Talk:Modern schools of ninjutsu

864:

is now teaching Montgomery Style Karate under the name Western Ninjutsu as the standard martial art system for the Bujinkan. Dr. Hatsumi is teaching the nine traditional components of the Bujinkan to nine Japanese masters of Western Ninjutsu so that the ninja arts can be independantly developed. The Chinese goverment has introduced Montgomery Style Karate to its citizens, and 75% of the population currently practices for two hours a day (as of June, 2010). Montgomery Style Karate has ninety-nine fighting sequences that kill in six steps, so government agents can usually kill America's enemies in five seconds with ten moves or less if some of the specific techniques are dodged or blocked by the enemy. Montgomery Style Karate achieves results in one year with a student that otherwise would take forty years of conventional karate training. The training breakthrough comes through training the concepts with documents, and students can become karate experts just by studying the documents alone. Karate experts in conventional styles have been training for fifteen to twenty years. Naturally, training with a qualified instructor on kinesthetic exercises along with reading the conceptual essays is best. People who are interested in working for the Central Intelligence Agency are encouraged to contact the CIA and ask about what kinds of martial arts backgrounds are favorable for retraining in Montgomery Style Karate. <Note to Knowledge Editors: you can verify all of this information with the Central Intelligence Agency. Reference this note on June 14th and the code name Mr. "A". For security, I am discouraged from revealing my legal name, but my code name for the CIA should be sufficient.: -->

1432:

people are not only similar, much more material was provided to justify Genbukan. It could be argued that most books justifiying what Aikido is are aikido books, thus not independent from aikido. Now: here all dojo's somehow teaching Genbukan, along other arts, or that have studied Genbukan or Bujinkan or anything related to Ninpo are being treated as being "primary" I believe this is plain wrong. A martial artist that has a dojo and has trained Judo up to his 3rd or 4th Dan and Jujitsu up to his 3rd and 4th Dan and relates his experiences training with Shoto Tanemura is somehow Shoto Tanemura himself? Hayes is somehow Genbukan because he trained under Tanemura in Bujinkan? So anybody that read about String Theory is invalidated about writting about it? So any secondary source automaticaly transforms itself into a primary source but only in modern Ninpo related stuff? Because it has been argued that, since Hayes trained in Bujinkan he can't be a secondary source for Genbukan. But Hayes is not related to Genbukan nor Hatsumi, as per example... I'm sorry but I do see a bias in this AfD against modern Ninpo/Ninjustu in relation to other content and specially other marital arts content and I do think it has to do with people thinking that other people are claiming that they are "true ninja's" which this is not true: anymore that a modern judoka does not think he is a "true samurai". And I do train in Genbukan and know what I am talking about and nobody over there thinks himself as a "ninja" (at least nobody in his right mind). Cheers! --

1390:

page while the IP user (or users) were learning about wiki and prividing more info and finding out about the Wiki and providing more and more info, at first stuff that migh have been questionable, then encyclopedias and all: I will not do the job of a group of people just because Stvfetterly commands me to. People willing to edit were compelled not to because they were blocked from doing so because of personal believe: "businesses created out of myth" of some wiki editors. As I stated about I myself might do the job, if I find the time (I have a family, a job, and multiple occupations) and am not willing to loose my time because some people are jealous of Tanemura Shoto's achievements or his business. I might even buy some of Draeger's books and one of Encyclopedias mentioned above and might share a little in the wiki, if I find the willingnes and the time. But editors should avoid the intention of blocking new IP users without trying to guide them in a more willingful manner towards better documentation without letting their POV on subjects getting on the way. I might one day do an stubb on Genbukan or on Tanemura or on another subject but I might be wary of doing them since there are people clearly (to me) trying to block the devolpment of the wiki. That is what I can gather, at is, at least, what I can gather. --

1803:

schools is presented in the lead paragraph. For example, as a non-expert, I read para 2 line 3, "claim to be descended from historical ninjutsu styles" and I am left wondering if the modern schools make statements that are untrue. (When someone says 'they claim' it suggests what is said is false in some way). Because of this I assume, whether it is true or not, that the article has been written by someone with an "axe to grind". Also, without a reference for the last line, "A number of people in the general martial arts community deny the existence of any true ninjutsu being taught today because of these concerns", I wonder, how many people, who are they, are there 2 people or 2 million? It sounds like an opinion rather than fact but not addressed as such, so as a reader, I am likely to disregard it. Anyway, it's just one thought, so I'll leave others to reach a consensus on this. Myrtle.

1322:

Consulate said "Only legends of ninja remain". Ninja were a historical fact - I do not critique these articles. I see a group of modern martial artists who created a business out of a myth. Modern ninjutsu does not have reliable sources" these personal believes, that these schools are "a business created out of a myth" without any substantiantion are what warranted the deletion of the article, not WP:N, encyclopedias, magazines and other independent sources had been provided to back up the existence and notablity of Genbukan. It was personal belief on "businesses created out of myth" what warranted the deletion of articles regarding Genbukan and Tanemura and has kept warranting them, time and time again. --

988:

ninpo or ninjutsu or taijutsu schools of ancient roots is dubious. What is in question is that it is not verifiable who the las living ninja is or was or could have been. Draeger is claiming that Fujita Seiko was the last living ninja and no other: this is a little specific. I do not know if I make clear what my objection is, it is not that some if not all historic roots claims are more legendary than historic for modern ninpo or ninjutsu or taijutsu schools: these are, probably, more legend that historic truth. But the claim itself is not verified, at least not to my knowledge. Cheers! --

1823:(check the talk page). No, no, i'm in full agreement with you. This article is biased as all hell. I was planning on improving it, but I never got to it. Instead, I did the next best thing and made a better lede to at least make some sort of appearance to readers of neutrality, even if the article wholly fails at it. While I am fairly adamant about the necessary length of the lede, feel free to propose any sort of wording changes you want for it. I will likely be in full agreement with you. 885:

crap (when in reality we're full of fireballs). Anyone can verify my story though . . . you just need to contact your local police department and ask them if they have a 'Mr. E' there. Keep repeating this code name, 'Mr. E' over and over no matter how angry the person on the other end of the phone gets, this is just how we keep our cover. They will eventually ask for your name and address, and if you give them that, then they'll send me out to your house personally. True story. :P --

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is not "being" some sort of ancient "samurai" even if some of the people involved in developping the arts go back to some of the Budo or Zen or Shinto or Buddist philosophies or try to understand from some more or less ancient sources what some ancient warriors might have done when developping the _new_ arts, or even if they try sometimes to reconstruct somewhat what might have happend in a duel of sorts for a movie or for acting or in the Dojo. --

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_this_affirmation_ be of substance based on a single comment by Draeger? Koryu.com, on the other hand, is a serious organization and, without trying to point who was the last ninja and who was not it does state clearly the concept that modern ninjutsu or ninpo schools are probably not really linked, historically, to the ninja of feudal Japan. I believe that this point is better represented by these organization such as

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verifiability of other information? When does this trying to deny verifiability and notabily and trying to erase schools that are not to this or that person liking? This looks like one of those MA tournaments or seminars or reunions where every school tries to deny the verifiability of another schools: it seems ludicrous to me to use the Encyclopedia to try to promote and demote personal affiliations and choices! --

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history, apart from a general reference to date belong in a new section called "Introduction" or "Background" in between the lead and the section titled "1970s". Perhaps this is something that could be considered as an improvement. I mentioned to Silver that I would not undo anything but I am interested in the opinions of other editors. Let me know what you think. Myrtle.

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provided. Does Stvfetterly claim that Black Belt Magazine, the other magazines quoted, the different reporters that covered the articles, and the encylopedias, _all_of_them_ were either related to Genbukan or were all so questionable that none warranted enough notability to warrant a wiki article and thus -: -->

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I'd say about half of these so called "modern ninjutsu" schools are not worthy of a mention in an encyclopedia. Some are completely without citations, some cite only single primary source, some are blatant self-promotion, and most are not more notable than your average garage band. Who wants to clean

1675:

Yes: that sums up the issue: like trying to figure out how a fight with a long sword might have been handled or could be handled is quite different from being a medieval knight. Practicing some modern form of Taijutsu is not "being" some sort of "ninja" doing modern kendo or jujitsu or aikido or judo

1389:

Still no explanation of the reasoning behind the AfD discussion or the blocking of the page. The only reason for the deletion and blocking I still see is the one I provided "businesses created out of myth" no other reason was provided in the AfD. There was an interest in blocking an IP from editing a

1261:

There is also Yim Young's article on Steve Hayes that mentions Tanemura as one of the people that trained Hayes and John Stewart article on Hayes that does the same, besides articles written by Hayes himself, but articles by independent correspondents and articles about Hayes, Tanemura and Hatsumi on

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Although large and world-wide, the modern schools might not have sufficient quality references for their own Knowledge articles (as with Genbukan). I think the extensive use of non-independent source is (in the context of this article) quite useful: it an acceptable Knowledge practice which documents

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is more of the kind of site or reference that _can_ be used as NPOV: true research institutes that deal with the historical ninja thing and deny the probability of a conexion between modern schools and ancient ones. This is more encyclopedic, at least this is why I think Dreager's asseveration is out

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btw the term is 'Repressaglia' ( ie in ancient Rome people refused to resist ). Also, I recently watched a tvmovie 'In Hell', when the actually, supposed by the title expected protagonist, looked like someone everyone else in the village/hamlet i grew ... heck: free will means, that if you decide to

1909:

Interesting that, whenever a Genbukan article is published it is destroyed "ipso facto", but it's direct competition, Bujinkan, always get's away with a large article without getting deleted or into a deletion war. Same thing goes for Hatsumi vs. Tanemura. I really don't get it. It is as if Shotokan

1818:

Ah, I can see the issue. I'm afraid i've mistakenly given the impression that I am biased against the topic. Definitely not true. In fact, I only wrote the lede as I did because I was doing my best to appease the Wikiproject Martial Arts group of editors who, as far as I can tell, all think ninjutsu

1722:

The first reason is that in many respects, the syntax I used is more concise (so more is said to summarise the content of the article in fewer words). One example of this is, where Silver Seren wrote, "also began to be developed" I might have written, "were developed". Weasel phrases such as "Claims

1080:

It is iteresting that Genbukan's article was deleted and Shoto Tanemura's article also but i.e. Bujinkan has an article and Masaaki Hatsumi has an aricle, Fran Dux has an article, Stephen K. Hayes has an article (who was also trained by Tanemura when at Bujinkan,as I read in blac belt magazine, Donn

1744:

Silver does not define the topic; his lead assumes the reader knows what a 'modern school of ninjutsu' is. And, as above, it is overly specific. The main point of this article is that the authenticity or worth of these modern schools is regarded with varying degrees of support. The specifics of the

1608:

This encyclopedia and it's entries regarding Ninpo/Ninjutsu do not seem to add up to the descriptions given on this article. Pages 162 to 171 can be read via Google Books. There are quite a bunch of references to the encyclopedia and the encyclopedia has quite an impressive list of colaborators and

1370:

If you're keeping score, that makes all reliable references that exist invalid, and all other links in the article directly related to Genbukan. I'm not (and I don't think that the average editor is) trying to say that ninjas don't exist. There's plenty of documented historical evidence of them.

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Appart from the Black Belt Article by Andy Addams "The Battle for Ninja Supremacy" of DIC85 which I do not see how is not an independent source. Andy Adams was a (is?) foreing correspondent working out of the foreign press club in Tokyo. He (Adams) also conducted an interview with Hatsumi regarding

1222:

And from what I can gather this happened: aditional sources were asked for, Black Belt Magazine articles specifically, they were provided and thus some tags removed. Articles were retagged demanding for the third party information but the person who added the info thought issues had been addressed.

1015:

Because all the material in this article is presented as 'claims', I find the use of primary or non-independent sources valid. The lead paragraph warns a reader about the difficulties of the claims. If any of the modern schools are (in the future) discovered to be a hoax, this article will still be

1007:

This article has an important function: documenting the modern ninja movement.. There are historical ryu that taught ninja skills and there are large modern schools that teach ninja skills. The historical ryu have been studied a long time: references exist to establish their Knowledge articles. The

987:

besides I do believe there should be better quotes and references that one that claims to know exactly who was "the las living ninja" an aseveration that needs real historic validation which would be difficult to assess. What is in question here is not that the real historic value of claims made by

884:

I'm part of a super secret ninja school that teaches people how to generate fireballs from all our bodily orifices to kill people. And I mean ALL our bodily orifices. It's a little uncomfortable sometimes. Unfortunately, we have no documentation either, so people keep thinking that we're full of

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The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency has originated "Western Ninjutsu." The style is also called Montgomery Style Karate. (The U.S. government certifications in martial arts are certifications to preform or teach "karate," regardless of the martial art style). Dr. Maasaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan

1429:

And it does not make "all realiable references that exist invalid" if you check above it makes all references that IP addreses were able to add invalid. When they could not add any more and Black Belt Magazines articles, other magazine articles and Encyclpedias were asked for to validate they were

1321:

I believe the issue was that some people are confusing a modern evolution of "ninpo taijutsu" "bikenjutsu" "bojutsu" and some other arts trying to emulate some traditional ways with "being a ninja" without reading about the arts or knowing about them. So, in the AfD it is stated that "The Japanese

1802:

I think this improves the lead paragraph because it orientates non expert readers to the article as well as providing a precis of its contents for others and I thank Silver for his kind consideration. I still have some concern about the way the controversy concerning the historic authority of the

1226:

That is what I, myself see. Maybe, some day, I might take the time and study the Martial Arts of the World Encyclopedia, I am even thinking of buying it along some Draeger books, and maybe I'll write a Genbukan article for the Wiki, although, if it will be erased because Tenanemura _is_ making on

1182:

if you're honestly confused why the Genbukan articles you posted were not considered notable. If you can find some independent sources that support it (grabbing a few BB articles that were mentioned in the AFD discussion and maybe some additional newspapers/books that aren't written by Genbukan

1131:

I mean: really I do not see any more notability issues or need of deletion of these pages on NPOV grounds compared with many other existing martial arts pages. I do think personal preference is being imposed over real notability or verifiability of what is claimed in subsequent revisions of this

1840:

Silver Seren, many thanks for your reply. It is very nice that we are both on "the same page". I understand now. I'm sure there is a way to present the varying points of view that will be helpful to the reader. I will read around the topic sources, as you have, and give it some thought. Myrtle.

1431:

deletion? I mean I just went to the Brazilian Jujitsu page and all reference are to brazilian jujitsu related pages, not a single independent source is provided, no secondary sources, no sources independent of the subject, etc. Don Draeger sources and the sources provided to justify, by the IP

1552:

There are some references here to Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and to Watatani Kiyoshi, but wikipedia's article on the subject indicate a lack of notability and lack of secondary sources for the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten article. So we are using unverifiable not notable information in order to question the

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The claim that Donn Draeger is a reliable independent source about Ninjutsu is not established in the article and could be questioned regarding the specific claim: Where does it say that Draeger is an expert in ninjutsu and Koryu as to be able to claim who was "the last living Ninja". How can

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The lede is supposed to be a summary of the entire article and the sections therein. Considering the size of the article, that means about 3 paragraphs, two paragraphs to summarize the 30 years of schools that are discussed in the article and one paragraph to discuss the controversy section.

1937:(ghostbladeschoolofshadowarriors.com) that only leads to a server side error page, two misused templates in the school's paragraph, and one misused AND misplaced template below the articles references. Seems like someone blatantly advertised their project here instead of writing neutral... 909:

Quest Centers are listed in the 70's. This is complex because Hayes taught in the US in the 70s, but the legal Quest Entities didn't come online until the 1990s... We could put a line for SKH in the 70's or 80's and add (see Quest Centers) and put them in the 90s? Thoughts? Anyone have

1308:

At the time: rereading the AfD and discussions and else what happened was that _all_ sources were related to Genbukan. This was modified and these sources added by an IP address and the tags removed. Tags were added againg without explanation and without verification, tags removed -:

1936:

I just read this article and couldn't help but noticed that the style of the paragraph about this "Ghostblade School of Shadow Warriors" dojo has a way more advertising tone than the rest of the article. On top of that, there is a website linked in the articles introduction/overview

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Donn Draeger's expertise on Ninja's and such things is not stablished as to use him as a source to invalidate these schools' claims or to determine who was "the last of the living ninja". How would he know? It is his POV but it is not something that can be proven. I guess

1250:

From the Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation "In 1984 Tanemura (Tsunehisa) Shoto (1947-) who was a student and trained with Kimura, Sato and Hatsumi, established the Genbukan organization and began to propagate Takamatsu's traditions..."

1658:"Yet there are no ninja today, only practitioners of some of the techniques and students of the tradition. Achievement of some rank in a school teaching ninjutsu cannot make one a ninja any more than learning techniques with a sword can qualify one as a samurai" 1571:

http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=FaTfuuIlmqcC&pg=PA171&dq=Kiyoshi+Watatani+Takamatsu.&hl=es&ei=q3PMTuLOBYausQK0vIjnDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

1740:"The first paragraph should define the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being overly specific. It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it." 1819:

is fake and have been singlehandedly writing ninjutsu related articles that way. I have no real opinion on whether it is real or not and i'm just trying to follow the sources. You should have seen the arguments I got into over my improvement of

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http://books.google.co.cr/books?id=mqTP18US1asC&pg=PA703&dq=shoto+tanemura&hl=es&ei=4j5mTpnxNcmhtweTirWHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=shoto%20tanemura&f=false

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http://books.google.com/books?id=P-Nv_LUi6KgC&pg=PA171&dq=shoto+tanemura&hl=es&ei=KEBmToD3BczAtgeKteH-CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=shoto%20tanemura&f=false

950:

Donn Draeger is a reliable, independent source. I agree that his opinion alone is not enough to establish the fact that there are no more ninja with connection to the historical ninja schools. The quote from him is valuable for two reasons:

836:

There is no citations for the Kuroi Ryu. It sounds fishy that a style passed down in secret for generations in Japan is suddenly exposed in the Netherlands. More like a fake background to sell some gym memberships. Lets see some citations!

1866:

By working to write a solid Wiki article on this subject we are doing a service to the community and to one another. Thank you all and let's keep working on this so we make the Martial Arts WikiProject shine as one of the best subgroups.

1910:

Karate had it's place with Gichin Funakoshi but God forbid Kyokushin and Mas Oyama had a page. Or Judo had a page but brazilian Jujitsu had not. It just does not make sense to me to allow a system and a reject a competing system.

1735:

Silver Seren's edit is not brief. It covers a lot of specific information such as the names of individuals, which while interesting for someone familiar with the topic, is only confusing for a non-expert. Also, the MOS says,

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The pagged was semiblocked and the IP user understood somebody wanted extra info and provided the above mentioned encyclopedias, which, for some reason, were completly ignored in the AfD discussion and article was removed.

1529:

If you see something that doesn't seem right, then change it, or let someone know so that they can modify it. As stated earlier, you can always take it to a dispute review if you disagree. Hope this helps. Regards,

2202:

be evil, you need to get a fair chance. Evil winning means that someone has to pay for it. Are you able to get to know who has to pay? Ignorance bliss. Stupidity bliss. Unblissed? Abstract meaning of evil/egoism =: -->

1940:

I'm really new to Knowledge so unless instructed what is the right course of action to take here, I'll just leave it at calling attention to the problem. Thanks to all of the contributers hopefully well-meant efforts.

1265:

One of the issues was notability, as I recall, but the ammount of dojo's around the globe or the attention or the ammount of students or the articles were all deemed not evidence of notability: that is baffling...

1405:

You seem to have some complaint about this AFD discussion (I wasn't a part of it and don't know all the details). If you think that the Genbukan article has been treated wrongly, then you should raise a

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I did not post Genbukan articles. I might have visited some of these articles at times and might have added some info but I am not the primary author of these articles. In the affore metioned discussion:

1782:

Silver Seren and I have clearly different notions of the lead paragraph/lede. It is also clear we are both editing WP in good faith. I would like to ask the folk at Tea House for their opinion. Myrtle.

1519:

See how there are many sources here that are not primarily affiliated with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? These are the kind of independent resources that you need in an article to prevent it from being deleted.

1455:

If this is the case and it's bothering you, you should create a new Genbukan article with good references! That's the beauty of wikipedia . . . good references tend to trump personal opinion.

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I want to say that all who are contributing to this section are showing professionalism, maturity, and intellectual integrity by trying to write a fair, well sourced article for Knowledge.

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From Encyclopédie technique, historique, biographique et culturelle des arts martiaux "Takagi Yoshin-Ryu (Jap): ... Hatsumi Maasaki et Tanemura Shoto l'ont repris dans leur enseignement".

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editors... The article on the Knowledge reads as an ensemble of bits and pieces that have not been placed on proper persepective because of some assumptions without proper research. --

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I do it for the sake of a majority. For a real majority, whereas you might have decided to do egoism for the sake of what objectively must have been called a, well, not a majority.

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Higashi, Katsukuma (1905). The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (Judo). New York: G. P. Putnam & Sons. p. 544. - A book written about Judo from before Brazilian Jiu Jitsu even originated.

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the discussion page on Genbukan and on the AfD were equated: as if saying that an article written about Jigoro Kano is as much a primary source as an article written by Kano.

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Let's face it, this topic is a real-life mess. There are supporters and detractors with well articulated positions. HOWEVER, between them is a vast sea of lunatics!

1731:"The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." 44: 651: 1351:- This is a blog written by people who only give their first names (Curtis, Joyce, and Logen). Not really a good source of information, as anyone could write a blog. 2303: 2143: 2139: 2125: 2035: 2031: 2017: 493: 2265:

This section reads like a flyer ad. Not sure whether it should be removed altogether, since editing it would probably result in nothing worth keeping. Thoughts?

1346:- This one directly copies it's information from this wiki page. Wiki pages can be edited by anyone, that means that it's not a valid source of information. 659: 521: 384: 255: 227: 802: 792: 697: 580: 79: 1216:

Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation, Volumen 2 Thomas A. Green,Joseph R. Svinth. Ninpo in the Modern Era. pp 170-172.

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That sounds super cool. But to be on Wiki we need access to published articles and public documents. It sounds like MSK is probably still classified.

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which I believe is not related to genbukan either. If 6 out of 10 references are not related to Gebukan that makes 40% related to Genbukan not 100%.

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Encyclopédie technique, historique, biographique et culturelle des arts martiaux, Gabrielle Habersetzer,Roland Habersetzer. p703. Takagi Soshin Ryu.

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members to support it), and want to flesh it out a bit I don't think that anyone would have issue with the creation of another Genbukan page.--

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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This is what makes one wonder: why write Wiki articles so people can just destroy them just because they do not like the subject?

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page and look at a few sources so you can see the difference between it and the Genbukan deleted pages that you've listed above:

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If you can find enough references that exist, are valid, and are not directly related to the Genbukan then make an article!--

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What is the point to contribute to the wiki if somebody that dislikes the subject comes along and destroys the work?

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Edward, Chad. "Untangling a sport that transcends style", October 30, 2007, azcentral.com, The Cincinnati Enquirer.

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and get it reinstated. If you have a problem with a specific person operating against wiki policy then check out

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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Discussion where articles in BB Mag, other magz, different sources, multiple dojo's etc. were provided -: -->

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modern schools (like many areas of martial arts) might not yet been studied by reliable independent sources.

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Virgílio, Stanlei (2002) (in Portuguese). Conde Koma - O invencível yondan da história. Editora Átomo. p. 93

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We must let MPOV exist in this article: the experts who believe in the historical link and those who do not.

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I come from reading the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and it does not seem to say what people are saying it says...

2270: 2099: 1872: 1829: 1771: 1630: 1497:- This is an independent article about Jiu-Jitsu (in relation to MMA competition) written by a journalist. 915: 875: 954:

The article reads "Many in the martial arts community...". We need to establish at least one of the many.

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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

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Silver Seren asks why his lead paragraph was shortened in my copy edit. There are two main reasons.

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I like this quote from the encyclopedia . . . it may be applicable to this modern ninja article:

1171:- 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability. 1166:- 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability. 1161:- 100% references are directly from the Genbukan. No independent sources to establish notability. 2238: 1359: 1349: 1302: 1294: 643: 70: 2146:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

2038:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Now I do not understand at all! It seems that there is a lot of confusion around these things.

2112:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141231161151/http://www.freewebs.com/bankeshinobinodenkensyujyo/

1977: 1868: 1824: 1766: 1625: 911: 871: 780: 753: 51: 1996:

https://web.archive.org/20120221142740/http://www.genbukan.ca:80/articles/tanemura_talks.html

2069: 1661: 1580:... established his Genbukan organization and began to propagate Takamatsu's traditions..." 1531: 1450:

1. There were additional Genbukan references that were not included in the Genbukan article.

1415: 1407: 1372: 1184: 1036: 1021: 967: 886: 2169: 2061: 1087:

I really don't see it from the citation below and what I remeber of the original articles.

1985: 815: 1820: 1660:- G. Cameron Hurst III, Martial arts of the world: an encyclopedia, 1st edition, p. 361-- 1031:

Question: Would there be support to rename this article to 'Modern schools of ninjutsu'?

795:

linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

400: 373: 339:

and suggestions to help improve this article. If you think something is missing, please

2274: 2255: 2218: 2191: 2128:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2081: 2020:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1950: 1925: 1896: 1876: 1850: 1834: 1812: 1792: 1776: 1754: 1708: 1685: 1669: 1650: 1635: 1618: 1598: 1562: 1539: 1441: 1423: 1399: 1380: 1331: 1281: 1245: 1192: 1150: 1108: 1070: 1056: 1040: 1025: 997: 984: 971: 944: 919: 894: 879: 852: 823: 788: 563: 2168:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

2115: 2060:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

1999: 1227:

_his_ webpage some unsubstantianted claims, What is the point in doing all that work?

1092:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2011_September_15#Genbukan

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provided including other magazines, dojo's around the globe, and encyclopedias -: -->

1084:

Is there a _real_ reason why Genbukan's page and Shoto Tanemura´s page were deleted?

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when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an

512: 1798:

Silver Seren suggests a combination of part of the shorter lead with a longer part.

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2. You believe that all martial arts pages only use primary sources. You listed

1258:

in some respects Tanemura on 86, where Hatsumi depicted Tanemura in a bad light.

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explanations on talk page regarding that _40%_ of references were Genbukan -: -->

1301:

was not related to Genbukan (it is broken now) and I am not being able to access

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Feel free to rewrite the information based on what the reference actually says.

1344: 1290: 1179: 1032: 1017: 963: 2134:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2026:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1579:

was instrumental in perpetuating Ninpo traditions" "In 1984 <Tanemura: -->

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F. Draeger has a page that looks like a fan page, Akban has a page, etc.

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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add

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Style of information about "Ghostblade School", and misused templates.

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 5#Martial arts craze

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Modern schools of ninjutsu makes more sense than the current name. --

1604:

Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation

787:, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the 1990:

to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

1299:

http://kageshin.startlogic.com/ninpolibrary/ninposanjurokkeis.html

1127:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Genbukan&oldid=355692061

1122:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Genbukan&oldid=292888031

1117:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Genbukan&oldid=448737196

931: 430: 1483:- This is a historical book about a prominent Judo practitioner ( 1203:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Genbukan

2237:

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect

808:

That this article is linked to from the image description page.

1303:

http://www.samurai-sword-shop.com/connector/category/genbukan/

1295:

http://wayofninja.com/2009/ninjutsu-martial-arts-the-genbukan/

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Deleted - poorly worded and quiet obviously an advertisment.

1524:

3. You believe that there is a bias against modern ninjutsu.

1514:- Masahiko Kimura (a prominent Judo guy) wrote this article). 962:

I think this article particularly is improved by this quote.

2005:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

1505:- A boxing website with information about the suspension of 805:

on the image's description page for the use in this article.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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The second reason relates to the instructions in the MOS,

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I have just added archive links to one external link on

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I do not know where did or do people get the idea that

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article was deleted without a pausible explanation.

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http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/koryu.html

663:: Participate in Japan-related deletion discussions. 451:. Current time in Japan: 21:54, September 27, 2024 ( 428:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2138:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2116:

http://www.freewebs.com/bankeshinobinodenkensyujyo/

2030:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2000:

http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

2289:Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors 1641:OK: will do as soon as I get the time: cheers! -- 832:What happened to the section regarding Jizaikan? 443:, where you can join the project, participate in 1312:demands for Black Belt Magazines Articles -: --> 1061:Since nobody commented I did the name change. -- 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2261:International Modern Ninjutsu Federation (IMNF) 775:Image copyright problem with Image:Ninjutsu.jpg 2124:This message was posted before February 2018. 2016:This message was posted before February 2018. 818:. For assistance on the image use policy, see 1339:Regarding the sources you've brought up Crio: 1291:http://www.ninjutsufederation.mk/schools.html 174: 8: 265:Knowledge:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors 2204: 2094:I have just modified one external link on 1447:Your complaints seem to be the following: 1414:and try to resolve the issue. Regards, -- 981:http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html 529: 368: 284: 268:Template:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors 216: 1297:is linked with Genbukan. And as I recall 1286:Regarding the post above by Stvfetterly: 783:is used in this article under a claim of 1691:Get rid of all the Random Capitalization 1509:(a prominent BJJer) for use of steroids. 1113:This is the original page for Genbukan: 2087:External links modified (February 2018) 1695:Including in the very title (should be 465: 370: 286: 218: 188: 1003:This article has an important function 2304:Low-importance Japan-related articles 7: 422:This article is within the scope of 329:This article is within the scope of 2211:2A0A:A540:2AC:0:C8DD:2539:FC65:4825 820:Knowledge:Media copyright questions 435:on Knowledge. If you would like to 207:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1723:to teach" or similar were removed. 1578:"In modern times <Takamtsu: --> 349:Knowledge:WikiProject Martial arts 14: 2098:. Please take a moment to review 1970:. Please take a moment to review 1882:Knowledge is not a dojo directory 1293:is linked with Genbukan, or that 520:This article is supported by the 352:Template:WikiProject Martial arts 2245:. This discussion will occur at 2232: 724: 409: 399: 372: 316: 306: 288: 238: 220: 189: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2225:"Martial arts craze" listed at 1583:It seems something is amiss.. 1156:Of the links you posted above, 1135:Truly there is an explanation? 932:http://www.koryu.com/index.html 814:This is an automated notice by 498:This article has been rated as 2299:C-Class Japan-related articles 1856:BARNSTARS for all contributors 824:05:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC) 271:Guild of Copy Editors articles 1: 2294:C-Class Martial arts articles 1765:wasn't summarizing anything. 1599:04:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 1563:04:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 1151:03:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 1109:03:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 533:WikiProject Japan to do list: 42:Put new text under old text. 2275:22:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC) 2192:09:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC) 2082:20:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC) 1897:20:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC) 1361:- Dead link as you mentioned 1356:- Dead link as you mentioned 1207:This sources are mentioned: 1071:23:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC) 1057:07:11, 27 October 2011 (UTC) 1041:09:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC) 1026:09:02, 26 October 2011 (UTC) 998:06:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC) 972:08:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC) 945:02:29, 26 October 2011 (UTC) 920:03:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC) 895:20:09, 12 October 2011 (UTC) 880:03:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC) 789:requirements for such images 2219:10:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC) 1686:02:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC) 1670:13:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC) 1651:16:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 1636:09:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 1619:07:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 1540:19:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC) 1442:19:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC) 1424:19:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC) 1400:19:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC) 1381:14:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC) 1332:01:12, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 1282:00:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC) 1246:18:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC) 1193:13:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC) 1012:the modern ninja movement. 655:to articles that need them. 594:Featured content candidates 478:Knowledge:WikiProject Japan 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 2325: 2309:WikiProject Japan articles 2155:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2096:Modern schools of ninjutsu 2091:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2047:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1988:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} 1968:Modern schools of ninjutsu 1963:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1951:11:59, 14 March 2015 (UTC) 1697:Modern schools of ninjutsu 853:01:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC) 758:Modern schools of ninjutsu 589: 504:project's importance scale 481:Template:WikiProject Japan 25:Modern schools of ninjutsu 1926:02:40, 14 June 2014 (UTC) 1851:11:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC) 1835:09:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC) 1813:07:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC) 1793:21:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC) 1777:20:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC) 1755:10:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC) 1714:Lead paragraph discussion 1709:16:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC) 1487:) who taught Judo to the 764:; for its talk page, see 528: 519: 497: 394: 301: 233: 215: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2256:07:39, 5 July 2022 (UTC) 2227:Redirects for discussion 1877:22:55, 2 July 2012 (UTC) 631:Good article nominations 332:WikiProject Martial arts 2241:and has thus listed it 1959:External links modified 2197:Mort Dinner Rick Andre 935:of place... 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Please use these 324:Martial arts portal 259:, on 7th June 2012. 2239:Martial arts craze 2180:InternetArchiveBot 2131:InternetArchiveBot 2023:InternetArchiveBot 781:Image:Ninjutsu.jpg 736:was nominated for 691:Japanese Knowledge 677:requested articles 668:Improve and expand 660:Pages for Deletion 644:Godzilla Minus One 568: 517: 253:, a member of the 203:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2221: 2209:comment added by 2156: 2080: 2048: 1916:comment added by 1178:You need to read 843:comment added by 772: 771: 746:23 September 2011 719: 718: 715: 714: 711: 710: 707: 706: 626: 625: 472: 433:-related articles 425:WikiProject Japan 367: 366: 363: 362: 283: 282: 279: 278: 245:This article was 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 2316: 2236: 2190: 2181: 2154: 2153: 2132: 2076: 2075:Talk to my owner 2071: 2046: 2045: 2024: 1989: 1981: 1928: 1832: 1827: 1774: 1769: 1633: 1628: 859:Western Ninjutsu 855: 801:That there is a 728: 727: 721: 652:requested images 588: 587: 530: 522:Sport task 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