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the only character worth discussing, in that sense he is the book. 3) The plot summary is a synopsis of the plot, I don't like them either (have a look at earlier versions of this article, they practically are the text) but how can one not tell the plot in a plot synopsis? I'm not trying to write a short story, but don't complain about the prose being not engaging enough on one hand, and on the other being too engaging. See here for characters/plot
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Publication information is important in a book article. I added in a line about publication in the first section. Is there anymore specific information you think should be included? I have noticed articles finding it hard to balance this, some give a needless list of different international editions.
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Your point on characters: the descriptions that were included in your original were excessively long. Perhaps a
Section titled "Henry Perowne" because he appears to be the one which critics are focusing on. Characterization thought, in relation to this book, appears to be very important and should be
745:
As already stated twice, novel articles need not, indeed shouldn't, contain character lists unless it is neccessary. If that is your preference that's fine, I personally think it's inane unless it's LOTR or A la recherche du temps perdu. All the characters were clearly introduced in the plot summary.
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I wasn't doubting your sincerity, but you did just admit you rather dismissed mine. As I explained above, I really don't think a character section is appropiate here 1) It is a short novel with a small cast of characters 2) It is told largely from the point of view of the protaganist, so he is really
515:
This is no more than a C article for several reasons: 1. The prose it not very good, consider having an editor with good style editing clean it up. 2. You included some original research, all assertions outside of the plot, which should be verifiable 3.Article does not cover most everything about the
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Sorry I don't mean to be pushing you on that too much (I'm sure you'd enjoy it by the way). Working from reviews is hard since they are blending all the elements we are trying to keep apart. Theme is inextricably mixed with plot and characters. it's hard to draw substance, without overquoting on one
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Because of these issues, mainly the ones involving referencing, I will unfortunately have to fail this article. I urge you to renominate the article at GAN again once my comments are resolved, and I'd be happy to see if I agree with the changes you've made if you drop a note on my talk page. I hope
850:
Again, character sections are unneccessary, since he is the protaganist the themes are focalised through him. It's a limited point of view novel, if you have a section on him it'll duplicate everything else. What the reviewers discuss goes into the reception section. It's not
Dickens here. Alright
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Sufficient third-party sources, acceptable layout, acceptable pictures. I see no issues whatsoever with original research. The themes, plot, reception, writing, etc. are all presented in a neutral fashion. My only concern was the extra reviews at the bottom; I removed them because they didn't look
811:
The prose, was not and still is not very clear. It is alright, and as you can see I have been making small changes, but I consistently get hung up in the language and style, sorry but no you don't win that point. Besides, especially in the Plot and the Themes sections, it often feels like their is
731:
There's at at least 30-40 references in the article. I agree that themes is a little scant, but I've already but several more in. There are six solid main sources used, all are reliable. The critical and literary sections, usually most prone to OR are heavily cited. If you check sources, as you
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On the style point, I think what bothers me most is the way that the plot summary is approached. Instead of characterizing it as part of the book, you tell the story. This is an encylopedia, not a review. You don't need to be coercing the reader into following the tale. Tell it as it is.
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2(a): "it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout" The biggest problem with the article is citations not backing up the information they are said to be citing. Below is a
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Sorry if I seem harsh, but I feel that preserving quality is one of the first roles of any
Knowledge (XXG) editor. I hope to be constructive not aggressive, note I leave suggestions on how to deal with each problem I noticed. Also, check out the B requirements at
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http://web.archive.org/web/20110616123054/http://www.publishersweekly.com/index.asp?layout=pwkprofileTitle&iMarketID=2&iReleaseID=368121&view=iReleaseID&text=368121&vchProductTitle=Saturday&iContributorID=66502&q=Saturday+Ian+McEwan
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3(b): "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail" This is not met in the plot summary; too many minute details are included. Please read through it and see if it directly impacts the plot. For example, you can take out
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They are not the author's words, she says (referring to his existing oeuvre) "His precise, taut prose cuts clean as a scalpel, and his forensic intelligence addresses steadily the deepest of human horrors: incest, murder, psychosis, and so
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reliable and/or weren't adding anything to the article as a whole. Also, I unlinked the dates per the MoS. I looked over the last GA and saw the large number of issues present there; it looks like all have been taken care of properly.
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is sufficient to be a GA. The plot summary, I think, is fine now. It hits all the main events without going into too much detail. I agree more needs to go into themes, but that is the most difficult section to write neutrally.
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Perhaps a paragraph on the novel's backgrounds, but that is not a massive default. So the article had a lead, info box, synopsis, major themes, literary genre/analysis, critical reception, influence. That is comprehensive,
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is B-class and it includes a long, unneccessary list of minor characters (the plot of a short novel is covered in considerable detail), and again unneccessary list of eveyr edition published without explaining why that's
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http://www.publishersweekly.com/index.asp?layout=pwkprofileTitle&iMarketID=2&iReleaseID=368121&view=iReleaseID&text=368121&vchProductTitle=Saturday&iContributorID=66502&q=Saturday+Ian+McEwan
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Mainly, the issue here is that it doesn't contain anything on the publication of the book. Outside of the infobox, the publisher's name isn't even mentioned, and that fact that there are four chapters is hidden in the
1290:*"something must surely be waiting to go wrong" the reference given does not support this; the closest it comes is saying that the main character feels the need to keep working in order to justify his nice lifestyle
603:
Generally, I assume original research in Novel articles, because that is what it is most of the time. Verifiability is very important. Remember, readers can't read your mind and know exactly where the information
558:. Perhaps one or two lines about his intentions and research if that material becomes avaliable. haracters are introduced in the plot summary - there's only really one anyway, and unless there are complications,
1132:*"hailed as an exemplar of fiction post 11 September 2001" as I'm guessing post-9/11 is being used as an adjective for "fiction", this should be reworded "hailed as an exemplar of post-11 September 2001 fiction"
539:
1. The prose could be better, indeed will be, but it is FA status that demands excellent prose. Clear and error free prose meets the criterion at GA level. Putting good, cited information up is more important
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The things that I thought were omitted are what I like to find when I read an article about new fiction (especially the publication information). They are important to some people but not to others.
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The style guidelines say that this should be emphaised only if there is interesting information to relate. Aside from the publisher and date, I don't think there is much to tell regarding that. --
910:
On the prose, or course you are welcome to make fixes, but the article was extensively copy-edited recently. Alas, "I don't like it" simply isn't enough when we've gotten this far down the page.
991:) and I'll be reviewing the article for GA status. I'll be watching this page, and I'll be very active over the next few days, so any comments/questions you have for me can be left here. Thanks,
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In the article in general, the tone is often a bit too informal. Examples include "put some of his own life into", "checked over", and "circle of friends". There is much more present in the
1592:*He lunches at home, again chatting with his son. Afterward he buys some fish from a local fishmonger for dinner and visits his mother, suffering from vascular dementia, in a nursing home."
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removed luncheon, but the others are actually important parts of the novel, beaware that this is a novel about a man's ordinary day, reading the plot synopsis might seem a little boring.--
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I must say I think C-class is a little harsh. The article is balanced and comprehensive, it is well cited with the best sources that could be avaliable for a contempory novel.
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I appreciate you taking the time to review and respond, and sorry if I sound too combative here, but I'm ready to get very specific with fixes that need to be made.
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The word "revealed" kind of implies that she mentions that she's pregnant or something, when in fact perowne deduces that she's pregnant by noticing the "bulge"
1214:"it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation" Pretty good in this aspect
1039:*"planned a series of jobs and pleasures" sounds a bit odd; why is it necessary to note that a neurosurgeon plans on going to work? Wouldn't that be expected?
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2.A missing citation doesn't neccessarily mean
Original Research, if you read any of the sources, or the subject, you'd see straight way that it's not OR.
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We are still waiting for a review, though in the mean time the comments from a peer review have been addressed, and the article has generally improved. --
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1311:"making him aware of the fragility of life and consciousness's reliance on the functioning brain" I can't find anything of this type in this cited work
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I think the part that says "... when she does, she reveals she is pregnant" should be changed to "... when she does, Perowne notices she is pregnant."
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1111:*The sentence beginning with "For example" doesn't actually seem like an example of the last sentence. It also seems a bit out of place in the lead.
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In any case I'm going off to think about it. Thanks for taking the time to work on this page, and your patience to stay around. It is appreciated.
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Basically, all the references are formatted differently from one another, and many need publishers and retrieval dates. I suggest using the
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The article is definitely not told from an in universe perspective, which is the commonest and crudest form of problem with novel articles.
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the
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1327:*Reference one has an author listed on the link, and it needs a period between the date it was published and the date it was retrieved
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
1018:*I don't feel "the invasion of Iraq" is enough background; someone reading this in 20 years may or may not know what this refers to
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It is about this length already. I feel it's adqueate for an article of this length. Is there anything else that can be included?
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Cleaned up what was bothering me and rerated, still consider cleaning up the themes section, still doesn't read very well.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070927215752/http://www.crowdedhouse.com/ms/imagerepository/labelnewsimagespublic/1691811-2
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Two instances of contractions have been left, since they are in quotation marks. Please change or post other examples. --
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https://web.archive.org/web/20100126043629/http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20050228_95688_95688
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1(a): "the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct" While this is not the largest issue, a copy-edit is
763:: Again, the prose is not brilliant, but it is satisfactory. It is clear and does not contain major grammatical errors.
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subject: No publication history (who printed it, when, how many pages, how many editions, etc.) or
Characters section
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1410:"Perowne's composure and success mean the implied violence is in the background", aside from this not making sense
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Fixed this problems, will watch for others. "circle of friends" isn't too familiar. Possibly request a copyiedit
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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1265:) doesn't support McEwan's earliar work dealing with "the fragility of existence using a clinical perspective"
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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on
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20:
1980:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
1850:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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The paraphrase may sound a bit like OR, but it is a sincere attempt not to plagiarise the review. --
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I think this article failed 1, 2, and 4. Will gladly reassess, just give me a ping on my talk page.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110927024752/http://www.ed.ac.uk/about/people/tait-black/fiction
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1476:"dealing with the change in lifestyle faced by Westerners after the 11th of September attacks"
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This pipe link was changed, so this is now a wikilink to the event. The date is also given. --
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Sure thing, always like to help. Need to study for a test, so I to am going to take a break.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080512200755/http://www.themanbookerprize.com/prize/archive/38
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The links for references 18 and 19 are dead. I wasn't able to find any replacements. --
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Unfortunately, a number of issues are present in the article. Comparing it against the
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Thanks for the help, I'll address the problems you mentioned, here and in the article.
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2(c): "it contains no original research" perhaps the largest issue, most notably the
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this article gets promoted eventually, and wish you luck in that regard. Cheers,
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This are really a summary of what comes below. Have been deleted with no loss. --
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1570:*"He descends to the kitchen and has an amiable conversation with his son Theo"
2032:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
1902:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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http://www.crowdedhouse.com/ms/imagerepository/labelnewsimagespublic/1691811-2
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http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20050228_95688_95688
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1342:*Reference 2 needs a publisher, publication date, and (presumably) an author
1069:*"The novel explores a sense place in the modern world" isn't comprehensible
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1642:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
956:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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Cited from the Zoe Heller article. See the 5th paragraph of the review. --
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I'll get back to work, but would appreciate a second look soon. Thank you
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are C-class articles, they are bitty, not comprehensive, and inaccurate.
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
1434:"Perowne's world view is rebutted by his daughter, Daisy, a young poet."
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I've re-written most of this article, and fleshed it out to GA status.
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1064:"encounter with violence" is unclear; the article can be more specific
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1253:(I only checked a few claims, and most of them appear below) of the
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The lead should be expanded a bit, perhaps two well-sized paragraphs
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should have in a GA review you'll see that the article matches them.
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considerable amounts of supportive information left on the wayside.
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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section. Also, there are contractions such as "didn't" and "he's"
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section mentioned how long the book was on the best-seller lists
1357:*Reference 8 is formatted differently than the 3 refs above it
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Novels/Style_guidelines#Characters
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reccomended. The below issues are coming just from the lead:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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244:, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
1481:*The sentence beginning "The protagonist's errands are..."
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Again mentioned in both the book, and numerous sources. --
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yeah some of the language in this book is lank high tech
1413:"Perowne expresses a distaste for some modern literature"
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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Haven't read the book, will try to help on the themes.
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1090:*Missing an "it": "very existence in are questioned"
387:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2036:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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http://www.ed.ac.uk/about/people/tait-black/fiction
1906:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1778:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1537:Much less of an issue, but it would be nice if the
1506:3(a): "it addresses the main aspects of the topic"
1044:'Jobs' meant chores, that is clear from the text.
2014:http://www.themanbookerprize.com/prize/archive/38
1347:note that this newspaper does not use by-lines.--
554:3. There is no publication section because there
1418:This is mentioned in every single cited work. --
1257:section. Also, reference formatting needs work
2022:This message was posted before February 2018.
1892:This message was posted before February 2018.
1764:This message was posted before February 2018.
1295:changed article to match source more closely--
48:If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
625:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject_Novels/Assessment
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1389:*The entire first three lines of the section
1842:I have just modified one external link on
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569:A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
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266:to talk over new ideas and suggestions.
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2139:Low-importance London-related articles
898:hand or drifting into OR on the other.
2109:Language and literature good articles
1881:to let others know (documentation at
1753:to let others know (documentation at
1460:Just a summation of what happends. --
33:Language and literature good articles
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1548:*The times the novel begins and ends
560:therefore a section isn't neccessary
556:isn't anything interesting to relate
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238:This article is within the scope of
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174:It is of interest to the following
401:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject London
272:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Novels
14:
1976:. Please take a moment to review
1846:. Please take a moment to review
1706:. Please take a moment to review
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395:and see a list of open tasks.
1355:) 22:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
1340:) 22:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
490:17:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
2129:WikiProject Novels articles
404:Template:WikiProject London
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1154:*Typo: "interwowen"
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122:April 23, 2010
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542:at the moment
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314:This article
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258:short stories
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233:Novels portal
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103:April 2, 2010
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479:
476:GA Nomiation
453:
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382:
315:
293:
261:
239:
176:WikiProjects
145:Good article
144:
127:
108:
89:
49:
47:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
1885:Sourcecheck
1757:Sourcecheck
1682:Danielba894
1668:Danielba894
1636:transcluded
1116:changed. --
950:transcluded
729:Referencing
456:—Preceding
322:peer review
2098:Categories
2085:Report bug
1955:Report bug
1662:References
1251:spot-check
580:important.
573:Life of Pi
254:novelettes
115:Not listed
37:under the
2068:this tool
2061:this tool
1938:this tool
1931:this tool
1810:this tool
1803:this tool
1650:Reviewer:
1628:GA Review
1539:Reception
1263:The Times
1095:fixed. --
1074:removed--
962:Reviewer:
942:GA Review
2074:Cheers.—
1944:Cheers.—
1816:Cheers.—
1714:cbignore
1387:section
1177:Synopsis
1137:change--
989:contribs
743:Coverage
458:unsigned
444:Untitled
250:novellas
166:GA-class
96:Reviewed
51:reassess
1978:my edit
1871:checked
1848:my edit
1826::Online
1743:checked
1708:my edit
1599:Ktlynch
1587:Removed
1574:Ktlynch
1565:removed
1552:Ktlynch
1523:Ktlynch
1515:section
1491:Ktlynch
1462:Ktlynch
1441:Ktlynch
1420:Ktlynch
1396:Ktlynch
1364:Ktlynch
1349:Ktlynch
1334:Ktlynch
1297:Ktlynch
1276:Ktlynch
1235:Ktlynch
1190:Ktlynch
1161:Ktlynch
1159:fixed--
1139:Ktlynch
1118:Ktlynch
1097:Ktlynch
1076:Ktlynch
1050:Ktlynch
1046:Changed
1025:Ktlynch
915:Ktlynch
853:Ktlynch
777:Ktlynch
761:Writing
587:Ktlynch
497:Ktlynch
482:Ktlynch
425:on the
296:on the
74:Process
1879:failed
1751:failed
1722:nobots
1513:Themes
1385:Themes
1320:cite x
1255:Themes
1014:highly
929:Sadads
867:Sadads
826:Sadads
678:Sadads
658:Sadads
637:Sadads
521:Sadads
398:London
389:London
345:London
269:Novels
246:novels
195:Novels
172:scale.
134:Listed
77:Result
1638:from
1360:Fixed
1345:Fixed
1330:Fixed
1212:1(b):
952:from
511:Class
1875:true
1747:true
1686:talk
1672:talk
1619:talk
1615:Mm40
1603:talk
1578:talk
1556:talk
1527:talk
1495:talk
1466:talk
1445:talk
1424:talk
1400:talk
1378:etc.
1368:talk
1353:talk
1338:talk
1301:talk
1280:talk
1271:on."
1239:talk
1194:talk
1165:talk
1143:talk
1122:talk
1101:talk
1080:talk
1054:talk
1029:talk
997:talk
993:Mm40
983:talk
979:Mm40
969:talk
965:Mm40
933:talk
919:talk
871:talk
857:talk
830:talk
781:talk
765:Pass
748:Pass
682:talk
662:talk
641:talk
591:talk
571:and
525:talk
501:talk
486:talk
466:talk
256:and
71:Date
2042:RfC
2012:to
2002:to
1992:to
1912:RfC
1889:).
1877:or
1862:to
1784:RfC
1761:).
1749:or
1734:to
759:4)
741:2)
727:1)
604:is.
417:Low
288:Mid
2100::
2055:.
2050:}}
2046:{{
1925:.
1920:}}
1916:{{
1887:}}
1883:{{
1797:.
1792:}}
1788:{{
1759:}}
1755:{{
1720:{{
1716:}}
1712:{{
1688:)
1674:)
1621:)
1605:)
1580:)
1572:--
1558:)
1550:--
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1468:)
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1426:)
1402:)
1370:)
1362:--
1332:--
1323:}}
1317:{{
1303:)
1282:)
1241:)
1233:--
1208:ok
1196:)
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1103:)
1082:)
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1048:--
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320:a
252:,
248:,
54:it
45:.
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1141:(
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680:(
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589:(
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523:(
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464:(
429:.
324:.
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178::
56:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
