklyon from forking between these books. He has been BLUDGENING and forking this whole page, undiscussed move, bad form, and now this. I reverted him simply because I don't trust him to act in good faith. I think

3753:

Well, gosh, that truck manual has a lot going on, just like the motor carriage manuals. On page i that you point to, they have for example "Truck, Tractor, Wrecker (tab) M819", and on page 1-1 "M819 Tractor Wrecker Truck W/W". Change 1 p 1-8 has a table with just "M819" under "Model" and "Tractor

3567:

I agree that gmc is found in books/sources about the US Army in WWII, but I think it is usually a "phrase"(?). The Army did use the term then, there were tons of gun/howitzers around then. I, and maybe others, think GMC is also used as a proper name. Not just either, but both, in their place. A M40

3466:

I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm going to edit add: I think you have cherry-picked sources to invent a COMMONNAME out of a term that was a specialty term when it was actually used, fifty years ago. I do understand the lower-case reasoning of the name but think you are only adding confusion. If you

1531:

immediately above, you'll see why pretty much everything you've said in your nominating paragraphs is false. The term came from Britain and France, before and after WWI, not from the US Army around WWII. The Army used it in lowercase, typically, in sentence contexts. The generic term has a clear

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In the "M15 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage" entry: "The T28E1...would eventually evolve into the M15 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage...led to the U.S. Army putting it into full production in early 1943, and 680 were produced under the M15 GMC designation" (they missed a "M", MGMC). This is aimed at scale

4007:

here. That is not up to me, it's a question of CONSENSUS through the regular WP method. Which, given the loss of editors in recent years, has become little more than a beauty contest of editor popularity and I know that my ugly mug carries little weight within the elegant tea party circuit of ANI.

3892:

a 'simple maintenance process'. It is one editor pushing yet another instalment of a very long-running campaign to prioritise WP:MOS over WP:RS. To change our descriptions and titles of real-world objects, with good real-world sourcing of the format of their name, just to comply with a minor local

3849:

Well, I'm happy to say I know and love proper names, and always capitalize them, even mid sentence (as in "I disagree with Sammy on this"). But since there's no clear and definitive way to tell what's a proper name, or what WP should treat as a proper name, our guideline is treat as a proper name

3692:

I don't really do guns, I do trucks, but they are parallel. I'm going to use the M809 series. A Technical Manual (TM) is about the equipment, a Field Manual (FM) is how to use it. At the G/HMC time they used a simpler number system, and the manuals were aimed at a lower educational level than now,

3481:

I couldn't agree more that "the huge amount of discussion over such a minor detail is a waste of the efforts by many editors" and that you're "beating a dead horse". Blame Andy Dingley for fighting a simple maintenance process per guidelines. And I didn't pick any of these names, just working on

3447:

I believe that the huge amount of discussion over such a minor detail is a waste of the efforts by many editors who could easily be more useful elsewhere. That a single editor thinks that they are so important that they can squander resources like this for their own personal opinion on such a tiny

1469:

But because Google can also trawl up some occurrences of it uncapitalised, these have been discarded. The uncapitalised form is used literally as syntax in many places, and Google easily finds them. But as semantics this still only ever refer to the Gun Motor Carriage as designated by the US Army.

5309:

Of course the Army is primary. "You" (group) simply don't seem to address any secondary that have been shown. I'll repeat a couple. "By the way, all-caps titles and captions are meaningless-they do not represent usage in prose.". Of course "all-caps titles" are meaningless, that's why I put (sic)

4625:

Acronyms: I think the US Army uses acronyms to the extreme. Some, like radar and sonar, are pretty generic. They are lower-case because none of the words are proper names. Others are upper case because the words they come from are proper names, such as GMC for Gun Motor Carriage. If so all use of

2938:

with several other, T49 gun motor carriage and T67 gun motor carriage. I know you've argued at time we should follow the official Army docs (e.g. in this section where you claimed "It's only used in sources from the US Army, who capitalise", which is false in both parts), which is why I had been

5437:

The term 'Gun Motor Carriage' is the invention of the US Army around World War II. It did not exist beforehand, it has no independent existence. It is capitalised, as is the wont of armies everywhere. There is no such thing as a "gun motor carriage". That's an adjectival, descriptive phrase that

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Page 364: "The vehicle was designated T83 during testing and, and production by Pressed Steel Car Company in February 1945, even before the vehicle had been standardized as 155mm Gun Motor Carriage M40, which occurred in May 1945". "These vehicles were referred to as T89 Howitzer Motor Carriages

3074:

When I looked yesterday, prior to reverting the earlier undiscussed moves, it appears many sources do indeed treat these as a proper name. And I say this as someone generally sympathetic to the notion that we over-capitalise on Knowledge (XXG). Come back with some actual data supporting the move

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SMcCandlish posted "As with Hey man im josh, I have to point out that that it is not helpful to talk-fork things like this into new threads. Just make your RM-related arguments in the RM. Altering this to a level-3 heading so the closer of the RM can tell it is part of the RM discussion, and it

3733:

This TM is not from any of the targeted vehicles, the same time, even the same format. I do think it shows that the US Army capitalizes pretty much everything in their proper names, by their choice. Published by the GPO. Black on white. I believe that every edit you have made to sourced US Army

3496:

Now you blame somebody else. "a simple maintenance process" is actually a disputed move. "per guidelines" is your opinion. This whole place is designed to be flexible, the only thing I have ever seen carved in stone is image copyright. All these articles are GMC and everyone else has been happy

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yes, thanks for the ping - I will circle back to this in the next couple of days... haven't quite found the time yet. Also, I'd like to apologize to you for the overly harsh tone in my comment above, calling this "lazy". There was no call for that in polite discourse and I've struck it from my

768: 3403:(typical) shows "155-mm Gun Motor Carriage M40" as a proper name on page "ii". On page "3", in context, it looks like gun/howitzer motor carriage is used as a description. A specific vehicle would have a proper name? (I doubt that gmc could be shown as COMMONNAME but that's for the searchers). 3636:

Do you think this is a US vs. Brit English? Let me assure you that it sounds equally stupid from both directions. Andy is hardly US. That is part of the coolness, who else but the Army could think that way? Most fans (I'm not MILHIST, by the way) and all professional users recognize it. Your

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No, certainly not. I can accept that those are accurate official designations and are capitalized in the table. But if you look at how they use them in sentences, they use lowercase, signifying that they don't treat them as proper names. Using title case for table entries and list items,

2322:

I'm not sure how to interpret the hyphenation in "gun-motor" here. Probably it's meant to be a connection between "gun" and "motor carriage", which good typographers would do with an en dash if they understood that was the intent: "gun–motor carriage"; thankfully, that confusion went away.

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4665:

supports "Gun/Howitzer Motor Carriage" and/or "Self-Propelled Gun/Howitzer" (note upper case on "Self-Propelled") as a proper name for: M3, M36, M37, M40, M41, M43 M44, M52, T19, T30, T82. The M10 is a "Tank Destroyer", "tank destroyer" and "self-propelled" (the current term) are also used

3714:

Table 1-1. Vehicle Class Information. On the left side is the column "Vehicle". Look at the names below. Those are the proper name the US Army uses. Black on white. Nothing ambiguous. Proper name. Anything you do to change that proper name is OR, your interpretation of the literal source.

3121:

By pointing out a bunch of Army books, and the origin and early use of the term, I showed how wrong he was in every part of that rant. So now's he saying ignore the old Army books and look at secondary sources, so I added a couple of those. Again, the evidence I've collected is above at

1784:

criterion for a proper name: "consistently capitalized in sources". Even in particular non-independent Army sources it's not consistently capitalized. And stats show lowercase is more common. And nobody is saying that capitalization is "wrong" – it's just not WP's style to capitalize

1419:

This is a large batch that have already been moved, without discussion. However this move has been opposed by multiple editors and is likely to be reverted. To avoid edit-warring, there should be a real move discussion for them. An attempt to discuss this at the related move discussion

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are identical vehicles except for gun tubes, ..." and many other lowercase uses in the text and figure captions; also quite a few capitalized uses of both, but not close to "consistently capitalized". Have you looked at some other manuals that you're talking about? Got links?

3275: 4984:– which assertion makes no difference as all to the fact (demonstrated here with copious sources) that it's used as the proper name form. This is a lack of consistency (in an age when editing was too tiresome to enforce it), but it doesn't stop the proper name form existing. 792: 1656:

The present capitalization is the lowercase, and nobody is proposing to lowercase proper names such as Sherman or acronyms such as MBT. If you think it's productive to make your case in the context of this malformed RM, then some reference to guidelines and policies such

446: 236: 5313:"You" have requested this move, "you" are supposed to show why. You have been shown the actual name (primary), what some of the few common sources sources say (secondary), and I threw a few links in for a sort of "commonname" (note lower case) feeling. You have used 4937:. It is not a case that there are some sources that use the capitalised form but whether this is consistently done across sources. This then becomes essentially a statistical question to determine what proportion use the capitalised form and what proportion doesn't. 788: 4326: 3361:

Most sources don't capitalize these phrases. Even a lot of Army publications don't, in spite of what Cinderelli call a propensity. So, no, RSs are not being overridden, and are looked to collectively to inform our decisions about what to treat as a proper name.

1492:. Our style guide prefers lower case. The sources support capitalisation. If Knowledge (XXG) were to develop an armoured division, it might equip itself with gun motor carriages. But it was the US Army that did so instead, and they went with Gun Motor Carriage. 3429:

I've already shown in the data/evidence discussed above that that manual uses lowercase (mostly) in sentences. And many other Army publications do, too. The way they cap it in the title on page ii is irrelevant. So your "I think" reason for opposing is wrong.

2257:, section on this talk page, lists and links some historical references where the terms are generic and where they are lowercase even when paired with the various M and T designators. I copied it into this RM in the collapsed block below, per Amakuru's request. 740:. It's irrelevant when the term began being capitalized; the majority of sources use the uppercase format which is generally aligned with the longstanding (since at least 1981) naming scheme for U.S. military ordnance nomenclature as defined in MIL-STD-1464A. 3754:

Wrecker" under "Vehicle". But when they get into text, English-language sentences, they use "The M819 tractor wrecker truck" (as you note, I'm right about that). And figure captions use "TRACTOR WRECKER TRUCK (M819)". Then looking at our title policy, at

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decapitalized the name in the 1940s, I might agree that capitalization was potentially factually inaccurate or a neologism, but that does not seem to be the case. Is there anything like MIL-STD-1464A from the 1940s that says that capitalization is "wrong"?

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The first line says "GMC" in caps, as does the "HMC M43. That sort of kills your lower-case argument, and that's the basic point here, correct? I think you may have been too quick there, wrong link? I only glanced at that page, I'll check out anything you

5110:

I never presented any link as RS, although some may be. I used them as illustrations, I specifically said "This is an hour on Google, I would guess somebody with a library could do better". Then I found a few books on-line and posted them after that with

3571:

On one of my articles you changed "ponton" (archaic Army) to "pontoon", which humans use, but then later you changed it back to "ponton". I imagine that it was used in the US Civil War. Yet you picked it up, you are reading the sources. Even going back.

3965:

There is a view (which I despise, I would go that far) that we should ignore RS in favour of MOS. The RS are just wrong and it's our job to fix that. It would not be fair of me to claim that this is the view you hold. It is, in particular, the basis of

2791:

generic terms. Some similar terms such as 'self-propelled gun' are more difficult, as those are both title and generic terms. But GMC (and the obvious variants) has not become genericised in the same way. It's only used in sources from the US Army, who

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just because the military has a propensity to wear out both upper and lower case character sets on a typewriter evenly and capitalise to introduce initialisms. This is not our style. There is evidence of mixed usage at arms length from the subject.

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says "Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG)." and

3904:

The fact that you'd be just as happy in changing the wording of the names altogether (so long as they were lowercase) shows just how little interest you have in accuracy and sourcing, over presentation. That is no way to write an encyclopedia.

3823:

dick lyon, it seems to come down to you just refusing to accept the idea of proper names. You can post the same garbage, shout as often as you like, but your arguments are just the same old stuff and don't address what has been said to you.

3788:

The manuals you're looking at tell you quite a bit about how the Army likes to style items in lists and tables and titles; if they tell you anything about what they consider to be proper names, they indicate no, these model designations are

5268:

Page 1 Section I 1a: "They apply only to the 90-mm Gun Motor Carriage M36B1". Page 5 Section II 3a: "The 90-mm Gun Motor Carriage M36B1 is an armored...". Pages 2, 3, 6, and 7 have illustrations captioned "90-mm Gun Motor Carriage M36B1".

5224:

page 2, 5-22 supports "81-mm Mortar Carriers M4 and M4A1", "75-mm Gun Motor Carriage M3 and M3A1", "Multiple Gun Motor Carriage M13" (also M15 and M15A1, M16), and "81-mm Mortar Carrier M21" in text, list, table, and illustration captions.

4916:

Clarity. That RM is a sewer, partly my fault. I just want to put this up clearly. Any one who comes here can judge for themselves. Sort of an anti-tactic tactic, that's all. You, with no bias, can do whatever you want with it. Thank you.

1555:. After that, restart this RM discussion and it will make more sense. Or I'll restart it, since I'm favor of lowercase, and it's odd for you to propose a move that you oppose. Or propose a move to upper case if you prefer. Not this. 5310:

after all of them. Images aren't RS but their captions are (go ahead and argue, I'm not hunting old TPs) and they're all mixed case. "they do not represent usage in prose". We aren't discussing "prose", we are discussing PROPERNAME.

5132:

I can only see this as a MOS movement who values their own opinions more than being accurate with RS. There seems to have been zero effort by this group to actually check accuracy, what the PROPERNAME actually is, only to deny any.

3544:

That line does not negate the fact that immediately above, and on several other pages in the book, they spell out "gun motor carriage". And would they use the acronym GMC if the term it expands to was archaic? Seems unlikely.

430: 232: 2543:". other pages mention howitzer motor carriage M7 more times, including two with all-caps 105-MM. HOWITZER MOTOR CARRIAGE M8. and p. 235 has GUN MOTOR CARRIAG M10. No "Gun Motor Carriage" nor "Howitzer Motor Carriage" styling. 1088:". other pages mention howitzer motor carriage M7 more times, including two with all-caps 105-MM. HOWITZER MOTOR CARRIAGE M8. and p. 235 has GUN MOTOR CARRIAG M10. No "Gun Motor Carriage" nor "Howitzer Motor Carriage" styling. 2355:

Note that the hyphenation between a number and a unit abbreviation, and period after the abbreviation ("155-mm.") was once common, but is now not consistent with international standards (and WP style) about SI units and such.

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meaning, as seen in early sources, even if the term seems a bit awkward or stilted. The generic "gun motor carriage" is frequently paired with letter/number designators such as M40 and M10, from as early as 1939 and 1940.

798:

These are clear enough proof that caps are "unnecessary", and our style is to avoid unnecessary capitalization. Just like with all the unanimous RM consensuses on the light tanks, medium tanks, heavy tanks, armored cars,

3707:" in bold. Look at the names below. Those are the proper name the US Army uses. Black on white. Nothing ambiguous. Proper name. Anything you do to change that proper name is OR, your interpretation of the literal source. 153: 5420:

I like doing sources and may edit add more but only if somebody else is posting, otherwise let it close. You should answer for the audience but I think we've probably said it all to ourselves. You have a nice day/night.

3529:

What's going on? The first line of text, "The T83 was later designated the 155mm GMC M40 in May 1945", directly contradicts your position. Farther down "In November 1945, the T89 was standardized as the 8-inch HMC M43".

1701:

Right, and in all the discussions we've ever had about case, I can't recall anyone disagreeing with the principle that proper names should be capitalized. So saying that's what you're for doesn't really say anything.

4956:

to talk-fork things like this into new threads. Just make your RM-related arguments in the RM. Altering this to a level-3 heading so the closer of the RM can tell it is part of the RM discussion, and it closes with it.

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with "gun motor carriage M15A1", "gun motor carriage M10", "gun motor carriage M12", "gun motor carriage M18", "gun motor carriage M36", "howitzer motor carriage M7", and more in ALL-CAPS, but none in Title Case. And

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And when I wrote about "an hour out searching and asking around town" that was a feeble attempt at humor, relative to there being few examples of these motor carriers out there and search results being meaningless.

5028:). Yes, there are sources that capitalise the name but the criteria to be applied is not the absolute number but the proportion and whether this is consistently done (and copious is a bit too generous in any case). 2411: 956: 1209:. If the proposer wants to move these articles back to "Gun Motor Carriage", then open an RM for that. Doing a "move discussion" pointing at the current targets is nonsensical and malformed and out of process. 2299:

Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" (previous section heading, indicating my purpose of refuting Andy's claim that the US Army made up the term and that it has no meaning other than as a proper

5106:. Why? It has a preview, showing actual pages. I left this one for last because it is a scale modeler's book. So what? It doesn't matter what audience it is aimed at, only that the information is correct. RS. 2614: 2604:

1149:

1642:"? There seems to be an increasing amount of unnecessary indiscriminate decapitalization against long standing status quo in recent months on this project. I personally wonder if a moratorium is desirable. 3781:

Knowledge (XXG) avoids unnecessary capitalization. In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, ... . Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized;

3771:

When using a numerical model designation, the words following the designation should be left uncapitalized (for example, "M16 rifle" or "M6 bomb service truck") unless it is a proper noun (for example, M1

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I would say, that a review of sources does not support caps and we discount caps used to introduce an acronym, which is seen in sources. It is not our style to capitalise when introducing initialisms.

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Nobody here wants to override anything from reliable sources. The guideline question is whether these terms are "consistently capitalized" in reliable sources. I've shown you before, at the section

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is a RS? Why is that specific book not RS? I said it supports "Gun/Howitzer Motor Carriage"..."Mortar Carrier". Can you come up with a hard copy that shows I lied about that? Do you deny that

3764:. So why would we pick one of the variously styles bits out of that Army manual and use it instead of what our policy suggests, the thing it would be commonly called in writing about it? And 3512: 3467:

can't let it go why don't you at least try using the screamingly obvious "self-propelled" that the rest of the planet uses? At least people other than geeks would get a clue about the subject.

1478: 5536: 5018: 3233:, which is most often capitalised when it does appear). But overall, I think there's enough variety in what sources call it that declaring a definitive proper name seems against the spirit of 5025: 1421: 4075:- Can we please tone it down? I shouldn't have to play class-monitor like this but a discussion about capitalisation should definitely not lead to the kind of discussions I'm seeing above. 2449: 994: 3831:

dick lyon, then you drag out your interpretation of some MOS detail, which apparently says that proper names can't be used. You have the power to change proper names to whatever you want.

3444:

I believe that you are changing proper names to an obsolete description that means nothing to anybody other than a WWII US Army Armored/Artillery fan, and they would know the proper name.

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And while we are on the subject, these names may be the wrong way round ie it possibly should be " Gun Motor Carriage M40" rather than "M40 Gun Motor Carriage", looking at the sources.

2344: 1551:– the articles are already at the proposed new titles. One result of this is that the articles are not notified. Andy, if you want to revert recent undiscussed moves, you can ask at 889: 3977:

If we disagree over some real fundamental point, I think it would be fair for me to describe it thus: I think that RS are showing that the capitalised version was in use, that it was

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WP:RS (real ones, not just counting Google hits from random prose) use GMC. Chamberlain & Ellis is accepted on WP as our standard go-to for WWII American armour. They capitalise.

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This is another Doyle book, he's "prolific". They are RS for their vehicle and I could have used some here to jack the title count but they are just piling on the good one above.

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Page 5: Section II 3 a. "General. The 3-inch Gun Motor Carriage M10A1 is an armored..." Pages 3, 6, 7, 9, and 10 have illustrations captioned "3-inch Gun Motor Carriage M10A1".

3950:

Absolute rubbish. You demean yourself by resorting to such weak sophistry. You're supposed to be smarter than that. Would you publish a research paper with such weak logic in it?

2843:

Why do you keep presenting yourself as the great Defender of the Wiki and the only person observing policy (you're not), and then going on to misquote that same policy? That is

3229:. I don't think we necessarily have enough data to be 100% certain on these exact terms (most of your sources seem to use variant descriptive terms rather than the exact phrase 615: 147: 5491: 4951:

Re: 'the words "gun motor carriage" are used both generically and as a proper name' – This does not actually appear to be the case at all. Rather, the phrase is sometimes used

321: 278: 5496: 3400: 5118:"Re: 'the words "gun motor carriage" are used both generically and as a proper name' – This does not actually appear to be the case at all." Prove it. I have just given you 4212:. Agree with SMcCandlish. The capitalisation rules should be strengthened, not weakened; it should not only be consistently capitalised not in a majority but in almost all. 3452:(and "borders" is a weasel-word). A person who I once considered the second smartest person I had met here is now so narrowly focused... Shame they can't step back a touch. 3089:

Shall I copy the linked section of evidence into this new RM then? Nobody is denying that "many sources do indeed treat these as a proper name", but even many more do not.

2582:(printed lowercase thus, but with all-caps main title, in the book) suggests that these are types, not names. Internally, the books is not consistent, but mostly lowercase. 1127:(printed lowercase thus, but with all-caps main title, in the book) suggests that these are types, not names. Internally, the books is not consistent, but mostly lowercase. 3996:

If robust primary sources use other capitalisations too, then this dilutes the fact that capitalisation of the canonical name for these vehicles is supported by RS but it

3700:

A bunch of warnings and Changes crap up the top. Changes are updates, the books are loose leaf, remove page-insert page. You have to go to PDF page 13 to get to the meat.

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capitalize them (not consistently in Army pubs, not consistently in historian writing, but mixed everywhere). So I'm not understanding the basis of your opposition here.

846:

While waiting for some responses on the discussion above, and/or a replacement of the RM section below by a properly formed RM, I'll collect some notes in this section.

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To the first set posted: Amazon adds for books are not reliable sources and are not evidence of usage in the books. The web sites linked do not appear to be RSs nor are

4578:

Edit add: This one includes: "The M12 was given the formal US Army designation of "155mm Gun Motor Carriage" in keeping with US Army military nomenclature of the time".

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and others, where there is a valid lowercase form as a generic term (even though the capitalised form also exists). The evidence supporting this page move is here,

307: 4092:: I have posted a new section labeled "Sources for Gun Motor Carriage as a proper name" immediately below this RM. The information in it relates to this discussion. 3601:

that TM-9-2320-260-10, pages i, Chapter 1 "INTRODUCTION" section "1-1. a" and "Table 1-1. Vehicle Class Information" have accurate proper names? Yes or no question.

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no sources given to support this rename, or the wild claim here that WP:MOS overrules WP:RS. Are we just expected to kowtow to your self-appointed authority (again)?

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by secondary RS to be used in the description of them (this is why secondary RS beat primary, because they're the authorities we defer to when they make deliberate

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that TM-9-2320-260-10, pages i, Chapter 1 "INTRODUCTION" section "1-1. a" and "Table 1-1. Vehicle Class Information" have accurate proper names? Yes or no question.

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My initial focus on early primary sources and Army sources was to refute Andy's arguments in his previous RM attempt, where he wrote this bunch of false stuff:

5010:) or to introduce an initialism (which WP doesn't do). There is a false equivalence between capitalisation and what it a proper noun|name - not everything that 79: 3795:

proper names, because if they were they'd capitalize them when using them in sentences. Hence my wonderment on what is the basis for your opposition here.

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are identical vehicles except for gun tubes, ..." and many other lowercase uses in the text and figure captions; also quite a few capitalized uses of both.

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are identical vehicles except for gun tubes, ..." and many other lowercase uses in the text and figure captions; also quite a few capitalized uses of both.

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says "The 155-mm gun motor; carriage M40 and 8-inch howitzer motor carriage 43 are identical vehicles except for ..." and such in sentences and captions.

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The hyphen between number and spelled-out unit, as a modifier compound ("75-millimeter gun") is still good style. But the capitalized Howitzer here was

969:

The hyphen between number and spelled-out unit, as a modifier compound ("75-millimeter gun") is still good style. But the capitalized Howitzer here was

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definitely works as a descriptive phrase, even if the upper case version is sometimes seen in sources as a proper name, so we're fine on that score. —

3117:

The section I assembled above was primarily to refute Andy's previous line of argument, which he made in the malformed RM attempt above, where he said,

1634:

does appear to be a proper name. The present capitalization is the status quo and there is no indication it is actually "wrong". Anyway, what is next? "

1470:

There are no gun motor carriages that are not Gun Motor Carriages, and are more appropriately labelled in this form. That is a difference to the term

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be capitalised is a proper noun|name. However, nouns|names that are truely proper nouns|names are capitalised with near universal consistency (see

3031:

Most of those precedents were not proposed by me, nor by BarrelProof, and all had consensus of editors. Please stop trying to make this personal.

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I know, I spent an hour out searching and asking around town, and didn't come up with so much as a lead on any of these. Maybe they don't exist?

3761:

leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence

5079:

this works, looks good, and if anyone else made that edit I'd have liked it. I told that to josh, you have done it (even with bias) and I'm fine.

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p. 802: "... the gun would go into action on its self-propelled gun-carriage, muzzle leading, or, as an American would say, 'business end first'"

857:

p. 802: "... the gun would go into action on its self-propelled gun-carriage, muzzle leading, or, as an American would say, 'business end first'"

4008:

But to choose MOS over RS will still be a bad decision. The only thing worse is to pretend that it's one being made on the basis of 'evidence'.

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That is the question here. The only question. Not whether MOS doesn't favour capitalisation, but if the title is to be treated as a proper name

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for propelling the carriages originated during the war in the United States and France, and, curiously enough, was conceived independently ..."

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where I quoted quite a few options from sources. There's no proper name, and the descriptive names are quite variable in order and in style.

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for propelling the carriages originated during the war in the United States and France, and, curiously enough, was conceived independently ..."

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Cinderella197 said: "Amazon adds for books are not reliable sources and are not evidence of usage in the books." Edit add: YOU ARE CORRECT!!!

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The proposal is based on reliable sources. Why do you say ignores? Did you read the evidence section (the collapsed archive stripe) above?

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has "M40 motor carriage 155-mm gun". And so on. Clearly descriptive of the M40's type, like the rest of the gun motor carriages, not a name.

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them in the generic sense, but does capitalise the same term when it's used as an ordinal or naming term, derived from the primary sources.

3017:, not by 'precedents' and 'proof by authority' of one editor. Especially not when it's always the same editor banging the same tired drum. 30: 3616:

especially important and official ones, is a typical style, but WP does not do that, not even in tables, list items, headings, or titles.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the

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First, I am posting to SMcCandlish and Cinderella157 sort of jointly, if either one objects... I'm not, and won't, addressing Dicklyon.

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Sources that capitalize it are mostly from recent years after Knowledge (XXG) started capping it. Most older sources use lowercase.

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in the order that they first posted. This is meant to be information, not discussion. Thank you. (re-formated w/help from Dicklyon)

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above, that sources do not mostly capitalize. No standard go-to source on WWII American armour overrides that, and our guideline

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I think you have put the bar for proof of PROPERNAME unreasonably high. I have provided three RS (two by the same author, though)

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

3568:"GMC" is one of many "gmc"s. You have scrolls from the 20's showing the term being used, why wouldn't they use it as a name too? 74: 4235:

you use RS PROPERNAME? Three to five SECONDARY RS, as are shown here, are not enough? Do you have three to five RS saying this

3311:. These are not inherently proper nouns but descriptions of the equipment written in army backward speak. Captalisation is not 2263:

show dominant lowercase for * motor carriage, with an upward trend in caps only after Knowledge (XXG) capitalized them in 2006.

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Everyone can have opinions about what's a proper name, but the guidelines say how we determine that question, using sources.

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sort of 8th grade to HS. There are codes in the numbers now, too. Today an "-10" is the basic operator's manual. Welcome to

1631: 65: 2499:. A recent blip up in capitalization after all the Knowledge (XXG) article titles were capitalized is also apparent there. 1759: 1756: 1754: 1751: 1044:. A recent blip up in capitalization after all the Knowledge (XXG) article titles were capitalized is also apparent there. 5090:

is RS? Can you show why? Have you reviewed the book before you said that it doesn't support PROPERNAME? Do you deny that

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in the order that they first posted. This is meant to be information, not discussion. I am going to leave now. Thank you.

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British and American Tanks of World War II: The complete illustrated history of British, American and Commonwealth tanks,

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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James, if you really think the move to lowercase was not in accord with our guidelines or policies, you can simply ask at

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British and American Tanks of World War II: The complete illustrated history of British, American and Commonwealth tanks,

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is RS? Why? It has a preview, showing actual pages. You certainly don't want to look at pages 297-298. Do you deny that

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Pings only work if they're posted in a paragraph with a new signature. None of those attempted pings above worked. See

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their styling. I would have no objection if milhist editors wanted to use names with "self-propelled" and such instead.

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More histories (added during the new RM, after Andy tacked from emphasizing old Army usage to modern secondary sources):

2988: 2731:– if you don't respond, we'll have to assume you have no support for your assertion "proper vehicle names per manuals". 2266: 129: 2594:

talks about how motor traction was added to gun carriages around WWI, and illustrates using the M40 gun motor carriage.

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talks about how motor traction was added to gun carriages around WWI, and illustrates using the M40 gun motor carriage.

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has "the U.S. Army also fielded the 155mm gun motor carriage M40 as well as the 8-inch howitzer motor carriage M43."

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On page i, below "OPERATOR’S MANUAL FOR 5-TON, 6X6, M809 SERIES TRUCKS (DIESEL)", the first column on the left says "

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where we started to discuss this. Keep in mind that "appear to be a proper name" is really not part of the criteria.

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Am I right in inferring that you think that only proper names can have all-caps acronyms? Or did I read you wrong?

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only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources

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Throughout WWII and the post-war years, lowercase was more common than uppercase for the various motor carriages

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Throughout WWII and the post-war years, lowercase was more common than uppercase for the various motor carriages

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This is back in your court. If you want the titles capitalized, you can either start a multi-RM to do that (see

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Of course, you are entitled to revert as it was not explicitly discussed; and then we can open an RM discussion.

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is probably the most authoritative writer on AFVs and he capitalises. He also carefully capitalises SPG and APC

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You have only countered with theories. You seem more interested in proving what the name isn't than what it is.

4780: 4521: 3641: 2626: 5330: 5091: 4649: 2618: 2381:(Government Printing Office, 1921) chapter "GUN AND HOWITZER MOTOR CARRIAGES" on the opening page, listed as " 1197: 926:(Government Printing Office, 1921) chapter "GUN AND HOWITZER MOTOR CARRIAGES" on the opening page, listed as " 208: 190: 175: 5006:

be used in English other than for a proper noun|name, such as for emphasis, distinction or significance (see

791:

has a list section "Heavy field artillery motor carriages – total" with "M40 (T85), for 155mm gun" under it.

5300: 5045: 4942: 3381: 3321: 2622: 2006: 1605:, so none of the articles are being notified, nor the capped redirects. Better start over. Or just ask at 277:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 3953:

It is clear that the capitalisation of the specific term GMC is used by RS, both primary RS and very sound

2473:(T. Nelson and Sons Publishing Company, Incorporated; volume V stamped Nov. 14 1939) has on p. 17 "155-mm. 1018:(T. Nelson and Sons Publishing Company, Incorporated; volume V stamped Nov. 14 1939) has on p. 17 "155-mm. 4989: 4013: 3910: 3399:

I think the US Army uses "Gun Motor Carriage" as a proper name and "gun motor carriage" as a description.

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Nelson's Perpetual Loose-leaf Encyclopædia: An International Work of Reference, Complete in Twelve Volumes

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Nelson's Perpetual Loose-leaf Encyclopædia: An International Work of Reference, Complete in Twelve Volumes

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is meaningless, I have agreed from the beginning that the terms are used generically. "But when they get

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I'm sure I've missed something, but the real world... Oh, and they're talking about me being rude to you

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lists RM discussions of the last few years as precedents for lowercase on this sort of title, mostly per

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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —

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reads like an admission that the phrase doesn't rise to the level that we should cap it per the MOS but

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I think I am User:Dicklyon, asking you to clarify why you are opposing the move I proposed. 'nuf said.

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Catalogue of the Public Documents of the and of All Departments of the Government of the United States

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Catalogue of the Public Documents of the and of All Departments of the Government of the United States

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I hope you had a happy weekend, too. Still wondering what's your take on the evidence I collected.

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when you get a chance, let us know what you think of the evidence, and of the alt proposal for M21.

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lower-case destroys that, you are translating military into civilian and it isn't clear either way.

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I wish I had taken a screenshot, I didn't realize previews changed. It was two full pages of text

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

5463: 5448: 5296: 5194: 5041: 4938: 4891: 4842: 4828: 4814: 4686: 4626:"GMC" or "HMC" are the same as the proper name "Gun Motor Carriage" or "Howitzer Motor Carriage". 4481: 4436: 4334: 4289: 4180: 4146: 4115: 3932: 3859: 3800: 3664: 3621: 3588: 3554: 3520: 3487: 3435: 3377: 3367: 3317: 3287: 3216: 3173: 3152: 3131: 3094: 3036: 2944: 2890: 2834: 2764: 2736: 2715: 2694: 2646: 2433: 2361: 2328: 2222: 1931: 1898: 1843: 1808: 1790: 1771: 1741: 1723: 1707: 1692: 1678: 1647: 1614: 1588: 1560: 1537: 1169: 978: 906: 873: 829: 807: 724: 5229: 5175:

generic numbers. I suggest that there so few examples that any search results are meaningless.

4561: 4302:? If someone makes mass changes to military pages its likely that someone will post about it on 3694: 3597:

Fair question, I guess. It's a complement. Read it again. Now that I've answered your question,

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that spells out "gun motor carriage" a lot, and seems to use a capitalization style like ours.

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It's not clear what you mean by archaic. The terms are still used in 21st century books (e.g.

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That relates to your badgering behavior how, exactly? Casting aspersions isn't very becoming.

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history/Military land vehicles task force/Article alerts

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Lazy nomination, with no evidence provided whatsoever. You can do better than this, Dicklyon.

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As to whether to include the mm size, maybe the hyphen, put the M40 first or last, etc., see

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Why do you need your own section for this instead of placing it in the ongoing discussion?

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sources. It's rare to see an example where the problems with that, and the reason we have

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has all three (gun, howitzer, and mortar) motor carriages lowercase throughout, including

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which is WP's generally agreed standard listing textbook of US AFVs of WWII. It's used by

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Edit add add whatever: You were talking about me, josh was just a marker. Sorry, struck.

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This is a lack of consistency (in an age when editing was too tiresome to enforce it) ...

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differ in editorial judgment is how we should interpret this, and what we should do next.

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to have them reverted. Then I can make a proper move request to move them to lowercase.

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Personal? I'm not the one citing their own userspace and claiming that it sets policy.

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to revert to lowercase and I'll do a proper RM. This isn't going to work out for you.

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as yet another guideline against doing that, in case more shortcut links are wanted).

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Among the books I cited are the secondary "pictorial records" assembled by the Army.

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Talk:All-purpose_Lightweight_Individual_Carrying_Equipment#Requested_move_24_July_2024

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closes with it.". I'm going to stand up for josh, who didn't do anything except ask

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Sure, if there's some evidence for us to peruse then I'll be happy to reconsider! —

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I did. You should consider not badgering people who don't agree with your position.

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If you want to 'blame' me for anything (what?) then you know where ANI is. This is

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please take another look, at the "hidden archive" stripe above in this RM section.

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Who do you think you are? you are not moderating or oversighting this move request

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Even the RMCD bot is confused by the malformed request to move the page to itself.

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Your evidence is selective. For example, the manual does capitalize it repeatedly:

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This is an hour on Google, I would guess somebody with a library could do better.

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while carrying out a series of maneuvering tests was actually engaged in warfare."

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while carrying out a series of maneuvering tests was actually engaged in warfare."

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p. 823: "... a gun-motor would have to be a first-rate hill-climber. If to the

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p. 823: "... a gun-motor would have to be a first-rate hill-climber. If to the

438: 4540: 4239:

a PROPERNAME, or are you you using the absence of wide use to prove a negative?

2348:, Volume 16] (Government Printing Office, 1920) lists "Service handbook of the 893:, Volume 16] (Government Printing Office, 1920) lists "Service handbook of the 502: 4666:

generically. M13-M17 "Multiple Gun Motor Carriage". M4, M21 "Mortar Carrier".

4469: 4461: 4415: 4401: 4213: 4076: 2969: 2885:

proper names, just as many reliable sources don't treat them as proper names.

2233: 563: 3921:

if milhist editors wanted to use names with "self-propelled" and such instead

2531:, Volume 3, Department of the Army, 1951, p. 370 has "in the foreground is a 1583:

No moves have been requested. The articles are already at the target names.

1076:, Volume 3, Department of the Army, 1951, p. 370 has "in the foreground is a 704:

was not discussed first, is harmful to our accuracy, and should be reverted.

4323:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Military history/Requests for project input

2421:

designed to mount either a 75-millimeter gun or a 105-millimeter Howitzer."

966:

designed to mount either a 75-millimeter gun or a 105-millimeter Howitzer."

3974:. It's the whole point of why we prioritise secondary sources over primary. 585:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the 5292: 5115:" on each, meaning to note additions (instead of a bunch of "Edit add:"s. 3776: 3308: 3234: 2907:

RS of comparable standing. Not by your method of counting Google hits to

2876: 2341:

By the 1920s, the concept has been developed a bit by the US and France:

2214: 1781: 1662: 886:

By the 1920s, the concept has been developed a bit by the US and France:

824:

Knowledge (XXG) treated it as a proper name even though sources didn't.

3270:: In the case of the M21 mortar, the far more common term in books is 1687:

In all fairness, those do say that proper names should be capitalized.

1463: 5216:

TM9-710 BASIC HALF-TRACK VEHICLES (WHITE, AUTOCAR, AND DIAMOND T)(sic)

5098:

is RS? Why? It has a preview, showing actual pages. Do you deny that

4602: 3989:

makes the point of very obviously not capitalising such terms when he

3923:? I'm just trying to fix the over-capitalization, which I've shown is 2611:

with several other, T49 gun motor carriage and T67 gun motor carriage.

2486:(1940) has on p. 374: "... the 3-inch gun M7 and mount M5, mounted on 1156:

with several other, T49 gun motor carriage and T67 gun motor carriage.

1031:(1940) has on p. 374: "... the 3-inch gun M7 and mount M5, mounted on 4809:

Yes, there are books and web pages that treat these as proper names.

4508:

First, right from the start, the words "gun motor carriage" are used

2829:, we do not use title case for article titles; we use sentence case. 2677:

155-mm Gun Motor Carriage M40 and 8-inch Howitzer Motor Carriage M43

2507:

155-mm Gun Motor Carriage M40 and 8-inch Howitzer Motor Carriage M43

2282:

Copy of evidence collected during the previous malformed RM attempt

1052:

155-mm Gun Motor Carriage M40 and 8-inch Howitzer Motor Carriage M43

3718:

From 1-8. GENERAL DESCRIPTION south they go to descriptions, "M809

3579:

was just a typo. I checked, found I was wrong, and put to back to

1462:

when applied only to the early WWII British doctrine. It's used in

265: 221: 2993:

Talk:M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle#Requested move 27 August 2024

2523:

1951, HMCs M7 and M8 and GMCs M18 and M10 in pictures and words:

2307:

Proceedings – Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)

1068:

1951, HMCs M7 and M8 and GMCs M18 and M10 in pictures and words:

852:

Proceedings – Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)

5291:

reliable source. It does not go to the source-based criteria of

3412:

names which are no longer in use? They M109 is "Self-Propelled"

2455:(United States. General Accounting Office 1935) p.996: "... one 1000:(United States. General Accounting Office 1935) p.996: "... one 2402:

and "It is interesting to note that in France during the war a

1970: 1569:

Please focus on the move request, not attacking other editors.

947:

and "It is interesting to note that in France during the war a

671:

WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force

1947: 184: 15: 5502:

Start-Class military science, technology, and theory articles

3126:. I'll copy it into a collapsed section here, momentarily. 5507:

Military science, technology, and theory task force articles

4167:

Also I'll just note that your !vote comes a few hours after

3408:

Edit add: I don't see where anybody has said that these are

1959:

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be

1599:

Knowledge (XXG):Requested moves#Possibly incomplete requests

659: 501: 485: 469: 453: 437: 421: 306: 5325:

propernames, just set an impossibly high standard of proof.

5321:

and fringe grammar ideas but have not shown that these are

2556:, War Department, 1952 has: "... the T98, a self-propelled 2352:, model of 1920, Apr. 1921. ... ( War Dept. doc . 1074. )" 1101:, War Department, 1952 has: "... the T98, a self-propelled 897:, model of 1920, Apr. 1921. ... ( War Dept. doc . 1074. )" 2987:

per nom and the many prior very-similar RMs referenced at

2825:

is very clear on why these should be lowercased. And per

1601:, and I notice that you didn't follow the instructions at 3852:

if it was found to be consistently capitalized in sources

3734:

proper names is entirely ORIGINAL RESEARCH and should be

2451:

Decisions of the Comptroller General of the United States

996:

Decisions of the Comptroller General of the United States

5210:

Of maybe you didn't look hard enough. I found a couple:

2623:

List of mortar carriers#World War II era mortar carriers

5151: 4856:

I think I have just pinged everybody who has posted at

4490:

I think I have just pinged everybody who has posted at

4281: 4172: 4168: 4107: 3711:

name is OR, your interpretation of the literal source.

2680:, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1947, p. 9 has "The 2510:, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1947, p. 9 has "The 2413:

Transactions of the American Society for Steel Treating

2374:

Handbook of Artillery: Including Mobile, Antiaircraft,

2198: 2187: 2176: 2165: 2154: 2143: 2132: 2121: 2110: 2099: 2088: 2077: 2066: 2055: 2039: 2035: 2031: 1753:. Other indexes of technical manuals do capitalize it: 1236: 1055:, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1947, p. 9 has "The 958:

Transactions of the American Society for Steel Treating

919:

Handbook of Artillery: Including Mobile, Antiaircraft,

693: 5389:

modelers but the author and publisher look good to me.

4621:

There are also a million scale model and gamer sites.

2446:

By 1935, adding in "mortar motor carriage" in the US:

991:

By 1935, adding in "mortar motor carriage" in the US:

160: 3809:

Oh, dick lyon, I'm having problems understanding you.

2528:

United States Army in World War II.: Pictorial record

2305:

As early as 1902, the concept appears in Britain, in

1073:

United States Army in World War II.: Pictorial record

850:

As early as 1902, the concept appears in Britain, in

5562:

Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance

5522:

Start-Class North American military history articles

5231:

TM9-731E1 CARRIAGE, MOTOR, 105-MM HOWITZER, M7 (sic)

4321:

for notifying the project, which would have been at

4280:

I see you're also active at the project where where

4043:

RS, so this case is the same as every other case of

3775:Just asserting "it's a proper name" is not useful. 2397:

guns and howitzers on carriages equipped with motors

1458:

in the US sense but not for other nations, likewise

942:

guns and howitzers on carriages equipped with motors

319:

This article has been checked against the following

5532:

Start-Class United States military history articles

5527:

North American military history task force articles

3124:#Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" 2819:#Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" 2255:#Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" 1780:My point is only to show that it's not meeting the 1529:#Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" 1424:was closed down and taken to ANI for 'disruption'. 447:

Military science, technology, and theory task force

404: 318: 174: 5537:United States military history task force articles 4711:it looks bad faith. Say whatever you want. Sorry. 2903:sources; Chamberlain & Ellis, Ogorkiewicz, or 2464:By 1939 and 1940, the M10 and M40 were mentioned: 1009:By 1939 and 1940, the M10 and M40 were mentioned: 842:Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage" 5272:Well, that's what the Army thought in the 1940s. 5073:that you just dismiss out of hand. With no proof. 4651:standard catalog of U.S. MILITARY VEHICLES (ha?!) 4304:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Military history 1454:and you might note that he carefully capitalises 783:lists it as "M40, 155 mm. gun, motor carriage". 736:-- move was undiscussed, and does not align with 5332:standard catalog of U.S. MILITARY VEHICLES (sic) 5092:standard catalog of U.S. MILITARY VEHICLES (sic) 3812:dick lyon, everything you quote about using the 2600:The "pictorial records" assembled by the Army. 1145:The "pictorial records" assembled by the Army. 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 4368:Sources for Gun Motor Carriage as a proper name 3225:Hi, I've had another look and on balance I'm a 2674:The 1947 official manual for the M40 and M43: 775:uses lowercase even in the doc title listing. 771:has "the gun motor carriage, M40, which ...". 5396:Artillery An Illustrated History of Its Impact 5100:Artillery An Illustrated History of Its Impact 4782:Artillery An Illustrated History of Its Impact 1853:Malformed unclear request and procedural close 5246:TM9-731G 3-INCH GUN MOTOR CARRIAGE M10A1(sic) 4526:. Schiffer Military History. pp. 35, 67, 81. 8: 2710:can you say what manuals you're looking at? 291:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history 5492:Start-Class military land vehicles articles 5260:TM9-748 90-MM GUN MOTOR CARRIAGE M36B1(sic) 3075:request, and perhaps we can reconsider. — 188: 5497:Military land vehicles task force articles 5002:There are many reasons why capitalisation 4697:NO AMAZON LINK WITHOUT A PAGE NUMBER IS RS 2660:Oppose - proper vehicle names per manuals 2502:1947 official manual for the M40 and M43: 2287:The following discussion has been closed. 2278: 1912:There is a move discussion in progress on 1733: 1670: 1436:British And American Tanks Of World War II 1248:. A batch of them, all of the basic form ' 1186:The following is a closed discussion of a 1047:1947 official manual for the M40 and M43: 816:And it is not irrelevant that the capping 525: 479:North American military history task force 401: 315: 216: 4262:we should use the name commonly given in 2481:War Department Technical Manual TM 9-753 2426:unusual at the time, and before and since 2404:motor carriage mounting a 220-mm howitzer 1434:Chamberlain, Peter; Ellis, Chris (1981). 1252:'. Apologies if I've missed any of them. 1026:War Department Technical Manual TM 9-753 971:unusual at the time, and before and since 949:motor carriage mounting a 220-mm howitzer 626:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 495:United States military history task force 4352:. These are being used as proper names. 4325:; they're also automatically alerted to 4045:specialists in a topic over-capitalizing 2939:pointing those out. Make up your mind. 2535:, while down the slope of the hill is a 2319:some such arrangement was attached ..." 1080:, while down the slope of the hill is a 864:some such arrangement was attached ..." 271:This article is within the scope of the 5122:three RS (two are same author, though). 4241:Sorry BLUDGEONING please don't answer. 3874:Back to interrupted tangential thread: 2579:and special purpose vehicles, 1939–1945 1124:and special purpose vehicles, 1939–1945 527: 218: 5029: 4981: 4934: 4557:Check out the references on this one. 4003:The question remains of what is to be 3941: 3190:comment. Cheers, and happy weekend — 2859:because there are robust RS that do so 2390:105-millimeter howitzer motor carriage 935:105-millimeter howitzer motor carriage 281:. To use this banner, please see the 5557:Low-importance United States articles 5487:Start-Class military history articles 5129:time if not a deliberate distraction. 4935:a million scale model and gamer sites 3726:rucks. Everything you say is correct 779:always uses lowercase in sentences. 294:Template:WikiProject Military history 7: 3583:. Are you criticizing me for that? 2915:as policy, are made quite so clear. 1855:, no moves needed per Dicklyon. —⁠ ⁠ 1205:The result of the move request was: 579:This article is within the scope of 4603:"U.S. M40 155mm Gun Motor Carriage" 3786:are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG). 2395:and explains "The idea of mounting 1828:Oppose and request procedural close 940:and explains "The idea of mounting 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 5567:WikiProject United States articles 5552:Start-Class United States articles 5375:American Armored Fighting Vehicles 5104:American Armored Fighting Vehicles 4733:American Armored Fighting Vehicles 4545:American Fighting Vehicle Database 4298:What point are you trying to make 3401:US Department of the Army TM9-1747 2854:unless the title is a proper name. 2803:rather than in the generic sense. 2801:when they are being used as titles 2686:8-inch howitzer motor carriage M43 2533:105-mm. howitzer motor carriage M7 2516:8-inch howitzer motor carriage M43 1832:M37 105 mm howitzer motor carriage 1078:105-mm. howitzer motor carriage M7 1061:8-inch howitzer motor carriage M43 629:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 5542:Start-Class World War II articles 2851:says. NCCAPS says not to do this 2592:Gun carriage#Modern gun carriages 2541:75-mm. howitzer motor carriage M8 1974:will list this discussion on the 1137:Gun carriage#Modern gun carriages 1086:75-mm. howitzer motor carriage M8 431:Military land vehicles task force 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 5547:World War II task force articles 2560:, and the T99, a self-propelled 2419:75-millimeter gun motor carriage 2383:Gun and howitzer motor carriages 1951: 1870:The discussion above is closed. 1632:"90-mm Gun Motor Carriage M36B1" 1105:, and the T99, a self-propelled 964:75-millimeter gun motor carriage 928:Gun and howitzer motor carriages 566: 556: 529: 378: 367: 356: 345: 334: 264: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 4982:the phrase is sometimes used as 4171:at the project, and after your 4047:things to "big-note" them (cf. 3927:, contrary to your assertions. 2625:but don't otherwise cover) and 2417:(July–Dec 1926) says "... the 2111:M19 multiple gun motor carriage 2106:M19 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 2100:M16 multiple gun motor carriage 2095:M16 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 2089:M13 multiple gun motor carriage 2084:M13 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 1324:M19 multiple gun motor carriage 1320:M19 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 1315:M16 multiple gun motor carriage 1311:M16 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 1306:M13 multiple gun motor carriage 1302:M13 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage 962:(July–Dec 1926) says "... the 773:This index of technical manuals 646:This article has been rated as 5468:23:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5453:23:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5431:16:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5305:10:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5282:10:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 5199:15:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5185:00:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 5166:18:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 5143:11:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 5050:12:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4994:09:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4973:05:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4771:check the index to Chapter VI. 4721:01:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 4607:The Historical Marker Database 4541:"155mm Gun Motor Carriage M40" 4362:01:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 4339:15:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 4316:07:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 4294:00:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 4276:11:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 4251:02:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 4222:01:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 4197:00:45, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 4185:00:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 4163:20:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC) 4151:04:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 4137:13:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 4129:MOS overreach that ignores RS. 3414:TM-9-2350-311-10 Section 1-1b. 2459:for experimental purposes ..." 2225:) 22:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 1758:. As do some US Army articles 1004:for experimental purposes ..." 1: 5512:Start-Class weaponry articles 5357:. Schiffer Military History. 4957: 4947:22:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4927:15:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4912:14:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4896:03:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4870:03:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4858:Requested move 27 August 2024 4847:15:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC) 4833:01:27, 8 September 2024 (UTC) 4819:20:50, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 4804:22:23, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 4676:20:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC) 4640:20:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 4504:09:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 4492:Requested move 27 August 2024 4372:Edit add: please do not post 4282:Andy's non-neutral canvassing 4173:back-and-forth with him there 4169:Andy's non-neutral canvassing 4120:04:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC) 4102:22:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 4085:10:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 4068:05:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 4052: 4018:22:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3937:23:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3915:21:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3864:14:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3845:11:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3805:02:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3748:16:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3669:14:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3654:13:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3626:19:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3611:15:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3593:14:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 3559:05:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3540:00:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 3525:23:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3507:20:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3492:19:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3477:12:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3462:09:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3440:05:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC) 3425:23:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 3386:01:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 3372:00:03, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 3334:"not our style". Clearly so. 3276:see n-grams for mortar things 3251:17:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 3221:05:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 2682:155-mm gun motor carriage M40 2558:105mm howitzer motor carriage 2548:1952, T-numbered HMC and GMC 2537:76-mm. gun motor carriage M18 2512:155-mm gun motor carriage M40 2483:3-INCH GUN MOTOR CARRIAGE M10 2242:10:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 1942:Requested move 27 August 2024 1893:for my moves to be reverted. 1669:might be in order. Also see 1597:Actually, I see it listed at 1103:105mm howitzer motor carriage 1093:1952, T-numbered HMC and GMC 1082:76-mm. gun motor carriage M18 1057:155-mm gun motor carriage M40 1028:3-INCH GUN MOTOR CARRIAGE M10 818:took off in the last 10 years 700:to an invented and incorrect 696:from the correct and sourced 668:This article is supported by 42:Put new text under old text. 5517:Weaponry task force articles 3736:reverted as soon as possible 3280:books with M21 mortar things 2989:User:Dicklyon/MIL precedents 2267:User:Dicklyon/MIL precedents 1986:). Please base arguments on 1513:is correct and appropriate. 1179:Requested move 2 August 2024 274:Military history WikiProject 4837:OK, I see you struck that. 4583:"T12/M3 Gun Motor Carriage" 3779:talks about how we decide: 3357:23:31, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 3326:23:25, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 3292:21:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3200:17:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 3178:17:01, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 3157:21:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3136:15:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3113:15:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3099:14:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3085:10:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3055:23:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 3041:21:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3027:10:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 3005:06:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2980:03:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2949:15:04, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2925:10:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2895:02:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2871:00:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2839:00:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2813:23:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 2769:21:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 2755:21:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 2741:16:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC) 2720:15:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2699:00:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2670:23:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 2199:T92 howitzer motor carriage 2194:T92 Howitzer Motor Carriage 2177:T30 howitzer motor carriage 2172:T30 Howitzer Motor Carriage 2166:T19 howitzer motor carriage 2161:T19 Howitzer Motor Carriage 2155:T18 howitzer motor carriage 2150:T18 Howitzer Motor Carriage 2144:M43 howitzer motor carriage 2139:M43 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1914:Talk:M40 gun motor carriage 1908:Move discussion in progress 1836:M41 howitzer motor carriage 1527:If you look at the section 1484:What this comes down to is 1387:T92 howitzer motor carriage 1383:T92 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1378:T30 howitzer motor carriage 1374:T30 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1369:T19 howitzer motor carriage 1365:T19 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1360:T18 howitzer motor carriage 1356:T18 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1351:M43 howitzer motor carriage 1347:M43 Howitzer Motor Carriage 765:official maintenance manual 5588: 5417:Did you blow off a Jane's? 5266:. US War Department. 1945. 5252:. US War Department. 1943. 5237:. US War Department. 1944. 5222:. US War Department. 1944. 3985:like this). In particular 3919:Did you miss where I said 2651:03:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 2438:16:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 2366:16:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 2350:155-mm. gun motor carriage 2333:16:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 2067:Howitzer motor carriage M8 2062:Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 1936:03:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1921:09:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1903:14:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC) 1865:01:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC) 1848:01:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC) 1813:04:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1795:04:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1776:04:11, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1746:22:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1728:22:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1712:22:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1697:22:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1683:22:15, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1652:22:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1619:02:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1593:22:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1579:21:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1565:21:03, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1542:03:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 1523:09:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1502:09:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC) 1472:Armoured Personnel Carrier 1342:Howitzer motor carriage M8 1338:Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 1333:M7 howitzer motor carriage 1329:M7 Howitzer Motor Carriage 1226:02:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC) 1174:03:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 983:16:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 911:16:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 895:155-mm. gun motor carriage 878:16:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) 652:project's importance scale 339:Referencing and citation: 5414:TDs were down there, too. 5372:Bradford, George (2007). 4730:Bradford, George (2007). 2539:( bottom )". p. 245 has " 2122:M21 mortar motor carriage 2117:M21 Mortar Motor Carriage 1414:M21 mortar motor carriage 1410:M21 Mortar Motor Carriage 1084:( bottom )". p. 245 has " 834:05:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC) 812:05:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC) 759:17:51, 24 July 2024 (UTC) 729:15:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC) 714:07:42, 24 July 2024 (UTC) 667: 645: 582:WikiProject United States 551: 509: 493: 477: 461: 445: 429: 400: 297:military history articles 259: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 4562:"M12 Gun Motor Carriage" 3893:styleguide. No. That is 3282:. Let's go with that? 2627:M2 mortar motor carriage 2619:M4 mortar motor carriage 2562:155mm gun motor carriage 2290:Please do not modify it. 1872:Please do not modify it. 1466:recognition handbooks. 1193:Please do not modify it. 1107:155mm gun motor carriage 587:United States of America 5399:. ABC-CLIO. pp. 297–298 5287:And the army is not an 5096:Weapons of World War II 4785:. ABC-CLIO. pp. 297–298 4758:Weapons of World War II 3268:Alt to consider for M21 2641:Responses are welcome. 1164:Responses are welcome. 511:World War II task force 405:Associated task forces: 350:Coverage and accuracy: 5443:by n-gram statistics. 5354:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 5088:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 4523:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 3239:M40 gun motor carriage 3231:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 2615:This 2022 history book 2488:gun motor carriage M10 2475:M40 gun motor carriage 2188:T48 gun motor carriage 2183:T48 Gun Motor Carriage 2078:M12 gun motor carriage 2073:M12 Gun Motor Carriage 2056:M40 gun motor carriage 2051:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 1990:, and keep discussion 1508:Oppose and revert move 1405:M40 gun motor carriage 1401:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 1396:M40 gun motor carriage 1392:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 1297:T48 gun motor carriage 1293:T48 Gun Motor Carriage 1288:M40 gun motor carriage 1284:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 1279:M36 gun motor carriage 1275:M36 Gun Motor Carriage 1270:M12 gun motor carriage 1266:M12 Gun Motor Carriage 1246:M40 gun motor carriage 1242:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 1237:M40_gun_motor_carriage 1232:M40 gun motor carriage 1033:gun motor carriage M10 1020:M40 gun motor carriage 702:M40 gun motor carriage 698:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 664: 632:United States articles 506: 490: 474: 458: 442: 426: 383:Supporting materials: 311: 197:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 25:M40 Gun Motor Carriage 5393:Kinard, Jeff (2007). 5351:Doyle, David (2017). 5329:Doyle, David (2003). 4779:Kinard, Jeff (2007). 4755:Barnes, G.M. (2014). 4648:Doyle, David (2003). 4520:Doyle, David (2017). 3575:I originally thought 2931:Here's another volume 2621:(which we mention at 2602:Here's another volume 2457:mortar motor carriage 2378:, and Trench Matériel 2133:M3 gun motor carriage 2128:M3 Gun Motor Carriage 1261:M3 gun motor carriage 1257:M3 Gun Motor Carriage 1147:Here's another volume 1002:mortar motor carriage 923:, and Trench Matériel 689:Undiscussed page move 663: 505: 489: 473: 457: 441: 425: 310: 201:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 5240:Motor Carriage M7". 4699:. Cinderella157 was 3943:not supported by RSs 3925:not supported by RSs 3339:So you'd agree that 2572:The 1969 book title 2497:per book usage stats 2019:requested move/dated 2007:subst:requested move 1988:article title policy 1984:closing instructions 1978:current discussions 1117:The 1969 book title 1042:per book usage stats 574:United States portal 105:No original research 4884:Template:Ping#Usage 4376:this comment, post 3998:does not reverse it 3013:We work by sources 2861:. Which there are. 2577:gun motor carriages 1122:gun motor carriages 600:Articles Requested! 463:Weaponry task force 372:Grammar and style: 325:for B-class status: 4746:Check the preview. 4516:as a proper name. 4110:puzzling; but OK. 3547:Here's a 2023 book 3272:M21 mortar carrier 2991:(plus the ongoing 2317:gun-motor carriage 1889:), or just ask at 1511:Gun Motor Carriage 1429:Gun Motor Carriage 1250:Gun Motor Carriage 862:gun-motor carriage 769:This Aberdeen book 665: 507: 491: 475: 459: 443: 427: 312: 279:list of open tasks 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 5341:978-0-87349-508-0 5086:Do you deny that 5038:WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT 4660:978-0-87349-508-0 3448:thing borders on 2657: 2656: 2631:M2 half-track car 2553:Armed Forces Talk 2388:p. 387 mentions " 2244: 2047: 2046: 2042: 2025: 1961:renamed and moved 1734:the section above 1671:the section above 1549:Malformed request 1449: 1216: 1213:non-admin closure 1098:Armed Forces Talk 933:p. 387 mentions " 757: 734:Support reverting 686: 685: 682: 681: 678: 677: 524: 523: 520: 519: 516: 515: 396: 395: 363:criterion not met 352:criterion not met 341:criterion not met 283:full instructions 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 5579: 5408: 5406: 5404: 5387: 5385: 5383: 5367: 5345: 5267: 5265: 5253: 5251: 5238: 5236: 5223: 5221: 4971: 4881: 4794: 4792: 4790: 4770: 4768: 4766: 4745: 4743: 4741: 4694: 4664: 4618: 4616: 4614: 4598: 4596: 4594: 4577: 4575: 4573: 4566:Military Factory 4556: 4554: 4552: 4536: 4489: 4447: 4440: 4433: 4426: 4419: 4412: 4405: 4398: 4391: 4066: 3972:we don't do this 3958:Where we should 3210: 3188: 3167: 3146: 2977: 2936:here's a history 2730: 2709: 2609:here's a history 2392:, model of 1920" 2292: 2279: 2226: 2201: 2190: 2179: 2168: 2157: 2146: 2135: 2124: 2113: 2102: 2091: 2080: 2069: 2058: 2027: 2022: 2010: 2001: 1973: 1955: 1954: 1948: 1884: 1448: 1432: 1239: 1210: 1207:Procedural close 1195: 1154:here's a history 1142:More histories: 937:, model of 1920" 756: 754: 753: 750: 744: 634: 633: 630: 627: 624: 576: 571: 570: 569: 560: 553: 552: 547: 544: 542:Military history 533: 526: 412: 402: 386: 382: 381: 375: 371: 370: 364: 360: 359: 353: 349: 348: 342: 338: 337: 316: 299: 298: 295: 292: 289: 288:Military history 268: 261: 260: 255: 228:Military history 224: 217: 200: 194: 193: 185: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 5587: 5586: 5582: 5581: 5580: 5578: 5577: 5576: 5572:Requested moves 5477: 5476: 5402: 5400: 5392: 5381: 5379: 5371: 5364: 5350: 5342: 5328: 5263: 5257: 5249: 5243: 5234: 5228: 5219: 5213: 5034:I don't like it 4904:Hey man im josh 4875: 4788: 4786: 4778: 4764: 4762: 4754: 4739: 4737: 4729: 4680: 4661: 4647: 4612: 4610: 4601: 4592: 4590: 4581: 4571: 4569: 4560: 4550: 4548: 4539: 4533: 4519: 4451: 4441: 4434: 4427: 4420: 4413: 4406: 4399: 4392: 4385: 4370: 4073:Re-list comment 3728:from that point 3204: 3182: 3161: 3140: 2975: 2724: 2703: 2288: 2197: 2186: 2175: 2164: 2153: 2142: 2131: 2120: 2109: 2098: 2087: 2076: 2065: 2054: 2043: 2016: 2004: 1976:requested moves 1969: 1952: 1944: 1910: 1878: 1876: 1875: 1785:unnecessarily. 1445: 1433: 1235: 1191: 1181: 844: 751: 748: 747: 742: 691: 631: 628: 625: 622: 621: 620: 606:Become a Member 572: 567: 565: 545: 539: 410: 384: 379: 373: 368: 362: 357: 351: 346: 340: 335: 296: 293: 290: 287: 286: 230: 198: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 5585: 5583: 5575: 5574: 5569: 5564: 5559: 5554: 5549: 5544: 5539: 5534: 5529: 5524: 5519: 5514: 5509: 5504: 5499: 5494: 5489: 5479: 5478: 5475: 5474: 5473: 5472: 5471: 5470: 5455: 5440: 5418: 5415: 5390: 5369: 5363:978-0764354021 5362: 5348: 5340: 5326: 5311: 5208: 5207: 5206: 5205: 5204: 5203: 5202: 5201: 5172: 5168: 5145: 5130: 5126: 5123: 5116: 5108: 5083: 5080: 5076: 5069: 5061: 5060: 5059: 5058: 5057: 5056: 5055: 5054: 5053: 5052: 5008:MOS:SIGNIFCAPS 4976: 4975: 4954: 4949: 4931: 4930: 4929: 4900: 4899: 4898: 4852: 4851: 4850: 4849: 4821: 4703:. I've struck 4659: 4532:978-0764354021 4531: 4369: 4366: 4365: 4364: 4347: 4346: 4345: 4344: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4256: 4255: 4254: 4253: 4225: 4224: 4207: 4206: 4205: 4204: 4203: 4202: 4201: 4200: 4199: 4124: 4123: 4122: 4087: 4070: 4042: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 4021: 4020: 4001: 3994: 3975: 3963: 3951: 3947: 3946: 3901: 3900: 3873: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3866: 3832: 3829: 3821: 3810: 3690: 3689: 3688: 3687: 3686: 3685: 3684: 3683: 3682: 3681: 3680: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3675: 3674: 3673: 3672: 3671: 3638: 3634: 3633: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3629: 3628: 3569: 3565: 3464: 3445: 3405: 3404: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3374: 3336: 3335: 3329: 3328: 3294: 3265: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3255: 3254: 3253: 3159: 3138: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3059: 3058: 3057: 3008: 3007: 2982: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2958: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2793: 2784: 2783: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2722: 2701: 2655: 2654: 2639: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2612: 2606: 2595: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2567: 2566: 2565: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2500: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2478: 2462: 2461: 2460: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2441: 2440: 2409: 2408: 2407: 2400: 2393: 2385:" in the TOC. 2376:Motor Carriage 2370: 2369: 2368: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2313: 2302: 2301: 2294: 2293: 2284: 2283: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2264: 2258: 2203: 2202: 2191: 2180: 2169: 2158: 2147: 2136: 2125: 2114: 2103: 2092: 2081: 2070: 2059: 2045: 2044: 2026: 2000: 1966: 1965: 1956: 1943: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1909: 1906: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1850: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1797: 1716: 1715: 1714: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1595: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1479:a Google ngram 1443: 1417: 1416: 1407: 1398: 1389: 1380: 1371: 1362: 1353: 1344: 1335: 1326: 1317: 1308: 1299: 1290: 1281: 1272: 1263: 1229: 1203: 1202: 1188:requested move 1182: 1180: 1177: 1162: 1161: 1160: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1151: 1140: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1066: 1065: 1064: 1045: 1038: 1037: 1036: 1023: 1007: 1006: 1005: 989: 988: 987: 986: 985: 954: 953: 952: 945: 938: 930:" in the TOC. 921:Motor Carriage 915: 914: 913: 884: 883: 882: 881: 880: 858: 843: 840: 839: 838: 837: 836: 814: 800: 796: 731: 694:This page move 690: 687: 684: 683: 680: 679: 676: 675: 666: 656: 655: 648:Low-importance 644: 638: 637: 635: 619: 618: 613: 608: 603: 596: 594:Template Usage 590: 578: 577: 561: 549: 548: 546:Low‑importance 534: 522: 521: 518: 517: 514: 513: 508: 498: 497: 492: 482: 481: 476: 466: 465: 460: 450: 449: 444: 434: 433: 428: 418: 417: 415: 413: 407: 406: 398: 397: 394: 393: 391: 389: 388: 387: 376: 365: 354: 343: 329: 328: 326: 313: 303: 302: 300: 269: 257: 256: 225: 213: 212: 206: 195: 181: 180: 118: 117: 113: 112: 107: 102: 93: 92: 90: 89: 82: 77: 68: 62: 60: 59: 48: 39: 38: 35: 34: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5584: 5573: 5570: 5568: 5565: 5563: 5560: 5558: 5555: 5553: 5550: 5548: 5545: 5543: 5540: 5538: 5535: 5533: 5530: 5528: 5525: 5523: 5520: 5518: 5515: 5513: 5510: 5508: 5505: 5503: 5500: 5498: 5495: 5493: 5490: 5488: 5485: 5484: 5482: 5469: 5465: 5461: 5456: 5454: 5450: 5446: 5441: 5439: 5434: 5433: 5432: 5428: 5424: 5419: 5416: 5412: 5398: 5397: 5391: 5377: 5376: 5370: 5365: 5360: 5356: 5355: 5349: 5343: 5338: 5334: 5333: 5327: 5324: 5320: 5316: 5315:your opinions 5312: 5308: 5307: 5306: 5302: 5298: 5297:Cinderella157 5294: 5290: 5286: 5285: 5284: 5283: 5279: 5275: 5270: 5262: 5261: 5255: 5248: 5247: 5241: 5233: 5232: 5226: 5218: 5217: 5211: 5200: 5196: 5192: 5188: 5187: 5186: 5182: 5178: 5173: 5169: 5167: 5163: 5159: 5155: 5153: 5146: 5144: 5140: 5136: 5131: 5127: 5124: 5121: 5117: 5114: 5109: 5107: 5105: 5101: 5097: 5093: 5089: 5084: 5081: 5077: 5074: 5070: 5067: 5066: 5065: 5064: 5063: 5062: 5051: 5047: 5043: 5042:Cinderella157 5039: 5035: 5031: 5027: 5024: 5020: 5017: 5013: 5009: 5005: 5001: 5000: 4999: 4998: 4997: 4996: 4995: 4991: 4987: 4983: 4980: 4979: 4978: 4977: 4974: 4969: 4966: 4963: 4962: 4952: 4950: 4948: 4944: 4940: 4939:Cinderella157 4936: 4932: 4928: 4924: 4920: 4915: 4914: 4913: 4909: 4905: 4901: 4897: 4893: 4889: 4885: 4879: 4874: 4873: 4872: 4871: 4867: 4863: 4859: 4854: 4853: 4848: 4844: 4840: 4836: 4835: 4834: 4830: 4826: 4822: 4820: 4816: 4812: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4801: 4797: 4784: 4783: 4777: 4773: 4772: 4760: 4759: 4753: 4748: 4747: 4735: 4734: 4728: 4723: 4722: 4718: 4714: 4710: 4706: 4702: 4698: 4692: 4688: 4687:Cinderella157 4684: 4678: 4677: 4673: 4669: 4662: 4657: 4653: 4652: 4646: 4642: 4641: 4637: 4633: 4628: 4627: 4622: 4619: 4608: 4604: 4599: 4588: 4584: 4579: 4567: 4563: 4558: 4547:. 21 Jan 2024 4546: 4542: 4537: 4534: 4529: 4525: 4524: 4517: 4515: 4511: 4506: 4505: 4501: 4497: 4493: 4487: 4483: 4482:Cinderella157 4479: 4475: 4471: 4467: 4463: 4459: 4455: 4449: 4448: 4445: 4438: 4437:Cinderella157 4431: 4424: 4417: 4410: 4403: 4396: 4389: 4381: 4379: 4375: 4367: 4363: 4359: 4355: 4351: 4348: 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3808: 3807: 3806: 3802: 3798: 3794: 3793: 3787: 3785: 3778: 3774: 3773: 3767: 3763: 3762: 3757: 3752: 3751: 3750: 3749: 3745: 3741: 3737: 3731: 3729: 3725: 3721: 3716: 3712: 3708: 3706: 3701: 3698: 3696: 3670: 3666: 3662: 3657: 3656: 3655: 3651: 3647: 3643: 3639: 3635: 3627: 3623: 3619: 3614: 3613: 3612: 3608: 3604: 3600: 3599:Do you accept 3596: 3595: 3594: 3590: 3586: 3582: 3578: 3574: 3573: 3570: 3566: 3562: 3561: 3560: 3556: 3552: 3548: 3543: 3542: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3528: 3527: 3526: 3522: 3518: 3514: 3510: 3509: 3508: 3504: 3500: 3495: 3494: 3493: 3489: 3485: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3474: 3470: 3465: 3463: 3459: 3455: 3451: 3446: 3443: 3442: 3441: 3437: 3433: 3428: 3427: 3426: 3422: 3418: 3415: 3411: 3407: 3406: 3402: 3398: 3395: 3394: 3387: 3383: 3379: 3378:Cinderella157 3375: 3373: 3369: 3365: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3354: 3350: 3346: 3342: 3338: 3337: 3333: 3332: 3331: 3330: 3327: 3323: 3319: 3318:Cinderella157 3314: 3310: 3306: 3302: 3298: 3295: 3293: 3289: 3285: 3281: 3277: 3273: 3269: 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