1861:
by Tondo is not mentioned at all. Here is what Scott has to say: "At the time of
Spanish advent, Manila was the main entrepot in the archipelago: here exports were accumulated and imports redistributed. A few of these goods were carried in Luzon bottoms to or from Borneo, Malacca, Atje, and the Moluccas, but most of them were handled by foreign merchants - Malay, Bornean, Chinese, Japanese, Siamese, or Cambodian, even Portuguese" (p. 207). The impression given here is not that Maynila's shipping activities were the main drivers behind the trade of foreign goods around the Philippine archipelago, but rather that a large amount of foreign merchants in combination with a few local ones bought and sold goods from many different places (not just China/Japan) in Maynila and shipped them abroad to those same places. It certainly doesn't support the idea of a Tondo monopoly.
1842:
settlements in the area dates to around 1500s", attributing both of these sentences to Scott. On the contrary, Scott says: "The chiefdom of Manila, located in the present
Intramuros district, was probably founded as a Bornean trading colony about 1500, with a royal prince marrying into the local ruling family" (p. 191). Scott makes no mention of oral traditions or a 1250s Muslim principality. The book uses as its empirical basis Spanish accounts of encounters with Filipinos as well as Spanish dictionaries of Philippine languages; it would be strange to include oral sources. Similarly, he makes no mention of archeological findings relating to the 1500s settlement, as archeological findings are rarely if ever brought up in the book.
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622:) this article to Maynila (historical polity) in 48 hours unless there are objections supported by appropriate academic sources. I'm aware that ancient Maynila has often been referred to as a "Kingdom" in the past, but scholarship simply does not support this, and the use of the term is not so universal that the use of a more accurate term would be counterindicated. In the meantime, I'm leaving this note here as a request for discussion and a call for any objections. Thanks -
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921:. Also, my understanding is that Seludong was its name during a very specific time period, and it was called Maynila for the majority of its history. But whichever way, it seems clear to me that this is the archaic state that we all know was called Maynila, with a recognition of the idea that "Seludong" was part of its historical continuity... just as the Province of Quezon was once called the Province of Tayabas. -
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As far as I can see, pages 207-209 contain the only mentions of trade in
Tagalog areas, and while Manila is named as the main entrepot in the archipelago, there is no mention of its primary role in the distribution of these goods to the rest of the Philippine archipelago, and the monopoly established
1868:
I hope that I am mistaken and that somebody will be able to produce quotes from Scott's book that support the claims in this article, or find another, correct source for them. Perhaps they are from his 1982 book, which I have not read. As it is now, I have serious doubts about the validity of any of
694:
Oh, also, please note: In light of objections to the non-familiarity of the term "polity" in non-academic circles, the term currently used on the article is "historical entity." I suppose that description is so vague that people might make the initial mistake of thinking this is a
Biological entity
712:
Sorry, I was not able to follow your discussion on
Tambayan. I'll settle with whatever consensus you reached in there. Only the current title is kinda , yes vague and also confusing, like is it referring to the historic settlement called Maynila, or the historic state and its government prior to
1864:
Scott only mentions
Chinese trade ships once specifically: "The Chinese sent annual junks direct to the Philippines" (p. 207). This does not support the idea that Maynila controlled the trade of Chinese goods throughout the Philippine archipelago, or that Tondo had a monopoly on Chinese trading
1057:
and remained there for the longest time until changes to its disambiguation were introduced. However, the vast majority of academic sources continue to refer to it as "Kingdom of
Maynila" and only few mentions of "Seludong." Kindly refer also to the above discussion and Google Books statistics.
1848:"Scott observes that while the port of Tondo had the monopoly on arriving Chinese merchant ships, it was Manila's fleet of trading vessels which in turn retailed them to settlements throughout the rest of the archipelago, so much so that Manyila's ships came to be known as "Chinese" (sinina)."
1841:
Firstly, the introduction to the page suggests that "The earliest oral traditions suggest that
Maynila was founded as a Muslim principality in as early as the 1250s, supposedly supplanting an even older pre-Islamic settlement. However, the earliest archeological findings for organized human
965:
The beauty of WP:COMMONNAME is that we don't have to debate whether to call one as a
Huangdom/Wangdom, a Kedatuan/Kadatuan, or a Mandala, like with our discussion in Ma-i. This only covers those that need disambiguation though like Maynila and Tondo. We still have to come up with a standard
679:
But not to the point of inventing words, which would be
Original Research? The consensus in the discussion at the Tambayan was that Lakanate is simply not a word. That could change, of course, but until then, on the grounds of WP:NOR, and also for academic reasons,I would feel extremely
1854:"The most lucrative of Tondo's economic activities involved the redistribution of Chinese goods, which would arrive in Manila bay through Tondo's port and be distributed throughout the rest of the archipelago, mostly through Maynila's extensive shipping activities."
1869:
the claims written in this article. Ideally, every reference in the article would be fact-checked. I'm not sure what the usual course of action is here, perhaps somebody can help me out by marking these claims in the correct way or removing them if appropriate.
1257:– Current name is misleading as per current scholarly consensus (see Junker, 1990 and 1998, Scott 1984 and 1994, Jocano 2001, Abinales and Amoroso 2005, PCDSPO 2015, Rafael 2005, etc), although still used in popular media. Matter extensively discussed at
680:
uncomfortable with "Lakanate". Huh. The consensus on these decisions have to be repeated again and again. I think it's time to mine the old discussions and put all the agreements in one place, so we don't have to constantly repeat these debates. :S -
661:, those that were ruled by Sultans. That makes the article titles simpler and easier to guess, if using their common eurocentric names are an issue. There's the Lakanate and Kedatuan/Datunate? for those that were ruled by Lakans and Datus also (e.g,
727:
Interesting idea, "settlement." I'm not sure if it's been proposed. Perhaps we should use this as a venue for weighing the pros and cons? I have no objection myself. My primary concern is that the (mis)leading term "kingdom" not be used.-
886:
I know this article has been moved recently. But upon review of article links and available sources, and Google books stats between Kingdom of Maynila and Seludong, i think we might have to move this back to its old title following
1810:
I'm a bit surprised by the move away from Rajahnate, which seems to be present enough in the scholarly literature to be considered legitimate. After all, if you move Maynila to this Historical polity category, shouldn't you move
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1888:"Luzon" was the international name. It is in the same rank as Butuan when major polities were mentioned in Chinese and Spanish sources. It was never "Manila" (or "Maynila"), and much less "Tondo".
1815:
there too? The only reason Tondo remains in the "Historical polity" category is that there simply isn't a widely accepted term to describe the Tondo settlement's precise political structure. -
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I agree that the term "kingdom" is wrong when dealing with the political make-up of precolonial Manila and the more apt term would be "Rajahnate" since Manila was ruled by a rajah.-
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Apologies if this isn't the right way to do this, I'm new to Knowledge (XXG). However, having recently read the second source listed for this article, William Henry Scott's
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1397:. I can't find any academic objection to it, and I'm sure I've seen it in popular use. It's a good, academically/technically sound name that I hadn't thought of before
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
251:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please
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695:(an ancient sea monster of some sort, maybe), for the lack of consensus on an acceptable specific word I guess we'll have to live with / tolerate this. -
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1838:(1994), there are a lot of claims in this article that use this book as its source incorrectly. I give two examples here:
1562:: It is IMO borderline whether current detailed guidelines support this move, but we have a strong consensus that it will
432:-related subjects on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
338:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Addendum to my vote: The use of the word "Kingdom" is a whole different can of worms. I should state here that while I
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and a precedent as well, so I think it should proceed, and perhaps the guidelines should reflect this new consensus.
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article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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The River Dwellers, in Book Pasig : The River of Life (Edited by Reynaldo Gamboa Alejandro and Alfred A. Yuson)
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These claims are also repeated on the separate page Tondo (historical polity), with the same source.
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as reflected in the article's references. The article had been created under Kingdom of Maynila by
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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is the more neutral alternative. Kingdom is just plain academically wrong and misleading.-
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Concur with the suggestion – Seems reasonable, historically and technically correct. —
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to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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891:. The only problem would be the disambiguation. Check this out:
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give as a sane disambiguator. What's wrong, for example, with "
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966:(technical) term description for each in the lead though. :)--
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1422:. I support the move away from "Kingdom" as a misnomer, but
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Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society
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Also supporting "Bayan" or "Settlement" as an alternative.
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in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
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Filipino Prehistory: Rediscovering Precolonial Heritage
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Filipino Prehistory: Rediscovering Precolonial Heritage
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Odal-Devora, Grace (2000). Alejandro, Reynaldo Gamboa;
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Talk:Kingdom_of_Tondo#On "Kingdom" as a Mis-labelingand
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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1225:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1009:. No further edits should be made to this section.
769:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1745:Indigenous religious beliefs of the Tagalog people
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1598:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1262:Talk:Datu#2017 Re-opening of "Monarchy" discussion
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614:In order to avoid anachronistic references to the
462:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1520:- Because "Kingdom" as a misnomer, but I suggest
1269:A parallel (or at least closely related) move at
1093:. Reasoning by others in favor seems persuasive.
567:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Tambayan Philippines
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
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1830:Major issues with references to Scott (1994)
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261:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Former countries
1972:High-importance Philippine-related articles
1756:. Quezon City: Punlad Research House, Inc.
1709:. Quezon City: Punlad Research House, Inc.
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1942:Unknown-importance Southeast Asia articles
1884:This should be moved to "Kingdom of Luzon"
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570:Template:WikiProject Tambayan Philippines
1393:, I'm conceding to the proposed name of
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1967:Start-Class Philippine-related articles
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1341:- Upon reviewing old proposals, and
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1665:. Unilever Philippines. pp. 43–66.
1647:. Unilever Philippines. pp. 43–66.
1255:Maynila (early Philippine history)
14:
1355:Maynila (early Philippine history
1189:on 2017-08-15. The former page's
897:Kingdom of Maynila: 1,140 results
618:, I am proposing to move (as per
348:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Islam
50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
1977:WikiProject Philippines articles
1528:is an okay compromise there. -
1444:P.S. In a similar vein, we have
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988:Requested move 15 February 2017
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368:This article has been rated as
1806:Rajahnate vs Historical polity
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1691:Reference named "Jocano2001":
1526:Tondo (historical settlement)
1353:or as viable alternatives if
1204:Requested move 20 August 2017
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909:17:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
561:and see a list of open tasks.
480:This article is supported by
436:and see a list of open tasks.
342:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
1115:. As per my points above. -
632:04:53, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
248:WikiProject Former countries
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1643:Odal-Devora, Grace (2000).
1632:Reference named "Odal2000":
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882:The question of common name
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1401:raised it. Thaaank you. -
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610:From "Kingdom" to "Polity"
464:project's importance scale
423:WikiProject Southeast Asia
374:project's importance scale
351:Template:WikiProject Islam
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879:
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810:Hariboneagle927
800:
760:
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713:colonization.--
612:
589:High-importance
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540:
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514:High‑importance
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488:High-importance
447:
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266:
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198:
121:
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91:
61:
12:
11:
5:
1990:
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1929:
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1885:
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1871:SEA enthusiast
1831:
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1807:
1804:
1789:
1788:
1761:
1741:
1714:
1688:
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1649:
1609:
1603:
1601:
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1586:requested move
1580:
1579:
1578:
1557:
1540:
1515:
1494:
1493:
1492:
1473:
1472:
1458:WP:CONSISTENCY
1416:
1415:
1414:
1413:
1334:
1333:
1315:
1314:
1249:
1247:
1228:
1227:
1213:requested move
1207:
1205:
1202:
1199:
1198:
1193:now serves to
1169:
1158:
1152:
1150:
1149:
1135:requested move
1129:
1128:
1127:
1110:
1088:
1038:
1012:
1011:
997:requested move
991:
989:
986:
985:
984:
983:
982:
981:
980:
979:
978:
934:
933:
883:
880:
878:
877:
863:requested move
857:
856:
855:
838:
795:
793:
772:
771:
757:requested move
751:
749:
746:
745:
744:
743:
742:
741:
740:
692:
691:
690:
689:
611:
608:
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600:
597:
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585:
579:
578:
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559:the discussion
546:
545:
529:
517:
516:
508:
496:
495:
492:
491:
478:
468:
467:
460:
454:
453:
451:
439:Southeast Asia
434:the discussion
429:Southeast Asia
418:
406:
405:
397:Southeast Asia
394:
382:
381:
378:
377:
370:Mid-importance
366:
360:
359:
357:
340:the discussion
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310:
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295:Mid‑importance
289:
277:
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243:
231:
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213:
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206:
195:
181:
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118:
117:
113:
112:
107:
102:
93:
92:
90:
89:
82:
77:
68:
62:
60:
59:
48:
39:
38:
35:
34:
28:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1989:
1978:
1975:
1973:
1970:
1968:
1965:
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1955:
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1948:
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1943:
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1925:
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1918:
1915:
1913:
1910:
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1880:
1876:
1872:
1866:
1862:
1858:
1855:
1852:
1849:
1846:
1843:
1839:
1837:
1829:
1827:
1826:
1822:
1818:
1817:Alternativity
1814:
1805:
1803:
1802:
1799:
1794:
1785:
1772:
1764:
1762:971-622-006-5
1759:
1755:
1751:
1746:
1742:
1738:
1725:
1717:
1715:971-622-006-5
1712:
1708:
1704:
1699:
1695:
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1692:
1684:
1672:
1664:
1660:
1654:
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1640:
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1635:
1634:
1633:
1629:
1627:
1623:
1619:
1615:
1608:
1604:
1599:
1597:
1592:
1587:
1582:
1581:
1577:
1573:
1569:
1565:
1561:
1558:
1556:
1552:
1548:
1544:
1541:
1539:
1535:
1531:
1530:Juliaantengco
1527:
1523:
1519:
1516:
1514:
1510:
1506:
1502:
1498:
1495:
1491:
1487:
1483:
1479:
1475:
1474:
1471:
1467:
1463:
1459:
1455:
1451:
1447:
1443:
1442:
1441:
1437:
1433:
1429:
1425:
1421:
1418:
1417:
1412:
1408:
1404:
1403:Alternativity
1400:
1399:Juliaantengco
1396:
1392:
1391:Juliaantengco
1388:
1384:
1383:
1380:Conceding to
1378:
1377:
1376:
1375:
1374:
1373:
1372:
1368:
1364:
1363:Alternativity
1360:
1356:
1352:
1348:
1344:
1340:
1332:
1328:
1324:
1323:Alternativity
1320:
1317:
1316:
1313:
1309:
1308:
1302:
1301:
1300:
1293:
1290:
1289:
1288:
1287:
1283:
1279:
1278:Alternativity
1275:
1274:
1272:
1265:
1263:
1260:
1256:
1252:
1246:
1245:
1241:
1237:
1233:
1226:
1224:
1219:
1214:
1209:
1208:
1203:
1196:
1192:
1188:
1184:
1179:
1174:
1170:
1163:
1162:
1157:
1153:
1148:
1146:
1141:
1136:
1131:
1130:
1126:
1122:
1118:
1117:Alternativity
1114:
1111:
1109:
1104:
1099:
1096:
1092:
1089:
1087:
1083:
1079:
1075:
1072:
1071:
1070:
1069:
1065:
1061:
1056:
1055:Alternativity
1052:
1051:WP:COMMONNAME
1047:
1042:
1037:
1036:
1032:
1028:
1023:
1017:
1010:
1008:
1003:
998:
993:
992:
987:
977:
973:
969:
964:
963:
962:
958:
954:
953:Alternativity
950:
949:WP:COMMONNAME
946:
945:
940:
939:
938:
937:
936:
935:
932:
928:
924:
923:Alternativity
920:
919:WP:COMMONNAME
916:
913:
912:
911:
910:
906:
902:
898:
894:
890:
889:WP:COMMONNAME
881:
876:
874:
869:
864:
859:
858:
854:
850:
846:
842:
839:
837:
833:
829:
825:
822:
821:
820:
819:
815:
811:
808:
803:
798:
792:
791:
788:
782:
780:
777:
770:
768:
763:
758:
753:
752:
747:
739:
735:
731:
730:Alternativity
726:
725:
724:
720:
716:
711:
710:
709:
708:
707:
706:
702:
698:
697:Alternativity
687:
683:
682:Alternativity
678:
677:
676:
672:
668:
664:
660:
656:
652:
648:
644:
640:
639:Alternativity
636:
635:
634:
633:
629:
625:
624:Alternativity
621:
617:
609:
594:
590:
584:
581:
580:
577:
560:
556:
552:
551:
543:
532:
530:
527:
523:
522:
518:
512:
509:
506:
502:
489:
486:(assessed as
485:
484:
474:
470:
469:
465:
459:
456:
455:
452:
435:
431:
430:
425:
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419:
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412:
411:
407:
403:
398:
395:
392:
388:
375:
371:
365:
362:
361:
358:
341:
337:
333:
332:
324:
313:
311:
308:
304:
303:
299:
293:
290:
287:
283:
271:
254:
250:
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244:
241:
237:
236:
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229:
226:
223:
219:
214:
210:
204:
196:
192:
187:
186:
177:
173:
170:
167:
163:
159:
155:
152:
149:
146:
143:
140:
137:
134:
131:
127:
124:
123:Find sources:
120:
119:
111:
110:Verifiability
108:
106:
103:
101:
98:
97:
96:
87:
83:
81:
78:
76:
72:
69:
67:
64:
63:
57:
53:
52:Learn to edit
49:
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41:
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26:
22:
18:
17:
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1690:
1689:
1662:
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1631:
1630:
1625:
1611:
1590:
1583:
1559:
1542:
1518:Support move
1517:
1496:
1482:No such user
1462:No such user
1432:No such user
1423:
1419:
1387:No such user
1379:
1343:No such user
1338:
1336:
1335:
1318:
1305:
1297:
1296:
1291:
1268:
1267:
1266:
1248:
1231:
1229:
1217:
1210:
1173:this version
1139:
1132:
1112:
1103:Boracay Bill
1102:
1090:
1073:
1039:
1027:TonyBallioni
1015:
1013:
1001:
994:
943:
942:
917:, following
914:
885:
867:
860:
840:
823:
794:
775:
773:
761:
754:
693:
665:). Cheers!--
613:
588:
548:
481:
427:
421:
369:
329:
323:Islam portal
246:
209:WikiProjects
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
1780:|coauthors=
1733:|coauthors=
1596:move review
1505:Shhhhwwww!!
1223:move review
1145:move review
1078:Shhhhwwww!!
1007:move review
873:move review
828:Shhhhwwww!!
767:move review
555:Philippines
199:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1906:Categories
1890:Myrnamyers
1276:Thanks! -
1095:Wtmitchell
1016:page moved
779:Cúchullain
645:. We have
620:wp:be bold
1793:AnomieBOT
1771:cite book
1724:cite book
1681:ignored (
1671:cite book
1187:this edit
1101:(earlier
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1752:(2001).
1705:(2001).
1661:(eds.).
1543:Support.
1476:Support
1319:Support.
1299:Gunkarta
1292:Support.
1060:RioHondo
1041:Seludong
968:RioHondo
901:RioHondo
845:RioHondo
807:WP:NCDAB
802:Seludong
715:RioHondo
667:RioHondo
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1865:ships.
1568:Andrewa
1236:Andrewa
1191:history
1113:Support
1091:Support
1074:Support
841:Support
824:Support
591:on the
372:on the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1679:|work=
1497:Oppose
1424:please
1098:(talk)
402:Brunei
205:scale.
126:Google
1743:From
1696:From
1651:From
1637:From
1232:moved
1185:with
776:Move.
345:Islam
336:Islam
292:Islam
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1894:talk
1875:talk
1851:and
1821:talk
1784:help
1758:ISBN
1737:help
1711:ISBN
1683:help
1626:this
1572:talk
1551:talk
1534:talk
1509:talk
1486:talk
1466:talk
1452:and
1436:talk
1407:talk
1389:and
1367:talk
1337::*
1327:talk
1307:talk
1282:talk
1240:talk
1121:talk
1082:talk
1064:talk
1031:talk
972:talk
957:talk
951:. -
944:used
927:talk
905:talk
895:vs.
849:talk
832:talk
814:talk
734:talk
719:talk
701:talk
686:talk
671:talk
657:and
649:and
643:here
628:talk
583:High
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1588:.
1430:"?
1349:or
1264:.
1175:of
1137:.
899:.--
865:.
637:Hi
458:???
364:Mid
176:TWL
1908::
1896:)
1877:)
1823:)
1775::
1773:}}
1769:{{
1747::
1728::
1726:}}
1722:{{
1700::
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1669:{{
1655::
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1574:)
1553:)
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1488:)
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400::
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54:;
1892:(
1873:(
1819:(
1797:⚡
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211::
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128:(
58:.
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