1473:, "da Vinci" (along with similar definitions in other dictionaries), shows how a surname may very well not be a family name at all. Surnames in this sense historically precede last names. "Last name" here in Knowledge already redirects to "family name." That should stay as it is, with the "family name" article clearly explaining that "last name" means the same only in certain locales or contexts. The "family name" article can probably also handle the bulk of mergeable content from "surname" but the sections on "byname" and the meaning of "surname" that is nearly synonymous with "epithet" or "nickname" will have to remain under "surname" to be treated separately. It seems like a tall order.
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offspring received compound names that began with one of only a very small repertoire of first names. Indeed, J S Bach shared his first name with at least 2 brothers, 3 sons and his father--but also with Mozart, who was baptized
Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus, with Sigismundus added at confirmation. Around the house and in much of the world, the various Bachs were disambiguated from other families by their last names and from one another by their 2nd and 3rd names. Nobody ever referred to Mozart as Johann either, aside from the odd moment in church. (Nor as Theophilus, which he preferred to translate in any of a half-dozen ways, Amadeus being none of them except as a jest.)
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1286:
In this article, family name and surname both mean the patrilineal (literally, father-line) surname, handed down from or inherited from the father's line or patriline, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Thus, the term "maternal surname" means the patrilineal surname which one's mother inherited from
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I'm not aware of this method of creating family names ever being common in Norway. In fact, names of this type are generally assumed to be of
Swedish origin when encountered in Norway. Unless someone can provide an example of a Norwegian family name created this way, I will remove the claim that "the
1388:
There seems to be some inconsistency regarding pakistani last names. For starters, names like Shaikh or Khajwa do not indicate arab ancestry since these names are just titles and were brought in during islamic expansion. More or less we can say people with these names adopted them due to conversion
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Carsten objected because he had his own plan to revamp all
Knowledge's name articles. Undead, JDM, NWW, and Ariadne all objected because they all felt surname was a larger term that included things "family name" doesn't. Except that's untrue both in common usage and specifically: the OED definition
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tries to bury the idea by claiming surnames are "Western". It then proceeds to use "surname" more often than "family name" in its lead, while discussing surnames from all over the world and within historical contexts having nothing to do with the "West". The OED defines their primary current senses
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All of which is to say that there might be a better example to point to. Perhaps "Dwight David
Eisenhower," not least because the "David" originally came first, and Ike reversed the names because everyone called him Dwight. Yes, that's a complexity, but a pointed one. And yes, this is an article
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Hyacinth, I think your graphic is worthwhile, not least to contribute a very solid basic framework for discussion. Thank you! However, the "Johann" in J S Bach's name is perhaps not the most crystalline example, because it comes from a particular naming tradition in which the majority of male
913:, "surname" has been more common than "family name" (usually by orders of magnitude) for the last 400 years; as can be seen at any age of Google Books, that additional usage had very little to do with the sense of "epithet". ("Last name" is on an upswing but obviously
1336:"After the Civil War, when the passage of the 13th Amendment freed 4 million slaves, most had been barred by their owners from having last names. Many picked the surnames of the former presidents Jefferson and Jackson. Washington also became a popular choice."
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was considered overlong) but is forced to realize "...a distinction between "surnames" and "family names" is not one that I've ever made; I have long been under the impression (for instance) that Bjork doesn't have a surname, she has a patronym instead." At
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No, not offensive. FRANKENSTEIN was being used as a surname by German Jews (Breslau, etc.) 25 years before Mary
Shelley's novel appeared. The name referred to a nearby town. Oh, and the monster had no name--Frankenstein was the doctor, and he wasn't Jewish
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The article currently states: "Later on, people from the
Scandinavian middle classes, particularly artisans and town dwellers, adopted names in a similar fashion to that of the nobility. Family names joining two elements from nature such as the Swedish
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The claim in the picture caption at the top of the page, that
Frankenstein is a compound family name, is quite mistaken. Its a toponymic surname from any one of several places called Frankenstein in various parts of Germany.
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of "patronymic" specifically discusses "family names" derived from the father and not "surnames". Meanwhile, any patronym or epithet that is not passed down (as in
Iceland, Islamic names, etc.) is not a surname but an
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In the one sentence I am reading that most
Scottish people had acquired surnames by 1400, and also that many Scottish people did not adopt surnames until the 17th century". There are no references for either claim.
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I too am in complete agreement that Family Name and
Surname are synonyms and no purpose is served by having them both. To be honest, I wouldn't have even thought that they were being considered different here.
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These words are complete synonyms. Even if there were some difference between family names and surnames, it's minute enough to be a note in the surname article. There is no reason for two separate articles.
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This merger is languishing because it'll require achieving not only consensus to merge but also how. This point is one that'll have to be cleared up. The exegetic Merriam-Webster example under
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.
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Isn't it also offensive? Out of all the examples the poster could have selected, he chose to associate Jews with the name of a hideous fictional monster? Is anyone fooled by this?
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same is true for similar Norwegian names". I suspect such names were not commonly created in Denmark, either, but I don't know enough about Danish family names to be certain.
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My thoughts? This fork is causing needless confusion and duplication and should be stopped already; family name is overlong and not the actual common name. Your thoughts? —
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I've just read this article for the first time and have noticed a very bad contradiction at the top of the section English Speaking Countries. The current article states:
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Hmmmm..."Sebastian J Bach"--has a nice ring to it, y'know? I see a series of cheap novels about a hard-boiled musicologist...down these mean staves a man must go...
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s of these two name spaces entirely overlap as is displayed by the repeated attempts to merge them (see below) and by the pages' treatment of identical content.
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either or both of her parents. For a discussion of matrilineal ('mother-line') surnames, passing from mothers to daughters, see matrilineal surname.
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completely on-topic hits for "surname". Google Books and vanilla always break down a little on such common searches, but the estimates are (@books)
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There are some countries which have a different name order and the family name appears first rather than last, eg Hungary and much of East Asia.
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should be used to refer to "The name which a person bears in common with the other members of his family" as noted in the definition from OED,
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to Islam, i think this should be removed or atleast changed to "Islamic names" for that section so people do not become confused.
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where we use "surname" throughout: "Family name" is only used, twice, in the section on articles about families. Let's go for it.
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It's been unsourced for nearly two years now, and it strikes me as unlikely that such a generalization would apply across
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Last names are more important in Eastern cultures than the given first name, which is why they usually go first.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Could someone who has some knowledge of the subject and can find suitable references please fix this?
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should be used for a name from the mother's line. This should be resolved during the merge with
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Felix the Cassowary captured the general confusion by saying he would really like a fork (since
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article or e. g. Lozini – after Alojz – this is the name of my maternal grandmothers' family in
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See: Knowlton, B. (1998, February 19). Among Blacks, Washington Ranks as the Top Surname.
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certainly is that: a word composed of two roots. Could be worded better, admittedly. —
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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There have been failed merge attempts before. The voting on those went:
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But the word surname should not be abused in that matter. The word
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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y connection to European names.) Google Scholar brings back
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traditionally get family names such as Yoshamÿa – see the
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I have completed merging the most important content of
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I see no major issues with creating a merged article.
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Removal of unsourced statement about Eastern cultures
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Origins of African American Family Names and Slavery
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855:a family name
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1027:Talk:Surname
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570:— Preceding
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551:Frankenstein
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493:Anchors are
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361:Anthroponymy
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324:Anthroponymy
305:WikiProjects
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19:This is the
1681:Family name
1670:Family name
1650:Staszek Lem
1498:Family name
1416:I've heard
1197:Orange Mike
1105:Itsmejudith
1031:family name
1022:family name
860:family name
841:family name
776:Family name
625:RogerLustig
593:RogerLustig
263:Family name
260:moved page
148:free images
31:not a forum
1725:Categories
1455:Dahliarose
1257:Comatmebro
1219:Cliftonian
917:have some
898:WP:ENGLISH
831:WP:POVFORK
816:WP:ENGLISH
812:Merge per
1598:Cheers. —
1592:this tool
1585:this tool
1430:last name
1418:last name
1412:different
1410:last name
1362:Monyprice
1304:matriname
1298:patriname
1238:Rosiestep
1179:Zell Faze
1145:MarioNovi
954:3.5m hits
950:1.7m hits
946:1.2m hits
864:a surname
738:Sandström
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1508:cbignore
1432:and not
1370:contribs
1358:unsigned
1039:Llywelyn
995:patronym
927:85k hits
874:obsolete
790:GenQuest
750:Maitreya
742:Åkerlund
734:Lindgren
730:Holmberg
702:Primorje
686:Primorje
572:unsigned
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1693:wbm1058
1674:Surname
1608::Online
1537:checked
1502:my edit
1471:surname
1434:surname
1426:surname
1422:surname
1406:surname
1391:Akmal94
1309:Surname
1293:surname
991:epithet
921:WP:BIAS
892:surname
851:surname
837:Surname
784:wp:SNOW
780:surname
726:Bergman
698:Vinodol
667:Savlonn
648:English
591:either.
555:Tamfang
444:defunct
418:defunct
388:on the
295:B-class
258:Wbm1058
234:history
230:Surname
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1516:nobots
1224:(talk)
1164:GreenC
964:, and
909:. Per
887:Merge
769:CLOSED
549:, and
301:scale.
126:Google
1708:- phi
1528:? to
1475:- phi
1311:. ---
1123:Cindy
1003:nisba
999:nisba
976:merge
958:64.8m
911:ngram
778:into
690:Baška
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1712:talk
1697:talk
1691:. –
1654:talk
1639:talk
1541:true
1479:talk
1459:talk
1442:talk
1420:and
1408:and
1404:are
1395:talk
1366:talk
1317:talk
1313:Vroo
1242:talk
1203:Talk
1183:talk
1149:talk
1130:talk
1109:talk
1092:talk
1008:xing
997:, a
993:, a
982:fork
966:450m
962:870m
942:135k
938:165k
915:does
844:as:
827:and
782:per
754:talk
740:and
710:talk
671:talk
650:and
629:talk
618:last
597:talk
580:talk
559:talk
536:talk
491:Tip:
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1672:to
1566:RfC
1353:.
1063:Pam
1005:or
936:),
380:Top
266:to
176:TWL
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1574:}}
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