Talk:Maltese language

2191:, and words apparently borrowed from an unattested language which must have been spoken in the general region in antiquity) which Sardinian and Sicilian have in common typologically (i. e., superficially), and which suggest a common non-Indo-European substratum, but more immediately the explanation which suggests itself is that a language strongly resembling Sardinian was spoken in southernmost Italy and Sicily in medieval times (just like in Corsica), and which was subsequently ousted by a language more like Neapolitan (Southern Italian), which in some ways (such as the vowel system, in particular) was much more like Standard Italian, and the interaction of which with the Sardinian-type language resulted in modern Sicilian, explaining the confusing state of affairs. 3240:

with this statistics. First, it is totally useless to substract the population of Malta from the estimated number of speakers and then state a exact number of 76,574 people can be attributed to the Maltese diaspora. This implies that you could give such a concrete number although it is totally nonsense as the first figure is an estimate. Secondly, the remaining figure can be attributed certainly not only to the Maltese diaspora. I guess there are at least a few thousand of people who are not Maltese who can nevertheless speak the language. I am not one of them and I do not have any prove for this, but in my opinion common sense does not allow for such as statement as the one above.

2149:

the speech of Tuscany (presumably specifically the medieval dialect of Pisa) and thus much more closely related to Standard Italian than to Sardinian, the popular speech in Corsica in the early medieval period seems to have been much more like Sardinian and appears to have influenced Corsican in the form of a substratum. Literature written in Roman Africa and Romance loanwords in Berber suggest that African Romance merged the Latin long and short vowels in the same way. Intriguingly, a group of dialects spoken in the area along the border of Calabria and Basilicata, according to

1658:

unofficially. I believe that such lists should be restricted to locations where the language has a very large community that uses it as a first language (very large meaning something more than a couple of small neighborhoods buried in major cities). For example, one can say that German is a language of Switzerland and Italy, but calling it a language of these United States, for example, would be misleading despite the fact that there are many German speakers in the U.S. and in the early 20th century there actually were large German-speaking communities.

1708:(just because they're pretty); and 3) the presence or (even) absence of a language in a given country (no matter how small the immigrant community is). I've been involved recently with an Armenian national who insists that there are no Azerbaijani speakers in Armenia even though there reliable references to the contrary. Nationalism definitely has a valid place in the world, but it's not always helpful or accurate. Would you be willing to remove the US and Canadian flags here because that's not the "native home" of Maltese? ( 2216:, the core region of the part of the Roman Empire which was situated on the continent of Africa (apart from Egypt), as this was the former heart of the Carthaginian Republic, and that Malta shared the Punic and Greek (recall what I said about Greek in Egypt) influences of the whole Africa-Sardinia-Corsica-Sicily region, the most suggestive and attractive conjecture that we can make about the dialect of Romance formerly spoken on Malta is that it resembled Sardinian a great deal (medieval Sardinian in particular). -- 1743:

speakers in the US and Canada. No argument there. The point is simply about the function of and philosophy behind the list of countries in the language template. Yes, I think that the use of flags in the list of countries is silly. I guarantee that the majority of people will recognize the word "Chad" in a list of names ages before they would recognize its flag in a parade of flags. Why are they in the language template? Because they are "pretty" and people like pretty colors in things. (

695: 237: 674: 606: 585: 2347: 705: 783: 848: 1004:. You're mixing up two different things: status as a language vs. lineage. The 'family' part of the infobox covers lineage. By lineage, Maltese is a descent of Siculo-Arabic, which was a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which was a variety of the Arabic macrolanguage, which is one of two branches of the Arabic languages. Your edits make the contrary claim that Maltese is a third branch of the Arabic languages, which is incorrect. 501: 480: 3470:"In Maltese, lexical stress is assigned on phonological grounds to the final, penultimate or antepenultimate syllable. It falls on the heavy (V: or VC) syllable closest to the right edge of the word, except in words having a closed final syllable, which can only be stressed if it is superheavy (V:C or VCC). In words in which there is no heavy syllable, lexical stress is penultimate by default (Vella, 2009)." 511: 291: 270: 2666: 2549: 2476: 2303: 301: 396: 375: 228: 406: 1932: 3313:(not literal Arabic as the article mentions), it might have more Classical Arabic words because it was taught directly as such to the assimilated Sicilians, in addition to assimilated Greeks, Berber and Slavs who were living in Sicily at that time. A group of those assimilated people brought the Sicilian versions of Arabic and Latin with them. 2710: 2043:

more about this issue myself. After all, the idea of Punic influence on Maltese has apparently seen quite some discussion in the literature, but I haven't seen any comments by scholars on the reconstructible linguistic situation at the time of the Arabic conquest, which is, after all, crucial to the question. --

1776:

encyclopedia. I was definitely not calling you silly. Some reasonably intelligent people like color in needless places, some people think it's silly. If you want to delete this whole thread from this Talk page, that's fine by me because you're right, it's not directly germane to the article's topic. (

2984:

Thank you very much for your reply. I would like to know if the Maltese are able to understand (and talk to) people from the Maghreb region (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya) in Maltese or Arabic dialects. And for example can Maltese unterstand Arabic TV channels from these Arab countries? As well

2949:

Answer: Maltese once started out as an Arabic dialect but it is no longer so. The reason for this being the great influence from European languages namely Sicilian, Italian and English successively. It is now a separate, autonomous language although its basic stratum is still Arabic. Thus, the native

2243:

The "Late Roman" language was almost certainly a descendant of Latin, similar to a Sardinian/Sicilian/South Italian dialect. The island may or may not have been depopulated during the 1st millennium, and then either repopulated or conquered by one or more waves of Arabs, presumably from North Africa,

2042:

don't say anything about the linguistic history directly, and perhaps nothing is known because no evidence is known to exist that could be used to infer anything about the vernacular language back then, let alone direct statements by contemporaneans. Sorry for not being more helpful, I'd love to know

1727:

The listings just represent other countries where Maltese people speak Maltese, and are documented as doing so. Canadian initiatives (working with the EU to promote Maltese amongst Maltese communities) are attested to. I don't see why you're hostile to that being represented. Or do you just object to

1676:

I agree with your concern. Unfortunately, the primary source for "spoken in" data is often Ethnologue or national census data. Nearly every language in the world with more than 10000 speakers could list the United States, for example. It is, I agree, quite silly to see fifty flags (not even just a

3312:

Dividing Sicilian influence into Arabic and Italian is misleading, as Sicily is the main linguistic source, opposed to direct Arabic or Italian influence, which is minimal at most. Sicilian is a sister language of Italian, Siculo Arabic is the language of the assimilated population of Emirate Sicily

3239:

The article states under "Demografics": "Indeed, nowadays 520,000 people across the world speak Maltese, while Malta has a population of only 445,426 people, which means that the remaining figure of 76,574 people can be attributed to the Maltese diaspora. " In my opinion there are two major problems

3027:

When it comes to spoken Maltese, I think it's more difficult, but they will understand sentences here and there. For other Maghrebinians it's similar, except that they will understand less than Tunisians. I don't really know how much Arabic is understood by Maltese people. These things aren't always

3023:

Tunisians can read Maltese fairly well if they have been introduced to the writing system (for example, x = sh, etc.). They may have some problems with the Italian words present in Maltese, but since most Tunisians know perfect French they can also understand many of these words. Another possibility

2398:

Text ""The immediate source for the Arabic vernacular spoken in Malta was Muslim Sicily, but its ultimate origin appears to have been Tunisia. In fact Maltese displays some areal traits typical of Maghrebine Arabic, although during the past eight hundred years of independent evolution it has drifted

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is preserved in the region, as well, like in Sardinian, and unlike neighbouring Italian dialects. While Sicilian (which is not only spoken on the island of Sicily, but also on the neighbouring mainland) must have gone through a phase where its vowel system was like the system characterising the more

2148:

from the 2nd century BC on (this development is first attested in Egypt). (The vowel merger in other Romance languages is less straightforward.) The most familiar member of this group is Sardinian. While modern Corsican (which includes some dialect groups spoken in northern Sardinia) is derived from

1371:

First of all, I agree with Taivo and Kwami. Maltese has Maghrebi origines. Kwami has already added several sources about it, I could add more. Second, the comparison with French and Latin is wrong. If both French and Latin would both be classed as Romance languages Mingeyqla would be right, but they

3696:

In this section the word "in place of" misleads the reader into thinking that Italian "o" is the typical Latin ending, whereas the Sicilian "U" is in fact the original Latin ending "Bonum", etc. Perhaps we should rephrase to "rather than" or "Sicilian phonetics rather than Italian phonetics" so the

2958:

It is the Maltese language. Newspapers and books are written in it, it's taught in schools, it's official in Malta and the EU. That sets it apart from Arabic dialects. -- But if you ask about the origin: then, yes, it is derived from an Arabic dialect, namely Sicilian Arabic (now extinct), which is

1760:

Meh. Is there any use cluttering this talkpage with what you'd 'rather' the standards be? Surely there's a better venue for such suggestions, somewhere where your proposed changes might actually be approved and implemented. As things are, nothing here will change. And as one of the people who quite

1692:

Is it necessarily a "nationalistic" perspective that colours such reactions? I'd be interested to see that claim substantiated, because for all the problems nationalism causes on Wiki, it seems the main fuel behind much maintenance over loads of projects/articles. An interesting tightrope to walk,

1707:

Experience in other articles is a hard teacher. Nationalistic insistence in these language templates in my experience generally involves 1) exaggerated population figures (that usually include either the entire ethnic population or all the potential L2 speakers in the world); 2) the pretty flags

1775:

Actually, I don't think anything could change even if a discussion were started and approved. And I was being civil. Being uncivil would call people who use flags "stupid". I don't think they're stupid at all. The "practice" (not the people) is silly because it really serves no purpose in an

1505:

I have no special knowledge on this subject, but I am wondering whether there is an agenda behind distancing Maltese from Arabic. Just from 'general knowledge' (coming from the UK) I was under the impression that Maltese was a variety of Arabic, albeit influenced by Italian (i.e. Sicilian). I've

1243:

I did read the conversation and you are trying to remove Maltese from "Arabic" and place it as a sister of Arabic in a family called "Arabic languages" which includes Ancient North Arabic. That implies that Maltese is a sister to Arabic and Ancient North Arabic, not a descendant of Arabic and a

1161:

We have been through this a thousand times before. Maltese is genetically descended from ARABIC, not from the putative ancestor of an "Arabic language family". This whole attempt to separate Maltese from its Arabic roots is utterly unjustified and ridiculous. Show your sources that Maltese is

3474:

The only incompleteness I have so far detected in this description is that its final sentence seems to ignore one-syllable words without a heavy syllable, if at all such words exist in Maltese. But otherwise it looks like a good starting point to be put in place of the current description. Any

1009:

Yes, of course Maltese is a separate language from Arabic. I don't think anyone disputes that. It is mutually unintelligible, ethnically distinct, and neither the Maltese nor the Arabs (AFAIK) claim Maltese as a dialect of Arabic. However, this has nothing to do with its lineage, which clearly

1742:

You misunderstand this discussion, I fear. Mcorazao made the comment that (s)he thinks that the language template should list only countries where the language is "native", that is, the homeland for the language. I happen to agree with that. No one said that there aren't documented Maltese

1657:

A common issue in many articles but I wonder about the "Spoken in" list at the top. Certainly I have no trouble believing that there are significant groups of speakers in all of these countries but, IMHO, it is misleading to include so many nations where the language has no real status, even

2239:

Speculation is rife. Florian suggests an early Romance (or late Latin?) language, with some Greek. Dan suggests some dialect/descendant of Phoenician. Maltese itself is most closely related to the urban north African dialects of Arabic, coincidentally the regions that were colonised by the

1526:

Some of the arguments here are incorrect, especially the claim that Maltese and Arabic are mutually unintelligible. Indeed the italian and english loans are incompatible with Arabic, but when it comes to the arabic words Maltese is mutually intelligble with Maghrebi. Indeed Il_Cantilena

3607:

in the pronunciation guide under "Approximate English pronunciation" by different words? (Most/many/several) English accents have (heavily) aspirated stops in the words currently in the table, whereas I do not hear (any) such (heavy) aspiration in spoken Maltese. (Try listening to e.g.

1440:

I've just read this article and also the maltese version of it. For me it's clear that Maltese is a Maghrebi Arabic although I am not an expert. I am Moroccan and it was easy for me to undersatnd nearly 70% of a text written in maltese (after reading the alphabet of course).

3235:

I am new to the community, so sorry in case I am not writing in the correct area. Unfortunately, the article about Maltese is semi-protected, so I cannot edit it. Maybe, an experienced user can read through my thoughts and edit the article accordingly. Thank you very much!

2244:

explaining the linguistic relationship to that region. The idea of Maltese being a direct descendant of Phoenician without a north African intermediary is improbable, as there is no evidence I know of that an Arabic-like language existed there during the Roman period.

1677:

list of names, but the darn national flags as well) flying next to a language of only 100,000 speakers who have relatives throughout the world. But try to trim those needless flags away or trim that list of countries and watch the nationalistic fervor burn bright! (

2259:

I haven't seen anyone above claim Maltese to be a descendant of Phoenician. But if someone were to claim that, it wouldn't be "improbable", but "impossible". Maltese is definitely derived from Arabic. Whether there was an Afro-Asiatic substrate is another question.

2033:

I have no idea what the sources say, if anything; my idea that Romance and Greek were spoken on Malta in the 9th century is just an educated guess (judging from the history and parallels in other regions formerly in the Roman Empire, especially nearby regions).

1406:

Oy. And here was I, thinking 2009 would bring some peace. Dancing around the Arabic issue (as distasteful as it is to some editors) doesn't do anything for the article's integrity. Though saying 'Maltese is Maghrebi' is rather silly.. Maltese is Maltese ^^

1421:

Neither Kwami nor I are tied to the Maghrebi connection. Personally, I think that the distinction between Maghrebi and Masriqi is probably a bit more recent than the separation of Siculo-Arabic from Arabic, but I'm not a specialist in that body of data.

2747:

I'm not an expert, but from the Maltese that I have heard, the sound does not actually occur in Maltese. It's doubtless much weaker than in Arabic. It sounds like a perfect to me, but maybe it's something in between, like . But certainly not a real .

2779:

The grammar section says that "adjectives of Semitic origin" take the article, and that only Romance adjectives don't. However, only short original adjectives take the article, while derived ones don't, even if they are of Semitic origin:

3061:

If both sides avoid Romance and English loanwords, I suspect inter-intelligibility would be quite high. The inherited Arabic part of Maltese is essentially a variety of Maghrebi Arabic, after all. Tunisian Arabic and Maltese

3740: 1117:("the oldest layer of Maltese has been closely related to the pre-Hilalian type of urban Maghrebi"). Singer, Hans-Rudolf (1980) “Das Westarabische oder Maghribinische” in Wolfdietrich Fischer and Otto Jastrow (eds.) 153: 241: 2182:

mentions texts (though their geographic origin is not given) which exhibit the Sardinian-type merger, just like the Lausberg Zone dialects of Southern Italy. There are other peculiar features (such as retroflex

2072:

states: "Phoenician ... was also spoken in the area of Phoenician colonization along the coasts of the South-Western Mediterranean, including, notably, those of modern Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria, as well as

3653:

I think we should cut the language family to Central Semitic, because there's no people called Maltese language as "Arab language". This is same to Ruthenian language to Ukrainian, Belarussian, and Rusyn.

1939:

Can you please explain the reason for this change? Those appear to the be standard modern Arabic spellings, not the Maltese spelling. If, however, that info is out of date or incorrect, please explain.

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Phoenicians. The history of Malta between the fall of the West Roman Empire and conquest by Arabs is very sparsely documented. I'm not even entirely sure it was continuously populated during that period.

1506:

noticed that in a number of articles Maltese is curiously labelled as "Semitic" and the "A" word is studiously avoided. Then I read this thread....What's the scoop? I'm just curious more than anything.

2576:

After (or in) the sentence "The oldest known document in Maltese is "Il Cantilena" (Maltese: Xidew il-Qada) by Pietro Caxaro." in the history section, please add the date of this document. The article

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Maltese is a Latinised variety of spoken historical Arabic through its descent from Siculo-Arabic, which developed as a Maghrebi Arabic dialect during the Emirate of Sicily between 831 and 1091.

3407:

The citation for Maltese being a variety of Arabic is the Maltese constitution, which makes no mention of this. Should this be removed or can another source be found to replace the current one?

3820: 1486:. I know it is not enough of a proof, but it should be enough to set the facts straight since the most distinctive thing about the varieties of Arabic is the verb conjugation of each variety. 3454:"the penultimate takes the stress" could refer to either the penultimate of the - implicitly supposedly no more than - two equally heavy syllables, or to the penultimate syllable in the word. 1037:

Let me put this in perspective for you. English came from Norse. However, when it developed into a separate language, it stopped being classified as Norse, and became a "Germanic language".

3499:

So, Maltese originates in Sicilian Arabic which itself came into exitence in the 9th century. As Latin had long been dead at that time, how can Maltese be a "Latinised" variety of Arabic?

3692:

They are mostly derived from Sicilian and thus exhibit Sicilian phonetic characteristics, such as /u/ in place of /o/, and /i/ in place of /e/ (e.g. tiatru not teatro and fidi not fede).

1327:

Latin is not a Romance language, so classifying French as Romance does not make it a sister to Latin. You really need to read some of this stuff before you use it to argue your point.

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At the time of the Arabic conquest? Presumably an early Romance language (and perhaps Greek by some), since Punic is exceedingly unlikely to have survived into the 9th century. --

823:

considered a mixed language merely because it has a large number of loan words, as is the case with English, Maltese, Romanian, Swahili, Japanese, and hundreds of other languages.

2487: 2144:, there is a subgroup of Romance, sometimes called Southern Romance, where Latin vowel quantities were lost by a merger of corresponding long and short vowels, incidentally 718: 679: 147: 3358:

Is there really no English equivalent to the Maltese digraph IE (ie)? I would of thought it is pretty much pronounced in words like variety, oriental, Vietnam, Vienna...

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Please add {{Wikivoyage|Maltese phrasebook|Maltese|a phrasebook}} to the external links. It will add a link to the phrasebook for the language at Wikivoyage. Thanks.

3631:

I am aware this is an approximation, but if ⟨r⟩ in Maltese is (in some circumstances) pronounced , why does the pronunciation guide approximate it with GA English bu

2115:

are the best indication we have that Punic (the Carthaginian form of Phoenician) was indeed spoken on Malta at some point, as expected for historical reasons anyway.

1162:

somehow a sister language to Arabic and the entry at "Arabic languages" would be justified. Otherwise, Maltese should fall under Varieties of Arabic (as it does). (

1129:

However, there are others who restrict the term "Maghrebi" to the varieties of Arabic which remained in North Africa, so it's to some extent a matter of definition.

3464:

https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pii/S0095447018301712?token=336806B5D78A9545385559641E0699A290993774BE4A01C1B71A6DDDD078482EAAF31058853C452F474679E88F6B9718

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It depends on the dialect, but yes, is a very common pronunciation, particularly before vowels. is also common, however. In a few dialects it's even .

1761:

likes a little colour in life, I reject the implication that such an appreciation (through national flags!) is silly. A little more civility is in order.

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as the phrase has been used since the 1970s, is a language that originated in the grammatical and lexical fusion of two other languages, for example

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are not. Latin is an Italic language, not a Romance language. In fact, Mingeyqla's example shows the opposite. For French, we've got Latin -: -->

1077:

English does not come from Norse. Norse influenced its lexicon and grammar, playing a role more like Sicilian than Arabic in the case of Maltese.

3755: 3547:

is a suffix marking gender (or: gender marking suffix ;-)), while at the same time stress is shifted one syllable towards the end of the word.

1244:"nephew" of Ancient North Arabic. Kwami is 100% correct in his corrections to your assertions. We have been over this time and time again. ( 462: 357: 347: 2498:

text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of

1019:

I'm not wedded to "Maghrebi" particularly, but I think we do need to show that Maltese is a descendant of Arabic, and not a sister language.

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It says: Maltese has five short vowels, /ɐ ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ/, written a e i o u; six long vowels, /ɐː ɛː ɪː iː ɔː ʊː/, written a, e, ie, i, o, u,

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

2629: 1482:

No it has not, if anything, the Arabic variety most closely related to Maltese is Tunisian Arabic. Just look at verb conjugation in

1591:. Maybe someone who knows Maltese and English can come up with a better example for English speakers of how the pronunciation of 613: 590: 428: 323: 3066:

loanwords should be no less mutually intelligible than Tunisian and Algerian Arabic – at least in my theoretical expectation. --

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In light of the fact that Malta lies exactly in between Sardinia, Calabria/Sicily and the region which comprises the ancient

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Moreover, Maltese is also closely related to Tunisian Arabic even though Maltese is not considered as a dialect of Arabic

2594:

The template is wrong to say I have a conflict of interest. I only cannot make this edit because the article is protected.

2525:

for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Knowledge takes copyright violations very seriously.

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Maltese has more in common with Lebanese varieties if anything. Maybe you're Lebanese and don't even know it. Lol? LoL.

791: 723: 250: 3432:"When two syllables are equally heavy, the penultimate takes the stress, but otherwise the heavier syllable does, e.g. 419: 380: 314: 275: 65: 3336:; and seven diphthongs, /ɐɪ ɐʊ ɛɪ ɛʊ ɪʊ ɔɪ ɔʊ/, written aj or għi, aw or għu, ej or għi, ew, iw, oj, and ow or għu. 1285:

No, that is like saying that French is now seen as a sister to Latin because it is classed as a "Romance language".

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says it "dates from the 15th century (no later than 1485, the death of its author, and probably from the 1470s)".

1376:

Maltese. Rather simplified, but the fact remains that French is Romance and Latin is not. And Maltese is Maghrebi.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2863:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2461: 1044:, but when Maltese became its own language and lost mutual intelligibility, it then came to be classified as an 895: 828: 207: 3550:

Other examples are: Malti(ja), Għawdxi(ja), and probably also qalbi(ja), xemxi(ja), qamri(ja), baħri(ja), etc.

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speakers of Maltese (I'm one of them) cannot understand Arabic except for a few words maybe. Kind regards.

1634: 2456:Ħħ can be pronounced , as in standard Maltese and also or , as in western dialects. Both are correct. -- 799:

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http://malta.academia.edu/MarioCassar/Papers/99102/Vestiges_of_Arabic_Nomencalture_in_Maltese_Surnames

3384: 3270: 3209: 3031: 2997: 2962: 2931: 2837: 2755: 2617: 2518: 2495: 2433: 2263: 2081: 1880: 1534: 1444: 1408: 1286: 1206: 1099: 1056: 986: 227: 3640: 3500: 2331: 2069: 1888: 1766: 1733: 1698: 1470: 1290: 1210: 1103: 1060: 1049: 990: 958: 161: 55: 1531:) is astonishingly intelligible for a maghrebi, while maybe not so for a mashreqi. Kind regards, 726: