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I don't see it as an improvement and I have yet to come across a single RS that describes North Africa as such. Essentially, this description makes it needlessly complicated for someone who's not familiar with the subject to actually visualize where NF is (which is the whole purpose of the sentence).
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I agree with
Mathglot's suggestion (just reiterating this as I already mentioned it in the above discussion). I strongly oppose the inclusion of the Sahara in the first sentence (again, this has been explained). Equally, given that we state in the lead that "there is no singularly accepted scope for
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The cherry picked sources that are not not subject don't have much weight. What you consider to be important is just your opinion. When I think of North Africa, the Sahara is the last thing that springs to mind because I think not only of what it means today to some people, but also to what it meant
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Let me repeat again: as someone who is involved (actually, you are the cause of the RfC), you simply cannot decide what the consensus of the RfC is. Is that clear enough for you? Discussing an !vote doesn't constitute anything (that's why I and I suspect others ignored your ping back then). If you
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I simply saw the discussion had run its course and simply took action as in any other discussion. Again, I pinged editors who participated and no one replied. I waited a week to see if someone would reply and no one did. Then I simply assumed no one had objections to the proposal and I implemented
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If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable. Written closing statements are not required. Editors are expected to be able to evaluate and agree upon the results of most RfCs without
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You repeatedly state opinions without citing any relevant
Knowledge guidance. Please share with us relevant Knowledge guidance instead of only your opinions. I already mentioned relevant guidance that you dismiss as jargon in favor of yet your personal opinions. That's not how things work in
1582:" Simply bolding without using connective words like "or" or similar is not stating how often it is used, but simply it is a way to avoid redundancy so we don't end up saying North Africa is the region of North Africa. But what is your take? What is the meaning of Northern Africa?
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Regarding your source, check the map. Is your source saying North Africa is only the small strip of land between the desert (in yellow) and the
Mediterranean? If so, it appears to directly contradict the sources I found and what currently is stated in the article
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I consider the Sahara being one of the most notable geographic features in North Africa is a basic fact that would be helpful to include in the first sentence. I know you disagree; therefore, in this case, because of your objection, MOS:LEADCITE also states,
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if the discussion stopped, and editors have already assessed the consensus and moved on with their work, then there may be no need to formally close the discussion unless the process (e.g., Knowledge:Articles for deletion) requires formal closure for other
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The Sahara desert is recognized as a landmark around the world. It is mostly a feature of
Northern Africa as it covers much of it and is its most notable geographic characteristic (at least region-wide). Therefore, I think it should be in the first
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Oh ok, so for UN Sudan is a part of North Africa, for AU Mauritania is a part of this region and historicaly Sudan and
Mauritania are not north african countries. Hmmm... That allright, we will follow the RfC so. Thank you much and best regards.
2702:, Hi, I made a change in the North Africa page regarding the map of the region. Sudan although it is an Arab country like Somalia is not part of North Africa. we can refer to the division of geographical areas of the continent in the site of
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No, I didn't, but you're welcome to do so. The editors that are involved (such as yourself) are not the ones who determine what the RfC consensus is. What was proposed in one of the !Votes can to be discussed once this RfC is closed.
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I pinged you. If you had concerns or objections it would have been appropriate to respond to the ping. I was trying to determine consensus before implementing the proposal. What is your objection that you reverted? Regards,
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If you think you can improve the lead yourself, please do so and then let us know so we can strike it off our list. If you are interested in helping with this project, please visit our project page and add your name to the
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When an RfC is used to resolve a dispute, the resolution is determined the same way as for any other discussion: the participants in the discussion determine what they have agreed on and try to implement their
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the region", I don't see how the inclusion of any specific definition in the first sentence can be justified, especially if it departs from the most common definition that is listed in the following paragraph.
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suggestion from MOS:LEADSENTENCE, non-redundant repetition is essential to make sure we accurately convey what the topic of the article is. For a more detailed treatment of the tension or difference between
1432:(feature wise) because this article is about North Africa and not the Sahara (which has its own) or any other feature or landmark. In other words, I disagree with the inclusion of the Sahara in the lead.
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Ok, I drop my suggestion about the Sahara being in the first sentence. But I still think we can do different than providing a semi-redundant and repetitive first sentence. We can take the hint of
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As for you question, I agree with
Mathglot: "northern Africa" is not synonymous with "North Africa", and it therefore, should either be removed or at the very least have "sometimes" added to it.
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I think mentioning WP:OR about info of the first sentence is misguided. Reason being is that there is more latitude in providing info in the first sentence than in the body of the article. Per
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Please refrain from throwing irrelevant jargon at me. This RfC was started because of you, so now you wait until it's properly closed by someone other than you. 21:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
1571:"What you consider to be important is just your opinion." Yes, this is a discussion, you have your opinion, I have my opinion, others have their opinion. That's usually how discussions work.
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has one mention of "Mauritania" outside of the country statistics table, and no mention of Mali, Niger or Chad at all. The current lead map also does not highlight these four countries.
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I don't need to cite what I expect everyone to know. If you're not familiar with the word involved, then you most certainly are in position to lecture anyone about how
Knowledge works.
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The region of North Africa consists of states that border the southern
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I have yet to see a RS describing North Africa in terms of what it encompasses (all of the Atlas
Mountains, part of the Sahara, the southern part of the Mediterranean coast, etc.).
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There is no required minimum or maximum duration; however, Legobot assumes an RfC has been forgotten and automatically ends it (removes the {{rfc}} tag) 30 days after it begins
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I don't know if you had the chance to look athe RFCCLOSE guidance I shared in my previous comment. No outside assistance is needed to determine consensus unless it's needed.
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It's not my source, it's a scholarly source. The fact that it contradicts the sources that you provided is one more reason why the Sahara shouldn't be included in the lead.
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But editors should not wait for that. If one of the reasons to end RFCs applies, someone should end it manually, as soon as it is clear the discussion has run its course.
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The northern portion of Africa is often consided to be a distinct region of the continent for geographical, historical, linguistic and political reasons.
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I agree with Mathglot that using "or" equates "Northern Africa" with "North Africa". As for the rest of the wording, I recommend simply combining both
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because its lead has been assessed as needing improvement. A member of our team is either currently working on remedying this, or will be shortly.
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Normaly Mauritania is a part of North African zone according to the official site of AU. If it's ok for you, I will add Mauritania. Regards. --
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The point I'm trying to make is that Option A is repetitive, but not redundant (i.e., "superfluous", "unnecessary", "inessential") because "
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I agree that noting that it refers to a region in the northern portion of Africa is essential information (if only to differentiate from
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The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where.
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I said what I had to say and see no reason to repeat it, let alone read your wall of colourful text, so please stop pinging me.
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Sounds nice to me. It certainly provides a better description and idea to the reader than the current first sentence. Regards,
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An RfC should last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be.
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have yet another thing to suggest, then you wait for the RfC to close or you can start a new discussion about it if you wish.
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This RfC is so poorly formed that it seems impossible that any consensus would arise from it, regardless of how long it runs.
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Afterwards it is a question of style. My personal preference is for lead sentances that are a bit more informative than, say
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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was not saying they are not synonymous but rather that they are not equivalent in the degree of common use they have: "
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doesn't define it. Most people wouldn't think of the Sahara desert as on "the northern coast". I.e., it's imprecise.
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The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.
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Given that no one objected to the proposal of Senorangel, I didn't consider the matter contentious.
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The discussion may just stop, and no one cares to restore the {{rfc}} tag after the bot removes it.
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that describes it as a region that is situated between the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea.
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North Africa is a region encompassing Northern Africa that is mostly covered by the Sahara Desert.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Knowledge guidance is not irrelevant jargon, it's what editors should attempt to follow. Thanks.
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The article includes Mauritania, but the map does not. Previous discussions seem divided.
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2355:. If you disagree, feel free to move it back, but I think it works better here. Thanks,
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wouldn't this be a good article to not start with the article name? Something like
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A "region encompassing the northern coast of Africa" might sound less redundant.
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1184:. North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert.
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2745:, as do other Knowledge articles. The UN considers Sudan part of North Africa.
556:. To help assess the quality and importance of geography articles, please see:
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September 2014 census would result in 33,848,242 inhabitants and its mid-2015
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Is Mauritania considered part of North Africa or only sometimes, like Sudan?
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appears to contradict this. The article on the Sahara states and maps that
2575:"We Finally Know Why Northern Africa Is One Of The Driest Places On Earth"
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It looks like Sudan and Western Sahara do not border the Mediterranean.
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There are no policies that directly dictate how to close a discussion.
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In fact, North Africa is about 17 times as common as the alternative.
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I guess you didn't read the second half of my comment... Sincerely,
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as the alternative. No opinion on the "Sahara Desert" part of it.
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I pinged everyone involved in the discussion more than week after
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By that time it was more than a month since the start of the RfC
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I agree. It's precise, and it avoids the Sahara complication.
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throughout its known history. If it helps, I can also quote a
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No one made a comment about the proposal nor objections made.
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There are a few amendments I'd like to make to the section
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Consensus can be assumed if no editors object to a change.
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Please wait for the RfC closer to decide what to do next.
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A longer sentence minus Europe can sound more definitive.
2007:. You shouldn't revert randomly just because. Sincerely,
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Eastern Europe is a subregion of the European continent.
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Significant information should not appear in the lead,
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What closer? Did you request this to be closed? Per
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1574:Regarding Northern Africa vs North Africa, I think
1564:Those are reliable sources. I chose them from the
2601:"Snow falls in Sahara for first time in 37 years"
2439:I do not think it is appropriate to note that it
2428:Thanks for moving this to the appropriate section
1665:The region of North Africa borders the southern
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2472:important cities located in the Sahara include
2436:and clarify that it is not a political entity).
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1619:On the other hand, that's my map.
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2623:The discussion above is closed.
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2374:and a wrong interpretation of
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1901:Senorangel proposal. Regards,
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2573:Nace, Trevor (9 Nov 2017).
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2743:United Nations geoscheme
2737:Greetings. There was an
2625:Please do not modify it.
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2139:I waited a further week.
1223:about 17 times as common
1160:Please do not modify it.
910:provide 2100 population.
633:Knowledge requested maps
598:Geographical coordinates
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2561:demographic projection
2543:the population of the
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731:WikiProject Arab world
88:avoid personal attacks
2484:; Ghat in Libya; and
2470:Further noting that "
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1282:Western United States
1213:Neither A nor B, but
843:Lead Improvement Team
817:Lead Improvement Team
797:Lead Improvement Team
552:WikiProject Geography
447:WikiProject Geography
269:level-4 vital article
216:Auto-archiving period
113:Neutral point of view
2669:The addition of the
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2486:Faya-Largeau in Chad
837:list of participants
118:No original research
2671:Plazas de Soberania
2313:previous discussion
2306:Threaded Discussion
2224:outside assistance.
2073:Knowledge. Thanks.
1633:Nice map. Regards,
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2739:RfC regarding this
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1669:, opposite Europe.
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2372:elegant variation
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2107:WP:RFCCLOSE
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2407:repetitive
1996:agreement.
1797:Senorangel
1748:Pillowcrow
1708:Senorangel
1691:Senorangel
1594:. Regards,
1286:Senorangel
1246:Senorangel
1111:43,915,000
1095:8,144,000
1060:12,181,000
1028:42,027,000
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2724:Fayçal.09
2711:Fayçal.09
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2044:Thinker78
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1991:WP:RFCEND
1957:Thinker78
1906:Thinker78
1814:Thinker78
1762:Thinker78
1725:Thinker78
1676:Thinker78
1671:Regards,
1653:MOS:FIRST
1638:Thinker78
1603:Thinker78
1519:Thinker78
1496:Thinker78
1491:Regards,
1451:Thinker78
1415:Thinker78
1396:sentence.
1368:Thinker78
1363:Regards,
1258:Yes, but
1106:5,752,890
1092:8,971,000
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2262:M.Bitton
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2060:M.Bitton
2027:M.Bitton
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1929:M.Bitton
1876:M.Bitton
1834:M.Bitton
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1227:Mathglot
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2747:Skitash
2700:Skitash
2547:of the
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155:scholar
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2448:Sahara
2253:(talk)
2084:(talk)
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2018:(talk)
1963:(talk)
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1820:(talk)
1780:pillow
1768:(talk)
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1588:Sahara
1525:(talk)
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1335:pillow
1276:Maybe
1189:Survey
1143:Drmies
543:Assess
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347:Africa
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280:scale.
139:Google
2694:Sudan
2610:3 Oct
2584:3 Oct
2466:Niger
2353:!vote
1430:WP:OR
1101:Total
1079:Libya
951:Egypt
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668:Stubs
654:Photo
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182:JSTOR
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