1887:. It is important for an encyclopedia to be consistent in the naming of articles. So we should have as close to one naming convention for peoples names as is practical. Anything less is confusing. The policies listed by the above opinions in support of this really are supporting this basic need. When we have a project saying that we can override those conventions for certain sports players when they make sense for the rest of the encyclopedia, we are asking for confusion in naming. If a specific form of someone's name is more commonly used in English, that is what we should be using. The fact that in their native land they have a different name is something that is covered in the articles lead and not the title.
1809:
just makes the dispute simmer on the back burner for everyone who cares about it at all, leaving it unresolved and festering, with minor eruptions every time that something like this comes up. Just because nobody is willing to be disruptive enough to get blocked over the issue doesn't mean that there's consensus for it. If you weren't around (as an admin, incidentally... you deny that has an effect, and it's certainly true that you've never make an overt threat to enforce things as an administrator, but the implied threat is obvious to everyone ), I'm certain that things would be
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article title that
Britannica or Webster would chose, and if a different title is chosen initially the article is renamed by someone with more experience with reference works / someone who is able to get the diacritics right – usually with no opposition at all because everyone agrees it's the right thing to do. This doesn't take a conspiracy or group effort of "pro-dios" editors. It's just what you get naturally when you set up a project such as Knowledge (XXG).
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trump in the hands of the "anti-diacritics fighters", and they are able to take advantage of this. It is apparently entertaining for some editors, but not for me. Nobody forces me to comment here, however, I feel that I have to help to prevent chaos and inconsistency and I comment in the "discussions" like a stupid monkey. I'm afraid we can hardly stop this, unless we compile a precise guideline about using diacritics in the
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885:- move all. None of these are nationals of English-speaking nations and none have given up their Slavonic passports, AFAICT. I am opposed to bastard Romanisation by dumbly stripping away diacritics that effectively remove letters from an alphabet belonging to another language that cannot be rendered using only the '26 letters'. --
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That isn't the case at all. The compromise actually removes them from more pages than it adds them to. It removes them from every page involving the NHL or hockey in North
America which greatly outnumbers the number of pages for actual players. There used to be battles on hundreds of pages adding and
1768:
There are many other articles affected by this question. The "compromise" is nothing of the kind, by the way. All it is, simply, is a small group of editors who have decided to take the position that diacritics should be used as much as possible. They have various reasons for feeling that way, but...
973:
These are standard diacritics in stable systematic use for a
European language. Just as we would not convert "é" to "e" for the French name "René", we should not convert these for Czech. Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia, not an email. If the subjects themselves formally adopt anglicised versions of
916:
A combined discussion does not stop this. People can support all but one or however many in a central discussion like this. Multiple articles are lumped together at Afd all the time and there is probably a bigger argument for those being separate than mere page moves. If you only support certain ones
775:
Wouldn't it be weird to have one guideline for more notable people, and another for less notable people of the same nationality and spelling? Where draw the line? And should they be moved when they become more notable – and moved back when their notability eventually fades? Doesn't make much sense to
760:
Those who have careers in
English speaking regions would reasonably appear in English language sources, and may have English language names that are not the same as their names in the region of origin. It could be anglicized with variant spelling or name substitution, so therefore each of those cases
557:
Some editors want to treat some of these articles differently from others, as regards naming. Furthermore, this page doesn't seem to be a place where people are willing to discuss the separate requests separately, as there's been ample time to do so. Therefore I recommend that anyone who wants to see
1975:
And you make a key point, that some of these may make sense, but as a group nomination we are not really discussing those. For those articles where there are reliable sources for the rename, they should be renominated on that basis. This gets articles at the correct name and ends the drama of this
1950:
for procedural reasons. (Can't support 100% either way) I think there is too much variation. That said, I would not move
Ruzicka, Hocevar or Hruska. Those seem to have enough English sources without the diacritics to satisfy commonname (for the purposes of this English wiki). The rest don't IMO, and
1808:
Sure, sure... I don't agree with your compromise at all, though. As a matter of fact, I think that it's damaging to the community. If it didn't exist then there would have been quite a bit more discussion a while back, but it would have reached an actual conclusion eventually. The current situation
1319:
This has been standard practice for years, as the huge number of articles on barely notable subjects show which are located at diacritics titles. Knowledge (XXG) is a wiki that tries to be an encyclopedia. It is not surprising at all that a lot of people take that seriously and choose precisely the
2119:
One of the other requested moves for Czech hockey players claimed the name had diacritics but at the time it was filed, there was no reference showing the form of the name with diacritics, so it was being requested with a handwaving reason. Indeed no reference was provided until several days after
2096:
What's the issue? It is an effort of the "anti-diacritics fighters" to complicate things a bit more. We jump from a talk page to another and parrot the same words over and over. The result is still the same, as far as I know, but I have to admit that the effort is entirely legitimate. It is a big
1901:
Ridiculous argument. The move proposal is perfectly in line with general
Knowledge (XXG) practice, general practice in English reference works such as Britannica or Webster, and with the naming guideline (unless you interpret it incorrectly). About 4% of our article titles contain diacritics. The
1866:
look into any of these things before stating your opinion on them. To say that no compromise exists, when it has in fact been around for quite some time, and followed by most WP:HOCKEY members, is absolute craziness. It's getting beyond too difficult to take anything you say here seriously. –
2160:
Nothing is stopping editors from discussing the individual articles individually, and on this page. Just start talking about each one, and work out which one(s), if any, should stay and which one(s), if any, should move. There's no need to fuss about which venue to use; just discuss.
1527:
No actually you didn't which is why diacritics specifically mentions not using google search numbers. Because google search numbers are not all reliable sources as you need to use and because of OCR errors google search results often list characters with them as not having them etc.
1252:
per our standard practice. People get
English names by moving to English-speaking countries and changing their names, or by becoming so famous that their names become household words. But none of these guys is a US resident nor does any of them come even close to the notability of
1794:
removing them. This compromise or whatever you choose to call it stopped that from happening on many pages so that on team pages/season pages/league pages/lists and whatever else exists they are removed. There are far more of those types of pages than there are player pages. -
1261:. Why does this have to be argued out in dozens of individual cases while there are huge discussions with wide participation going on in which there is clearly no consensus for changing our practice, and a majority for keeping it? This is getting very disruptive.
1813:
different among Ice Hockey articles, at least (which are now pointed to as a reason to generally move to a "diacritics wherever possible" system). Anyway, I don't expect to really be heard about this. It'll simply to continue to fester, unresolved. Such is
2080:
It seems sensible to have these discussions all at the same place, rather than dispersed over 10 different talk pages; there appear to be appropriate notifications on each talk page to the effect, so people will know to come here. What's the issue?
561:
This closure is neither an endorsement of the current names, nor an endorsement of the proposed names. We're just changing procedural gears here. If you have any questions about this close, or about how to proceed, please let me know. Thanks. -
1992:
I guess it would freak people out too much, and we need to close this and open separate requests so people see recognizable procedures behaving predictably.... it would be a lot more efficient to just sort it all out once and be done with it.
558:
these names change should proceed by breaking this request, if not all the way down to individual requests, at least into pieces that are easier to talk about all at once. There might be some natural way of grouping them; I don't know.
1305:. Boldly stating that it is a common practice does not make it true. Just because a few dedicated pro-dios editors have been moving hundreds of articles to use non-English letters in the title does not make it a "standard practice".
671:
should apply here. Also please note, that the only articles in the "Czech ice hockey players", "Slovak ice hockey players" and "Slovenian ice hockey players" categories without diacritics in article titles, have been created by
1996:
Should I go ahead and close this, and recommend that they be brought back as individuals? The discussion's not quite stale, but I don't see us reaching a conclusion on this talk page, at this time, about all those articles.
1343:-- surely "Martin Ruzicka" is not English, it's just modified Czech. If the argument is that the names without diacritics are most commonly used in English-language sources, I would expect to see some evidence of that.
1902:
number of article titles that could conceivably contain diacritics but don't is significantly less. (Less than 1%, but I don't have an estimate for the number since my random experiments haven't turned up any so far.)
2253:
901:
the ones who are/were in North
America should be examined to see if they have a common name that is not their real name, such as a nickname. That should be done separately for each one of those players.
667:– Rename to include diacritics, to reflect the standard practice across most biographies. The name is used by the subject of this article. The name is used by most non-English sources, therefore
2146:
Not sure I see the issue, it is common practice, and actually preferred to have discussions happen in one place so that they don't have to be rehashed over and over again in multiple places. -
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2055:, that are all be placed at the same location, or should each move request be made on its own page so the merits of the many move requests can be discussed on a case-by-case basis?
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1052:
You realize that link has nothing to do with this situation right? That it is standard to point out when someone double !votes? So that they aren't mistaken for a second person. -
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864:. Each move must be judged on its own merits. Lumping these moves all together does not allow for a case-by-case anysis to determine if the rename is, or is not, justified per
817:
Using diacritics is a well-established standard for Czech names, at least for the players with real articles. These stubs should be brought into line. See the discussion at
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2101:. Their strategy consists of reverting and copypasting three sentences on various forums, and it is an interesting and good strategy. It wins over rational thinking. --
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1573:" also include the proper Andrej Hočevar variant (4X just on first page), not to mention first page of results includes myspace, facebook and (2X) youtube links. --
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I don't see why we can't discuss them individually right here and now. Nobody's stopping you; just say which ones should move and which ones should stay. Why not?
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42:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
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compromise on all player articles (as the community is divided regarding use of diacritics), then there may be a few hundred other articles to also fix.
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being moved then you say so in your comment. When it comes to an admin closing the discussion they decide which ones had support and which didn't. -
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V = IR is absolutely correct. There is no WP:HOCKEY compromise. The links offered in support of this mythical compromise just send you out on a
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those who have played in North
America should each have a separate requested move for each article, instead of being bundled into this one.
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That would be the accusative. But yes, even when he isn't the subject of the sentence, English is not an inflective language. -
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Wow. The number of times you just blatantly ignore established procedures on
Knowledge (XXG) really begs the question of if you
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clearly lays out that counting pure google numbers is an invalid way to determine this because it is completely inaccurate. -
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I would not object to moves as their notability is primarily in Europe. But examining the content might reveal otherwise.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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The motives (per your assumption) of some editors don't matter, it's the issue at hand and the merits of the case.
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955:: Everyone has basically hit the nail on the head here. No established usage on diacritics means they belong. –
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reliable sources. This applies to the title of the article – but within the text of the article, pursuant to
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requires that the article title is to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in
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2188:. (This is only an educated guess, so I won't revert.) I'm all for diacritics but let's leave him in the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1366:- A quick Google search confirms that each of the current article titles is the commonly used name per
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standard practice to use diacritics is article titles and, in fact, it is a violation of Wiki-policies
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as standard practice and also WP:HOCKEY standard, which a single super persistant user can't change.--
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53:. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
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compromise and non-existant guidelines on diacritics in personal names, whether in WP:AT or WP:UE.
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does seem to indicate that these names should have diacritics barring evidence to the contrary.
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Well this numbers are just wrong, because for example "Andrej Hocevar = about 490,000 hits
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these diacritics on English Knowledge (XXG) as most readers will not recognise them. --
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as we're not here to name articles, merely to sooth those with 'mother country' pride.
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2124:- moving to a name that is not attested to is not verified. This is why each
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should be examined closely to see if the references support the request.
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1370:(with the exception of Martin Hlavacka where the usage is about equal):
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per nom and is the standard for players who names contain diacritics. -
676:. References for diacriticized names are included in given articles. -
1003:, the person's legal name should usually appear first in the article.
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mostly for reasons already outlined above by Kauffner and Ohconfucius.
1548:“Search engines are problematic unless their verdict is overwhelming”
165:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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with non-anglicized personal names written in the Latin alphabet.
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Should we tolerate multiple move requests, possibly contrary to
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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1587:"A quick google search" never "confirms" anything. Period. -
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pages not moved now, no prejudice against moving individually
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Unknown-importance biography (sports and games) articles
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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the requested move was started. This seems to violate
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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My mistake, thought you were voting here. Apologies,
386:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
284:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2249:Start-Class biography (sports and games) articles
2176:The last edit changed the name in the lede from
862:Stongly oppose multiple RM on procedural grounds
746:Why? Do different standards apply to each one? —
669:Knowledge (XXG):DIACRITIC#No established usage
1189:Jimbo Wales has commented on diacritics, see
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2289:WikiProject Ice Hockey biographical articles
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1696:Hmm ... nobody's talking here about using
487:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Czech Republic
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1339:: I wonder what the people above mean by
1476:Sabahudin Kovacevic = about 14,600 hits
1471:Sabahudin Kovačevič = about 4,160 hits
1378:Martin Ruzicka = about 1,670,000 hits
974:their names, we get a different story.
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2299:Low-importance Czech Republic articles
1769:it's only a "compromise" between them.
400:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ice Hockey
1509:I followed the method as laid out at
1439:Martin Hlavačka = about 25,100 hits
1422:Andrej Hocevar = about 490,000 hits
1388:Peter Hamerlik = about 18,300 hits
1373:Martin Růžička = about 138,000 hits
1279:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
175:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography
7:
2304:All WikiProject Czech Republic pages
2259:Sports and games work group articles
2192:when he's subject of the sentence. —
1466:Marian Smerciak = about 2,770 hits
1444:Martin Hlavacka = about 25,100 hits
1417:Andrej Hočevar = about 32,500 hits
1410:Tomaz Razingar = about 8,790 hits
1400:Lubomir Pistek = about 6,600 hits
1162:per WP:COMMNONAME, WP:UE, and WP:AT.
551:The result of the move request was:
467:This article is within the scope of
380:This article is within the scope of
298:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Olympics
278:This article is within the scope of
151:This article is within the scope of
2294:Start-Class Czech Republic articles
2239:Biography articles of living people
1405:Tomaž Razingar = about 3,120 hits
1383:Peter Hamerlík = about 2,620 hits
490:Template:WikiProject Czech Republic
91:It is of interest to the following
1739:– If we really should enforce the
1454:David Hruska = about 706,000 hits
1395:Ľubomír Pištek = about 1,730 hits
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1449:David Hruška = about 72,000 hits
1432:David Kveton = about 75,100 hits
1427:David Květoň = about 6,190 hits
1345:WP:DIACRITIC#No established usage
799:per nom and WP:Hockey standards.
2274:Low-importance Olympics articles
1461:Marián Smerčiak = about 86 hits
989:Stongly oppose on policy grounds
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218:the sports and games work group
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2244:Start-Class biography articles
1143:standard encyclopedic practice
993:Knowledge (XXG):Article titles
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1:
2279:WikiProject Olympics articles
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481:and see a list of open tasks.
394:and see a list of open tasks.
301:Template:WikiProject Olympics
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215:This article is supported by
35:biographies of living persons
1741:WP:HOCKEY#Wikiproject notice
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163:contribute to the discussion
2047:RfC: Multiple move requests
47:must be removed immediately
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2007:Sounds reasonable to me.
513:project's importance scale
470:WikiProject Czech Republic
324:project's importance scale
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1276:per Kotniski and Hans. --
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2037:Please do not modify it.
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1315:15:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
1289:18:34, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
1269:09:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
1076:14:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
1062:14:07, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
1048:13:15, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
544:Please do not modify it.
493:Czech Republic articles
1235:, standard practice.--
383:WikiProject Ice Hockey
195:
81:This article is rated
1191:User talk:Jimbo Wales
462:Czech Republic portal
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154:WikiProject Biography
85:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1936:Hans put it nicely.
1542:No, actually I did.
819:Talk:Jaroslav Špaček
281:WikiProject Olympics
273:Olympic Games portal
2184:, which I guess is
662:Sabahudin Kovačevič
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1036:WP:JUSTAVOTE
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640:David Hruska
626:David Květoň
622:David Kveton
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93:WikiProjects
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39:
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2130:65.94.47.63
2103:Vejvančický
2084:Ohconfucius
2009:Vegaswikian
1978:Vegaswikian
1889:Vegaswikian
1702:Vejvančický
1546:warns that
1195:65.94.47.63
904:65.94.47.63
888:Ohconfucius
763:65.94.47.63
734:65.94.47.63
730:Oppose some
696:Vejvančický
83:Start-class
2233:Categories
1938:Agathoclea
1925:PMAnderson
1846:Snipe hunt
1654:Bermicourt
397:Ice Hockey
388:ice hockey
347:Ice Hockey
2163:GTBacchus
1999:GTBacchus
1870:Nurmsook!
1619:WP:HOCKEY
1220:Cloudz679
1068:Cloudz679
1040:Cloudz679
1001:WP:MOSBIO
958:Nurmsook!
694:per nom.
564:GTBacchus
172:Biography
112:Biography
51:libellous
2111:contribs
2072:contribs
2060:unsigned
1957:alaney2k
1864:actually
1829:Contribs
1784:Contribs
1760:contribs
1710:contribs
1698:Cyrillic
1650:Cyrillic
1259:Napoleon
1237:Kotniski
1210:because
1177:Contribs
971:Support.
849:Kauffner
827:Kauffner
704:contribs
678:Darwinek
295:Olympics
286:Olympics
242:Olympics
2194:Tamfang
2148:DJSasso
2064:Dolovis
1934:Support
1850:Dolovis
1796:DJSasso
1737:Comment
1648:use of
1615:Support
1552:Dolovis
1530:DJSasso
1515:Dolovis
1497:DJSasso
1480:Dolovis
1364:Comment
1349:Jafeluv
1337:Comment
1307:Dolovis
1274:Support
1250:Support
1233:Support
1208:Support
1187:Comment
1139:Support
1110:GoodDay
1089:Support
1054:DJSasso
1022:DJSasso
1005:Dolovis
953:Support
936:Support
919:DJSasso
899:Comment
883:Support
870:Dolovis
815:Support
801:Anthony
797:Support
748:Tamfang
717:DJSasso
713:Support
692:Support
511:on the
322:on the
2122:WP:BLP
1948:Oppose
1917:Oppose
1885:Oppose
1819:V = IR
1774:V = IR
1646:Oppose
1575:Sporti
1293:It is
1167:V = IR
1160:Oppose
1147:Prolog
1106:Oppose
1093:Sporti
980:oetica
843:, per
841:Oppose
805:(talk)
89:scale.
2053:WP:AT
1907:Adler
1814:life.
1341:WP:UE
1325:Adler
1303:WP:EN
1299:WP:AT
1284:talk
1266:Adler
866:WP:AT
845:WP:UE
2219:shoe
2214:lake
2211:file
2198:talk
2152:talk
2134:talk
2107:talk
2068:talk
2013:talk
1982:talk
1966:talk
1942:talk
1904:Hans
1893:talk
1854:talk
1825:Talk
1811:much
1800:talk
1780:Talk
1706:talk
1658:talk
1627:talk
1617:per
1599:shoe
1594:lake
1591:file
1579:talk
1556:talk
1534:talk
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1501:talk
1484:talk
1353:talk
1322:Hans
1311:talk
1301:and
1263:Hans
1241:talk
1224:talk
1199:talk
1173:Talk
1151:talk
1141:per
1128:talk
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1097:talk
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908:talk
874:talk
853:talk
831:talk
782:talk
776:me.
767:talk
752:talk
738:talk
721:talk
700:talk
682:talk
161:and
2180:to
2034:.
1753:Mid
1746:Hey
1295:not
1218:?)
821:or
503:Low
314:Low
40:BLP
2235::
2200:)
2154:)
2136:)
2113:)
2109:|
2081:--
2074:)
2070:•
2015:)
1984:)
1969:)
1953:ʘ
1895:)
1856:)
1848:.
1827:•
1816:—
1802:)
1782:•
1771:—
1762:)
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1708:|
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1486:)
1355:)
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1243:)
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1193:.
1175:•
1164:—
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1038:.
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