Talk:Murder of Lee Rigby/Archive 5

2991:

the UK courts had so determined, in a case active in the judicial process, would most certainly have been contempt of court. This is nothing to do with political correctness. None of us are anarchists here and there is simply no need for you to continually and inappropriately beat the drum of free speech when we have clear policy restraints on what can be placed in our articles during the course of an active murder jury trial in the UK. Other jurisdications may have different considerations. Please let it drop now, we have the result that was fully anticipated and, generally speaking, hoped for.

3035:

with contempt of court over it? Nope, not one. But you expect me to believe that the characterization of his death as "murder" on Knowledge -- an international website started by an American and located and hosted in the US -- somehow falls afoul of the British Attorney General?! That's just comical. News to you: news articles on WP aren't under the jurisdiction of the particular nation in which the newsworthy incident took place. The Wiki on say, al-Qaeda can't be censored by the attorney general of Saudi Arabia. I also had to laugh at this: "

1454:, not "manslaughter" or "assault with GBH" or some other charge: because the courts have made a determination that the evidence clearly shows that Rigby was murdered; there is no ambiguity. Furthermore, the BBC, the Independent, the Guardian, the Telegraph and most other media outlets have consistently reported it as "murder" ; if they didn't have good reason to agree that Rigby was murdered, they would not be exposing themselves to potential charges of libel, if the two defendants are acquitted. The defendants simply deny that they are 2175:(that would be AndyTheGrump) is unfamiliar with what "sources" are. I've already cited the CPS (a source), the MPS (another source), the "official" media (a source), the independent media (a source) and a variety of WP articles including this one (sources, all). He seems to be oblivious to the fact that a person can (and often is) characterized as having been murdered, entirely unrelated to whether or not anyone has been convicted of their murder -- despite the countless sources I've quoted, including the Murder of 1784:. In most of these cases -- all of which are from within the past 15 or so years, no one has been charged with the murder, much less convicted. There were no witnesses, no confessions, and usually no weapon. Each of the killers is very likely still alive. And in each case, the WP article repeatedly describes the victims as having been "murdered". And yet with this one case, with suspects in custody, the weapons in custody, with multiple eyewitnesses, photographic and video evidence, essentially 31: 1969:...a non-ministerial department of the Government of the United Kingdom responsible for public prosecutions of people charged with criminal offences in England and Wales...The Crown Prosecution Service is responsible for criminal cases beyond the investigation, which is the role of the police. This involves giving advice to the police on charges to bring, being responsible for authorising all but a very few simple charges (such as begging)... 3642:" Editors CANNOT unilaterally delete other editors' work, especially without good cause. The proper protocol is to start a "talk" page discussion about the merits of the edit and to try to reach consensus. My additions were relevant and properly sourced. They will be re-reverted and I expect them to remain. If anyone vandalizes them again, I will apply for page protection and ask that the vandal be blocked. 1961:

investigators of Counter Terrorism Command since the killing of Drummer Lee Rigby on 22 May. Following the release of Michael Adebowale from hospital, we have authorised the police to charge him with the murder of Drummer Rigby...This man is now charged with serious criminal offences and he has the right to a fair trial. It is extremely important that nothing should be reported which could prejudice this trial.

3982:

possible to dig up a lunatic if you want to interview one, but it doesn't change the basic consensus about whether the attack was a good or a bad thing. It's the consensus that the lead of the article ought to reflect. The views of people like Anjem Choudary, the Westboro Baptist Church or David Icke don't really have a place in the lead sections of articles about significant contemporary events.

4072: 542: 3439:. Both men went down the well-trodden path of refusing to condemn the attack, and allowing other people to draw their own conclusions about what this actually meant. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that the attack was motivated by the presence of British troops in the Middle East, as this was what one of the attackers said was the motive in the rant video.-- 2199:. In the meantime: I defy AndyTheGrump and anyone else to explain how there can be cases here in WP where Britons are described explicitly as having been "murdered", even though no one has been convicted of their murder. Of course, they won't actually answer this, because it would mean admitting that their selective definitions were subjective. 2247:. If you can read English, you will notice this from their own press release: "The Crown Prosecution Service has authorised the Metropolitan Police Service to charge Michael Adebowale with the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby". Does it say "The Crown Prosecution Service has authorized the Metropolitan Police Service to charge Michael Adebowale with 1818:

comparable to the article under discussion. Here we have a legally active case, awaiting trial. WP is not in the business of pre-empting the imminent legal proceedings and as pointed out above and elsewhere, sub judice and with it, contempt of court, fully applies here. I have now examined your chequered talk page. I think you should check out

1043:. The only counter-arguments that spring to mind for me are (1) commonality with "unsolved killings that were obviously murders"; (2) the possibility of appeal or miscarriage of justice, and (3) the fact that some murders are more hideously and sickeningly barbaric than others. But they don't seem strong enough to prevent a move in this case. 2580:. If this wasn't about politically correct ideology, you (and others here) would be challenging, if not scrupulously excising, all mentions of "murder" from this very article, as well as other Wikis describing Britons having been murdered, despite no one having been convicted. Your silence on those cases is both deafening and telling. 1884:

oblivious to that distinction. Of course, you're the person who claimed "no conviction, no murder" as if that made the slightest sense; I've already cited many examples of Wikis on people who were determined to have been murdered, despite no suspect ever being convicted. Are you going to admit that you were mistaken? I doubt it.

3916:

websites in Nigeria or Australia for such material, and much of the other coverage seems shallow and more aimed at sensationalism than balance. This isn't an article about an obscure event, and with the plethora of coverage by mainstream media, resorting to such material is surely evidence that WP:WEIGHT is questionable.

1724:...was attacked. Two men ran him down with a car, then used knives and a cleaver to stab and hack him to death. The men dragged Rigby's body into the road. The men remained at the scene until police arrived. They told passers-by that they had killed a soldier to avenge the killing of Muslims by the British armed forces. 4365:

decided that the soldier is the most fair target because he joins the Army with kind of an understanding that your life is at risk. So we sat in wait and it just so happened that he was the soldier that was spotted first. Almost as if Allah had chosen him for some reason he chose to cross in front of our vehicle."

4468:

otherwise it;s hearsay. Alfietucker undid my work, pointing to the legal precedings section,which states they shouted the Phrase in court, with all due respect, that doesn't prove they shouted it while attacking Rigby.I do take the point that I shouldn't have removed references for other sentences earlier.

2063:

have offered nothing whatsoever to suggest the contrary beyond your repeated and entirely unsourced assertions. And Knowledge doesn't consider the assertions of random contributors as a reliable source. Ever. Go away and learn how the law actually works, and then maybe there will be something to discuss.

3963:. We do not have to quote specific individuals like Choudary, but we can still include, in the text, reliably sourced references to the placing of this attack in the context of wider political issues. And, as a global encyclopedia, we should absolutely give due weight to non-UK and non-US media like 4680:

You appear to be making a huge assumption/generalisation. This particular killing has been identified as murder due to the jury and process of law. That is not to say every killing by a black muslim is going to be termed "murder" in Knowledge - only in those cases where reliable sources agree that it

2758:

The page cannot be called murder of as long as the trial is on. Not only because of the already stated guideline rules but because the killers are claiming that it was a lawful killing as part of war. Now, it is unlikely they get to convince the court of this, but as long as they might Knowledge will

2677:

wrote "Just to reinforce the process in this trial with a resolved case." Of course, you're not really "reinforcing the process"; you're citing an outlier. Cases that result in a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity" are quite rare in the UK, making up a very small percentage of all capital

619:

Following this edit request, an e-mail was sent to the press office at Greenwich University asking about the latest position. The reply was that "The university's governing body, University Court, has commissioned an independent panel inquiry. Its work is ongoing" and "In May, the university issued a

3285:

He said this: "Whether you agree or disagree with what took place, you cannot predict the actions of one individual among a population of 60 million when the government is clearly at war in Muslim countries. I condemn those who have caused what has taken place on the streets of London, and I believe

2990:

in the UK until 19 December in the early afternoon, UTC. We don't have the First Amendment in British Law. Where "murder" was referred to in initial and prior versions it most certainly should not have been, unless it was an oblique reference. Arguing as you did that we could call this murder before

2731:

Just to shove in my 2p in here. The CPS as the body prosecuting on behalf of Her Maj. will given our adversarial justice system, naturally allege that a murder has been committed. If however their assertion that there has been a murder is accepted before any trail has concluded, then in my mind that

2505:

wrote "(Bricology's)...inability to appreciate the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty', 'trial by jury', 'sub judice'...demonstrates a rather disturbing, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude". Of course, beyond trying to put words in my mouth, Leaky_caldron has yet to grasp the fact that it's perfectly

2062:

I don't have to cite anything. You are completely and utterly mistaken in your understanding of elementary principles of law. The CPS doesn't determine that anyone has been murdered. Courts do. At the end of a Trial. If there are convictions for murder. These are the facts, plain and simple. And you

2022:

don't seem to get it: Rigby was murdered. The CPS determined this. See the citation above. Do you really believe that the CPS is going to charge someone with the crime of murder just because someone turns up dead? -or on a whim? Of course not! The CPS are quite capable of telling whether or not

1960:

The Crown Prosecution Service has authorised the Metropolitan Police Service to charge Michael Adebowale with the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby on 22 May in Woolwich, London. Sue Hemming, Head of the CPS Special Crime and Counter-Terrorism Division, said: 'Crown Prosecutors have been working with the

1626:

states the same, five times. Refresh my memory: was anyone convicted of their murders? I'll answer that for you: Nope. Apparently, in your mind, that means that it's just as likely that Goldman's and Nicole Brown Simpson's deaths were caused by...what -- accident? Self-defense? Natural causes?

118:

I didn't realise this was a game of "trumps". The picture of Rigby is a very good one and I personally have no problem with it as the main image. But generally articles of this type are indeed treated as events, rather than biography. And the map was a very good way of marking the event. It was also

4364:

at 2.10pm and was walking down Wellington Street towards the Barracks. The combination of these things seems to have convinced the attackers that Rigby was a soldier. Detectives believed that Rigby was chosen at random. Michael Adebolajo said "Whilst waiting to find a soldier, because between us we

2972:, exactly as I quoted them above. Those statements have been in this article for more than 6 months, without you or anyone else challenging them; they have never been edited out over those 6 months. I've pointed this out repeatedly but you just keep denying it and claiming they're not there. /SMH 2314:

and yet I don't see you or anyone else bothering to edit the word "murder" out of this article. Now, why is that? Perhaps it's because others understand that there's a fundamental difference between Rigby's death being the result of murder -- which has already been established -- and the question

1695:

causes, unlawful death, death by misadventure, the coroner has yet to return a verdict, and the inquest has been postponed indefinitely, so we cannot use anything other than "death". Other articles may be different, or not conforming to policy, that does not mean we should make this one not conform.

3230:

Both of these people gave rather weaselly worded refusals to condemn the attack, which is not the same thing as condoning, which means actively approving of something. They both gave British involvement in the Middle East as a reason for the attack, but it is inaccurate and a POV interpretation to

1299:

He seems to be suggesting an equivalence between his brother's actions and the actions of British soldiers. Strictly speaking, that's not a justification. It could be that he finds both abhorrent. I'd agree that's not the most obvious inference to draw, but we shouldn't be drawing any inference at

874:

you cannot just appeal because you were found guilty. points to appeal would be e.g. new evidence, judge misdirecting the jury, defendants not getting all the information, outside influence or an otherwise unfair trial. In this case it seems unlikely they will find cause to appeal, so it should be

4010:

Well, I was trying to address the question asked by the OP. Explaining the motivation of the crime is a separate issue. This is something we should, of course do, but we do require solid sourcing and we should be wary of op-ed speculation. Explaining fanatical violence in general terms is not for

3639:

An editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page—whether involving the same or different material—within a 24-hour period. An edit or a series of consecutive edits that undoes other editors' actions—whether in whole or in part—counts as a revert. Violations of the rule normally

3034:

on June 1, whose headline reads "The ideology behind Lee Rigby's murder". There are dozens more examples I could cite, from every major news media source in the UK. Have any of these, who have routinely and consistently characterized Rigby's death as "murder" for the past 7 months, been charged

779:

They have been convicted. Only sentencing remains - January. Any appeal would be against conviction or sentence. As of now they are guilty of murder. Moving the article is dependent on our policies in such cases, it does not need to wait for any other action related to the trial or the murderers.

4205:

In this ten minute news video (which is worth watching in full) a psychiatrist refers to the handwritten note at the eight minute mark as a potential suicide note attempting to justify his actions after he is dead, presumably after being shot by the police, which the attackers tried to engineer,

3915:

Exactly. Knowledge isn't a platform for radical Islam. Any coverage of this needs to be based on the best of sources, and placed in a wider context. Frankly, of the sources cited by Helwingia, there are few that I'd consider suitable. It looks to me like trawling for sources when one has to cite

1694:

wrt. e.g. the Whitechapel murders, they were 120 years ago, and there is no chance that the killer is still alive. In this case two suspects are in custody so it is important that wikipedia does not use words like murder in its article, look at the header at the top of the article. As to Natural

3981:

The question isn't about due weight between sources, though. It's about due weight with regards to information. To take a step back, clearly this was basically a brutal murder and, within the context of British society, you would have to be a lunatic not to condemn it unequivocally. It's always

2924:

were actually murdered, despite the titles of their Wikis claiming that they were. And John F. Kennedy wasn't murdered because, after all, Lee Harvey Oswald was never convicted of assassinating him. Well, you've got your work cut out for you: I expect you to go and change all of those article

1883:

case is any different from this one, other than the fact that Rigby's alleged assailants are in custody. The crux of the matter is that "Adam" and Lee Rigby were determined to have been murdered, NOT that anyone accused of the crime was convicted. I'm amazed by how many people here seem to be

895:

I agree that it would seem unlikely given what's been reported, however it is not for us to speculate about the correctness of the workings of the judicial system or any potential outcomes - we just write the facts without too much crystal ball gazing and at the moment and forever more there is

589:

says "The University of Greenwich has confirmed records show Mr Adebolajo was registered as a student between 2003 and 2005. It said his academic progress was "unsatisfactory" and he did not complete his studies there." (ie, not Adebowale). Numerous sources reported that Michael Adebowale was a

4653:

It seems quite biased, that terrorist killings committed by white christians aren't referred to as murder in the articles yet those committed by black muslims are, surely there should be consistency in how such politically motivated killings are referred? Or why is are IRA murderers treated as

2939:

I'm not the slightest bit interested in debating this with you. The article didn't refer to Rigby as being murdered prior to the suspects' conviction - per policy. With the convictions the title may be changed to 'murder' - per policy. There is nothing more that needs to be said on the matter.

2481:

may not have lost the plot, but I think his grasp on the plot interferes with his ability to comprehend the reality of the situation here. The inability to appreciate the concept of "innocent until proven guilty", "trial by jury", "sub judice", the process of determining evidence, the charging

2031:

murdered? Obviously! Was "it for the courts to decide whether 'Adam' was murdered"? No, it was for the CPS to decide, since no suspect has even been identified, much less brought to trial, much less convicted. TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES. Really. If no one is ever brought to justice for killing

156:

Hi, I'd like some feedback if possible on an a proposed paragraph for another article that relates to this topic. It concerns talk of a broadcast ban on proscribed organisations, and comparisons with the previous broadcast ban of the 1980s. Brief mention of the plans may also be needed in this

4467:

None of the three sources say witness claimed to hear them shout"Allau Akbar", The guardian one doesn't,The BBC says Whitehall said it, and the Telegraph cites the BBC Article. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if it did, there should be a reference that quotes a witness as having said so,

2598:

Given that Bricology has utterly failed to produce a single source for his bizarre assertion that the CPS is responsible for predetermining the results of a trial, I think we can safely treat this topic as closed, and consequently leave the title as it is - reflecting the legal situation (and

4400:

Thanks, pretty much what I thought, just still think its strange they chose him? They could have waited and a Soldier in uniform would have turned up, many walk along there all day? Just a bit strange I think, I wear HFH tops all the time and carry a bag, but still dont look like a soldier?

1817:

describes as "bullshit" my statement: "No conviction, no murder." I apologise for appearing patronising, that was not my intention. Because of the red-link to your username I assumed that you were a well-meaning but rather ill-informed novice. The examples you give in your screed are no way

1498:

Charged with murder does not determine a murder has happened. They could be found not guilty, they could be found guilty of manslaughter or even not guilty. The most the courts have so far decided is the coroners court deciding that Rigby is dead, and how he died, not the reasons behind his

2854:

Whether we are 'surprised' by the verdict or not is entirely irrelevant. Per policy, until the courts had determined that Rigby had indeed been murdered, Knowledge didn't state that he had. Since the courts have made such a determination, the new title is per policy - as was the old one.

2119:, which repeatedly describes Rigby as having been murdered (e.g., "...calls to its helpline concerning anti-Muslim incidents greatly increased after the murder..." and "...some of them explicitly against the murder of Rigby...") is wrong in having declared him to have been "murdered". 1679:

of the cases was anyone convicted; in many of the cases, no one was even charged! Please explain. And as for "I wish you would accept the stated position as stated by experienced editors" -- I've been an editor on WP since 2006, just like you, so you can drop the patronizing tone.

2519:

murder victims for whom the defendant was acquitted -- either rightly or wrongly. I've already cited too many examples to bother posting more. At this point, I just have to assume that Leaky_caldron and their ilk aren't really interested in these issues, but rather in defending a

2023:

a victim was murdered; the courts are not necessary to prove that. The medical examiner's finding, the eyewitness accounts, the manner of Rigby's death, etc., has demonstrated that he died as the result of murder. There is no doubt that he was murdered. End of story. That is a

1007:"Good point about a possible appeal, however if the media are currently allowed to refer to it as a murder and the defendants as murderers, then as that is factually correct at the current point in time I suggest we should too and then change it if the conviction(s) are quashed." 301:

I don't think it was, or has been, described unequivocally as "an Islamic terrorist attack" by all the sources quoted? So, even of you think "it was clearly an act of terrorism", and even if we can agree that the killers were followers of Islam, to describe so here would be POV?

826:

Good point about a possible appeal, however if the media are currently allowed to refer to it as a murder and the defendants as murderers, then as that is factually correct at the current point in time I suggest we should too and then change it if the conviction(s) are quashed.

97:

Should the picture of Rigby be the main image? I'm not so sure. Some time ago I got told off by someone quite high up here for doing something similar in a "Death of" article, which I was reminded was not a biography. Having said that, an article I worked on and took to FAC,

2542:

Still no source. Still the same old nonsense. Still nobody agrees with Bricology's bizarre interpretations of the British legal system. And now we are told that not believing this clueless waffle is due to "ideological rather than logical or legal concern"? Yeah right...

1362:, there would be nothing noteworthy about it; 45,000 people die every day. What makes Rigby's case notable is that he was brutally murdered, and for specific reasons. In the interest of greater accuracy, I propose that the title be changed to "The murder of Lee Rigby". 569:

Greenwich University has NO record of Michael Adebowale as having ever been a student. The University has made this very clear several times; it was reported in error by several newspapers. Please remove the statement that Adebowale attended the University. Thank you.

4201:

It fits in with the pattern of the two attackers trying to milk the attack for its publicity value. This is something that they seem to have considered beforehand. The references to the Koran in the note are similar to the justification that Adebolajo gives in the rant

2524:, that will not change Rigby's status of being a murder victim. The proof of this being an ideological rather than logical or legal concern is supported by the fact that all over WP are articles on British murder victims whose killers have never been identified; even 2309:

or whatever), does that mean that Rigby was not murdered? If he was not murdered, then what was the cause of his death? -misadventure? -suicide? The CPS, the MPS and other agencies have characterized his death as "murder", and the media has reported it as such.

249:

Are you telling me we can include "verbal abuse to physical assaults in which women's headscarves were pulled off" and "At least seven people have been arrested for a range of social media-related issues" for non-islamic individuals, but not add anything about the

810:

If there is an appeal, and if it succeeds, for one or both defendants, the article could be amended accordingly. These men are currently guilty of murder. If wikipedia policy allows, this fact should be reflected in both the title and the content of the article.

1748:) states "A person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law." That policy is in no way being infringed upon by characterizing Rigby as having been murdered. It has been established that he was murdered; what 4623:

is the relevant policy here. Knowledge reports what reliable secondary sources have said, and does not offer personal opinions about what constitutes a fair trial. What is being requested here goes against virtually all of the mainstream media coverage of the

2968:. REALLY. Here is a link to the very first version of this article . Hit control+f to activate "find" in your browser, and input the word "murder" into the text box. Skip down to the 4th and 5th found instances of the word. You will see that two phrases 4112: 4104: 2568:. I cited the CPS' own statement about charging the suspects with murder, as well as citing countless WP sources of similar cases in which victims were characterized as "murdered" despite there not being a conviction. News to you: those are sources. " 133:

There was absolutely no reason for the map to be removed. I agree with both of you that the article is about an event, not an individual. Both the map and the photo should be in the article, but in my view it is the map that should be in the infobox.

1726:" And yet you object to the characterization of that as "murder"?! If you object to the case being characterized thus, why aren't you also arguing that phrases already used in the article should be changed to more "neutral" ones like Rigby was 1874:

in which a boy was murdered in 2001 and his torso dumped in the Thames. His killer has never been caught. Does this mean that "Adam" was not murdered? Of course not! And his Wiki (edited, one presumes, by Britons) clearly states that he was

3860:. These guys clearly had some support from influential and notable people, so saying "The attack was condemned by political and Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom and in the worldwide press." at the start of the article makes it unbalanced.-- 3683:

isn't "unilaterally deleting other editors' work" - I'm deleting it as well if it isn't supported by any sources. Similarly, the thread opened by Ian, which includes Anjem Choudary, has been open since 09.09, but you have chosen to make no

2759:

be libel if it is called murder. All instances of that word should be removed from the article. When the killers, and they have admitted to be the killers, are convicted the headline should be changed and the killers named and shamed! --

4234:

Whilst the above IP editor may have a case and it may well be that this should be mentioned in the article, I would just like to point out (hopefully in a manner of some gentility) that this is something for the community to decide by

3371:

like "actively approving of" my death.) Clearly, Choudary at the very least condoned the murder when he blamed it on "British foreign policy", which implies that political policies in a country inevitably or naturally lead to murder.

2435:

were determined to have been murdered. That's a separate issue from whether or not anyone was charged, much less convicted, of the crimes. Those of you who insist otherwise -- you've got your work cut out for you here. Get editing.

2296:

wrote "You seem unable to distinguish between charges (CPS) and accusations (media) of murder, and the court's legal finding of murder." It's not my inability to distinguish between them that's at fault here, it's others' belief that

285:

I think the opening paragraph is phrased wrong. Should the part that say's "in what has been described as an Islamic terrorist attack." be "in an Islamic terrorist attack."? There's no need to sugar coat it...It was clearly an act of

2221:

there are six criteria for murder, including "the crime of murder is committed where a person of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane) ... ". Should the court determine that the defendants were insane, then murder was not committed.

3305:. It should be mentioned later on that both of them refused to condemn the attack. We all know that Anjem Choudary is a hate figure for the tabloid press, but he should not be made into a key player in this article when he is not.-- 1260:, Jeremiah Adebolajo stops short of condoning the murder (or condemning it), so he should not be stated or implied to have done this. He does give reasons why he believed the attack took place, which could be given in the article.-- 3874:

Those seem to be perfectly good sources. The lead section of the article should not include anything that isn't included in the main body. So I'd suggest, as a first step, might be to add a new sub-section on "other reactions"?

2305:. There's the CPS' determination that Rigby was murdered, and then there's the results of the trial. Answer two simple questions: if the defendants are all acquitted (let's say because they have a jury that's sympathetic to 479:

Fusilier Rigby was widely referred to as Drummer Rigby after his death. I believe this is a title by which he was known while playing in an Army band during his time as a recruiter at the Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich.

4372:

is that the attackers made a split-second decision to ram into Rigby while he was crossing the road to get to a shop. There is no evidence that he was targeted for any reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong

3204: 594:

into whether both men had been associated with the university at some point. This source does not say specifically that Adebowale did not attend the university. Please could someone help with finding a source stating this

2520:

politically-correct notion of it being "unfair" to state the obvious: that it is incontrovertible that Rigby was murdered. Whether or not anyone will ever be convicted of his murder is, for these purposes, irrelevant.

1564:

wrote "It is standard practice, particularly with UK court cases, not to use the word 'murder' in the article title unless a conviction for murder has been obtained." Rubbish. Two WP articles immediately come to mind:

102:

does have an image of the subject in the infobox without issue. I did ask the person concerned for clarification at the time, but didn't get an answer. Consequently I now view such additions with caution. Any thoughts?

3407:...we could see that (Michael Adebolajo) was being very courageous. Under Islam this can be justified. He was not targeting civilians. He was taking on a military man in an operation. To people around here he is a hero 3388:

these alleged "key players" quoted in the sources for the claim? Many of them are unknown to the British and to the world at large, such as one Sergey Frolov of a minor Russian newspaper called "Trud". Others, like

396:

in 2011, but there were isolated incidents of abuse, attacks on mosques etc. The article needs to reflect this. Figures given by pressure groups need to be treated with some caution as they have been questioned.--

3559: 1859:. You're conflating two very different legal principles. One is the principle of a person's death being the result of homicide, which is determined independently of any court case to try to determine guilt. 2514:

anyone ever being charged with the murder. That explains why there are countless murder victims listed here on WP for whom no one has ever been convicted or even charged, as well as why there are countless

427:

There has been an addition of the words "alleged" and "suspected" to the article which is rather clumsy. The basic facts of what happened are not in dispute, and the wording should not give this impression.

2151:

The CPS does not determine that there has been a murder, they determine that there is enough evidence for someone to be sent to trial, in order for the courts to decide whether a murder in fact took place.

1413:

Rigby's inquest has not yet completed. In the interests of justice, wikipedia should not speculate, especially in any way that could affect the outcome of any future trial, or be seen to influence trials.

3954:

I think there is a sense in which the opening paragraphs summarise the incident as a relatively simple murder, when, in fact, many reliable sources are taking a somewhat wider perspective. For example,

2656:

Just to reinforce the process in this trial with a resolved case. Tianhui Zhan killed Michael Davis in the UK with a knife (sound familiar)? The CPS charged Zhan with murder. The court found he was

1519:

This has been debated before. It is standard practice, particularly with UK court cases, not to use the word "murder" in the article title unless a conviction for murder has been obtained. See also

3421:

why it belongs in the lede. Finally, nearly every media source on earth prominently quoted Jeremy Adebolajo's condoning of his brother's act. That needs to be given appropriate coverage and weight.

4270: 1752:

yet been established is whether or not the two men accused of the crime are guilty of committing it. You really can't see the difference between those two points? The reality is that just about

1738:

As to Natural causes, unlawful death, death by misadventure, the coroner has yet to return a verdict, and the inquest has been postponed indefinitely, so we cannot use anything other than 'death'.

2744:" from Routledge recite the definition of murder as thus: "the unlawful killing of a human being in the Queen's peace, with malice aforethought" which I believe is the common law definition. -- 2892:, and yet neither you nor anyone else in the PC echo chamber bothered to challenge those mentions. To wit: under the heading "Anti-Muslim response", it has already read, for many months now, " 4574:

By the british state? does wikipedia now follow the definition given by state governments? because the IRA articles will need to be heavily changed then. Also the title of the Derry article.

1026:. I don't think it actually matters all that much. It's never really been in doubt that this was a murder, so I think it is, if anything, over-cautious to have kept it at "death" for so long. 3961:"It does not in any way lessen the seriousness of the crime to suggest that Mr Rigby was also an indirect casualty of the events set in train by the attack on New York in September 2001...." 3367:" To be "actively approving of" something is not the same as to "accept" or "allow" something. (For example, I accept the fact that I will die one day, and will allow it to happen; that is 1484:

murder" is not a legal term. And has been explained, Knowledge policy is not to use 'murder' in article titles while the courts have not ruled that a murder took place. Which they haven't.

1888:

There's nothing "chequered" about my Talk page. Every section in it simply demonstrates my smack-down of fools, whom I do not gladly suffer. If you think that makes it chequered, tough.

3205:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2334560/The-ideology-Lee-Rigbys-murder-profound-dangerous-Why-dont-admit--Tony-Blair-launches-brave-assault-Muslim-extremism-Woolwich-attack.html

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Until the (British) government admits there is a direct link between this radicalisation happening and their foreign policy, how are we ever going to end this? There’s two culprits here

265:

I must admit I am also a little surprised this is not thought notable, given the weight now very verbally attached by the government to the legal implications of social media postings.

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theoretically a chance of new evidence pointing in the direction of time travelling aliens from another dimension genitally altered to look like the defendants acting on behalf of the

3393:

are certainly less well-known than Anjem Choudary. To allow the lede to give the impression that there is anything like global unanimity in condemning Rigby's murder is disingenuous.

486:

I am a chief sub-editor with a UK news organisation and spoke to the Ministry of Defence about this issue. A press officer confirmed this is how his family now want him to be titled.

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Michael (Adebolajo) was a Muslim soldier and he was fighting a Christian soldier...Britain is at war. It has started a war against Islam and Michael was being a good Muslim soldier.

3843:

and "The people were so happy about what Michael did. They carry attack against the British soldiers in the British soil. And we were so proud. He used to be one of my students.’"

3736:. They state that he refused to condemn the murder - which he did. It would violate WP:BLP policy to apply our own interpretation of Choudary's words here, which isn't an option. 3560:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330094/Woolwich-attack-God-destined-soldier-die-Radical-preacher-banned-UK-applauds-attack-police-urged-investigate-inciting-hatred.html

3633:, to WP's policy that states "Provide a valid and informative explanation including, if possible, a link to the Knowledge principle you believe justifies the reversion" and to 3182: 4487:

This is based on early reports from the scene which may be confused. In the famous rant video, Adebolajo does not say "Allahu Akbar", but he does say "By Allah" several times.

2301:; it's a false dilemma fallacy. One exists independently of the other. No one is trying to deprive the defendants of their right to a fair trial or to prejudge their guilt; 3844: 2113:, and just about every other privately-owned newspaper in Britain, is wrong in having declared Rigby to have been "murdered" (thus opening themselves up to libel lawsuits). 2102:-- which "operates under Royal Charter to provide impartial public service broadcasting in the United Kingdom" -- is wrong in having declared Rigby to have been "murdered". 2413:

UK murder different? Clearly, it's not because those accused have yet to come to trial; that didn't prevent the other murder victims from being described as such. Well?

1973:

that the defendants deserve an unprejudiced trial, refuting the notion that the trial is required to run its course before Rigby could be described as having been murdered

1718:

wrote "In this case two suspects are in custody so it is important that wikipedia does not use words like murder in its article..." I've never seen such prevarication!

2405:

listed in their respective Wikis as having been murder victims. No reasonable person disputes that they were murdered. And those three are just a few out of dozens of

2880:(or anywhere else on WP), or (b) there was any semblance of consistency to your claim. But as I've repeatedly pointed out, there are countless Wikis on people who are 358:"120 of its 212 “anti-Muslim incidents” – 57 per cent – took place only online." "Not all the offending tweets and postings, it turns out, even originated in Britain." 3831:

Anjem Choudary and Jeremiah Adebolajo did not condemn it, others have also shown sympathy or support of the killing. In Kenya, the killer of Rigby is considered a hero

3465:

refused to condemn this murder could have their own subsection, with quotes and sources as appropriate. (The Choudary interview was the subject of a question on BBC's

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of the Wikis on unsolved murders of the past dozen or so years, repeatedly and explicitly refer to the deaths as "murders". Nicole Brown Simpson, Ronald Goldman,

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of that murder, not that it didn't occur. Whether or not they are eventually proved guilty is an entirely different issue than the courts determining that Rigby

236: 1971:" So there you have it: the highest criminal authority in Britain (i.e., the State) has not only stated unequivocally that Lee Rigby was indeed murdered, but 3858: 3411:

God destined for him to carry out the attack and God destined for the British soldier to die for the cause he believed in. Muslims in Lebanon are proud of it

432:

obviously applies here, but it would be wrong to imply that the facts of what happened, or the identity of the two men in the video footage, is in dispute.--

368:"Fewer than one in 12 of the 212 “incidents” reported to Tell Mama since Woolwich – 17 cases (8 per cent) – involved individuals being physically targeted." 350:

The "anti-Muslim backlash occurred across the United Kingdom" relies on third-party sources which are using an unreliable and bias source for their claims.

3850: 1651:." Please explain how it's possible to have "unsolved murders" if one were to take seriously your claim of "no conviction, no murder"? -or how about the 4265:

The attacker wrote the note beforehand, and gave it to a passing bystander, so should be mentioned in the article. There is no shortage of sources either

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would actually be a useful bit of "reinforcing the process". No, I suspect that I'll be listening to crickets for a long while before any of you address

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process, the independence of the English & Welsh prosecuting authority etc., despite the evidence presented here, demonstrates a rather disturbing,

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This has been discussed previously, and he was generally referred to as Drummer Lee Rigby in media reports after his death, including his MOD obituary.

3967:

and sources in Nigeria - we shouldn't automatically assume that sources in our own countries are necessarily "the best", or indeed the most neutral.

3788: 3359:'s definition of "condone" as "actively approving of something" is incorrect. According to the Cambridge Dictionary, to condone is nothing more than " 2660:. Hence, no murder took place as the vital criterion ("sound mind and discretion") was absent. Davis was not murdered, he was the victim of homicide. 1618:

wrote "No conviction, no murder." Sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Try looking at the two examples I've already cited here on WP. The WP entry on

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How did they know he was a serving solider? He was wearing a HFH top, could have been anyone? Can anyone show me the link to how they knew please? (

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wrote "It may surprise you to learn that it is for the courts to decide whether Rigby was murdered. The verdict comes after the trial, not before."

1439:

walking along Wellington Street when he was attacked. Two men ran him down with a car, then used knives and a cleaver to stab and hack him to death.

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In October 2013 British anti-terrorist police warned several Muslims who had spoken out against Islamist extremism, some of them explicitly against

1585:, was found not guilty. It has never been the standard to only refer to a victim as having been "murdered" if their accused killer was convicted. 3382:

We all know that Anjem Choudary is a hate figure for the tabloid press, but he should not be made into a key player in this article when he is not

483:

However, following the start of the trial, he should now be referred to by his proper rank, which was Fusilier (the RRF's equivalent of Private).

3248: 4432:. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the section, but some of the figures for hate crimes produced by pressure groups were challenged.-- 1853:

The examples you give in your screed are no way comparable to the article under discussion. Here we have a legally active case, awaiting trial.

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It may surprise you to learn that it is for the courts to decide whether Rigby was murdered. The verdict comes after the trial, not before...

1300:

all. I'd also say we need to take BLP caution here, because he is not speaking in the cold light of day and how important is his view anyway?

3183:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10093568/The-truth-about-the-wave-of-attacks-on-Muslims-after-Woolwich-murder.html

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attacked" or advocating for striking the suspects' quotations as being hearsay? After all, it has yet to be proved in court that they said "

2831:: now that the conviction has been returned for "guilty of murder" (to no one's surprise), the title of the article must now be changed to " 3630: 2760: 678: 157:

article. My chief concern is getting the language right against the backdrop of the ongoing legal proceedings. I've opened a discussion at

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A representative of Hope not Hate said the number of phone calls to its helpline concerning anti-Muslim incidents greatly increased after

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rules and living people who have been charged but not convicted. The current article title is not going to be changed against consensus.--

943:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

700:. He is not a major player in this article, although Michael Adebolajo said in court that he had attended demonstrations involving him.-- 240: 4357: 3037:

Where 'murder' was referred to in initial and prior versions it most certainly should not have been, unless it was an oblique reference.

2528:

described Rigby as a murder victim, but Leaky_caldron and their ilk are conspicuously absent from attempting to "correct those errors".

2032:"Adam", does that mean that he wasn't actually murdered? Please. There is zero doubt that the victims of the Whitechapel Murders were 4661: 4581: 4536: 4120: 3706:

to Anjem Choudary and Jeremiah Adebolajo, who are not representative of the vast majority of reactions to the murder. Nor did I break

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And now we are told that not believing this clueless waffle is due to 'ideological rather than logical or legal concern'? Yeah right.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/woolwich-murder-with-universal-condemnation-comes-the-need-for-wise-action-8636145.html

3621:." Anjem Choudary is, by any estimation, a "political and Muslim leader", so his contrary opinion is significant. Nevertheless, 3014:", given the fact that every major media outlet in the UK has routinely referred to it as "murder" for the past 7 months. Here's 1257: 1237: 4366: 3138: 2279:

You seem unable to distinguish between charges (CPS) and accusations (media) of murder, and the court's legal finding of murder.

2088:-- the Government's own branch that determines the nature of crimes -- is wrong in having declared Rigby to have been "murdered". 3617:...Was Lee Rigby a violent individual? Are other British soldiers, who go to Afghanistan and Iraq and kill, violent individuals? 3128:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10076791/Soldier-murdered-in-Woolwich-named-as-Drummer-Lee-Rigby.html

4490:

Both men were removed from the court during the sentencing after shouting "Allahu akbar" and fighting with the security guards.

3010:: no one (certainly not me) ever even mentioned the First Amendment in this thread. I don't for a moment buy your claim that " 1433:

That's nothing more than sophistry. No one doubts that Rigby was murdered. The article itself clearly states that Rigby was "

901: 3777: 2431:. How can there be "unsolved murders in the UK", if no one has already been convicted of their murders? Simple: because the 2040:

to do with whether or not anyone was ever convicted of their murder. Tell you what: since you seem to be adamant about Rigby

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to call (Rigby's death) 'murder' before the UK courts had so determined...would most certainly have been contempt of court

2128:

Every one of the hundreds of British cases with their own WP articles wherein the cases are described as "murders" (e.g.,

1870:

Nor is WP in the business of giving cover to politically-correct prevarication or weasel words. I draw your attention to

1788:, having been charged by the State with murder and repeatedly referred to in the media as "murder" -- you want to declare 1060:

per policy. The courts have determined that Rigby was murdered. That is quite sufficient grounds for Knowledge to say so.

392:

Most of the section is OK and based on what reliable sources said. There was no huge wave of riots, as occurred after the

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wrote "The article didn't refer to Rigby as being murdered prior to the suspects' conviction..." Have you even actually

2044:

having been determined to have been murdered, suppose you cite for me the statute in British law that says that a victim

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would constitute at least partial summary justice and dispense with the need for any trail to establish anything beyond

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I also agree - there is no good reason to include those views in the lead, let alone to summarise them inaccurately.

2876:" Which is, of course, complete bullshit. You might have an argument if (a) that was an explicitly stated policy in 2092: 1927: 1742:

Other articles may be different, or not conforming to policy, that does not mean we should make this one not conform."

979:– More suitable name following court conviction. Article cannot be moved at the moment due to previous page existing. 119:

a good image in its own right and I think was a useful addition to the article. I don't see why it should be removed.

3679:

I opened the thread above on Jeremiah Adebolajo at 19:41 on 19 December 2013, to which you have yet to contribute.

2874:

Per policy, until the courts had determined that Rigby had indeed been murdered, Knowledge didn't state that he had.

2450:

A coroner's verdict of unlawful killing is a legal determination that includes murder. Not applicable in this case.

3930:

Yes, some sources might be less than ideal. But sky.com is rather ubiquitous, and we might expect such material at

3789:

http://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/2013/12/woolwich-murderers-convicted-british-court-2013121714198213364.html

38: 2195:. He keeps hoping that these will go away, but they won't. People are murdered without anyone being convicted. 2085: 1964: 1082: 934: 770: 733: 166: 108: 4356:

says that he has wearing a Help for Heroes top, and and carrying an Army day sack, both of which can be seen in

624:". This does not confirm the position that Greenwich University denied that Adebowale attended the university.-- 4609: 4361: 4147: 3945: 3880: 3835: 3689: 3570: 3476: 3332: 3276: 2801: 2787: 2483: 2394: 2180: 1377:

Per Knowledge policy, until a court of law finds that Rigby was murdered, the title will remain 'Death of...'.

1337: 1323: 1290: 1246: 1048: 897: 816: 307: 270: 124: 47: 17: 3832: 2764: 2257:. There are countless cases of murder in which no one has ever been charged, much less convicted. That does 2240: 2218: 4428:

This section has had an unresolved NPOV tag for a long time, which is not ideal. It was previously discussed

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and added this to the article, because it is worth a brief mention, but without going into too much detail.--

1863:

The other principle is whether or not those charged with that murder are guilty of murder or anything less.

4078: 3526: 2997: 2779: 2492: 2456: 1828: 1777: 1773: 1628: 1605: 872: 786: 575: 548: 99: 3263: 2095:--charged with enforcing the laws of the land -- is wrong in having declared Rigby to have been "murdered". 796:

In theory, they could appeal at any time in the future. A UK conviction is never definitive in that sense.

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I think this article should be renamed the killing of Lee Rigby as murder is a loaded term and not NPOV.

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The attack was condemned by political and Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom and in the worldwide press.

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could be characterized by the CPS, MPS, media, etc., as "murdered" in the many cases where there has been

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Furthermore, every unsolved murder is actually not a murder, because no one has been tried for the crime.

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It appears from media reports that his British Army rank was Private, although I am not an expert here.--

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No conviction, no murder. I wish you would accept the stated position as stated by experienced editors.

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at the scene of the crime. You’ll notice the references at the end of the note to verses in the Koran.

1740:" The autopsy has already declared that Rigby's death was caused by "multiple cut and stab wounds". " 1233:

programme, defending the murder. As his brother, is he worthy of separate mention in the article? e.g.

743:

I thought about this but held off, because they may appeal, but won't object if the article is moved.--

3417:". "Not the same as 'condoning'"? You're right -- it's more like praising, justifying and advocating. 2389:

wrote "This is a UK article, not about a US scenario..." Nice try, but nope. Consider The Murder of

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Clearly, I've wasted more than enough time on you and your self-declared expertise regarding the law.

4657: 4577: 4532: 2909: 2398: 2188: 2184: 2129: 2028: 1871: 1623: 1566: 1358:

There's something that smacks of prevarication in the title of the article. If Lee Rigby had merely

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Are there secondary reliable sources which suggest that the note is of any particular significance?

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is still open. The state has not decided that Lee Rigby was murdered or otherwise unlawfully killed.

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also gives more prominence to Anjem Choudary and Michael Adebolajo's brother than they deserve per

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in that WP article!) ALL of these WP articles explicitly refer to the deaths as "murders", and in

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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/24/muslim-cleric-god-destined-british-soldier-to-die/

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Yet again, no source. No matter how may times you repeat the same nonsense, it is still nonsense.

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and demanding something goes against the guideline of civility which can be found out about here

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http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/05/woolwich-murder-trial-lee-rigby-target-adebolajo

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law, one of which is apparently "anticipating the course of a trial or predicting the outcome"

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totally different issue than whether or not he was murdered by the defendants presently charged

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becomes involved. The article should reflect what the sources say rather than editorialising.--

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http://blog.cps.gov.uk/2013/05/michael-adebowale-charged-with-murdering-drummer-lee-rigby.html

2954: 2941: 2869: 2856: 2816: 2607: 2557: 2544: 2386: 2168: 2155: 2078: 2064: 2003: 1990: 1955: 1911: 1886:"I have now examined your chequered talk page...If you also think that is patronising, tough." 1765: 1732:...that they had killed a soldier to avenge the killing of Muslims by the British armed forces 1545: 1485: 1378: 1301: 1135: 1061: 291: 177: 4682: 3890: 1819: 1186: 1169: 1118: 685: 378: 251: 225: 4690: 4669: 4641: 4613: 4589: 4564: 4544: 4510: 4477: 4449: 4410: 4390: 4342: 4314: 4283: 4255: 4227: 4196: 4180: 4151: 4128: 4020: 4005: 3991: 3976: 3949: 3925: 3910: 3884: 3869: 3778:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-britain-killing-choudary-idUSBRE94M0OZ20130523

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I didn't think of that, but it's probably best to leave it for now in case they do appeal.

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student at Greenwich University, but sources do sometimes get things wrong. The University

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this very article has explicitly described Rigby as a "murder victim" since it was created

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is pretty solid though. I quite agree we should not be using Facebook pages as a source.

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All of this is true, but the fringe chorus of radical Islamic voices should not be given

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of guilt of the defendants presently charged, which can only be established by trial.

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http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/28/woolwich-murder-200-islamophobic-incidences

2355: 1400: 1305: 1285:(Adebolojo clip starts at 40:00). Perhaps "justifies" would be a fairer description. 1027: 797: 135: 3625:

immediately reverted my edit. Perhaps he's unaware that doing so is a violation of

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2013 - Michael Adebowale in this section

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I have already said that this should be mentioned in the article, but not in the

3413:" Influential Muslim leader Makaburi (AKA Abubaker Shariff Ahmed) told Sky News " 1792:

case less deserving of being described on WP as a "murder"? That beggars belief.

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I want that this note and the relevant Koran verses are inserted in the article.

3615:", and Michael Adebolajo's brother, Jeremiah Adebolajo, who rhetorically asked " 1582: 1318:

Transcripts (and Knowledge entries) don't really convey tone of voice, do they.

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Re: 84.92.56.128, any possible appeal would have to be based upon a point of law

681: 363:"35 of the 212 post-Woolwich incidents, or 16 per cent, had yet to be verified." 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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a few minutes ago, it says that the page already exists, it is a redirect page

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on Dec. 5, saying "In the wake of Drummer Lee Rigby’s murder...". Here's the

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Death_of_Lee_Rigby&oldid=557542935

2253:

the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby." According to the CPS, Rigby's murder is a

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http://news.sky.com/story/1184837/woolwich-murder-muslim-leader-warns-of-war

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the article before adamantly claiming that it didn't say Rigby was murdered.

3015: 2674: 2661: 2293: 2280: 2236: 2223: 2132:) are not really murders, because there has been no conviction. Got it. /RME 1868:"WP is not in the business of pre-empting the imminent legal proceedings..." 1283: 1152: 957: 460: 3629:, but I bring to his (and anyone else who doesn't understand WP policy) to 2796:

Ah, yes, it is now, it seems. Even if any appeal were to succeed, I guess.

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can't be determined to have been murdered, irrespective of suspect or trial

1865:

No one is disputing that this element of the case has yet to be determined.

1855:" That legal status in no way changes the determination of the State that 1227:

Michael Adebolajo's brother Jeremiah was featured on today's BBC Radio 4's

3811:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Three-revert_rule#The_three-revert_rule

3732:

Knowledge cannot state that Anjem Choudary 'condoned' the murder, because

3597:" This assertion gives the inaccurate impression that Rigby's murder was 4352:

OK, so they could have killed a person who was not a soldier by mistake.

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http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/condone?q=condone

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Quite agree (.. although not just "for the tabloid press", I'd suggest).

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the article? - or are you lying? Those are the only two possibilities.

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The cause (for Rigby's death) is clear - it's the British foreign policy

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crime verdicts. I don't suppose you could be bothered to explain how a

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http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/condone?q=condone

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has been particularly controversial in his comments on BBC Radio, e.g.

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praising the attack, and encouraging others to carry out other attacks.

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This article has explicitly referred to Rigby as having been murdered

1906:

Can you please cite a source for "the determination of the State that

1879:, despite the lack of anyone being caught. Please try to explain how 1332:

The current sources do not support any mention of Jeremiah Adebolajo.

3022:

News on May 29 referring to it as "the Woolwich Murder". Here's the

1548:

wrote "'De facto murder' is not a legal term." I never suggested it

622:

http://www2.gre.ac.uk/about/news/articles/2013/statementbarrackevents

4160:. Michael Adebolajo gave bystander Amanda Donnelly Martin this note, 2604: 2243:..." Actually, according to the Crown Prosecution Service, murder 374:

Tell Mama UK lost its original funding for "embellishing the truth"

4429: 3218: 3026:

on June 1 referring to Rigby as having been murdered. Here's the

4210:

due to his desire to be seen as a soldier fighting for a cause.--

2358:. This is a UK article, not about a US scenario, and involves UK 1861:

That determination has already been made: Lee Rigby was murdered.

3286:

that the cause of this is David Cameron and his foreign policy."

3222:

and Michael Adebolajo's brother, Jeremiah "condoning" the attack

2599:

incidentally for any British contributors, avoiding breaches of

2570:

Still nobody agrees with Bricology's bizarre interpretations...

2510:-- to determine that someone has been murdered, before or even 4066: 3365:

accept behaviour that is considered morally wrong or offensive

3161:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3775500.ece

3041:

every single version of this article since it was first posted

3019: 2099: 900:

successor to prevent the leaking of secret materiel about the

536: 25: 3857:, and a facebook group started called "Lee Rigby Deserved It" 3471:) But I do not believe they should be mentioned in the lede. 1967:, for those unfamiliar with it, is described in its Wiki as " 3800:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reverting#Explain_reverts

3401:". Also, Choudary was hardly alone in condoning the murder. 1622:

explicitly states four times that Goldman was murdered, and

3018:

on May 27 referring to it as "the Woolwich Murder". Here's

4604:

No not by the British state, by a jury of British people.

2572:" I'm not impressed by appeal-to-popularity fallacies. " 4103:

Michael Adebolajo is reported to have given a passerby a

2409:

murders I could cite from WP. So, what is it that makes

1447:

murder; there is no other legal term for it. That's why

728:

Now we have the verdict, is it time to move the article?

2303:

their guilt or lack thereof is a separate legal question

2251:"? Nope. It says "...to charge Michael Adebowale with 933:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

455:

One of the clumsier edits was hilarious: "killed by two

180:. At the moment, there are no firm plans on the table.-- 4368:

What is clear from the timeline and CCTV video footage

3149: 1577:

of these articles explicitly state that they were both

846: 620:

statement about the two accused: you can find it here:

489:

However, I am unable to edit the page to reflect this.

161:

and would appreciate some thoughts. Thanks in advance.

2884:

as having been "murdered" or being a "murder victim",

2740:

was committed. - Separately as food for thought these

1637:

deaths includes notable cases where victims have been

3593:

Under the first heading, the final paragraph stated "

2008:

headdesk/headdesk/headdesk/headdesk/headdesk/headdesk

1975:. Satisfied? -or still interested in prevaricating? 1202:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

1077:

per policy as we now have a conviction in this case.

3710:. Routine editing and discussion is not vandalism.-- 1151:. Murder is now the legal description of the event. 696:

This would be more on topic in the links section of

159:

Talk:1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions

3607:...but condoned by others such as radical Islamist 3043:. Apparently, some here didn't bother to actually 2686:suspect, much less conviction, could you? Because 1627:Furthermore, there is an entire WP article just on 947:. No further edits should be made to this section. 377:. The article is echoing this, so I am fixing it.-- 3435:"Condone" can be taken as meaning approval, eg in 3363:". The Oxford dictionary defines "condone" as to " 1216:. No further edits should be made to this section. 4654:soldiers but Islamic ones treated as criminals? 4555:Two people were found guilty of ......"murder".-- 4206:while another psychiatrist compares Adebolajo to 3996:Quite. But that doesn't answer my point at all. 212:Within hours of the attack, messages appeared on 2908:Regardless, it's a relief to know that neither 2261:negate the fact that the victim was murdered by 1822:. If you also think that is patronising, tough. 1560:. No one -- not even the courts -- deny that. 3601:condemned. To give two examples of those who 3483:p.s. I think his name is Jeremiah, not Jeremy? 2965:since the very first iteration of it on May 30 2429:List of unsolved murders in the United Kingdom 2193:List of unsolved murders in the United Kingdom 2016:has already determined that Rigby was murdered 661:Woolwich murderers convicted by British court 4117:The Koranic Basis for the Murder of Lee Rigby 4053:The Koranic Basis for the Murder of Lee Rigby 3834:and justified by an influential leader there. 3585:Mentioning Muslim extremist views in the lead 666:MI5 ‘harassed’ Woolwich killer, says brother 8: 2886:for whom no murderer had ever been convicted 2014:to learn that the Crown Prosecution Service 655:UK extremists face 'terror gateway' scrutiny 2122:But you are right, because you say you are. 676:Muslims feel targeted over Woolwich killing 346:Muslims reprisal attacks, or the 17 of them 4163:so it could be mentioned in the article.-- 3734:the sources cited do not state that he did 3361:to accept or allow behaviour that is wrong 2658:not guilty of murder by reason of insanity 904:, or even a boring old error of law :). -- 3039:" "Initial and prior versions"? No, in 1786:confessions of having committed the crime 671:British imam denies Woolwich murder links 354:, and Fiyaz Mughal who runs the project. 4011:this article to do in very much detail. 2970:explicitly state that Rigby was murdered 2048:. I'd love to see that actual statute. 1671:(the term "murder" is used no less than 4420:Tagging of Anti-Muslim backlash section 3770: 3508: 3087: 3893:with the vast majority of reactions.-- 2522:Even if these defendants are acquitted 1647:including murders committed by unknown 849:. What is the best thing to do here?-- 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3538:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634095 3376:is far from an insignificant figure. 3172:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22703063 3095:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23099824 1770:2004 Jenner, California double-murder 7: 3640:attract blocks of at least 24 hours. 3631:Knowledge:Revert only when necessary 3231:say that they condoned the attack.-- 2312:This very article reports it as such 2077:So, let me see if I understand you, 952:The result of the move request was: 1391:This has been discussed previously 1354:"Death of..."? -or "Murder of..."? 1185:- no reason not to make this move. 316:This has been discussed before and 3854:. They also got support on Twitter 1449:Adebolajo and Adebowale have been 281:Problem with the opening paragraph 24: 4325:and this man is a British soldier 1744:No. The "policy" you refer to ( 841:When I tried to move the page to 4115:was also published at this blog 4070: 1720:The article itself, in the lead, 1005:as per my above comments - i.e; 956:per policy and consensus below. 585:There is a sourcing issue here. 540: 29: 2782:is still perfectly acceptable? 2736:committed it and certainly not 2171:wrote "Yet again, no source." 902:US presidents death certificate 475:Fusilier Lee Rigby, not Drummer 228:. Here are some more sources.. 204:Twitter & Facebook response 4138:Blogs aren't considered to be 2882:described in title and content 1435:attacked and killed by two men 1168:for the very obvious reasons. 414:15:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC) 387:11:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC) 1: 4315:09:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC) 4284:23:50, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4256:20:51, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4228:19:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4197:19:29, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4181:19:08, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4156:This is in the image gallery 4152:18:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4129:18:29, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 4021:01:01, 23 December 2013 (UTC) 4006:23:01, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3992:21:40, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3977:20:59, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3950:17:11, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3926:17:05, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3911:16:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3885:16:42, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3870:16:36, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3849:also "celebrates" the murder. 3746:15:40, 22 December 2013 (UTC) 3728:11:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3694:10:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3675:10:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3652:10:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3481:12:01, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3457:11:56, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3431:11:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3351:10:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3337:09:26, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3323:09:24, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3281:09:12, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3249:09:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3057:10:09, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 3003:09:38, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 2982:07:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 2950:01:43, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 2935:00:11, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 2925:titles to "The deaths of..." 2865:21:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 2845:19:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 2806:14:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 2792:14:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 2754:19:45, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2704:07:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 2670:02:13, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 2616:17:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2590:07:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 2553:20:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2538:20:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2498:11:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2462:19:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2446:19:05, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2423:18:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2382:22:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 2325:18:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2289:07:27, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2275:07:15, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2241:The Crown Prosecution Service 2232:06:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2219:The Crown Prosecution Service 2209:07:51, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 2164:18:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2145:07:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2073:05:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 2058:04:57, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1999:01:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1985:01:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1946:00:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1920:00:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC) 1898:23:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1834:10:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1802:20:37, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1711:08:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1690:07:52, 22 November 2013 (UTC) 1611:21:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC) 1595:21:09, 21 November 2013 (UTC) 1581:, even though the defendant, 1541:06:39, 17 November 2013 (UTC) 1515:02:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC) 1494:01:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC) 1476:01:45, 17 November 2013 (UTC) 1429:23:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 1409:21:04, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 1387:20:44, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 1372:20:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC) 1342:09:06, 21 December 2013 (UTC) 1328:21:32, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1314:21:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1295:20:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1278:19:51, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1251:19:41, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1195:13:27, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 1178:10:32, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 1161:02:05, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 1144:01:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 1127:23:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1110:22:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1087:22:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1070:22:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1053:21:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1036:21:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 1019:20:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 997:19:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 966:13:32, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 914:03:08, 20 December 2013 (UTC) 891:22:59, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 867:19:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 837:17:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 806:16:12, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 792:16:06, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 775:16:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 761:14:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 738:14:00, 19 December 2013 (UTC) 718:08:07, 18 December 2013 (UTC) 690:19:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC) 642:12:22, 16 December 2013 (UTC) 613:09:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC) 580:09:11, 16 December 2013 (UTC) 469:07:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC) 450:06:49, 20 November 2013 (UTC) 4411:09:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC) 4391:17:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC) 4343:14:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC) 2769:23:43, 4 December 2013 (UTC) 2217:I'm with Andy. According to 1464:which they have already done 527:13:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC) 501:13:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC) 4093:to reactivate your request. 4081:has been answered. Set the 3665:, and behave accordingly. 2249:murdering Drummer Lee Rigby 2117:This very Knowledge article 2093:Metropolitan Police Service 563:to reactivate your request. 551:has been answered. Set the 338:18:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC) 312:18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC) 296:17:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC) 275:18:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC) 260:19:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC) 4709: 4691:14:11, 29 April 2014 (UTC) 4670:14:04, 29 April 2014 (UTC) 4642:07:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC) 4614:13:57, 26 April 2014 (UTC) 4590:07:16, 26 April 2014 (UTC) 4565:07:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC) 4545:07:02, 26 April 2014 (UTC) 2245:has already been committed 2010:No, Andy, it may surprise 1282:The BBC programme is here 4511:06:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC) 4478:20:40, 8 April 2014 (UTC) 4450:08:18, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 3637:which explicitly states " 2506:possible -- indeed, even 2086:Crown Prosecution Service 1965:Crown Prosecution Service 1926:As I have said above the 1758:Murder of JonBenét Ramsey 1552:a "legal term". It is a 198:12:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC) 171:13:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC) 144:15:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 129:15:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 113:15:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC) 93:Map replaced with picture 4681:is. Ditto IRA killings. 4362:Woolwich Arsenal station 2780:Category: Murder in 2013 2395:Murder of Rachel Nickell 2181:Murder of Rachel Nickell 1209:Please do not modify it. 940:Please do not modify it. 18:Talk:Murder of Lee Rigby 4239:in line with Knowledge 3461:I think those who have 2833:The murder of Lee Rigby 2299:it's necessary to do so 1778:Murder of Jill-Lyn Euto 1774:Murder of Suzanne Jovin 1629:List of unsolved deaths 1556:term. Murder happened 176:There is an element of 100:Murder of Joanna Yeates 4208:Anders Behring Breivik 3635:Knowledge:edit warring 3397:also told the BBC "... 1908:Lee Rigby was murdered 1857:Lee Rigby was murdered 1762:Murder of Tupac Shakur 224:But I got reverted by 3605:the murder, I added " 2427:Yet another example: 724:Time to move article? 42:of past discussions. 3297:Placing this in the 2910:Nicole Brown Simpson 2399:Murder of Linda Cook 2239:wrote "According to 2189:Adam (murder victim) 2185:Murder of Linda Cook 2130:Adam (murder victim) 2029:Adam (murder victim) 1872:Adam (murder victim) 1624:Nicole Brown Simpson 1567:Nicole Brown Simpson 394:Death of Mark Duggan 4360:. Rigby arrived at 3840:was "proud" of them 3702:, because it gives 3403:Omar Bakri Muhammad 2904:the murder of Rigby 1722:states that Rigby " 1669:Whitechapel murders 1641:or have died under 1451:charged with murder 1437:" and that he was " 1094:per above comments. 977:Murder of Lee Rigby 843:Murder of Lee Rigby 587:This BBC News story 3464: 3355:Totally disagree. 2356:Other stuff exists 1673:seventy-four times 1661:Lake Bodom murders 1223:Jeremiah Adebolajo 973:Death of Lee Rigby 4660:comment added by 4580:comment added by 4535:comment added by 4097: 4096: 3462: 2526:this very article 2484:WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT 1766:West Mesa murders 592:set up an inquiry 567: 566: 152:Request for input 90: 89: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4700: 4672: 4637: 4635: 4634: 4592: 4547: 4506: 4504: 4503: 4445: 4443: 4442: 4386: 4384: 4383: 4310: 4308: 4307: 4251: 4223: 4221: 4220: 4176: 4174: 4173: 4113:handwritten note 4105:handwritten note 4088: 4084: 4074: 4073: 4067: 3906: 3904: 3903: 3813: 3808: 3802: 3797: 3791: 3786: 3780: 3775: 3723: 3721: 3720: 3573: 3568: 3562: 3557: 3551: 3546: 3540: 3535: 3529: 3524: 3518: 3513: 3452: 3450: 3449: 3318: 3316: 3315: 3244: 3242: 3241: 3207: 3202: 3196: 3191: 3185: 3180: 3174: 3169: 3163: 3158: 3152: 3147: 3141: 3136: 3130: 3125: 3119: 3114: 3108: 3103: 3097: 3092: 3000: 2995: 2495: 2490: 2459: 2454: 2377: 2375: 2374: 2018:. Really. You 1942: 1939: 1936: 1831: 1826: 1707: 1704: 1701: 1608: 1603: 1536: 1534: 1533: 1511: 1508: 1505: 1425: 1422: 1419: 1304:may also apply. 1273: 1271: 1270: 1211: 1106: 1103: 1100: 992: 990: 989: 942: 887: 884: 881: 862: 860: 859: 789: 784: 756: 754: 753: 713: 711: 710: 637: 635: 634: 608: 606: 605: 558: 554: 544: 543: 537: 522: 520: 519: 445: 443: 442: 409: 407: 406: 333: 331: 330: 226:user:Ian.thomson 208:I tried to add 193: 191: 190: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4708: 4707: 4703: 4702: 4701: 4699: 4698: 4697: 4655: 4632: 4630: 4628: 4575: 4530: 4523: 4501: 4499: 4497: 4461: 4440: 4438: 4436: 4422: 4381: 4379: 4377: 4358:this CCTV image 4327: 4305: 4303: 4301: 4249: 4218: 4216: 4214: 4171: 4169: 4167: 4086: 4082: 4071: 4055: 3901: 3899: 3897: 3818: 3817: 3816: 3809: 3805: 3798: 3794: 3787: 3783: 3776: 3772: 3718: 3716: 3714: 3663:WP:NOTVANDALISM 3587: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3569: 3565: 3558: 3554: 3547: 3543: 3536: 3532: 3525: 3521: 3514: 3510: 3447: 3445: 3443: 3437:Merriam Webster 3313: 3311: 3309: 3239: 3237: 3235: 3224: 3212: 3211: 3210: 3203: 3199: 3192: 3188: 3181: 3177: 3170: 3166: 3159: 3155: 3148: 3144: 3137: 3133: 3126: 3122: 3115: 3111: 3104: 3100: 3093: 3089: 3024:Daily Telegraph 2998: 2993: 2918:JonBenét Ramsey 2562:Still no source 2493: 2488: 2457: 2452: 2372: 2370: 2368: 2111:The Independent 2107:Daily Telegraph 1940: 1937: 1934: 1829: 1824: 1705: 1702: 1699: 1645:circumstances, 1606: 1601: 1531: 1529: 1527: 1509: 1506: 1503: 1423: 1420: 1417: 1356: 1268: 1266: 1264: 1225: 1220: 1207: 1104: 1101: 1098: 1079:Paul MacDermott 987: 985: 983: 938: 928: 885: 882: 879: 857: 855: 853: 787: 782: 767:Paul MacDermott 751: 749: 747: 730:Paul MacDermott 726: 708: 706: 704: 650: 632: 630: 628: 603: 601: 599: 556: 552: 541: 535: 517: 515: 513: 477: 440: 438: 436: 425: 404: 402: 400: 348: 328: 326: 324: 283: 206: 188: 186: 184: 163:Paul MacDermott 154: 105:Paul MacDermott 95: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4706: 4704: 4694: 4693: 4647: 4646: 4645: 4644: 4618: 4617: 4616: 4606:IdreamofJeanie 4568: 4567: 4522: 4521:Article rename 4519: 4514: 4513: 4460: 4457: 4421: 4418: 4394: 4393: 4326: 4323: 4318: 4317: 4259: 4258: 4232: 4231: 4230: 4185: 4184: 4183: 4144:Martinevans123 4095: 4094: 4075: 4054: 4051: 4046: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4040: 4039: 4038: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4034: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4024: 4023: 3957:this editorial 3942:Martinevans123 3877:Martinevans123 3815: 3814: 3803: 3792: 3781: 3769: 3768: 3764: 3753: 3752: 3751: 3750: 3749: 3748: 3686:Martinevans123 3677: 3611:, who stated " 3609:Anjem Choudary 3586: 3583: 3575: 3574: 3563: 3552: 3541: 3530: 3519: 3507: 3506: 3502: 3491: 3490: 3489: 3488: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3484: 3473:Martinevans123 3468:Any Questions? 3459: 3395:Asghar Bukhari 3391:Asghar Bukhari 3374:Anjem Choudary 3339: 3329:Martinevans123 3325: 3288: 3287: 3283: 3273:Martinevans123 3260:Anjem Choudary 3223: 3220:Anjem Choudary 3217: 3209: 3208: 3197: 3186: 3175: 3164: 3153: 3142: 3131: 3120: 3109: 3098: 3086: 3085: 3081: 3070: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3059: 2914:Ronald Goldman 2809: 2808: 2798:Martinevans123 2794: 2784:Martinevans123 2761:109.155.74.194 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2623: 2620: 2619: 2618: 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2592: 2474: 2473: 2472: 2471: 2468: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2425: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2347: 2346: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2332: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2215: 2214: 2213: 2212: 2211: 2134: 2133: 2126: 2123: 2120: 2114: 2103: 2096: 2089: 2009: 2007: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1665:Keddie Murders 1653:Gatton murders 1649:serial killers 1631:which begins " 1620:Ronald Goldman 1571:Ronald Goldman 1496: 1389: 1355: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1334:Martinevans123 1330: 1320:Martinevans123 1287:Martinevans123 1243:Martinevans123 1224: 1221: 1219: 1218: 1204:requested move 1198: 1197: 1180: 1163: 1146: 1129: 1112: 1089: 1072: 1055: 1045:Martinevans123 1038: 1021: 971: 969: 950: 949: 935:requested move 929: 927: 926:Requested move 924: 923: 922: 921: 920: 919: 918: 917: 916: 869: 824: 823: 822: 821: 820: 813:Martinevans123 808: 725: 722: 721: 720: 698:Anjem Choudary 649: 646: 645: 644: 616: 615: 565: 564: 545: 534: 531: 530: 529: 476: 473: 472: 471: 424: 418: 417: 416: 372: 371: 366: 361: 347: 344: 343: 342: 341: 340: 304:Martinevans123 282: 279: 278: 277: 267:Martinevans123 247: 246: 242: 238: 234: 222: 221: 205: 202: 201: 200: 153: 150: 149: 148: 147: 146: 121:Martinevans123 94: 91: 88: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4705: 4696: 4695: 4692: 4688: 4684: 4679: 4678: 4675: 4674: 4673: 4671: 4667: 4663: 4659: 4649: 4648: 4643: 4640: 4639: 4638: 4622: 4619: 4615: 4611: 4607: 4603: 4602: 4601: 4600: 4599: 4598: 4595: 4594: 4593: 4591: 4587: 4583: 4579: 4570: 4569: 4566: 4562: 4558: 4554: 4553: 4550: 4549: 4548: 4546: 4542: 4538: 4534: 4525: 4524: 4520: 4516: 4515: 4512: 4509: 4508: 4507: 4492: 4489: 4486: 4485: 4482: 4481: 4480: 4479: 4475: 4471: 4463: 4462: 4458: 4454: 4453: 4452: 4451: 4448: 4447: 4446: 4431: 4424: 4423: 4419: 4415: 4414: 4413: 4412: 4408: 4404: 4396: 4395: 4392: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4371: 4367: 4363: 4359: 4355: 4351: 4350: 4347: 4346: 4345: 4344: 4340: 4336: 4329: 4328: 4324: 4320: 4319: 4316: 4313: 4312: 4311: 4296: 4292: 4291: 4288: 4287: 4286: 4285: 4281: 4277: 4273: 4271: 4269: 4267: 4261: 4260: 4257: 4254: 4252: 4246: 4242: 4238: 4233: 4229: 4226: 4225: 4224: 4209: 4204: 4200: 4199: 4198: 4194: 4190: 4186: 4182: 4179: 4178: 4177: 4162: 4159: 4155: 4154: 4153: 4149: 4145: 4141: 4137: 4136: 4133: 4132: 4131: 4130: 4126: 4122: 4118: 4114: 4110: 4106: 4099: 4098: 4092: 4089:parameter to 4080: 4076: 4069: 4068: 4063: 4062: 4061: 4057: 4056: 4052: 4048: 4047: 4022: 4018: 4014: 4009: 4008: 4007: 4003: 3999: 3995: 3994: 3993: 3989: 3985: 3980: 3979: 3978: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3962: 3958: 3953: 3952: 3951: 3947: 3943: 3939: 3938: 3933: 3929: 3928: 3927: 3923: 3919: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3909: 3908: 3907: 3892: 3888: 3887: 3886: 3882: 3878: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3867: 3863: 3859: 3856: 3853: 3851: 3848: 3845: 3842: 3839: 3836: 3833: 3830: 3829: 3828: 3827: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3820: 3819: 3812: 3807: 3804: 3801: 3796: 3793: 3790: 3785: 3782: 3779: 3774: 3771: 3767: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3755: 3754: 3747: 3743: 3739: 3735: 3731: 3730: 3729: 3726: 3725: 3724: 3709: 3705: 3701: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3691: 3687: 3684:contribution. 3682: 3678: 3676: 3672: 3668: 3664: 3660: 3659: 3656: 3655: 3654: 3653: 3649: 3645: 3641: 3636: 3632: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3618: 3614: 3610: 3604: 3600: 3596: 3589: 3588: 3584: 3580: 3579: 3572: 3567: 3564: 3561: 3556: 3553: 3550: 3545: 3542: 3539: 3534: 3531: 3528: 3523: 3520: 3517: 3512: 3509: 3505: 3499: 3498: 3497: 3493: 3492: 3482: 3478: 3474: 3470: 3469: 3460: 3458: 3455: 3454: 3453: 3438: 3434: 3433: 3432: 3428: 3424: 3420: 3416: 3412: 3408: 3404: 3400: 3396: 3392: 3387: 3383: 3379: 3375: 3370: 3366: 3362: 3358: 3354: 3353: 3352: 3348: 3344: 3340: 3338: 3334: 3330: 3326: 3324: 3321: 3320: 3319: 3304: 3300: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3290: 3289: 3284: 3282: 3278: 3274: 3270: 3267: 3264: 3261: 3257: 3256: 3253: 3252: 3251: 3250: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3226: 3225: 3221: 3214: 3213: 3206: 3201: 3198: 3195: 3190: 3187: 3184: 3179: 3176: 3173: 3168: 3165: 3162: 3157: 3154: 3151: 3146: 3143: 3140: 3135: 3132: 3129: 3124: 3121: 3118: 3113: 3110: 3107: 3102: 3099: 3096: 3091: 3088: 3084: 3078: 3077: 3076: 3072: 3071: 3058: 3054: 3050: 3046: 3042: 3038: 3033: 3029: 3025: 3021: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3008:Leaky_caldron 3006: 3005: 3004: 3001: 2996: 2989: 2986:The case was 2985: 2984: 2983: 2979: 2975: 2971: 2967: 2966: 2960: 2956: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2947: 2943: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2932: 2928: 2923: 2919: 2915: 2911: 2907: 2905: 2899: 2897: 2891: 2887: 2883: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2862: 2858: 2853: 2852: 2849: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2822: 2821:Leaky_caldron 2818: 2811: 2810: 2807: 2803: 2799: 2795: 2793: 2789: 2785: 2781: 2777: 2776: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2766: 2762: 2756: 2755: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2742:"course notes 2739: 2735: 2727: 2726: 2705: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2689: 2685: 2681: 2676: 2673: 2672: 2671: 2667: 2663: 2659: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2638: 2622: 2621: 2617: 2613: 2609: 2605: 2602: 2597: 2591: 2587: 2583: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2563: 2559: 2556: 2555: 2554: 2550: 2546: 2541: 2540: 2539: 2535: 2531: 2527: 2523: 2518: 2513: 2509: 2504: 2503:Leaky_caldron 2501: 2500: 2499: 2496: 2491: 2485: 2480: 2477: 2470: 2469: 2463: 2460: 2455: 2449: 2448: 2447: 2443: 2439: 2434: 2430: 2426: 2424: 2420: 2416: 2412: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2396: 2392: 2388: 2385: 2384: 2383: 2380: 2379: 2378: 2363: 2362: 2357: 2354: 2345: 2331: 2326: 2322: 2318: 2313: 2308: 2304: 2300: 2295: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2286: 2282: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2272: 2268: 2264: 2260: 2256: 2255:fait accompli 2250: 2246: 2242: 2238: 2235: 2234: 2233: 2229: 2225: 2220: 2216: 2210: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2194: 2190: 2186: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2170: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2161: 2157: 2154: 2152: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2142: 2138: 2131: 2127: 2124: 2121: 2118: 2115: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2101: 2097: 2094: 2090: 2087: 2083: 2082: 2080: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2061: 2060: 2059: 2055: 2051: 2047: 2043: 2039: 2035: 2030: 2026: 2021: 2017: 2013: 2005: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1996: 1992: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1982: 1978: 1974: 1970: 1966: 1962: 1957: 1953: 1950:Here you go, 1949: 1948: 1947: 1944: 1943: 1929: 1925: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1917: 1913: 1909: 1904: 1903: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1895: 1891: 1887: 1882: 1878: 1873: 1869: 1866: 1862: 1858: 1854: 1850: 1849:Leaky_caldron 1846: 1845: 1843: 1842: 1840: 1839: 1837: 1836: 1835: 1832: 1827: 1821: 1816: 1812: 1811: 1804: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1787: 1783: 1779: 1775: 1771: 1767: 1763: 1759: 1755: 1751: 1747: 1743: 1739: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1721: 1717: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1709: 1708: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1687: 1683: 1678: 1674: 1670: 1666: 1662: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1648: 1644: 1640: 1636: 1633:This list of 1630: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1616:Leaky_caldron 1614: 1613: 1612: 1609: 1604: 1598: 1597: 1596: 1592: 1588: 1584: 1580: 1576: 1572: 1568: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1547: 1544: 1543: 1542: 1539: 1538: 1537: 1522: 1518: 1517: 1516: 1513: 1512: 1497: 1495: 1491: 1487: 1483: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1473: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1452: 1446: 1445: 1440: 1436: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1427: 1426: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1406: 1402: 1398: 1394: 1390: 1388: 1384: 1380: 1376: 1375: 1374: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1361: 1353: 1343: 1339: 1335: 1331: 1329: 1325: 1321: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1311: 1307: 1303: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1292: 1288: 1284: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1276: 1275: 1274: 1259: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1248: 1244: 1241: 1238: 1235: 1232: 1231: 1222: 1217: 1215: 1210: 1205: 1200: 1199: 1196: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1181: 1179: 1175: 1171: 1167: 1164: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1150: 1147: 1145: 1141: 1137: 1133: 1130: 1128: 1124: 1120: 1116: 1113: 1111: 1108: 1107: 1093: 1090: 1088: 1084: 1080: 1076: 1073: 1071: 1067: 1063: 1059: 1056: 1054: 1050: 1046: 1042: 1039: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1022: 1020: 1016: 1012: 1008: 1004: 1001: 1000: 999: 998: 995: 994: 993: 978: 974: 968: 967: 963: 959: 955: 948: 946: 941: 936: 931: 930: 925: 915: 911: 907: 903: 899: 894: 893: 892: 889: 888: 875:safe to move. 873: 870: 868: 865: 864: 863: 848: 844: 840: 839: 838: 834: 830: 825: 818: 814: 809: 807: 803: 799: 795: 794: 793: 790: 785: 778: 777: 776: 772: 768: 764: 763: 762: 759: 758: 757: 742: 741: 740: 739: 735: 731: 723: 719: 716: 715: 714: 699: 695: 694: 693: 691: 687: 683: 679: 677: 672: 667: 662: 656: 647: 643: 640: 639: 638: 623: 618: 617: 614: 611: 610: 609: 593: 588: 584: 583: 582: 581: 577: 573: 562: 559:parameter to 550: 546: 539: 538: 532: 528: 525: 524: 523: 508: 505: 504: 503: 502: 498: 494: 490: 487: 484: 481: 474: 470: 466: 462: 458: 454: 453: 452: 451: 448: 447: 446: 431: 422: 419: 415: 412: 411: 410: 395: 391: 390: 389: 388: 384: 380: 376: 370: 367: 365: 362: 360: 357: 356: 355: 353: 345: 339: 336: 335: 334: 319: 315: 314: 313: 309: 305: 300: 299: 298: 297: 293: 289: 280: 276: 272: 268: 264: 263: 262: 261: 257: 253: 245: 243: 241: 239: 237: 235: 233: 231: 230: 229: 227: 220: 218: 215: 211: 210: 209: 203: 199: 196: 195: 194: 179: 175: 174: 173: 172: 168: 164: 160: 151: 145: 141: 137: 132: 131: 130: 126: 122: 117: 116: 115: 114: 110: 106: 101: 92: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4677: 4676: 4662:82.41.41.184 4656:— Preceding 4652: 4651: 4650: 4626: 4625: 4597: 4596: 4582:82.41.41.184 4576:— Preceding 4573: 4572: 4571: 4552: 4551: 4537:82.41.41.184 4531:— Preceding 4528: 4527: 4526: 4518: 4517: 4495: 4494: 4484: 4483: 4470:AnarchoGhost 4466: 4465: 4464: 4456: 4455: 4434: 4433: 4427: 4426: 4425: 4417: 4416: 4399: 4398: 4397: 4375: 4374: 4349: 4348: 4332: 4331: 4330: 4322: 4321: 4299: 4298: 4290: 4289: 4264: 4263: 4262: 4212: 4211: 4189:AndyTheGrump 4165: 4164: 4135: 4134: 4121:79.192.48.78 4108: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4090: 4079:edit request 4065: 4064: 4060: 4059: 4058: 4050: 4049: 3964: 3960: 3937:The Guardian 3935: 3918:AndyTheGrump 3895: 3894: 3891:equal weight 3822: 3821: 3806: 3795: 3784: 3773: 3765: 3763: 3762: 3758: 3757: 3756: 3738:AndyTheGrump 3733: 3712: 3711: 3704:undue weight 3700:lead section 3658: 3657: 3638: 3616: 3612: 3606: 3602: 3598: 3594: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3582: 3581: 3566: 3555: 3544: 3533: 3522: 3511: 3503: 3501: 3500: 3496: 3495: 3494: 3466: 3441: 3440: 3418: 3414: 3410: 3406: 3398: 3385: 3381: 3368: 3364: 3360: 3307: 3306: 3292: 3291: 3255: 3254: 3233: 3232: 3229: 3228: 3227: 3216: 3215: 3200: 3189: 3178: 3167: 3156: 3145: 3134: 3123: 3112: 3101: 3090: 3082: 3080: 3079: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3044: 3040: 3036: 3011: 2969: 2964: 2962: 2958: 2955:AndyTheGrump 2942:AndyTheGrump 2922:Tupac Shakur 2903: 2901: 2895: 2893: 2889: 2885: 2881: 2873: 2870:AndyTheGrump 2857:AndyTheGrump 2851: 2850: 2832: 2817:AndyTheGrump 2814: 2813: 2812: 2775: 2774: 2757: 2746:84.92.56.128 2737: 2733: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2691: 2687: 2683: 2679: 2637: 2636: 2608:AndyTheGrump 2600: 2577: 2573: 2569: 2565: 2561: 2558:AndyTheGrump 2545:AndyTheGrump 2525: 2521: 2516: 2511: 2507: 2476: 2475: 2432: 2410: 2406: 2402: 2366: 2365: 2359: 2353: 2352: 2311: 2306: 2302: 2298: 2262: 2258: 2254: 2252: 2248: 2244: 2197:Deal with it 2196: 2172: 2169:AndyTheGrump 2156:AndyTheGrump 2150: 2116: 2079:AndyTheGrump 2065:AndyTheGrump 2045: 2041: 2037: 2036:. That has 2033: 2024: 2019: 2015: 2011: 2004:AndyTheGrump 1991:AndyTheGrump 1972: 1968: 1959: 1956:AndyTheGrump 1933: 1924: 1912:AndyTheGrump 1907: 1905: 1902: 1885: 1880: 1876: 1867: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1852: 1847: 1844: 1841: 1838: 1813: 1810: 1789: 1785: 1781: 1753: 1749: 1741: 1737: 1735: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1719: 1698: 1676: 1672: 1659:Murder, the 1657:Black Dahlia 1646: 1642: 1638: 1634: 1632: 1578: 1574: 1562:User:ianmacm 1557: 1553: 1549: 1546:AndyTheGrump 1525: 1524: 1502: 1486:AndyTheGrump 1481: 1463: 1459: 1455: 1450: 1448: 1443: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1416: 1379:AndyTheGrump 1359: 1357: 1262: 1261: 1228: 1226: 1208: 1201: 1182: 1165: 1148: 1136:Plot Spoiler 1131: 1117:per above.-- 1114: 1097: 1091: 1074: 1062:AndyTheGrump 1057: 1040: 1023: 1011:84.92.56.128 1006: 1002: 981: 980: 970: 953: 951: 939: 932: 906:84.92.56.128 878: 851: 850: 829:84.92.56.128 745: 744: 727: 702: 701: 651: 626: 625: 597: 596: 572:193.60.54.93 568: 560: 549:edit request 511: 510: 491: 488: 485: 482: 478: 456: 434: 433: 426: 398: 397: 373: 352:Tell Mama UK 349: 322: 321: 318:WP:TERRORIST 284: 248: 223: 207: 182: 181: 155: 96: 78: 43: 37: 4683:Alfietucker 4621:WP:BLPCRIME 4354:This source 3599:unanimously 2888:. Indeed, 2878:WP:BLPCRIME 2778:But use of 1746:WP:BLPCRIME 1583:O J Simpson 1521:WP:BLPCRIME 1441:" That is 1214:move review 1187:Jim Michael 1170:Nick Cooper 1119:Britannicus 945:move review 430:WP:BLPCRIME 421:WP:BLPCRIME 379:Loomspicker 252:Loomspicker 36:This is an 4241:guidelines 4083:|answered= 3965:Al Jazeera 3932:Al Jazeera 3838:Omar Bakri 3766:References 3504:References 3384:". So who 3083:References 3032:Daily Mail 2988:sub judice 2896:the murder 2601:sub judice 2512:in lieu of 2486:attitude. 2391:Jill Dando 2361:sub judice 2177:Jill Dando 1462:murdered, 1302:WP:BLPNAME 1258:transcript 954:page moved 595:clearly.-- 553:|answered= 493:Mikemorton 286:terrorism. 178:WP:CRYSTAL 4557:Egghead06 4276:Helwingia 4250:wintonian 4237:consensus 3862:Helwingia 3847:al-Shabab 3644:Bricology 3423:Bricology 3380:claimed " 3049:Bricology 3016:The Times 2974:Bricology 2927:Bricology 2837:Bricology 2825:Martin451 2696:Bricology 2582:Bricology 2576:" Yeah, 2530:Bricology 2479:Bricology 2438:Bricology 2415:Bricology 2317:Bricology 2267:Bricology 2201:Bricology 2137:Bricology 2050:Bricology 1977:Bricology 1952:Martin451 1890:Bricology 1820:WP:LISTEN 1815:Bricology 1794:Bricology 1728:allegedly 1716:Martin451 1682:Bricology 1587:Bricology 1468:Bricology 1364:Bricology 1134:per nom. 457:suspected 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 4658:unsigned 4578:unsigned 4533:unsigned 4013:Formerip 3998:Ghmyrtle 3984:Formerip 3969:Ghmyrtle 3667:Ghmyrtle 3603:condoned 3463:condoned 3343:Ghmyrtle 3028:Guardian 2034:murdered 1877:murdered 1643:unsolved 1639:murdered 1635:unsolved 1579:murdered 1482:De facto 1444:de facto 1401:Ghmyrtle 1306:Formerip 1028:Formerip 798:Formerip 250:above?-- 136:Ghmyrtle 4624:case.-- 4403:Dave006 4373:time.-- 4335:Dave006 4295:WP:BOLD 4245:WP:NICE 3681:Ianmacm 3623:Ianmacm 3409:" and " 3378:ianmacm 3369:nothing 3357:ianmacm 3299:WP:LEAD 2999:Caldron 2900:" and " 2872:wrote " 2829:ianmacm 2560:wrote " 2494:Caldron 2458:Caldron 2433:victims 2407:British 2387:ianmacm 2263:someone 2173:Someone 2038:nothing 2027:! Was 1963:" The 1928:Inquest 1851:wrote " 1830:Caldron 1667:or the 1607:Caldron 1558:in fact 1554:logical 1256:In the 1183:Support 1166:SUpport 1149:Support 1132:Support 1115:Support 1092:Support 1075:Support 1058:Support 1041:Support 1024:Support 1003:Support 788:Caldron 288:Tomh903 214:Twitter 39:archive 4459:Attack 4293:I was 4274:etc.-- 4202:video. 3708:WP:3RR 3627:WP:AGF 3419:That's 3405:said " 3303:WP:DUE 2994:Leaky 2815:Well, 2680:victim 2508:common 2489:Leaky 2453:Leaky 2397:, the 2393:, the 2191:, and 2183:, the 2179:, the 1932:Martin 1825:Leaky 1776:, the 1772:, the 1768:, the 1764:, the 1760:, the 1750:hasn't 1697:Martin 1663:, the 1655:, the 1602:Leaky 1501:Martin 1499:death. 1456:guilty 1415:Martin 1096:Martin 877:Martin 783:Leaky 682:Lihaas 459:men". 423:issues 4140:WP:RS 4111:This 4087:|ans= 4077:This 3959:says 3258:Yes, 2578:right 2566:Wrong 2517:other 2403:still 2307:jihad 2020:still 1782:et al 898:NSA's 675:: --> 674:: --> 670:: --> 669:: --> 665:: --> 664:: --> 660:: 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