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1074:. There is a 1943 film that is not at all significant to film history, but which as it happens is so named because it is about the adventures of a sailor aboard a minesweeper. There is also the windows game, which is probably well known, but not historically as significant as the ship whose work it invokes. The game is a few decades old, but minesweepers have been in use since about 1855 and are referenced as such in literature predating World War I. I respect that googling the word gets mostly hits for the video game, but that reflects the recent bias of the internet, but try googling the plural, minesweepers.
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a beaconing tag use to signal location and aid in subsequent neutralization. Mechanical sweeps, such as an oropesa (link) or paravane (link) sweep, maintain a desired depth and position relative to the ship depending on the type of mine and body of water. An emulation sweep, also called an influence sweep, is a device designed to replicate the conditions of a ship in transit across the effective path-range of an influence mine. The mine logic of influence ordnance detect and actuate on the mechanical and electromagnetic energies produced by a ship or submarine (
1919:, that are streamed from the sweeping vessel thus keeping the sweep at a determined depth and position. Some large warships were routinely equipped with paravane sweeps near the bows in case they inadvertently sailed into minefields—the mine would be deflected towards the paravane by the wire instead of towards the ship by its wake. More recently, heavy-lift helicopters have dragged minesweeping sleds, as in the 1991 Persian Gulf War."
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it's not the primary topic. When it comes to
Minesweeper, if I search the term, the video game article is the first Knowledge (XXG) hit, despite the fact that Knowledge (XXG) has the disambiguation page set as the primary. When the entrance point cannot be controlled, you can't say with much confidence that the number of page views is the result of more Wikipedians looking for the video game article as opposed to the ship article. --
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924:). The essential difference between the target (TEM/TSM) and mine setting (MSM) modes is that target mode is "designed to clear those mines that would be a threat to the emulated vessel class, regardless of mine sensitivity, settings, or logic", while mine setting is "designed to have improved performance against mines for which logic and sensitivities are known" (
1246:; most Google hits will be about the computer company, but the title goes to the topic having clear long-term historical significance, with a hatnote to the secondary topic. If this article was moved as proposed, with a hatnote linking to the computer game, readers and disambiguators would be in a much better situation than they are now. Obviously, I also
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1786:. Just because one thing is named after another does not make the original thing primary, and arguments about long term significance are not well founded because the game has been around for twenty years or more and has remained significant throughout that time; there is no indication that its significance will reduce drastically in future. —
1736:- the video game has been included with versions of Microsoft Windows for as long as I can remember, and for many (including me) this will be the primary connotation they have for the term. Personally I didn't even know there was a ship called a Minesweeper, though obviously I do now. This is a very clear case of no primary topic. —
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Minesweepers are equipped with either mechanical or emulation sweeps used to perform the function of mine detection or detonation. The type of sweep used is determine by the type of mine deployed. A mechanical sweep is a device designed to cut the anchoring cables of a moored contact mine, and attach
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To be honest, I kind of discount incoming links in this case due to the fact that many examples of minesweeper ships, most of which are notable, will link the term. The military history project has been very thorough in creating these articles, even just to a stub level, but even a stub will likely
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Emulation sweeps operate in two distinct modes. When an emulation sweep replicates a ship's signature it is considered to be sweeping in target emulation mode (TEM), also called target setting mode (TSM). This mode emulates the acoustic and seismic signatures, hydrodynamic (pressure) signals, static
1554:
It's a matter of opinion, but page views can be a misleading statistic as it seems to be in this case. If I google Apple, Apple Inc. shows up as the first hit for
Knowledge (XXG). Naturally, more people are going to visit that article more than the primary topic selected on Knowledge (XXG). Still,
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The minesweeper differs from a minehunter; the minehunter actively detects and neutralises individual mines. Minesweepers are in many cases complementary to minehunters, depending on the operation and the environment; a minesweeper is, in particular, better suited to clearing open-water areas with
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situation, with one meaning being variations on the theme of means of removing actual explosive mines, and the other being the computer game (the film is not significant enough to weigh in on the question). In terms of long term historical significance, the game is a flash in the pan, whereas the
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Conventional minesweepers are designed to tow a submersible glider, called a sweep, alongside or behind its hull to perform the process of mine detection or detonation. Modern mine-sweeping techniques use remote controlled sweeps that precede the vessel. To reduce the chances of detonation from
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The
Minesweeper game reached the height of its popularity in the late 90's. Sure, many people still remember it and may even still play some variant of the game today, but its significance is undoubtedly in decline. Long-term significance may be debatable, but it is also only one aspect. Having
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Speaking as someone unfamiliar with military armament, I wanted to draw the of the attention of the editors to a non-expert reading of this article. The
Operations and Equipment section is difficult to understand and would benefit from additional information and clarification of the information
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argument regarding the game would be a reason not to make the game the primary topic, but it doesn't contribute much to an argument that the ship is primary over all over uses. In the end, the important thing to ask is whether we would be leading a significant percentage of viewers astray by
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than any other topic associated with that term." Emphasis added. A class of vessels that has been very important in naval warfare for almost two centuries has greater enduring notability and educational value than a widespread but trivial computer game in the last couple of decades.
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Also, I find it interesting that even with Google (and other search engines) on its side, the
Minesweeper game article only gets 2-3 times more traffic on average. I would have expected that to be a lot higher if a significant majority were not interested in the ship article.
916:). The capability to optimize performance in this capacity is called operating in mine setting mode (MSM). However, since modern microprocessor-controlled mines "apply a number of logics and sensitivity settings simultaneously to the various magnetic-field vector components" (
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unintentional contact, the hull of the ship is often constructed using wood, glass-reinforced plastic (GRP) or non-ferrous metal. Additional precautions taken include degaussing to reduce the magnetic signature and soundproofing to reduce the acoustic signature of the ship (
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large numbers of mines. Both kinds of ships are collectively called mine countermeasure vessels (MCMV), a term also applied to a vessel that combines both roles. The first such ship was HMS Wilton, also the first warship to be constructed from glass-reinforced plastic.
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Regarding the first aspect, on raw quantitative usage, I see no sign that the video game is "much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined" of being the term sought than the ship, the film and the practice of de-mining.
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I see that modern minesweepers have a number of ways to avoid setting off a mine during a sweeping operation, but how did minesweepers during WWII, for example, not get sunk while moving through a minefield? I don't see what countermeasures would work against a
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Yes, "Apple" and "Battleship" have obvious reasons why they are exceptions to the rule. "Minesweeper (ship)" also has one. It has "long-term significance...greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term" per
771:, which might have a direcet dab-hatnote On the article. Traditionally demining was one of the functions of sappers and engineers. In certain wars (such as the present one in Afganistan), this has become something many soldier have had to learn to do.
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is a very similar situation, but with no film or game competing for the name. All references are to the work of the minesweeper in clearing harbors and bays. There is not really an article on naval minesweeping, but there is a strong section at
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of incoming links intended for the game, which suggests either that editors are not linking to the game at all, or that when they do, they correctly assume that it is not the primary topic of the term. I think what we have here is virtually a
1400:. The vessel is the primary usage, and the game is only derivative. And google hits are only a tool, nothing more. How many books have been written about the game? What's next (and perhaps I should not even mention it)-- change
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Minesweepers have been around for one hundred years or more and there is no indication that their significance will reduce drastically in future either. Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopaedia, not a compendium of pop culture. --
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a computer game; (2) sweeping for landmines. The concerns of the other contibutors can be adequately resolved by means of an "other uses" hatnote. Those who arrive at the ship article, which is certainly the
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a person who sweeps for mines is also very prominent, what with them being continuous employed in
Vietnam and Cambodia, and several other regions of the world with unexploded munitions in the ground.
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Can we start a section about the other purposes that minesweepers have been used for or are equipped for. For example, most/all? minesweepers carry some armament- a main gun and some machine guns-
1907:. Each run covers between 100 and 200 meters (330 and 660 ft), and the ships must move slowly in a straight line, making them vulnerable to enemy fire." "Minesweepers protect themselves with an
767:-- This is clearly the primary use, the others on the present dab page are clearly derivative. We do not have an article on men who sweep the ground for mines. That subject is covered by
714:, the ship type is the primary use of the term. Therefore the ship article should be housed at that title and the current use of the title should be at a dedicated disambigution page.
1487:– After hearing both sides, I have to support the proposal. We can't deny the change, simply because clicking a hatnote to the ship article is easy (the reverse is just as true). The
1066:. This is not surprising - looking at real world reference sources (books, news reports), the first and foremost meaning of that word, historically, is ships that clear naval mines.
920:), MSM would be used only when the specific mine settings are known, for example, against older mine types or if the minefield was a protective deployment laid by allied vessels (
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ships have been used for a century and a half, and will probably be used for as far into the future. On a side note, does anyone else think it's odd to have the game titled at
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1509:"Apple" is a common English word, with "Battleship" only somewhat less so. "Minesweeper", on the other hand, is common only in military circles. There's a big difference.
1148:; lots of evidence has been presented that the term is commonly used to refer to the ship, but no new evidence regarding the primacy of that usage has been presented. The
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magnetic and electric fields, or electromagnetic (alternating electric and magnetic) fields generated by a ship or submarine's hull, machinery, or electrical equipment (
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I visited this article to gain information on the specific techniques minesweepers use to clear mines. The article fails in this respect. I walk away still ignorant.
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1171:: I came into this as a reader looking for information about the naval activity of removing mines - looking from a historical perspective. Until the recent edits to
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a broad concept article on the talk page for user BD2412.) "Minesweeper (ship)" was totally clear to me as a reader, but a more prominent link to the section under
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912:). Emulation sweeps also have the ability to manipulate the signature produced for optimal performance against a particular mine sensitivity and logic setting (
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1344:? It is not what I think the average person would consider a "video game", and since there is no other kind of game by this name, perhaps it should be at
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argument that "no new evidence regarding the primacy of that usage has been presented", the nominator has presented very compelling new evidence, in that
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is already a pretty long article, mostly with coverage about actual kinds of naval mines, this section should be cut and copied to create an article at
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where the words "naval mine" are used, but there is not information about the subject at all. (There is some discussion about the request to make
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fulfills the essence of the request such that a second disambiguation page is not necessary. Contact me with any concerns. --
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disambiguation page was created without discussion, it can be disposed of as proposed without discussion. I will do so now.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
1234:. Right now 100% of people who search for "minesweeper" are guaranteed to land on the wrong page. However, contrary to
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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and more factually accurate by noting that the
Chinese had naval mines by at least the 14th century. Just a heads up!
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True, but not so much as to allow us to ignore the overwhelming expectations of readers, as evidenced by pageviews.
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would not be about ships constructed to do battle, but about games and films derivative of that concept.
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per Powers - The well-known video game would be a better contender for any proposed move. Try googling
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instead of a second minesweeper. These are torpedo-shaped towed bodies, similar in shape to a
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examples also demonstrate why the number of Google hits isn't always the defining factor. --
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provided. Below is a proposed rewrite. Please considering formatting and using this text:
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Hi, I think I'll edit this article to make it less
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Can we say anything useful about their sizes? Do they vary much? I believe they do.
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directing them to the ship article, and the answer to that is clearly "yes".
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1125:: The game gets enough Google hits that moving this would case confusion.
504:. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the
1947:"Paravane - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary"
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School example of a wp:primarytopic. Per the second major aspect of
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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will only need to make one further click to get to the dabpage.
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substantially greater enduring notability and educational value
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Yeah. I'd also support the moving of the video game article to
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would have been helpful, as that is the most informative. The
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Derivation is not a criterion for determining primary topic.
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Indeed, if we went by Google hits, the article at the title,
1719:. The ship is more historically significant than the game.--
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a year or two ago, and this is much more clear cut.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Where did you think the name of the game came from?
1208:(as on previous RM). The other uses seem to be (1)
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http://snet.elth.pub.ro/snet2004/Cd/camp/camp_P2.pdf
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This article has been checked against the following
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1375:. I'm surprised it's taken this long. One look at
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1447:- WP:PRIMARYTOPIC both on usage and significance.
1191:disambiguation page seemed entirely appropriate.
1966:Chinese had Naval Mines long before Crimean War…
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1476:
1430:
1356:
1302:
1270:
1254:and the action,
1193:ThoughtIdRetired
1114:
1111:
1103:
1102:
989:
977:Requested move 2
959:Strongly agree.
955:
933:
871:
665:
529:
522:
521:
518:
515:
512:
498:join the project
483:
476:
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106:Article policies
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1599:WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
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1377:What links here
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1472:
1470:The Bushranger
1459:
1442:
1441:
1440:
1404:to the game?
1395:
1373:Strong support
1370:
1369:
1368:
1367:
1366:
1325:
1324:
1313:
1312:
1240:incoming links
1232:Strong support
1229:
1206:Strong Support
1203:
1165:
1164:
1143:
1108:
1107:
1052:
1051:
1042:
1033:
993:
992:
980:
978:
975:
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880:
877:
875:
874:
864:requested move
858:
857:
832:
820:
796:Surprisingly,
794:
793:
792:
765:Strong support
762:
745:
744:
743:
708:
707:
698:
688:
669:
668:
658:requested move
652:
650:
649:Requested move
647:
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610:
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93:
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59:
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24:
14:
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10:
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1880:Contributions
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1481:
1477:
1475:One ping only
1471:
1467:
1463:
1460:
1458:
1454:
1450:
1449:In ictu oculi
1446:
1443:
1439:
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1216:
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1099:- WPGA2345 -
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397:criterion met
389:
386:criterion met
378:
375:criterion met
367:
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134:Find sources:
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121:Verifiability
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63:Learn to edit
60:
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37:
33:
29:
28:
19:
1969:
1951:. Retrieved
1941:
1933:
1921:Telecine Guy
1901:minesweepers
1898:
1891:This is in:
1863:
1859:contact mine
1855:
1841:
1838:
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1716:
1707:
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1607:send... over
1603:Peacemaker67
1594:
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1284:minesweeping
1282:Note: Since
1273:
1266:
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1260:minesweeping
1256:minesweeping
1255:
1252:minesweepers
1251:
1247:
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1181:Minesweeping
1173:minesweeping
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1155:Minesweepers
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1098:
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1091:Minesweeping
1078:Minesweeping
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1053:
1045:Minesweeping
1009:Minesweeping
1004:
1000:
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994:
986:
983:
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935:— Preceding
930:
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635:Telecine Guy
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220:WikiProjects
182:
176:
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133:
105:
30:This is the
1708:victor falk
1652:victor falk
1215:primary use
1189:minesweeper
1056:Minesweeper
1036:Minesweeper
1031:Minesweeper
839:minesweeper
701:Minesweeper
696:Minesweeper
617:IceDragon64
593:IceDragon64
552:IceDragon64
373:Structure:
307:Start-class
248:Start‑class
159:free images
42:not a forum
36:Minesweeper
1992:Categories
1953:2011-12-31
1934:References
1803:Necrothesp
1674:Necrothesp
1493:Battleship
1420:Battleship
1402:Battleship
1348:. Cheers!
1337:WP:TWODABS
1288:WP:TWODABS
1185:naval mine
1087:Naval mine
733:AerobicFox
1868:Septegram
1852:Survival?
1691:wp:ptopic
1150:recentism
1005:not moved
673:not moved
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
1913:paravane
1905:trawlers
1818:GoneIn60
1572:GoneIn60
1557:GoneIn60
1533:GoneIn60
1497:GoneIn60
1406:Kablammo
1381:corvette
1236:LtPowers
1177:demining
949:contribs
937:unsigned
847:GoneIn60
841:without
810:Station1
769:Demining
731:I agree.
677:Favonian
609:Numbers?
567:tugboats
334:criteria
244:Maritime
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1976:Jamutaq
1909:oropesa
1788:Amakuru
1738:Amakuru
1717:Support
1687:Support
1670:Support
1595:Support
1485:Support
1462:Support
1445:Support
1398:Support
1248:support
879:Clarity
716:Mjroots
210:C-class
165:WP refs
153:scholar
1784:Boston
1772:Boston
1755:bd2412
1734:Oppose
1547:Powers
1511:Powers
1427:bd2412
1353:bd2412
1319:Powers
1299:bd2412
1286:was a
1267:bd2412
1169:Oppose
1159:Powers
1146:Oppose
1138:(talk)
1123:Oppose
1003:, and
964:Asgrrr
835:Oppose
827:Powers
823:Oppose
787:Powers
748:Oppose
710:– Per
585:Sizes?
216:scale.
137:Google
1630:Slash
1489:Apple
1244:Apple
1001:moved
997:moved
511:Ships
469:Ships
301:Start
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
1980:talk
1925:talk
1874:Talk
1822:talk
1807:talk
1792:talk
1742:talk
1725:talk
1678:talk
1625:Red
1597:per
1576:talk
1561:talk
1537:talk
1531:. --
1501:talk
1491:and
1468:. -
1464:per
1453:talk
1410:talk
1389:talk
1385:Shem
1332:lack
1223:talk
1197:talk
1058:and
1017:talk
968:talk
945:talk
928:).
904:).
896:).
851:talk
843:ship
814:talk
777:talk
756:talk
737:talk
720:talk
681:talk
639:talk
630:See
621:talk
597:talk
575:talk
556:talk
494:Ship
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1911:or
1013:BDD
866:.
569:.
187:TWL
1994::
1982:)
1927:)
1824:)
1809:)
1794:)
1744:)
1727:)
1680:)
1622:.
1609:)
1601:.
1578:)
1570:--
1563:)
1539:)
1503:)
1455:)
1412:)
1391:)
1225:)
1199:)
1093:.
1070:,
1047:→
1038:→
1029:→
1019:)
999:,
970:)
951:)
947:•
853:)
816:)
779:)
758:)
739:)
722:)
703:→
694:→
683:)
675:.
660:.
641:)
623:)
599:)
577:)
558:)
423:/
242::
167:)
65:;
1978:(
1956:.
1923:(
1895::
1883:*
1877:*
1871:*
1865:*
1820:(
1805:(
1790:(
1762:T
1740:(
1723:(
1676:(
1605:(
1574:(
1559:(
1535:(
1499:(
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1408:(
1387:(
1360:T
1306:T
1274:T
1221:(
1195:(
1134:R
1131:N
1128:O
1110:☛
1015:(
966:(
943:(
849:(
812:(
775:(
754:(
735:(
718:(
679:(
637:(
619:(
595:(
573:(
554:(
508:.
313:.
279:.
222::
183:·
177:·
169:·
162:·
156:·
150:·
144:·
139:(
69:.
20:)
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
