2339:. Please go take a look at the table of contents, and notice all the different devices handled in that one article. Many of them had their own separate articles, but were merged into the one big article, and one thing I noticed was that the pace and degree of improvement and expansion really quickened noticeably after the merges. It's simple mathematics, really; bringing all these beef sandwiches together into one article — each with its own section, of course! — will mean more readers seeing each photo and each bit of text, and more readers means more editors, and more editors means more contributions, and generally that's to the good. —
1336:. Assuming we can get consensus for a 'grand, unified steak sandwich' article - there seems to be a general preference across en:wiki for stand-alone articles in many cases. But something like you suggest might just work. Trying to think like someone looking up 'steak sandwich' in an encyclopedia, it seems to me that one article with subsections for the major types would work the best, assuming the various types/names redirected to the 'grand' article.
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2207:. I cook the pasta to their specifications and serve. Now, most people would say my guests are eating pretty similar dishes, with only superficial differences. Yet all these types of pasta have a different page because they're fundamentally different in a basic way. They are quite like these steak sandwiches, which are all distinct variations on a similar idea, each meriting its own page.
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The people who favor the status quo don't have any obligation to argue that they should be separate articles. It is not as if there was one article and some editors decided to write forks. If you disagree with the consensus that appears to be forming I imagine that you could list those articles for deletion, but my hunch is that you would not succeed in that endeavor. --
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1839:, but that is secondary and could be the subject to a later debate. The cheese steak article itself needs a major rewrite per my comments on its talk page, the most central would be that it should not be an article about Philly and its culture, it should be an article about a sandwich with origins in Philly. See the table below for my idea. --
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from the lunch menu at Taylor's, a fifty-plus-year-old steakhouse in Los
Angeles: in the "Luncheon" section, the "Thick Steak Sandwich" is described as a "broiled top sirloin." (Forgive the self-research, but it consists of a small, whole steak served on top of a piece of garlic bread, accompanied by
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I have never heard any of these roast beef-based sandwiches (roast beef, Italian beef or French dip) referred to as a "steak sandwich." I have only ever heard that term applied to cheesesteaks and other sandwiches made using steak that meets the definition given in the first paragraph of the article
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Well Jeremy, I think that I stated in my comment that all are variants of a type of sandwich. What source do you have that shows the creators of
Italian Beef or the French Dip, for example, were ever in Philadelphia or were competitors of Pat's? The French Dip was developed in 1918 and the cheesteak
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JohnnyB - When we have a food and drink article that lists variants on a particular dish, it is the responsibility of the contributors to the article to populate the variants with as much information as they can. If they choose to only put a small blurb in, that is their choice. If you choose not to
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The website also calls it a Philly Steak and cheesesteak so if anything it shows they are inconsistent and that they are in
Philadelphia. Will more readers from out of the area looking for it google some variation of "Philly cheesecake" or "steak sandwich" when looking for this one in particular? It
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The Philly has a reputation and story that are worthy or a separate article (not from there and not in the industry). The article needs improvement but seems of decent length to be independent. It looks like the others have some history as well even though they don't come across as note worthy to me
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Jeremy, I've never edited any of the articles that would be merged, and only learned about this in the Food and Drink
Wikiproject. I think that its well settled that proponents of mergers need to make their case, and that the burden is not on defenders of the status quo to describe why the articles
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CoM - they contain sliced, fried beef with different condiments. Your argument is akin to saying a cheeseburger on a bulkie roll with cheddar cheese, lettuce and tomato is a totally different sandwich from a cheeseburger on toast with
American cheese, bacon and pickles. Your assertion that we would
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I just think it's self-evident that these are separate sandwiches, each with its own peculiar history, and each deserving of separate articles and indeed each having separate articles. Given that the separate articles exist, I'd suggest that the burden is on you to prove that they should be merged.
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Shinerunner - The argument here is that these are variants on a type of sandwich. According to one of the first cheesesteak restaurants in Philly, Pat's King of Steak, the cheesesteak is a steak sandwich. It appears that somewhere along the line other restaurants changed the name for one reason or
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Can you please provide a link to your arguments? All I see is a sentence at the top of this section: "These articles should be merged as they are about essentially the same thing," and your responses to the opposes, none of which are convincing. If that is all you have, I don't think your proposal
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This is the first time I've ever come into contact with any of these articles, as I am responding to a notice in
Wikiproject Food & Drink. So I have no personal investment one way or the other on either side of the issue. However, examining the individual articles on French Dip and such, each
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The steak sandwich article should certainly mention the different kinds and cover them appropriately per a broad article. But a French dip and a philly cheesesteak are most definitely not the same thing. Throwing together subjects with different history, cultural significance, and that aren't the
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Neither article is complete without acknowledging Lehigh Valley (PA) Italian-style steaks and cheesesteaks topped with marinara or other tomato-based sauce. The rest of the country was ignorant until the late 80s and now thinks Philly had the ONLY authentic sandwich due to prejudicial promotion.
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a kind of compendium with more details available in the linked articles, as is a common practice throughout en:wiki? Does the group accept that solution or do we need to keep discussing a complete merger of all the articles? I'm happy with Billy's solution as it seems to provide the benefits of
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This proposal really surprises me. There is no possible way one can make the claim that the Philly Cheese Steak and and the French Dip are one in the same thing. Might just as easily say that we should only have one "sandwich" article or one "book" article. There is a glorious array of steak
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If I'm wrong, please correct me, the previous merge seemed to be a difference in regional names for the same dish. I think that perhaps it's the origin for each variation that is the sticking point for this merge. If the origins were well referenced and explained, not to the point of an
1730:. So if one of the most famous cheesesteak places in Philly calls it a steak sandwich, what does that say about the article? Also, it appears that Philliy is where the sandwich gained notoriety, and if merged, that would be the contained in the history of the sandwich. --
2317:(or whatever you're drinking) and remember that this is not a referendum on the validity of any or all cultural or regional variations on the theme of beef sandwiches. They're all valid. They're all delicious. They all have interesting histories and proud devotees.
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Ya know, I feel like I've had that before somewhere, and didn't really like it much actually as I seem to recall struggling to be able to actually bite through the darn thing. But either way, any more info, especially a photo, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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articles, there is just a small description for each variation. I would hate that a merged page would become a edit warground with editiors for each regional variation trying to outdo the other in scope and length on whose version is "Best" or "Correct".
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You are mistaken in your assertion that I have not presented my arguments for the merge quite clearly. I have done so. Then you responded that they were poor. And then never backed up you assertion in anyway. When you say that a persons arguments are
1057:- per nom. What is the difference? The type of cheese? Just because they put Cheese Whiz on it in Phily doesn't make it a whole different sandwich. Also, how does adding a side of gravy/au jus make it different? They are variants on this sandwich. --
1755:) and merging it into a subsection is not needed especially when considering that its note worthiness can support an independent article. If anything there should be a small subsection in steak sandwich with a further/more/main section tag to it.
1021:- I completely disagree, they're nothing alike --especially the two I'm most familiar with, French dips (from Philippe's and Cole's) as well as cheesesteaks (from Pat's and Jim's). These aren't merely different names for the same thing. --
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While reviewing sources, I read that one of the differences between Geno's and Pat's is that one of them has a tighter sandwich to ensure that it is not eaten open face style. one of the guys si (don't recall which) is pretty proud of
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that now automatically feeds to that section like some kind of include file. If any content changes on one page it automatically changes on the other. Does anyone have any experience or opinions on this? My view is that the
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Where I come from (upper
Midwest US), a "steak sandwich" refers to an actual steak on a bun; the type of sandwich described here might be called a cheesesteak (despite the lack of cheese) or a Philly steak sandwich.
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These food don't share the same ingredients, don't have the same history and culture surrounding them, aren't made the same way, and aren't served the same way. But they do all include meat. Should we merge in
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All you're demonstrating is that there are minor variations between distinct and notable dishes, each with its own history and each, in my opinion, warranting the separate article that currently exists for
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I did not read the whole arguments yet for TLDR, but Philly cheese steak is clearly different from other sandwiches, so unless I can find valid points for merge, I can not agree with the whole sale merge.--
1259:- The cheesesteak, Italian beef and French dip sandwiches all have sliced (or chopped) beef in common. I can see them in one article. However, as noted in the first section of this Talk page, there is the
1263:"steak sandwich" common in US steakhouses, composed of a steak served on (or in) bread. I added a photo of such a "steak sandwich" to the collection of photos above, by way of example. See also this page
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is the encyclopædic title for the article about hot sliced beef on bread. The differences (type of bread, type of seasoning to the beef, type of cheese, name of variant) are best handled sectionally in
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too, which get no treatment on
Knowledge at all right now other than a redirect to this page. It's also possible that French Dip would fall under that sub section. I've added a pic for that as well.
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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Places I've visited that offer that sort of steak sandwich typically offer it open-faced; you eat it with a knife and fork. Biting through a whole piece of steak is a bit impractical!
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that was there and the resultant soil contamination. So I added a whole section on that myself using a government source. But recently I noticed someone did something to it called
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yet the tagger has left no sign here on the talk page of what items he or she believes need sourcing. I will remove it until such time as the tagger gives us some guidance here.
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And regardless of the minor variations or differing names that go along with them, they should all be listed under the same article. If I am mistaken please explain how. Thanks.
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nearly identical. Your French Dip example was a poor one, but I don't think your argument becomes any stronger when these other varieties of sandwich are proffered instead.
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What we're trying to decide is whether we can most encyclopædically treat these various types of beef sandwich in a grand unified article. I think we can. I think it's the
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Philadelphia's Italian Market. They became so popular that Pat opened up his own cheesesteak restaurant in 1930. This restaurant still operates today as
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sandwiches, just as there are a glorious array of books for us to read, and each of them, if meeting notability requirements, deserves to have its own Wiki article.
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same thing gets very confusing. Please don't mix these things together because some of the ingredients are similar. Independent notability is very well established
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By that logic, we should have just one article for pies. After all. If I mix together an apple with a cherry pie, and drop it into a rhubarb pie, what do I get? --
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merging while allowing the separate articles to remain. All the articles can use some more work, of course, but can we move on and close the merge discussion?
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will succeed. As I said, the burden is on you to convince others. The people who oppose you on this are under no obligation to talk you out of your opinion. --
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on French Dip etc. are valid. Actually, these articles strike me as being very well done and useful, far larger than would seem apropos for a merger. --
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should have subsections for
Italian beef, Cheesesteaks, and whole beef steak sandwiches like you described as well. There should also be a section for
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1469:- I never claimed that the Philly Cheese Steak and French Dip are one and the same thing. They are just variations of the same main sandwich called
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among the different types of beef sandwich, and their evolution and cultural heritage relative to one another, without awkwardness or clunkiness.
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We do not need this uch info about the cheesesteak here since it has its own article. A paragrahph or to with the further info tag is sufficient.
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because all of it will remain true whether the individual single-sandwich articles are kept or they're brought together into one article.
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Suppose I have over four guests of my own and decide I'm going to serve them pasta in red sauce. Guest A requests that his pasta be
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gravy what do I get? Or if I dip a steak sandwich or an Arby's roast beef sandwich in a small bowl of beef gravy, then what is it?
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I fear the wording of the proposal has caused unintended offence. Let's all please take a few deep breaths, siddown and have a
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My concern would be the length of the merged article and how well developed each variation section would be. If you look at
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Let's say I go to the store and buy some thin sliced beef and some oblong bread roles to serve my guests some sandwiches.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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instead of just claiming they are. And I have restored the "Be Civil" tag that you removed just before calling my example
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could ever agree merging those two. It's a well-meaning but misguided idea (or perhaps including the French dip is an
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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need to include carne asada is spurious at best as it is a different dish served in a completely different manner.
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That's sensible. Allows articles on notable subjects to be expanded and covers them broadly in the main topic.
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at Pat's in the 1930s. It is more likely that they are just ethnic/regional developements of a similar dish.
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might be a sticking point for some, but I would appreciate if those who are expressing opposition to merging
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Er, has everyone noticed that BillyTFried has implemented a proposed solution by placing links in the
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The articles are not the appropriate place to try to prove your argument that they should be merged.
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sandwich also address the others too. I would bet most would not argue against the nearly identical
1134:- That is being is little overly dramatic in your comparison, the better example would be comparing
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showing the distinctiveness of each variation, it's hard for me to find much basis for a merger. --
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1718:- while fixing the citations in the Cheesesteak article, I came across an interesting line
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are both just meats from a cow. I don't think anyone who's had a French dip sandwich from
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encyclopædic way to do it, for it will make it easier for us to describe the similarities
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They aren't really the same thing, with different heritages that merit their own article.
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and go ahead and make this change. I hope everyone finds it to be a workable solution.
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article. I would also make a suggestion to rename it steak and cheese sandwich per
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Sir, I would wholeheartedly contend that those three sandwiches are most certainly
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chips (fries) somewhat similar to the "Wagyu steak sandwich" in the photo above.)
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The proposal was withdrawn by nominator and this article was restructured using
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Another thing to consider: over the years I've put in a good amount of work at
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These articles should be merged as they are about essentially the same thing.
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page, the "closing" transclusion tag has been screwed up. I'll fix it now.
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there was only brief mention, but since all the work that was done to the
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Guest C asks for his roasted with a side of beef gravy for dipping in.
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Guest B asks for hers sauteed with peppers and juice dripped on it.
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before adding further comments on the merger proposal, please see
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1386:- So if I ask for melted cheese on my French Dip and no side of
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Guest D asks for the same thing as Guest A with melted cheese.
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Guest A asks for his pan fried with no peppers and no cheese.
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where they broke off that section into its own article called
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1291:- Thanks for the comment. I agree with you. So I take it you
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This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or
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personally. The articles aren't just about the ingredients.
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This article has recently been tagged with the following:
875:. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If
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I would have favored a merger of grinder, etc. etc. --
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too? And maybe we should merge the whole thing to the
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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2134:article? These are just variations on serving it.
2054:Let's see what, if anything, others have to say.--
1905:- A while ago, I looked up the town I grew up in,
1819:I have a better suggestion, lets do this like the
1751:has become iconic for some people (not me, I like
1566:Sir, please explain exactly how my arguments are
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2636:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
2384:article to each of the other articles, making
1926:page should absolutely have a section on the
1150:. All of which have been similarly tagged. --
871:while commenting or presenting evidence, and
726:Is this similar to what you're referring to?
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2091:It's been a while since I succefully merged
1720:They began selling the concoctions at their
1574:without backing that up in any way. Thanks.
558:Category:Knowledge requested images of food
2236:another - most likely as a marketing ploy.
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1444:P.S. those pictures are making me hungry.
1201:were successfully merged by yours truly.
1909:, and noticed it made no mention of the
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1911:WWII Atom Bomb Uranium Processing Site
1295:the merge right? The main article for
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2153:, I don't see a problem with a merge.
1958:After further research, I decided to
1332:- Yes, and I've edited my comment to
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2240:expand on that, that is your choice.
762:The following discussion is closed.
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2319:None of that is up for debate here,
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788:format by same. Non-admin close by
556:Provide photographs and images for
407:Here are some tasks you can do for
320:Template:WikiProject Food and drink
236:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
1869:Will have the following articles:
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1855:New proposed format of articles:
2450:The discussion above is closed.
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2195:, Guest B requests that it be
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1:
1031:This comment copied from the
652:This must be a regional thing
311:and see a list of open tasks.
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2562:Roast beef-based sandwiches?
873:do not make personal attacks
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354:Food and Drink task list:
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
2527:. Just nit-picking... --
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2163:01:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2144:01:17, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2121:00:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2087:00:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2064:00:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2043:00:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
1972:11:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
1952:09:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
1919:Middlesex Sampling Plant
1851:06:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
1784:19:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
1765:20:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
1742:17:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
1709:11:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
1681:00:09, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
1650:00:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
1615:23:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1584:22:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1550:22:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1526:22:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1483:22:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1456:21:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1426:23:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1400:21:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1373:20:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1347:19:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1313:18:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1278:15:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
1249:15:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1211:06:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1162:07:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1069:05:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1047:05:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
1033:Talk:French dip sandwich
915:04:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
765:Please do not modify it.
736:21:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
683:08:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
542:to learn how to do this.
1934:should have section on
1199:months of heated debate
1181:- I see them more like
1104:and a cheesesteak from
1096:--heck, a ribeye and a
323:Food and drink articles
1496:- I had a feeling the
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580:Note: These lists are
505:articles currently at
479:articles currently at
427:Status or below up to
226:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
2497:When I first did the
1907:Middlesex, New Jersey
1833:cheese steak sandwich
1301:Roast beef sandwiches
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564:Assessment task force
100:Neutral point of view
2199:, Guest C wants his
2111:prior to the merge.
1726:Pat's King of Steaks
529:deletion discussions
105:No original research
2631:PatsCheesesteak.jpg
2337:Automotive lighting
899:French dip sandwich
423:articles currently
2642:Community Tech bot
2109:very heated debate
2105:Submarine sandwich
1195:Submarine sandwich
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