1190:). I'm not the only person wanting to add this, as you see in this discussion. We cannot reach consensus just by removing the content while the discussion is still ongoing. IMHO, the content is equally, if not more, about the M-IC itself in a counter perspective (after all, M-IC itself is a counter perspective to wars and other military actions). And that's not the only source that has this viewpoint. Even if you still think it's a "fringe" viewpoint, it has been added only in a section that discusses about other similar views/concepts, not in the lede. Wonder how you think it's of undue weight. Let me not revert this time but would want a sound reason for your opposition. Thank you.
1283:"Knowledge (XXG) should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth). To give undue weight to the view of a significant minority, or to include that of a tiny minority, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Knowledge (XXG) aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject."
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etc.). The concept is well-researched in the academics, so the addition is not to "promote" the concept as you think, but only to further the topic on hand, viz. the M-IC. What is needed further is the inclusion of the relationship of the M-IC with other complexes, which needs to be done with proper sources. Hope this makes sense now.
1064:, an anti-war concept of the late-20th century. For example, the following words in Slater and Nocella’s book says the same thing: "The exploitation of animals, argues Colin Salter, is not necessary to military-industrial complexes, but it is a foundational and central element of the military-industrial complex as it actually exists."
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section named something like "Development of other similar complexes". If we do not have mention about other complexes, it only means we must add them, not remove the info on the A-IC. Apart from the A-IC being a progeny of the M-IC, most importantly the A-IC and M-IC are linked by the extended development of the complex named the
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cannot be given due weightage), the relation between M-IC and other complexes only furthers the concept of M-IC. They are not opposing the idea from a fringe position but only adding to the concept. It's not a fringe, at least not as much as you call the idea against climate change. That's a world of difference.
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menace was wildly overblown, and the
Germans never had a realistic change at winning the campaign. Had every other scholar basically ignored him, so would we, as it would have been a fringe viewpoint; but since his book was fairly well-received by other historians and prompted a scholarly debate, his
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A perfect example: yes, you can find a small group of scientists who disagree with climate change, but we don't treat their view as equal to the vast majority of scientists who support the concept. And if that group did not have the propaganda machine that is conservative media behind it, we wouldn't
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the narrow field of study picked up on the idea? In other words, we as a tertiary source need to reflect what the consensus of secondary sources say, and while you may be able to find one or two sources that say this or that, if it's not a relatively widely held viewpoint, we shouldn't treat it as it
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That link in "See Also" can be removed when we have it in the text (am removing those). But it's absurd to remove the sourced info just because we have a general link, especially when the info is more pertinent to the topic itself (in this case, the military-industrial complex, the avoidance of war,
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and arguing in one book (from 2013, and it didn't get much wide recognition, maybe eventually in some circles) about to this two complexes are similar or the same or so. Anyway that is arguing and to be added here to this topic it needs wide recognition and notability in sources and academic circles
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I'm not suggesting the concept of the AIC is fringe, which is what that discussion was about. I'm talking about the connection between the AIC and the MIC being fringe. That one book has been written that does so is not evidence that it's a decently widely accepted concept. A good rule of thumb for
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I get your point well, and so with the climate example. But the addition isn't opposing the main idea to even call it a fringe but only bolstering it. Similarly, while those who disagree with climate change is opposing the mainstream view (climate change) for no reason other than propaganda (which
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A-IC is not solely about veganism but it’s a topic very similar to the M-IC and in fact is a progeny of the M-IC, similar to prison-industrial complex, entertainment-industrial complex, pharmaceutical industrial complex, etc. These need to have a mention in the article, maybe grouped in a separate
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It is the military-industrial complex that gave rise to several other industrial complexes. The A-IC also traces its coining to the M-IC. All these industrial complexes are the current applications of the M-IC. That said, AIC and other industrial complexes merits discussion within the MIC article.
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The term "military-industrial complex" is specific to the relationship between the defense contractors of the United States and the federal government of the United States. Other countries have very different relationships with their defense contractors and use different doctrines with their own
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Do you understand my point? It doesn't matter at all whether something is opposing a mainstream view or not. The only thing we need to consider when evaluating whether to include a viewpoint or not is how widespread it is. If there is only a tiny handful of proponents, then it is by definition a
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pharmaceutical-industrial complex, entertainment-industrial complex, prison-industrial complex, and so forth, rather than removing the sourced info on the military-animal-industrial complex. There is a wide scholarly coverage, wide enough to be included as an encyclopedic entry per
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Wonder why we are so particular about removing a well-sourced info. Given the fact that the M-IC is the base that gave rise to so many other industrial complexes, I feel we need to have brief mentions about those other complexes, too, such as the politico-media-industrial complex,
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Additionally, it's listed under "the third era" section, but the author's own source
William J Lynn III states that the third era began after 1993. (The End of the Military-Industrial Complex How the Pentagon Is Adapting to Globalization, available on the Foreign Affairs site)
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The "third era" section cites a single source from 1974 about the US economy being "now tied directly to.." and refers to attitudes "still prevalent the
American public'. Can a single article from a half century ago speak to our current reality and attitudes?
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Clearly the issue had been weighing heavily on his mind because he used his one and only farewell address to discuss it. The article should include a history of his thinking on the matter and what specifically inspired him to talk about it.
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The Dutch and
British East India companies have been compared to the military-industrial complex and I'm looking to get people's thoughts on this before adding it in. Although I can't find plenty of reference to this online, I found
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I don't know that there needs to be "wide acceptance" or consensus that the view is correct for us to include it, but it does need to have at least fairly significant acceptance. As an example from a field I'm active in,
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Thanks for creating the list. :) The current addition in the article is not simply about A-IC but how it is linked with the M-IC. Such descriptions are needed for all the related ones within the parent (M-IC) article.
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I believe Ike's farewell address originally referred to the "military–industrial–congressional complex" (MICC), but political pressure persuaded him to remove the word congressional as it inferred the financial side.
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Anyway, there is a link under "see also" section and to that "list of complexes", and it is already mentioned in content with other complexes and linked there in part of content according to Steven Best. That is
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I second that. There needs to be wide acceptance and consensus in the academical community and in different fields. We don't promote someone claims, arguing or advocacy. This is not a place for that.
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This is not
Veganisam article or about Vegnanism, see also link, as with the other complexes are enough. For e.g the Politico-media complex and the Prison–industrial complex.
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is. For us to be able to do so, we'd need to see that the connection between the AIC and MIC has gotten significant traction in the broader academic population.
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theories, and I've seen no evidence that point you're trying to insert into this article is one that is relatively widely held.
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movement on
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etc. Animal industrial complex has its own article and that eventually can be added under "see also" section.
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And, yes, we can reach consensus while the material is removed from the article. That is the basic point of
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The two topics have literally nothing to do with each other apart from a similar name. This article should
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The discussion about the "fringeness" of the concept has already been discussed in the main project page (
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After all, all the information are well-sourced. The discussion on the notability of A-IC can be found in
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That material can be sourced does not mean it needs to be in the article; there's the issue of what
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism § Improving the AIC article
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the content" and saying "we cannot reach consensus while the material is removed".
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And so far, all I've seen presented here is a single book. That isn't enough.
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discusses in detail about all these complexes and how they are intertwined.
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And I think there's a difference between saying "We cannot reach consensus
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I agree with the inclusion. The relevant debate on notability can be found
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Any objections before I pull that nonsense from the article?
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we give to different viewpoints. We should not be spreading
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This article has been checked against the following
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19:This is the
1445:Bueller 007
1406:79.70.4.39
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1137:93.86.99.45
1078:There is a
1048:as well. -
1001:93.86.99.45
930:93.86.99.45
402:Structure:
336:Start-class
277:Start‑class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1586:Categories
1543:Coolcaesar
1338:Clay Blair
273:Technology
1351:Parsecboy
1309:Parsecboy
1291:Parsecboy
1227:Parsecboy
1174:Parsecboy
1170:WP:FRINGE
1166:WP:WEIGHT
1024:Parsecboy
551:Economics
542:Economics
498:Economics
237:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1509:contribs
1402:unsigned
1277:WP:UNDUE
1262:Rasnaboy
1192:Rasnaboy
1152:Rasnaboy
1122:Rasnaboy
1103:Rasnaboy
964:Rasnaboy
905:PrimeBOT
893:Ttheiss4
846:Category
751:Politics
742:politics
692:Politics
640:Anti-war
631:anti-war
603:Anti-war
363:criteria
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1572:Asarlaí
1562:Western
1558:Russian
1528:WP:NPOV
1207:outside
1096:WP:NOTE
778:on the
667:on the
578:on the
239:C-class
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1524:WP:NOR
1421:Source
1346:U-boat
1223:WP:BRD
1044:&
245:scale.
126:Google
330:Start
226:This
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1560:and
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1473:talk
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1427:wolf
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883:and
162:FENS
136:news
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