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Talk:Southern Methodist University

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number of non-Honors students read the campus publication Hilltopics, which was founded by an all-Honors editing staff. During any given semester, roughly 1/6 to 1/7 of the undergraduate student body participates in Honors courses. Nearly all Honors students share common learning experiences since they are all required to take Honors Rhetoric I and II, courses that cover a broad array of authors and modern philosophical thinkers. UHP students also attend the Gartner Lecture series and social events together as a group. Thus, for a large portion of the student body at SMU, Honors provides a cohesive, intellectual environment that encourages extra-curricular involvement and a life of the mind.
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clear policy, the addition of relatively limited image galleries for very prominent alumni and faculty has become a norm for university pages. The photos and captions are not decorative but informative, as institutions of higher education are composed not just of the people who have taught and learned there. That these galleries have emerged as a norm is a clear demonstration of their usefulness and relevancy--as is the fact that I put these galleries together based on information from Darwin Payne's
376: 349: 1171:, the images are clearly not "decorative" (consulting a big dictionary might help some here) but illustrative. When I retrieved the gallery from the history, it was both smaller & more distinguished than I had feared. It seems fully in line with policy, for a large university. Galleries are actually a good approach, after maybe spreading some images around, and have long been the standards on visual arts articles, including FAs. But some editors still have a prejudice against them. 386: 479: 710: 303: 278: 634: 607: 545: 527: 1486:) would be more helpful as this is an issue in many articles and not just this one. In fact, we're long overdue for a broader discussion about these sections ("Notable people." "Notable alumni," etc.) in general, including the role and placement of relevant images. I would strongly support suspending this RfC to hold a project-wide RfC on this topic or the broader topic of these embedded lists. 644: 216: 1272:, because they had little relevance to this article. The article is about a university; it is not a stand-alone list of notable people who have attended. Moreover, all of the photos were taken hundreds of miles away from the university, and none of the photos showed any part of the university, so how can these photos "collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject", per 491: 1602:(and WP:PUFF also applies, the articles are not meant to be advertisement brochures for the schools). Exactly what added value does a gallery provide beyond a textual list of the same people, that would balance the increased size and loading time of the article, the visual distraction, and the limit on the amount of text under each picture compared to what is possible in a list? 247: 1116:. Until the university project does achieve a definitive consensus on this issue, I would propose that unless a gallery creates actual issues in a particular case (e.g. disputes over prominence), it be permitted to follow the informal norms established by the aforementioned entries (including, like I mentioned, the featured article on 1664:. Like Seraphimblade I am convinced that this places undue weight on individual persons and their physical appearance: which has nothing to do with the Uni. I also think that alumni should only be included if they have a significant connection to the school as discussed in RS and not just because we can verify their attendance. ( 1108:)! The Stanford consensus makes sense, though from browsing some other university pages and giving this more thought, I am still partial to the view that these galleries can be a valuable, accessible, and streamlined way to center people as constitutive of the university, which is far more than a campus. I went and re-read 1459:
My preference would be to (a) include images of people - faculty, staff, students, and others - in relevant sections of the article with a handful of images used in this specific section (instead of trying to stack up a whole bunch of them in just this section, whether that's in a gallery or not) and
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Galleried lists of people, especially living people, are different and the standard has been to avoid them. University, sports-team and entertainment pages attract "fans" prone to adding a lot of non-encyclopedic information (such as photo galleries), so the mere fact that it's sometimes done should
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the definitive history and overview of the university. Unsurprisingly, much of the book is devoted to notable faculty and alumni. Having read other dated discussions on the gallery issue, I believe the standard objections are baseless: there is no evidence that they cause formatting issues or produce
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With respect for your position, I would urge you to reconsider your stance on a feature that has emerged as a common enhancement of university pages. The discussion you link to doesn't show a rough consensus but an open disagreement--and from four years ago. Since then, without the establishment of a
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weight. There is a lot of encyclopedic information to cover about the university. A single prominent alum may rise to the level of importance of warranting a mention as part of the noted people list, but they aren't so important that a whole bunch of them need photos. I also agree with the IP above
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One of the primary purposes of a college or university, at least in the modern U.S. liberal arts tradition, is to education people. An article about a college or university with little or no information about the people who are educated and the people who educate them is criminally incomplete and a
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Mainly there because nearly a third of the article focuses on sport, and is dealt with in what I would call unnecessary detail for an encyclopedia article. The list of facilities is also extremely long and detailed; perhaps this is usual for articles on U.S. Universities and Colleges, I'm not sure.
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Less-informative pictures of buildings should indeed be discouraged compared to pictures of iconic, famous or architecturally distinguished pieces of the campus (or a representative sample of ordinary buildings showing what the place looks like). But with pictures of people, we know that there is
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I look forward to continuing this conversation, but in the meantime I am re-adding and improving the galleries. I think that in the absence of a genre-wide consensus, there is precedent, an established norm, and informational benefits to their inclusion. I am glad to remove them (or support their
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on just the fact that certain people happened to go to school there. Ideally, I would want to see "Notable alumni" sections moved away from lists of people who happened to attend there, and instead discuss in prose those students for whom attendance at the institution was a significant factor in
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The photos and captions are not decorative but informative, as institutions of higher education are composed not just of the people who have taught and learned there. That these galleries have emerged as a norm is a clear demonstration of their usefulness and relevancy--as is the fact that I put
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I added information relating to the University Honors Program. The UHP is the 3rd largest organization on campus (after Residence Life & Student Housing and Panhellenic organizations), at around 1000 participants. It noticeably affects the quality of life on campus - for instance, a large
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about the photos of people in that article reached a rough consensus to avoid galleries and instead focus on adding images of alumni, faculty, staff, and other people in sections of the article where their contributions or impact is most relevant. That might be a helpful approach here.
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If the photo galleries are functioning as advertising for the schools that is another reason to not include. It gives the articles the flavor of a brochure and is a lure for fans, alumni and paid editors to slant the page and compete in a literal beauty pageant against other schools.
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to the school's website. Someone, probably affiliated with the school, continues to add promotional and detailed contact which is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article. Feel free to remove such detail sections which are not supported by references as required.
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This page clearly identifies that Jay McGraw attended this University. It also describes in detail the many accolades of this school. However, I do not see where Mr. McGraw earned a degree from this higher educational establishment, or any other for that matter.
1301:. A university is not a collection of buildings. It is, mostly, people. To not represent them is a disservice to the university. A gallery, though, is not necessary. One can also include photos of people in the sections in which they are mentioned. 1648:
their lives, as specifically confirmed by reliable sources. Additionally, there is a "List of Foo College People" article for this school, so some images could be put there instead. Even if there weren't, however, I'd still oppose such a gallery.
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Images of people should be added to the sections where they are most relevant, not just concentrated in one place in one section. And there should be some kind of reasonable, transparent criteria for the people and images that are included.
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removal) if there are ever significant disputes over who should be included or if a wider consensus is reached, by I see little evidence from other pages that this will come to pass. Further, I believe the benefits are significant.
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these galleries together based on information from Darwin Payne's One Hundred Years on the Hilltop, the definitive history and overview of the university. Unsurprisingly, much of the book is devoted to notable faculty and alumni.
1427:). Second, ElKevbo, this RfC is not about whether we should add information about people; it is about whether we should add their photo in a gallery at the end of the article. In other words, how does NOT including this photo of 166: 771:. Note that " /" at the end of the repeated links. That gives one same index number for each occurrence (which will no longer annoy the reader who already clicked five times on a different index number to find always the same 817:, which states that we should minimize the number of external links. The official website is where readers should be directed - there they can find a list of schools and departments with the appropriate links. Knowledge is 1489:
I completely disagree, however, with the assertion that this RfC is inappropriate or its results cannot be used because it's limited to one article. In the absence of a larger consensus, local consensus is just fine.
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to not add galleries. Moreover, the photos that were removed had been taken in places far from the university, and did little to "collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject", per
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Thanks. I continued to believe that it would be of much greater utility to have a discussion about advice and a general approach for all college and university articles instead of just this one.
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is not in chronological order, it is in alphabetical order, and it is even more unnecessary than the gallery in this article because all those images at the Harvard article should be moved to
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disagreements over who is "prominent." Further, some cite images of buildings as relevant but people as not--to me, this suggests narrow and unhelpful view of what a university is.
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A single discussion from four years among a few editors with no clear consensus is not a very strong argument for reverting another editor's good faith edits. A more recent
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
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The RfC is about a gallery inside the article. So your !vote appears to actually be "No" to the RfC question, but "Yes" to having images in separate list articles.
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No, it's not usual. I've had to revert addition of multiple promotional external links to every department of the school multiple times. That violates
1239:. Local consensus at one school's Talk page can't decide a stylistic question that affects thousands of other school articles. A better location is 1377:
profound disservice to readers. Therefore it is completely reasonable for editors to discuss whether and how best to include images of those people.
850: 428: 1831: 1811: 666: 509: 309: 283: 970:, because this article is about a university, and it is not a stand-alone list of notable people who have attended. There was a rough consensus 1876: 1856: 552: 532: 1789: 1688:, I think the photos add to my appreciation of the University. When I see several photos in a list of politicians I've heard about, I think, 1509: 1030: 98: 1112:, and I am encouraged by the fact that the galleries I have been building are very similar to the example presented of a well-made gallery-- 181: 935: 930: 148: 1836: 920: 900: 399: 354: 1779: 876: 1715: 1603: 1361: 1328: 1252: 1191: 657: 612: 411: 1420: 1227: 1050: 768:. That produced a cluttered References section. One could improve this by using named references, e.g. <ref name=coxranking: --> 1215:. Unfortunately that lead is useless so we only have a link. I don't think there is a need to illustrate this section in any way. 1113: 1599: 1567: 1345:. In chronological order they tell a story of influence. I think pictures of SMU people could do the same, especially for Texas. 1797: 1783: 1826: 1505: 142: 112: 43: 1360:
literally zero information conveyed about the school beyond what is written in text about the person. It is purely clutter.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
226: 1793: 1281: 1082: 857:'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for 1584:
That is not nearly precise enough to be useful here - I think they entirely meet it, & you clearly don't.
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where it first occurs, and then at each further location in the article simply <ref name=coxranking /: -->
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not license the same across Knowledge or turn it into a precedent. WP:GALLERY and WP:PUFF are relevant.
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I agree with our unregistered colleague that a broader discussion at a more centralized location (e.g.,
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Of course, the Harvard alumni gallery is in chrono order. The faculty gallery is not, you are correct.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article has several series of indexed references that go to an identical source, such as
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What information is conveyed by pictures of buildings? Have a look at the galleries at
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Should the Notable People section contain galleries of notable faculty and alumni?
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to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
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The photos of people, unlike photos of the campus, provide no information
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Knowledge:Manual of Style/Images#Pertinence_and_encyclopedic_nature
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There already is an inclusion criteria for images in article at
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I am looking at Jay McGraw's Knowledge page. I'm very confused.
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This topic spans multiple projects. I have posted this RfC at
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this issue should be considered at a more generalized forum
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Reference named "colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com":
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in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
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on Knowledge. Please visit the project page to join the
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Knowledge talk:College and university article guideline
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Wikipedia_talk:College_and_university_article_guideline
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I removed multiple images of former students added by
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There has also been a rough consensus 601: 521: 343: 272: 766:http://www.cox.smu.edu/aboutcox/rankings/ 1053:last month, with noted issues including 1776:2600:1700:F8F0:1830:C815:11C4:4732:3848 603: 523: 345: 324:Knowledge:WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth 274: 244: 1817:High-importance United States articles 1054: 881:Colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com 582:Knowledge:WikiProject Higher education 327:Template:WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth 1867:C-Class Methodism work group articles 1852:WikiProject Higher education articles 1510:Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Images 1031:Massachusetts Institute of Technology 585:Template:WikiProject Higher education 7: 1862:Low-importance Christianity articles 1284:to NOT include galleries of alumni. 966:. The photos were decorative, per 931:University of Maryland, College Park 655:This article is within the scope of 550:This article is within the scope of 397:This article is within the scope of 308:This article is within the scope of 1017:(note this is a featured article), 444:Knowledge:WikiProject United States 263:It is of interest to the following 36:for discussing improvements to the 1842:WikiProject United States articles 1415:First, Attic Salt, the gallery at 1398:File:Lamar Hunt 1972 (cropped).jpg 1268:- The photos were decorative, per 675:Knowledge:WikiProject Christianity 447:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 1882:WikiProject Christianity articles 1847:C-Class Higher education articles 1421:List of Harvard University people 996:One Hundred Years on the Hilltop, 678:Template:WikiProject Christianity 1568:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Images 958:Image gallery of former students 926:(2018). Retrieved Sept 13, 2017. 747:added Honors Program information 642: 632: 605: 543: 525: 489: 384: 374: 347: 301: 276: 245: 214: 58:Click here to start a new topic. 1506:Knowledge talk:Image use policy 1114:Women's suffrage in New Zealand 695:This article has been rated as 464:This article has been rated as 1832:High-importance Texas articles 1812:C-Class United States articles 1247:is currently taking place) or 1: 1877:Methodism work group articles 1857:C-Class Christianity articles 1245:discussion of this very issue 1027:Pennsylvania State University 896:University of Texas at Dallas 855:Southern Methodist University 840:Southern Methodist University 717:This article is supported by 669:and see a list of open tasks. 502:This article is supported by 310:WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth 55:Put new text under old text. 38:Southern Methodist University 953:00:19, 5 February 2018 (UTC) 924:U.S. News & World Report 903:. US News & World Report 553:WikiProject Higher education 1798:14:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC) 63:New to Knowledge? 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