2139:
authorities who rule leniently on xyz in manner abc. My problem with this (essentially quite redundant) approach is twofold: 1) It's really pretty awkward and weird to repeat so much. If we write, on the other hand, "same as
Orthodox, except" that's still awkward, and aggravates my second problem, viz.: 2) It really carries an implication of delegitimation to have Orthodox practice be what's stated first and have everything else be discussed with that as the baseline. On the other hand, my writing handled Conservative poskim the same way uniquely Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Gerer, etc. practices or opinions are mentioned about particular practices. This method doesn't privilege one POV (which in almost all English-language material on Judaism, is usually Ashkenazi (especially Polish) Orthodox) over any other, while stil making clear what are things that only some Sephardim do, some Conservatives do, some Charedim do, Gerers, etc.
2225:. The whole point of the work (both written and life-project) of founders of what we now call the Conservative movement was that 1) the modern-academic approach is compatible and positive in the study and practice of Judaism, and, by contrast, 2) the ossification of Jewish law and ideology represented by those traditionalists who rejected the haskalah out of hand (who formed what we now call the Orthodox community) were misrepresenting normative, historical Judaism. As an adherent of Frankel, Schechter, etc., I agree; if we were organising Knowledge according to my (Conservative) POV, the "practical law" section would refer exclusively to Conservative sources, with a separate section for "Orthodox" opinions and practices. But that would violate
1410:
Torah are not susceptible to ritual impurity, as the prophet (Jeremiah 23) cries out, "Is it not so that My words are like fire," says the Lord; and just as fire is not susceptible to ritual impurity, neither is Torah susceptible to ritual impurity'" (B.T. Brachot 22a), quoted in the
Jerusalem Post, Parashat Tazira: Blood sisters, Apr. 3, 2008, by Shlomo Riskin. As long as the hands are clean, so she doesn't carelessly soil the Torah, a woman can handle a Torah at any phase of her cycle, and there is therefore no revelation of her status either as Niddah or Tehorah. So there is no violation of modesty inherent in women becoming Rabbis or handling Torah scrolls.
1131:
by keeping track of her expected onset over the course of a couple or so months. (AMong
Chasidim this is far easier because they typically have seperated engagements of 1 yr; the Litvishe Maaseh of getting married after two months of contact makes it harder, but doable.) She looks for the days when she will be tahor and calculates her wedding day by when she will be tahor. Also, the bride and groom do go home together, they just take litte relatives with them. Like a niece and nephew. These relatives stay with the spouse of the same gender, and both spouses sleep in seperate rooms.
855:. Not only do non-Orthodox Jews sometimes make jokes, but so do many Orthodox Jews I have known, including Modern Orthodox and Lubavitch. And a (stunningly beautiful) non-Jewish ex-girlfriend of mine worked for a couple of summers in the Satmar Hasidic community, and was privy to (and sometimes the subject of) many such jokes. (For some reason, since she was non-Jewish, and pretty, the men didn't seem to think that regular laws of tzniout applied.) Maybe we can say that Jewish law codes hold that one does not make jokes about private bedroom matters; that would be more accurate.
564:
546:
1110:("hymenal" bleeding) ensues (in the majority of cases, first-time Orthodox brides are assumed to be virgins.) The percentage of women who do this in the Haredi community is quite high and it is ok'd by most Haredi rabbis. This is nothing new, it's been practiced since the pill was introduced on a mass commercial scale in the 1960s, and was shown to have very few side-effects, especially if taken for a very short duration of a few months.
2229:. Insomuch as halachic practice is much more uniform in the Orthodox community than in the Conservative one (not least because far more laypeople give a hoot in the former than the latter, something noted appropriately in this article and elsewhere), this is 1) really irrelevant, and 2) probably speaks against Orthodoxy as the indisputable straight continuation of "time-honed" premodern practices -- see not only Conservative,
964:"As society has rediscovered the importance of spirituality," Huh?? Cite some examples of society's rediscoverance of spirituality. I see no evidence of it here...perhaps you are living in another society... Or did you mean Jewish society? I am not qualified to comment on that, but I would assume the spirituality of the Jewish community is not that different from the community of the U.S. (or any other nation) as a whole.
345:
355:
327:
462:
243:
441:
222:
472:
253:
191:
671:
618:
3119:- in some ways exacting and esoteric articles are easier than overviews as you can cram in all explanatory sources, provisos, exceptions, local customs etc. -just be sure all sentence reflect what the sources say and don't generalise unless the sources do. It sounds like there are local variations etc. so find sources on all and build something
1978:
material, I'll think about how best to reword it. I agree that the text as it is straightforward and clear from the mechaber, but the distinction is, I think, important, and I doubt that R' Karo himself would really try to argue that a rule we learn as Rashi's personal practice is really of the same legal status as a decree of the Rabbis.
2964:
article is impossible. In addition, as a rabbi, I can tell you from personal experience that in Israel women who you would never have expected to do anything about being Jewish, and who indeed don't do almost anything, might still go to the mikveh. In short, the statement is untrue in its present form, and the sources do not support it.
2783:). And even if we didn't, it is not a reliable source. 2. This source does not contain the information that is comes to source. It only says "broad sectors of the Jewish community disregard or are ignorant of these laws" without specifying Ashkenazi or Sefaradi, and without mentioning the various degrees of observance below Orthodox.
2909:." That's rich. Here's a Reform "responsum" claiming that most Orthodox Jews don't keep taharat hamishpacha. But leaving aside that example of stunning ignorance (or propaganda; it's sometimes hard to tell what the source of misinformation is), that's a pretty clear source about niddah in the Reform Movement.
1097:" (it's not a desirable scenario, and is generally avoided, because the bride and groom do not go home together after their wedding, a rather unfortunate outcome for both) and that therefore many Orthodox women who are engaged to be married go to a doctor and receive a precsription for a dosage of a safe
3299:
I have no problem with the notion of making changes to this article. But some of the changes he makes are not good. Now if he were to make them step by step, we could revert just the problematic ones. Things I oppose are 1. the removal of alternative spellings 2. the use of capitals where such is not
2742:
For my part, I'm kind of surprised that
Debresser continued to revert my edit even after I gave a source. I'm not sure why he was so adamant about denying the fact, well known to everyone who is Jewish even if there weren't a source, that non-Orthodox Ashkenazi women, with rare exceptions, virtually
2550:
is simply proposing a unique standard for the
Conservative tendency in Judaism: every other religious group's normative beliefs and practices are recorded in the encyclopedia as they are expounded by the duly recognised religious authorities, but Conservative Jewish ones only if they're subscribed to
1332:
stuff. Most people never heard of the priestly code and the holiness code (didn't it used to be just the P document?) and it is irelevant to the subject of niddah. Why not just discuss leviticus where all this is written. Why is this viewed as two codes anyway one is the description of the reality of
1130:
Wait wait wait. Who does this? A person needs a heter to use birth control, and it requires serious risk of death, blindness or insanity. I've never heard of this in my life. The young girl plans her wedding like so. She calculates her menstration the same way a married woman does for nddah purposes,
1073:
Due to tzniut, at least some
Orthodox couples refrain from even the mildest PDA anyhow, so it's not a "problem" from that standpoint. I've definitely seen Jewish weddings where the bride and groom don't kiss, as well as ones where they do, I'm not sure that there's a "standard" other than the levels
2998:
Then put in a clarification that things are different in Israel and in the US. The statement was vague and unhelpful in its previous form. Furthermore, given that the majority of Jews do not live in Israel (at least Jews according to
Knowledge definition), if you want to tell us that your personal
1388:
I agree. The current, as it has been for quite a while, reads much like an
Orthodox Jewish manual, not an NPOV encyclopedia article. Also, encyclopedic content has repeatedly been deleted, and subtle attacks on non-Orthodox interpretations of Judaism have been substituted. Not good. I have tried
3283:
Debresser—I'm in favor of allowing
Marecheth Ho'eElohuth to make some major changes to the article, at least temporarily. I have confidence in the edits that I see being made. I am heartened by what I see as quality information being put in, and a reorganizing that seems to make sense. I see little
3181:
At the moment I see no reason to trim this article. There are guidelines for when an article should be split, and we haven't reached them here. In addition, the subject is presented here in its entirety, and splitting it into smaller article would mean loosing part of the present article's clarity.
2963:
We are talking about different things. In Israel the situation is very different, and even non-Orthodox people, including of
Ashkenazi decent, go to the mikveh. I agree as to the Conservative and Reform movements, but these are close to non-existent in Israel. Therefore, a general statement in this
2385:
I don't think the fact that this has tended to be the way articles have been written does (or ought to) carry weight here. Let's return to this after Shabbes, though I'm going to be moving on Sunday, and traveling a lot for the week or so after that, so my WP checking may be more sporadic than I'd
2261:
What is POV about that? Conservatism is a young movement in Judaism. It basic creeds are ill defined, and it has no unified line in its "halacha". Some choose to accept one thing, others another thing, and so on. No POV here. When you hear the 10 commandments on Shavuot, try consider that they have
2164:
diff, I side with Savant. Unless we're going to have a separate section titled "Niddah in the Gerrer community", to have one regarding the conservative community presents an undue POV. The phrasing used of "The _____ community rules on this matter _____" seems fine whether you fill the blank with
2138:
I see what you're proposing as entailing essentially this: We create a subheading under "Practical Law": Orthodox. In that subsection we have what there was before I added anything. New subsection: Conservative. We repeat essentially all the material, except cite that there are some Conservative
1977:
I'm certainly not a "very big rabbi", but I've seen enough dapim of the Shulchan Aruch to say with confidence that the words of the mechaber are by no means themselves sacrosanct. Nevertheless, I think that this argument is basically irrelevant. :) When and if I get around to finding the relevant
1883:
reverted my deletion of "passing of objects even without touching" as an harchaka "added by the sages". I deleted it as a personal custom (minhag) of Rashi, rather than an actual requirement of the Sages (derabbanan). I don't have the daf of the Talmud off the top of my head, but I am fairly sure
1827:
I've noticed that a lot of references to Niddah practice on this page are to the Mishneh Torah. These are certainly not valid sources for what people do today, which is the implication of how they're placed. They're certainly legit primary sources for the halacha, but not really the best even for
1377:
My suggestion would be to restructure the article by beginning with the Biblical rules, outline the role of the Talmud and classical commentaries, then outline the classical rules in one place, then discuss contemporary Orthodox practices, then outline the Conservative movement's views, then Reform
1030:
Happens all the time. Orthodox women try to take their cycles into account in planning their wedding day, but irregularities happen. A women who marries while a niddah can't consummate the marriage until after niddah ends and she immerses. Not the best situation, but part of being an Orthodox Jew.
1025:
Avi: There is actually nothing wrong with a woman being a niddah at her wedding. It can be uncomfortable for her but it is not forbidden. In some Orthodox circles engagements are very short (weeks, not months or years) so the timeframe is not necessarily a problem. Other women may choose to use
3405:
i cannot commit to getting to this page for another week or so, but in the coming week bez"h id like to spend a few hours over a few days contributing to this article to my ability. i will put up a "under construction" tag for the above mentioned time period and ask that no reverts are made till i
2928:
Now. If you want to ignore statements from the Conservative Movement that say Conservative Jews don't observe the laws of niddah, and statements from the Reform Movement that say Reform Jews don't observe the laws of niddah, I'm not sure what exactly you want in the way of reliable sources. Stop
2839:
I'll go further and say that in the face of the fact that this is common knowledge the way it's common knowledge that apples are a fruit (no source needed for that), the burden of proof is on Debresser, or anyone else who wants to contest it. Extraordinary claims, Debresser, require extraordinary
2421:
weight to the Conservative view. Again, any observance of niddah whatsoever is extremely fringe among Conservative Jews. To present the Conservative view here on equal par with the Orthodox view, when Orthodox Jews universally hold the observance of niddah to be an absolute requirement, would be
2356:
That is, to a large extent, the de facto status quo, indeed -- something I've been working a little on fixing myself. It's certainly not a standard of the MoS or anything, though, for the (what seems to me to be) obvious reason of NPOV. Note that I did, in fact, post there about our disagreement;
2292:
try to think about how the 10 (and other 603) commandments have been interpreted for many centuries and millennia (though not always "consistently"). I just don't think that it's consistent with that tradition of interpretation to insist that anyone who denies that one particular Rabbinic midrash
2123:
You know what, I agree with you. That was POV. But that is besiders the point. The point is that we have a section for Conservative views, and it is bad editing to add those two sentences about the Conservative point of view outside of that section. IMHO. And the additional problem of doing so, is
1758:
The statement "It initially was a custom of the pious, not a law for all" is not correct. However, it WAS initially a law for all: "The Biblical requirement of niddah is 7 days from the beginning of the menstrual period" (see "Duration of menstruation and niddah status"). I corrected the statement
1141:
You have not heard it, but it is true. And the problem with birth control inherent in such pills is taken care of by the rabbinical tradition that (with rare exeptions) "a woman does not get pregnant from the first intercourse". Apart from that, I'd like to correct you on 2 points: Chabad chasidim
830:
Conservative Judaism, a step(s) away from Torah faithfulness, does not enforce these laws communally but is attached enough to recognise them as being something Jewish and deeply rooted in Jewish heritage. Denominations of Judaism which adhere even less directly, if at all, to the Torah's teaching
2615:
I can't skim knowledgeably through all of this. But stating different points of view is fairly common in Christian articles. And yes, it is the same as Judaism, though I suspect that branches of Judaism are actually closer. Unfortunately, it seems a human vice that the closer we are in views, the
1899:
Sorry, but in any article on Judaism, the Shulchan Aruch is a reliable source, and it is decisive in Judaism. Saying that the Shulchan Aruch is wrong in its interpretation is original research at best, and unacceptable in normative Judaism in any case, so not relevant. For your information, it is
2523:
keeps those laws today. For the good folks at JTS to say that it's obligatory really has no meaning when they don't even make any serious effort to see to it that their laity is familiar with the concept. I say this as someone who was raised on the more knowledgable side of Conservative (Ramah
1409:
I've corrected a common misunderstanding, and perhaps either a deliberate or inadvertent slur, concerning contact with a Sefer Torah by a Niddah. Since a Torah is inherently holy, it canot become ritually impure, and cannot be defiled by a Niddah. R. Yehuda ben Beteira would often say, 'Words of
1221:. This article should be an overview, as it relates to family alone. Yes, Jewish laws of family purity is tied to Mikveh, and Menses, and Marriage, but that's not all. Threats to shalom bayit. Birth Control. Dishonest spouses. There is a gamut of things that have not been put in one place.
836:
When viewed from Torah law, births resulting from non-practicing Jews are considered "Ben or Bat Niddah". I.e. the child of a relationship where the parents where not practicing the laws of purity, and it is therefore assumed to be conceived at a time where conjugal realtions are prohibited. The
2518:
I would argue that Catholicism is irrelevant here. Different religions have different paradigms. I would argue further that a huge majority of Conservative Jews have never even heard of niddah. Unlike kashrut, which they have at least heard of, they don't know niddah from Abu-Nidal. You can
2104:
marginal is certainly the Orthodox view -- heck, it's basically why there is an "Orthodoxy" as such -- and should certainly be presented as such here, but it's definitely not okay as an organising principle of Knowledge -- and is, by the way, offensive. (This is, of course, not relevant to the
2029:
has objected to (and deleted) my placing of the word "many" in "It is used by many observant Jewish women to determine whether they have finished menstruation." I take it to be assumed here (not that I object to it) that "observant women" means here "women who observe Jewish law in the area of
2221:'s assertion that "Orthodox Judaism" constitutes "time-honed and more stable" traditions in contrast with Conservatisms "modern . . . varying and instable practises" (sic) is the Orthodox POV. Again, it must be stated where appropriate, but as an organising policy of Knowledge simply violates
3600:
The issue is not so much whether it is correct. It is simply superfluous. The article at present gives a simple and correct etymology, choosing the most relevant occurrence, and no more is needed. It is only confusing, superfluous, and also original research mostly, to give an overview of all
824:
Keeping the laws of purity promote acute awareness of sexuality and limit stagnation in relationships. However, they are also a challange for both man & woman alike to overcome basal urges. If one questions the authenticity of Judaism as a whole then compliance with these laws will appear
2554:
I really don't see what the objection is in terms of content: in talking about what the prescriptive practice is, we cite all notable authorities with appropriate labels. In talking about social trends of what Jews do, we cite that -- including, absolutely, that very few self-identified or
1425:
Your words are not the orthodox opinion, that sees a violation of modesty (and a sacrilige of the holiness of the Torah) not so much in the physical contact with the Torah, but in the role-changing involved when a woman starts fullfilling a function that has throughout Jewish history been a
779:
Great article. I have added the views of Conservative Judaism; since these are not accepted by Orthodoxy (and are obviously a change from how this practice has been understood for a long time) I tried to make it clear that this view was only found within parts of the Conservative movemment.
2188:
I disagree. Conservatism is a relatively modern movement in Judaism, with varying and instable practises. When writing about Judaism, we should stick to the traditions of Orthodox Judiasm, which are time-honed and more stable, and award sectons to the various related movements (including
1263:
enough to warrant a brief mention. Perhaps this may also be so regarding the view of Taharat HaMishpacha you espouse. Currently, however, no sources have been produced to confirm it, and the Conservative proposal for a conscious change of terminology tends to confirm the opposite. Best,
1884:
that what I said is correct: it is a personal custom of Rashi which gained popularity through the Tosafists and others. As far as I know, it is incorrect, then to state it as it is and conflate the two, even though I have no doubt that the Shulchan Aruch does, in fact, do just that.
2124:
that is makes it necessary to specify every time whether we are talking about Orthodox or Conservative point of view, which may come a little confusing, as in our case. So why not leave the Conservative point of view intheir section, perhaps enlarge them, and avoid the problems?
1954:
First of all, if commentaries by rabbinical authorities struggle to understand the words of the Shulchan Aruch, we may learn from that 1. to say "wrong" only in last resort 2. take care to be very big rabbis ourselves before we do so. I don't think you and I are up to that, are
2640:, the Judaism section is structured to include all opinions (and cites conservative responsa on Niddah). I'd like to see something similar here. The challenge (as pointed out above) is partly that there is a much larger body of information from the orthodox perspective.
2317:
between our POVs. I recognise your POV that Orthodoxy is premodern Judaism, continued, with the consistent line of interpetation, etc. It's notable and needs to be included. I'm just saying that it's not appropriate as an organising principle of Knowledge. Happy Shavuos!
3258:
it should be spelled without the "e", just Tvilah. I don't think 'Niddah" and "Family purity" should be separate articles, although I am open to hear your arguments, but I do think that "Niddah" should be a redirect to "Family purity", rather than the other way around.
2659:
I think here the way I did it makes sense to me: in the section on practical law, we have the law presented with disputes noted and ideological labels as appropriate. In areas where there's broader difference between the movements -- e.g., institutional responses to
3685:
Taking that further, there are dozens of References at the bottom of the article that use texts (Torah, Talmud, Shulchan Aruch, etc.) as references to themselves. This whole article would collapse on itself if we eliminated everything that isn't properly sourced.
2293:
about how the written Torah was written (i.e., Moses writing every letter at God's dictation) constitutes a dogma about an historical event, and that anyone who denies it is an heretic (which is the "Orthodox" position). I think that that Tradition supports the
1101:
that stops their menstrual period for a month or two during which time the actual marriage is scheduled to be held. They stop taking the pill a few days after the wedding night when, in most cases, the bride becomes a Niddah due to losing her virginity after her
2213:
of the time and remains a standard halacha lemaaseh guide in the Conservative community to this day. That it details the laws of niddah (and without any of the leniencies given in the recent responsa) seems quite noteworthy regarding Niddah in the Conservative
2309:'s and the rest of the Orthodox rabbinical groups', etc. My POV, and I think the mainline classical Conservative POV, is that Orthodoxy is a "young movement in Judaism", and, to go farther than most would like, is characterised primarily by its contempt for
3386:
Even I agree with you on that one. :) Would you mind making them one at a time? Or discussing them beforehand? Or even make a temporary subpage to review them before implementing here. I feel sure we can work this out, and I also am in favor of progress.
3436:
you make them. And if they are no good, I see no reason not to revert them even before they are finished. In general, since you see there is another editor who seems to have a problem with your edits, I think you really should consider getting consensus
2891:, out of the magazine Reform Judaism. "Others may wish to utilize the mikvah or other kinds of spiritual immersion not only for conversion but for periodic experiences of purification." That certainly doesn't sound like niddah is being observed at all.
2189:
Conservatism, Karaism and others) as relevant. Just imagine what would happen if we were to mention the various rulings and customs of each and every movement and community! As I see it, this is not a matter of personal preference, but of good editing.
1932:
on the Shulchan Aruch. That "passing objects without touching" is halacha I have no doubt is the view of maran hammachaber (the Shulchan Aruch itself), but the article implies that it's a derabbanan requirement like a Talmudic decree, not a matter of
3314:
Specifically, I had no problem with Marecheth Ho'eElohuth's most recent edit. I made a few technical fixes, and removed part of a sentence that was repeated and not relevant to that section, but in general found that a laudable and constructive edit.
754:
I have radically reduced the amount of links. Some linked articles were off the topic (this is on Niddah, not on sexuality in Judaism). Others were multiple links to the same resource. I have linked to the main resource pages, effectively reducing
1431:
There exists a custom that a woman should not look at a Torah scroll when she actually has blood (which is less than the time of her being Nidah). This is not a law, but a custom of piety. See Shulchan Aruch Harav 88, 2 and Mishnah Brurah 88, 6.
1937:(the halachic principle that "the custom of our ancestors is Torah"). This is, at best, controversial. If I bring sources to cite the controversy with maran hammachaber, will you object to changing the wording and citing that controversy?
1556:" mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Knowledge."
3578:
indeed, now that u mention it i do recall s/t to that effect. but perhaps we could reword to make the difference understood (as not to confuse with rashi about שלשה ימים אל תגשו אל אשה that we r concerned about ופולטת שכבת זרע מחמת טומאת
2168:
Regarding Klein's book, I agree with Debresser that it was out of place. Perhaps a section should be created for popular lit on the topic (Lamm, Klein, Zimmerman, Knohl). The only challenge I see to this is that it is just begging for
1843:
I retract that on further consideration and looking at it. They still aren't the best refs for halacha lemaaseh, but in context they're not bad and I shan't delete them. Anyone know where to find strikethrough in the new interface?
3253:
The "Ritual washing in Judaism" article at the moment combines washing the hands and immersing oneself in a Mikveh. These two issues should be split, and the latter could be called "Tvilah". On a sidenote, I think that according to
1791:
This paragraph has an incomplete ending: Either the word "concerning" should be deleted or someone add the appropriate ending to: "The term is overwhelmingly used in Judaism to refer to the rules of Jewish law concerning..." What?
2030:
niddah." Debresser objected, in his edit summary, that "Also, Io though Conservative has its own section. Why mix them back in in every place?" The context of the article here is clearly that of contemporary practical law (
1008:
I suppose as a purely practical matter a woman can't be niddah on her wedding day and night. But how is she to know far enough ahead of time to plan the wedding whether or not she's going to be niddah on a particular day?
2812:
I'm honestly also very surprised at your objection, Debresser; it would seem to me that Lisa's edit is uncontroversial. I agree entirely with her that (as much as it pains me) very few non-Orthodox Jews observe niddah.
2616:
harder it is to understand disagreement. Catholics find it easy to talk to Baptists and Jews, whose views are "somewhat" divergent from Catholicism. Not so easy to talk to Orthodox whose views are nearly identical!
2276:
Respectfully, I'm having an hard time reading your reply as having much more content than "uh-uh". Rabbinic Judaism generally hasn't had "well-defined creeds", or a "unifed line" of halacha. That Rabbinic Judaism
2644:'s comment on the Judaism discussion board is a valid one but I'm not sure how to best implement it. Can people propose a structure here and once there is consensus on the structure, implement it in the article?
2416:
normative among Conservative Jews, it seems fairly obvious that the Orthodox view should be presented as the default, with the Conservative view mentioned in a section of its own. To do otherwise would be giving
3541:
I have deleted the following sentence: "Because the leaking of semen nullifies the counting of a "clean" day, the Sages enacted that the counting of seven days not begin until a minimum of 72 hours has passed".
3162:
In addition, there seem to be a few concepts repeating themselves (at times even more than twice). I have placed a "under construction" template on the page and invite others to help remove redundant content.
2610:
If sect x believes xx. That should be reported. Probably Orthodox first, since it was first chronologically. Then one can say that sect y believes yy. X mandates bathing.(ref) Y does not mandate bathing.(ref)
1958:
I can not, and will not object to adding sourced material. I do think that bringing a controversy about a halacha in the Shulchan Aruch is too much detail for this article. Agreeing with you that the precise
1452:
The statements made are based on limited scholarship, without citation, and do not indicate at all that there are Halachic explanations. I corrected to reflect that this section is based non-Orthodox bias.
2057:
I solved the problem in another way, easier a lot. We already have a section for Conservative views. The main body of the text is about normative, orthodox, Judaism. So no need to specify that every time.
1389:
to improve the article by including some discussion with references on historical study, and on the responsa within the Conservative movement. (Much of it had been in the article before, and was deleted.)
1142:
also typically wait only a few months between the engagement and the chuppah; all the calculations of the girl are messed up by her anticipation of the marriage, which wrecks havoc on her menstrual cycle.
1048:
her husband, right? How can they hold hands during the ceremony, or kiss at the end, or dance at the reception? (I don't know if any of those are customary at Orthodox weddings anyway, but if they are...)
153:
811:, an editor's unsourced, strongly-worded, clearly partisan opinion, presented as fact. No factual information or other encyclopedic information provided. Am removing to talk page and it's listed below. --
2519:
reduce that enormous -- overwhelming -- majority a bit by saying "family purity" instead of niddah, but I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of Conservative Jews are entirely unaware that
1951:
Always nice to discuss with you, Savant1984. But I wish you'd stop redoing your edits in the mean time. After all, they are your innovations. Now that they are challenged, please first defend them.
2412:
I don't know whether Orthodox Judaism is the default in articles on Judaism here. I suspect it isn't. But in an article about a practice which is normative among Orthodox Jews, and definitely
1963:
of that ruling is subject of discussion, I urge you to leave the text like it is, which is straightforward and uncomplicated. If you stilll feel you have to, perhaps delegate it to a footnote.
2721:. Sort it out here and invite folks from the relevant wikiproject to discuss. I add that I haven't a clue about the subject but please discuss here before moving forward (in 24 hours time)
1259:
articles, where the "Eco-Kosher" view that the term "Kashrut" shouldn't be limited to dietary laws but should encompass views of ethical relations with the environment as a whole was found
2885:, out of Kenyon College. "Most Conservative and Reform Jews do not incorporate this aspect of Judaism into their life; it is mainly Orthodox Jewish families that practice niddah laws."
2084:. The founding thesis of the Conservative/Positive-Historical/Masorti approach is precisely that academic approach to Torah study and having that influence one's perception of Judaism
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It occurs to me that it's nearly Shavuot in the land of Israel by this time. I'm in the Diaspora, so I'll be offline until Thursday night at the earliest. Chag sameach to all Jews!
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required immersion in running water among other special niddah practices, although I understand that upon immigration to Israel their practices have become more assimilated. Best, --
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I have disputed the neutrality of this section as I feel that it uses a tone that suggests condemnation and may not be in the spirit of both Knowledge's neutrality policy as well as
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Most certainly not. :) I disagree with you based on this de facto default, with which I agree, and also based on the more "technical" arguments of good editing, as specified above.
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are more or less arbitrarily divided between the latter two categories. There are still traces of a binary divide between "Orthodox Judaism" and "Progressive Judaism": in this area
1247:, ritual purity, and has a well-established meaning of those aspects of ritual purity that apply within families. Because of this well-established meaning, there was a proposal in
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I'm not sure about the technical answer to your question, but in everyday conversation I think either of the first 2 would be ok. I think the second one is actually more common.
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If she notices a bloodstain of uncertain origin, for example on her underclothing, there are a series of complicated criteria used by rabbinical law to determine whether she is
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my oposition. But this is not a matter of counting votes, but of logic. Do as you please, but I think that discussion is almost per definition the best path of action. See also
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Not really. Your source is valid only for the US and other places with a relatively strong Conservative or Reform population. You should have changed the sentence accordingly.
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There is a dispute regarding the inclusion of an external link to www.mymikvahcalendar.com. I don't think it's clear cut, but I'm inclined to allow the link for a few reasons:
2038:. I have currently replaced "many" with a sentence at the end of the paragraph noting that this is, indeed, required by all Orthodox authorities. (The difficulty of finding
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But now I did, and I have two comments: 1. If I am not mistaken we discussed this source before in relation with Judaism articles, and decided that it is not reliable (see
2879:, out of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. "One area of Jewish law practiced by many Orthodox Jews but ignored by most Conservative Jews is family purity."
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by only a small percentage even within the Orthodox community. The practice has been further hindered by endless Orthodox debates about the technical requirements of
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I noticed this before, but didn't look into it. After reading this post I looked it up and saw that one word somehow got lost in one of the revisions. Fixed.
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Adherence to these laws are viewed as the best present one can bestow upon the unborn child - giving them the best most 'kosher' start in life, at conception.
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The current article is written in classical historic fashion of "Bible", "Rabbinic literature" and "Modern Judaism". The result is that the Orthodox laws of
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2480:. All Conservative authorities agree that niddah is obligatory. It is normative as a matter of practical law. Where we talk about what people actually
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because so few people will actually agree with him or care, even if by affiliation or self-indentification they recognise his authority? By the standard
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subject of medieval debate was innacurate and deleted. There are several debates and Im not sure which the author was refering to. thus did not correct.
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3368:'s focus, everyone agrees it is easier being freinds with the "revert" button than the "edit" one -but here we'd like to see some good contribution. --
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2468:-- the great majority of lay Catholics neither know nor care. Is citing the Pope's view of a Catholic theological matter in an article a violaton of
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1202:(the article focuses on menstruation laws, though there are many applicablities to family life and marriage that are left out. Here is a good book:
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that, as far as contemporary halacha lemaaseh is concerned. Head's up -- as such, I plan to delete them soon with tags for appropriate sources.
2341:, because the de facto default in all general Judaism articles is the orthodox point of view, with sections or ammendments for other movements.
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difficult at best. As such, compliance with the laws of purity is viewed as a high degree of observence in all denominations of Jewish practice.
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that they should be written in italics, as indeed is done in part of the article. It would make sence to make one edit just to fix this issue.
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And one can quite easily get most any lay Roman Catholic to commit material heresy on any one of dozens of dogmas, including ones which carry
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2313:-- the halachic prohibition on sectarianism. Ultimately, however, our debate about this is irrelevant to Knowledge; Knowledge needs to be
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Currently all the sections are the same level, even some with similar subject matter aren't grouped. I won't be hurt by any changes, just
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has been undertaken by liberal Jewish authorities. The custom has fallen into disuse, but was never actually rejected. It is followed for
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article with a direct link to this page as the main article on the subject. Niddah is the common word and there is no reason to move. --
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I am not sure that is the correct interpretation of their words, nor that they haven't changed their mind in the mean time, perhaps even
2897:, out of the Central Conference of American Rabbis (the rabbinic arm of the Reform Movement). "Except in a cursory way, no discussion of
705:. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see
652:. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see
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2484:, we should of course note (and we do in this article) that very few self-identified or affiliated Conservative Jews follow these laws.
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the only respondent has agreed with me. Does this mean that you concede the point, though, and we have consensus to restore my edits?
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In the interest of keeping this discussion from going totally all over the place on the page, I'm going to continue it above as well.
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strongly about the inclusion of Klein, but I think it's in there because it was compiled by one of the pre-eminent halachists of the
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If its important to you. But I do think ou should keep it in a footnote, because of ]. Most sources connsider it undisputed halacha.
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as I find this hard to believe and it's been there for eight years unsourced. If this is true, it should be easy to confirm, right?
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screwing around and edit warring about something that's so obviously true, it took me only a few minutes to find those sources. -
3682:"I find this hard to believe and it's been there for eight years unsourced. If this is true, it should be easy to confirm, right?"
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I agree with debresser on this one. many jewish women who are otherwise not religious do indeed make a point of mikvah immersion--
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I also think they are good enough, since they are the factual basis for many modern halachot, and use clear and concise language.
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I'm surpised that no-one here has mentioned that when a Jewish bride is a Niddah at her wedding the entire ceremony is called a "
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It is true nevertheless. The connection is that the sages worried that perhaps a drop of blood might be conceiled in the semen.
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I also think the way I did it makes sense. There is a speial section for it. I argued this in detail above, please see there.
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child may have certain legal restrictions and may have a character that shows signs of an uncouth or boorish inclination.
1251:(described in the Niddah article) to stop using the term "family purity" and substitute "family holiness". If you have
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by most of their laity. It frankly seems to me be such a transparent violation of our NPOV pillar as to beyond debate.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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2664:-- I think it makes sense to have wholly different sections. Here, though, it would just be awkward and redundant.
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274:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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will (hopefully) ensure material stays on the page for longer and hopefully solve some arguments. Just saying....
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beliefs and practices of self-identified adherents of a religous group constitute what we should consider the
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been interpreted consistently for many centuries and millenia, and connect to those roots. Happy holiday. :)
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If we understand the hebrew, niddah is a descriptive. As such option 1 is correct, similar to "I am white".
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niddah and one is the laws and punishments related to it. It sounds like just two chapters of the same code?
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or not; the woman herself is not expected to know these criteria, and must seek the assistance of a
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and secular authors on the topic, but also Haim Soloveitchik's famous "Rapture and Reconstruction".
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that some people use the term differently, the article can mention this. An analogous case is the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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affiliated Conservative Jews give a hoot. But the latter doesn't make the former "meaningless".
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water is never required. This seems to be a common misconception. I will slowly fix the errors.
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btw, the etymology of niddah that was here yesterday seemed okay to me..no reason to revert --
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As we rabbis like to joke: you can't even beat your wife with a stick while she is niddah. :)
1682:. We are written in English, not Hebrew; there is a Hebrew Knowledge for those who prefer it.
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nb: meta-commentary like this always belongs on the talk page. I'm redirecting the article to
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reason why you should not let these changes stand for the duration of at least several days.
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do is irrelevant to the matter of practical law, which is what the section is about. If the
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Chabad or Jewish Renewal. The material should be divided according to topic, not community.
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experience as a rabbi in Israel differs, the burden of proof is very definitely on you. -
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Um, respectfully, Debresser, saying the Shulchan Aruch is wrong is the 3/4 time job of the
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Personally, I can't stand extraneous external links, but in this case I think it belongs.
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This link is useful, it is content-relevant, and there aren't excessive links on the page.
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That will be worth noting indeed, as soon as you can bring a source for that information.
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is demonstrably the loan word; if you wish to make that distinction, edit the article.
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There are a lot of mistakes and inaccuracies in this area of the article. For example
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for specifics already listed on this page and for more information that is lacking.
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A couple of Knowledge editors seem to have a fetish of taking every reference to the
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Agree the material that was added to the end of this section is a clear violation of
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compatible with normative Judaism. It's a major theme of the work of gedolim like
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1703:. The term and its scope are so clear and obvious, there is a section in the main
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Could the above anonymous user please sign his comments with the four ~~~~ tildes.
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generally do not expect any adherence to these laws or practices nor focus on them.
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One thing that I tried to change was the use of capitals for words in hebrew. See
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Sorry for opening a new thread before checking existing ones. After looking over
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for matters of consensus among Orthodox posekim I leave for another discussion.)
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come on and retouch, add and change as needed. gentlemen, do i have approval?--
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Noticing the extensive page length, I propose creation of the additional pages (
2790:. It is clear Knowledge policy that the burden of proof is on her in this case.
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I respectfully disagree. "Family purity" is a quasi-translation of the hebrew
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Anectodal and suspect evidence is not a basis for editing a Knowledge article.
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I made one deletion: "Jews do not make jokes about private bedroom matters."
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seem in favor of my contributing w/o having your seal of approval beforhand--
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for your support! its always good to get a boost from folks once in a while..
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But because I'm such a nice person, I'll offer up some other sources for you.
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is distinctly different from both in theory (although less so in practice).
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This will probably sound more clueless, than helpful. But it is neutral! :)
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On the whole, I personally try to avoid level 4 headers. Good work, though.
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In short, this source has to go, and so does the change Lisa introduced in
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if held intentionally. I don't see the difference. As far as I can tell,
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Stub. Here's the scope: right now, the concept of tahara (purity) goes to
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There seems to be a fair amount of identical text between this article and
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2109:-- but I hope that people will keep it in mind in discussion.) Reverted.
380:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
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Ok folks. I locked this up for 24 hours before anyone does anything they
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remove the tag, at which point i'd (or should i say we'd?) like to see
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It's worth noting that although outside the topic of Rabbinic Judaism,
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etc. Will await comments before any attempt at rearrangement. Best, --
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different: we can't possibly, for example, explain the dogma of the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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and turning it into a reference to one of the documents in the
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Whoa, Debresser, to say that contemporary Orthodox Judaism is
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of modesty demanded by the couple's particular community. --
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has not much to do with zavah..(or nidah for that matter)--
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Doesn't sound good. I'd prefer a discussion of your edits
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in particular (but really all religions), ought to look
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I dont know which came first or which copied the other
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I want to note that I've reported this dispute at the
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as normative Cathlic belief, or the official Catholic
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Respectfully, what Jews (of whatever stripe) actually
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you make them. Sounds like the sensible thing to do.
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Non-Orthodox historical study of the seven extra days
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Hmm, looks like this can go into the article now...
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Blood, Gender and Power in Judaism and Christianity
1664:only refers to a specified period of the month. --
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422:This article has not yet received a rating on the
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2743:never observe any kind of niddah whatsoever. -
757:Niddah probably needs no more than three links.
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
3222:)). I do propose creation of separate pages on
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2281:dogmas and laws is of course, true -- I think
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3616:(jumps up on soapbox and picks up megaphone)
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2217:Back to the more important issue:
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1089:Chupas Niddah versus the pill
775:Views of Conservative Judaism
583:and see a list of open tasks.
506:Template:WikiProject Feminism
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405:Template:WikiProject Religion
284:Knowledge:WikiProject Judaism
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2713:Fully protected for 24 hours
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19:This is the
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2454:Catholicism
2231:Progressive
2171:WP:LINKSPAM
1762:—Preceding
1726:Tzu Zha Men
1641:Vegaswikian
1639:Not moved.
1478:—Preceding
1108:dam betulim
872:—Preceding
755:duplicates.
730:—Preceding
720:plagiarism?
707:its history
654:its history
148:free images
31:not a forum
3705:Categories
3650:I removed
3507:in view of
2815:Savant1984
2694:Savant1984
2666:Savant1984
2592:Savant1984
2557:Savant1984
2486:Savant1984
2388:Savant1984
2359:Savant1984
2320:Savant1984
2305:'s or the
2249:Savant1984
2235:Savant1984
2141:Savant1984
2111:Savant1984
2102:ipso facto
2044:Savant1984
2014:Bedikah: "
1980:Savant1984
1939:Savant1984
1886:Savant1984
1846:Savant1984
1830:Savant1984
1794:Paleocon44
1768:Myrrhmayde
1692:PMAnderson
1574:WP:SPAMMER
1552:WP:NOTLINK
1351:. Best, --
1335:Benignuman
1330:hypothesis
1285:Benignuman
678:Ben niddah
3603:Debresser
3566:Debresser
3515:Debresser
3443:Debresser
3408:Debresser
3389:Debresser
3366:Debresser
3336:Debresser
3317:Debresser
3302:Debresser
3261:Debresser
3256:WP:HEBREW
3184:Debresser
3043:Debresser
2966:Debresser
2792:Debresser
2788:this edit
2767:Debresser
2680:Debresser
2450:normative
2373:Debresser
2343:Debresser
2264:Debresser
2219:Debresser
2214:movement.
2191:Debresser
2126:Debresser
2078:very much
2060:Debresser
2027:Debresser
1994:Debresser
1965:Debresser
1916:Debresser
1902:Debresser
1900:halacha.
1881:Debresser
1860:Debresser
1809:Debresser
1709:AFriedman
1607:Debresser
1528:Debresser
1434:Debresser
1310:Debresser
1144:Debresser
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3634:contribs
3624:Casliber
3469:Bus stop
3353:Bus stop
3286:Bus stop
3220:contribs
3202:redirect
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3127:Casliber
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2723:Casliber
2662:mamzerut
2618:Student7
2534:contribs
2478:WP:UNDUE
2470:WP:UNDUE
2432:contribs
2299:mamzerut
2211:Seminary
1776:contribs
1764:unsigned
1662:"Niddah"
1492:contribs
1480:unsigned
1412:Lee-Anne
1225:See also
1031:Best, --
917:JNDRLINE
891:stubbing
732:unsigned
683:deletion
630:deletion
500:Feminism
491:Feminism
447:Feminism
399:Religion
377:Religion
333:Religion
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3351:Thanks
3224:Tevilah
2899:tevilah
2544:anethma
2446:popular
2315:neutral
2227:WP:NPOV
2223:WP:NPOV
2082:WP:NPOV
2036:WP:NPOV
1722:no move
1705:Judaism
1666:Xyz7890
1563:WP:ELNO
1550:As per
1457:grammer
1281:running
1261:notable
1257:Kashrut
1207:Tzeniut
1076:Batshua
874:comment
809:WP:SOAP
796:Batshua
527:on the
308:on the
281:Judaism
272:Judaism
228:Judaism
199:B-class
154:WP refs
142:scholar
3654:niddah
3511:WP:BRD
3439:before
3434:before
2907:miqveh
2903:niddah
2840:proof.
2719:regret
2646:Joe407
2521:anyone
2386:like.
2175:Joe407
2096:, and
1961:status
1787:NIDDAH
1684:Niddah
1654:Niddah
1594:(talk)
1514:(talk)
1426:man's.
1368:Niddah
1245:Tahara
1215:Negiah
1211:Yichud
1200:Niddah
1196:mikveh
1179:phoebe
1173:Niddah
703:Niddah
699:merged
650:Niddah
646:merged
205:scale.
126:Google
25:Niddah
3658:rabbi
3200:as a
2458:a lot
2419:undue
2040:WP:RS
1345:Bible
1133:Shia1
1104:hymen
1046:touch
935:: -->
701:into
695:merge
648:into
642:merge
586:Women
577:women
552:Women
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3692:talk
3669:Soap
3628:talk
3607:talk
3591:talk
3579:קרי.
3570:talk
3555:talk
3547:keri
3519:talk
3481:talk
3471:and
3447:talk
3416:talk
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3122:good
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3005:talk
3001:Lisa
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2781:here
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2016:many
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1122:IZAK
1112:IZAK
987:IZAK
975:T@lk
950:T@lk
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868:talk
768:T@lk
740:talk
711:here
658:here
388:and
386:good
300:High
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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3204:to
2636:In
2414:not
2279:has
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2076:is
2020:all
1955:we?
1177:--
970:JFW
945:JFW
870:)
763:JFW
685:.
632:.
519:Mid
418:???
390:1.0
176:TWL
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1057:gr
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