2346:. The term "Paiute" is meaningless. It has no meaning whatsoever in any specific sense and is not an identifiable node in any classification in any anthropological, ethnographic, linguistic, or even historical sense. It is nothing more than an inaccurate label for "Indians that we don't have any other name for in the Great Basin". And that note that "exact subgroup may never have been recorded" is lazy editing. It is unequivocally possible to identify any historical event or anthropological artifact as to whether it is Northern or Southern Paiute by where it occurred. Since there is absolutely no point on the planet where the two groups even border one another, there are no ambiguous cases. If it happened in or near Northern Paiute country, it's Northern Paiute. Likewise for Southern Paiute. Just look at what the article was before: nothing but three separate sections describing Northern Paiute, Southern Paiute, and a recent smaller addition of Owens Valley Paiute (although there was already an article on Mono where the material should have been). There was no common thread--it was two different articles artificially linked. And that census comment is not a sufficient justification. The census is devised by non-specialists and is more confusing than enlightening. Linking Northern and Southern Paiute in a single article is borderline racist since it applies a meaningless generic label to historically, linguistically, and ethnographically distinct peoples who were never uniquely linked to one another. --
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include: Northern and
Southern Paiute, Northern and Southern Ute, Commanche, Gosiute, Southern Paiute, Northern, Western, and Eastern Shoshone amongst other peoples such as Hopi. The Numu langauge is part of the Great Northern-Uto-Aztecan langauges termed Numic. Although there were perfectly timed movements (would not call this migratory because it was within their own CONSCRIPTED territory) upon the landscape, these movements (seasonal rounds) were not done as simple wanderings but as eclectic foragers whom were biologists. The sociological organization of the Numu was (is) broad. The Numu lived in small villages in general of upward of 20-200 people. Although in some instances the village was composed of small family groups, larger villages did develop along the Sierra Nevada range. In areas such as Pyramid Lake, Walker Lake, the Humboldt Sink, Smith Valley and Owens Valley, California, and locations in Northern and Southern Oregon the Numu were known to live in semi-sedentary villages. Indigenous farming was also present at Walker, Smith, and Owens Valleys. Terming this pattern a "migaratory" lifestyle appears to be an artifact of early ethnocentric anthropology. It appears to relate to original Western encroachment on the lands of the Numu who wanted to justify their own intrusion into another peoples conscipted territory.
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Paiute and Mono (Owens Valley Paiute) abutted each other. Even then, knowing the band name or nearby town is often all that is needed to distinguish them. There is no place where the
Southern Paiute adjoined either of the other two. The closest that the Southern Paiute came to the two Western Numic tribes was about 100 miles, with the Timbisha in the Death Valley region separating them. The truly problematic cases, where a footnote is appropriate, are very limited. --
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which was mostly about Aztec ancestry and relations, and issues related to theses about migration and the development of maize. Did not see anything about D1, nor much mention of
Paiutes and others, except to say D haplotype was more common among them and some Nahua, but not the peoples in between in the SW. Am not sure where the other content came from. Will read the other sources and try to understand their points.
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separation between them at their closest point. The third map is problematic in that it only shows areas where the contemporary languages are spoken and not the historical ranges. It's accurate in the fact that it shows the separation between NP and SP. In the case of these groups, linguistic boundaries are also broad ethnographic boundaries. --
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2513:. The term is in use, even if in technical literature such use is deemed inaccurate. However, the term is difficult if not impossible for non-experts to disambiguate. The additional context and even as appropriate references that can be provided in a set index article will help far more than a basic disambiguation page.
2293:, it is possible to broadly use the term to refer to all meanings on the page (unlike truly ambiguous terms like "Mercury", which can refer to a planet, an element, a Roman mythological figure, an automobile, etc.). The page would therefore be more useful to the reader if converted to a set index article.
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but sadly they don't show
Southern Pauite. (I hoped that the broken line separating Nixon from Fallon might divide Northern from Southern, but the area south of there is marked Northern on p. 62.) These are maps of languages rather than peoples. Is the correspondence close enough for our purposes?
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I read the whole thing and followed the only bit of actual advice on the page. But one "Keep" and one "Keep but turn it into a DAB page" isn't a consensus. It was a close because I requested a close after reviewing the two or three comments there. The page hasn't been deleted, it was turned into a
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A Native
Hawaiian joined the Paiute person in criticizing the Natl Geogr. Genographic Project, according to the source here (now moved to that other page). I think this criticism belongs in the article on the Project, not here, even though one spokesperson is Paiute. Have just finished reading Kemp,
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Anybody else for spliting this page into a
Northern Paiute and Southern Paiute page, while leaving Paiute as a disambig page? These two peoples spoke different languages, their territories did not border each other and they had fairly different lifeways. Seems like the fact that they're both known
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Since this is now a set index article, adding a map sounds a lot like creeping toward article status. Any map would have to be an ad hoc creation since "Paiute" isn't a topic in anthropology or linguistics. I have never seen such a map in any text that isn't also a map of the Numic languages as a
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If this article follows the guidelines of set index articles, that is, there is no extended text with any member of the list as a substitute for an actual article, and if the continuing effort to properly change links in articles that link here to where they should actually go, then I will withdraw
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and it was a non-admin closure. It means nothing other than that the article doesn't get deleted. It doesn't reflect any kind of consensus for anything else, let alone nuking the article down to a DAB page. Here's the short version: DAB pages don't have discussion on them. Pages with discussion
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There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited. But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should
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agriculture, at one time thought to have been brought to the
Southwest by migrants from Mesoamerica. A 2005 Washington State University genetic study found, consistent with other genetic studies, "populations from Mesoamerica had little maternal influence on the genetic structure of groups residing
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of the northwestern United States. (There is a very high percentage D-1 haplogroup mtDNA match among the Paiute and
Shoshone.) As noted in the previous section, these peoples were already recognized to be connected by linguistic evidence, as they speak languages of the Uto-Aztecan language family.
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Footnotes such as this are overwhelmingly unnecessary since simple geography will distinguish the vast majority of cases between
Northern, Southern, and Owens Valley Paiute. The "Paiutes" simply didn't mix with each other except to a very limited amount in northern Owens Valley where the Northern
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are a pretty modern ethnic group, first mentioned in the 13th century CE. The abstract (not a reliable source at times) itself says "However, probably due to the small sample size or close consanguinity among the members of the site, the frequencies of the haplogroups in
Funadomari skeletons were
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Don't think of it as satisfying me, think of it as complying with WP policies rather than making unverifiable claims about your superior god-like knowledge and whining about the RfB effect. Not only will you be a better editor if you learn to cite your claims to reliable sources, but WP will be
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article.) The second map is accurate (Colorado River Numic includes the Southern Paiute area). It's a good map because it clearly shows that NP and SP are not contiguous in any way. There is no place where Southern Paiute shares a boundary with Northern Paiute. There is about 100 miles of
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So why did you accuse me of not reading the deletion discussion? According to your present account, one person there said to turn it into a DAB page and then you yourself closed it after you got the advice you wanted. That means absolutely nothing except that the page doesn't get deleted. The
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The article conforms to a time when anthropologists still believed their own ethnocentric descriptions of the Northern Paiute (Numu). The name for the people is Numu. The Northern Paiute extend into Northern Utah. Also, the Numu are part of an interrelated people called the Punown. The Punown
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Unfortunately, the best map is from a copyright-covered source. It would be better, of course, to have no map at all than to have an inaccurate map. At some point we will probably make our own. I would add that it would also be useful to have maps for this purpose in the individual articles,
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in the American Southwest", in contrast to some theories that people had migrated from Mesoamerica to the latter territory in sufficient number to influence development of its culture. Researchers now believe that peoples in North America developed maize culture independently of Mesoamerica.
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I think it's not reasonable to remove all the well-sourced content from this article. The editor who did it hasn't given any support for their claims other than their putative status as an academic expert who's inordinately subject to the RfB effect. It looks like original research to me.
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This article should not exist. "Paiute" is a generic term that refers to a variety of different tribes that have different languages, different and non-contiguous geographic ranges, and different lifestyles in many respects. It should be nothing more than a signpost to direct readers to
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tags where it seemed clear that the author, usually C19, just meant "them lot". The only alternative would be, to add footnotes along the lines of: "the source says Paiute, but the author may not have understood the distinctions – and, nor may any other writer in English at the time".
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Agreed, actually at this point, perhaps the whole section should be chucked from this article. The criticism is more relevant to Paiutes (since it was issued by a Paiute person belonging to a group located on a Paiute rez) than the genetic project which only remotely mentions Paiutes.
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decision to nuke it and turn it into a DAB page is a matter for ordinary editing, which is what we're engaged in now. Any argument that has as a premise the claim that I didn't read the AfD discussion is fallacious. The references aren't pointless because it isn't a DAB page per
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quite different from any modern populations, including Hokkaido Ainu, who have been regarded as the direct descendant of the Hokkaido Jomon people." In any case, the second and third paragraph sources do not seem to mention the Paiute so should be removed.
2200:, which this is a direct response to. The result was "turn this into a disambiguation page with a bit of explanation included". That was editor input. Perhaps you get so busy with your wikilawyering that you become inflexible in your editing. --
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Apparently, you know nothing whatsoever about the topic, but just to satisfy you, I've added appropriate references (of the hundreds that might be adduced since this information is completely uncontroversial within the field).
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The Genographic Project has found that the D-1 haplogroup is also present in the mtDNA of populations in Mongolia and Siberia, suggesting common ancient origins of the peoples before migration of Paleo-Indians over the
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in response to Senate requests for all the official documents relating to the Mountain Meadows massacre. Specifically on page 76 where Jacob Forney (Superintendent for Indian Affairs in Utah Territory in 1859) says:
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per CambridgeBayWeather. In cases where the requested move simply eliminates the word "people", and the destination title is already a simple redirect to the current title, it is clear that guidelines favoring both
2722:. It seems that they're too far east to appear on the Numic map above. Of course, this map is unsuitable for inclusion for copyright reasons, but it can still inform our disambiguation efforts if it's accurate.
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So you say, but if it's true there should be a source besides you that says so. Please don't edit war over the templates, and please look at the template documentation for when it's appropriate to remove them.
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I can't figure out the citation to ""The Piutes and the Legacy of Richard Henry Pratt," where it is supposed to go and where it is linked (if at all), so I marked it "Clarification needed." Yours,
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Cool, let's pull for now and if anything pertinent to Paiute people comes up, folks can add that. Here's the section, just in case you want to use it elsewhere or build upon it. -
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Other genetic studies have been done to analyze patterns of migration of ancient populations. In the Americas, researchers have been interested in tracing the development of
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My apologies for the use of the word "lazy". I will certainly make it an editing priority of mine to work my way through the problematic links and apply my expertise. --
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As for "lazy editing", I have cleaned up as much as I can of a mess which I did not create. However, I cannot tell from the location which Paiute people was supported on
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I hadn't seen that Northern Uto-Aztecan map, but it totally mislocates Southern Paiute (which should be exactly between Chemehuevi and Ute). (I have deleted it from the
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Just spotted "D-1 Haplogroup has also been found among people of Hokkaido, Japan, a northern region inhabited by ancient indigenous people known as the Ainu." The
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Why is any of that relevant to whether this is a disambiguation page or a set index article? We are not proposing to return this to being a regular article. Per
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I'm working on them as I get a chance. It's the end of the semester, so my time right now is limited. And I think the DAB/SIA discussion has been decided. --
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Is it your contention that WP policies don't apply on DAB pages? Anyway, if it's a disambiguation page, you ought to delete all the rest of your content per
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there is a significant Paiute population not yet mentioned in this article. Is this only a satellite of the Benton reservation, or a different group?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140520001435/http://library.dixie.edu/special_collections/Juanita%20Brooks%20lectures/lecture_images/2007%20-%20map.png
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2428:. Links which appear in lists of peoples should probably be expanded into multiple entries, but some of us lack the subject knowledge to do that.
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Several of us have looked through the incoming wikilinks, replaced most of them by more specific links, and marked those we couldn't resolve with
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Is anyone familiar with this name and what it corresponds to as far as tribal affiliations? Is it a band of Paiute? Thanks for any help. --
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also applies given that Paiute redirects here. There is no need to redo any guideline as it already supports the un-disabiguated title.
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which still bears his name. This permanent source of water became incredibly important to travel between Mormon settlements in southern
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article and have run across a reference to a tribal (or band) name of Pah-vant in the southern Utah area. It appears several times in
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Even if it doesn't go onto the page, a map just for use in disambiguation would be useful. The best I can find on Knowledge is
1774:, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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Brian M. Kemp, et al., "An Analysis of Ancient Aztec mtDNA from Tlatelol: Pre-Columbian Relations and the Spread of Uto-Aztecan
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DAB page. And the content of the article was moved, not "nuked". But I added two pointless references for you anyway. --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I think it would be helpful, if possible, to have a map showing the regions in which each group is found.
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http://library.dixie.edu/special_collections/Juanita%20Brooks%20lectures/lecture_images/2007%20-%20map.png
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
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Merged about one sentance from Pah Ute War. Could be a pretty interesting section with some more work.--
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Correct all those links in, and then we can talk about whether this page should be a DAB or an SIA,
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And after strict inquiry I cannot learn that even one Pah-vant Indian was present at the massacre.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Taivo, this is indeed the proposal to have the page follow the guidelines of set index articles.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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that also share the same (or similar) name". All of the terms listed on this page are the same
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until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
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because there is no such thing as "Paiute" without referencing one of these groups. --
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120301140827/http://www.summitlaketribe.org/About_Us.html
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Last edited at 21:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 02:09, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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The main point of contact between the Paiutes and the Mormons was the indominatable
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on them need sources. You can't avoid sourcing claims by stating it's a DAB page.
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my opposition. What we cannot do honestly is go back to what this was before. --
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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This article about Paiute stories about red-haired giants is a mess, see
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Please, feel free to edit the article to get rid of inaccuracies. ---
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Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at
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where I've provided a number of sources to help fix it. Help wanted!
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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This topic is poorly suited to a disambiguation page because, per
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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of thing - they are all Indian tribes. Is this not correct?
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who had been called on a mission to the Southern Paiutes by
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better off as well. I assume that that's why you're here.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The Indians of Yosemite - Yosemite Native American history
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and non-DAB pages need sources to justify their claims.
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of Mexico and El Salvador, as well as among the Paiute,
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Another map which actually shows the Southern Paiute:
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You clearly didn't read a word of it. The result was
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876:This article has not yet received a rating on the
415:This article has not yet received a rating on the
959:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention
949:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes
2864:C-Class United States articles of Mid-importance
1469:, Japan, a northern region inhabited by ancient
468:, a project which is currently considered to be
44:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2364:, a set index article is "about a set of items
1770:, and are posted here for posterity. Following
1256:The Uinta Utes belonged to the Northern Utes.
262:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
1970:This message was posted before February 2018.
1846:This message was posted before February 2018.
1278:Pauites in Fish Lake Valley, Nevada-California
1791:Also needs citations/sources and expanding --
1764:The comment(s) below were originally left at
925:of articles within the scope of this project.
185:
8:
1948:http://www.summitlaketribe.org/About_Us.html
293:Indigenous peoples of North America articles
2325:, which it divides into subgroups such as
1926:I have just modified one external link on
1816:I have just modified one external link on
1598:created/redirected by Kwami on June 8 2010
1539:There is a move discussion in progress on
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1487:
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1045:Split Northern Paiute and Southern Paiute?
939:Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles
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1517:, National Geographic Genographic Project
1035:http://www.nativeamericans.com/Paiute.htm
1780:Needs checking/formatting, maybe a map.
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1094:Yosemite Indian Discussion Messageboard
1079:Hetchy Hetchy Indians and their history
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2829:Unknown-importance California articles
1919:External links modified (January 2018)
1596:– target is redirect to current title
1050:as Paiute is an accident of history.
2859:Mid-importance United States articles
2321:(large PDF, see p.607) uses the term
889:WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:
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1141:encountered new tribes, such as the
836:This article is within the scope of
683:This article is within the scope of
547:This article is within the scope of
464:This article is within the scope of
369:This article is within the scope of
259:This article is within the scope of
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1496:, 2005, Washington State University
856:Knowledge:WikiProject Ethnic groups
730:Knowledge:WikiProject United States
284:Indigenous peoples of North America
275:indigenous peoples of North America
239:Indigenous peoples of North America
218:It is of interest to the following
34:for discussing improvements to the
2899:WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
2884:WikiProject United States articles
2768:. We don't even have a map of the
2546:. After having looked at 40 or 50
2197:You clearly didn't read a word of
1782:Separate language articles needed.
1683:Knowledge:Article titles#Precision
859:Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups
733:Template:WikiProject United States
25:
2043:The article has no point to exist
1930:. Please take a moment to review
1820:. Please take a moment to review
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2165:It's a disambiguation page. --
1571:The result of the proposal was
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591:This article has been rated as
398:Template:WikiProject California
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2889:C-Class Ethnic groups articles
2854:C-Class United States articles
2844:Mid-importance Oregon articles
2699:File:Northern-UA-languages.png
1220:Cumumba (originally a band of
1:
1741:Richard Henry Pratt reference
1300:17:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
850:and see a list of open tasks.
788:This article is supported by
565:and see a list of open tasks.
389:and see a list of open tasks.
281:and see a list of open tasks.
53:Put new text under old text.
2874:Mid-importance Utah articles
2362:Knowledge:Set index articles
2094:. All content was moved to
2038:04:24, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
1914:13:54, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
1436:, was identified among some
1408:20:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
1386:20:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
1366:19:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
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1164:Senate Executive Document 42
1033:Removed content copied from
571:Knowledge:WikiProject Oregon
480:Knowledge:WikiProject Nevada
271:Indigenous peoples in Canada
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2285:Proposal: convert to an SIA
1535:Move discussion in progress
1272:18:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
1168:36th United States Congress
1069:18:53, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
1055:23:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
612:Oregon Women of Achievement
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61:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2001:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1923:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1877:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1813:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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30:This is the
2766:Mono people
2621:Narky Blert
2607:Narky Blert
2559:Narky Blert
2531:Nick Number
2319:U.S. Census
2104:Mono people
1788:(8 May 06)
1747:GeorgeLouis
1709:conciseness
1264:217.50.56.7
1258:—Preceding
1250:Sahyehpeech
1241:San Pitch (
1066:Banana04131
1060:Pah Ute War
783:Utah portal
159:free images
42:not a forum
2803:Categories
2770:Mono Basin
2683:whole. --
2033:Report bug
1909:Report bug
1471:indigenous
1342:Dougweller
1318:Dougweller
1236:Tumpanuwac
1123:Jacob Lake
911:Place the
555:U.S. state
392:California
382:California
377:U.S. state
336:California
2268:WP:DABNOT
2181:WP:DABNOT
2016:this tool
2009:this tool
1956:dead link
1892:this tool
1885:this tool
1705:precision
1378:Parkwells
1306:Si-Te-Cah
1227:Yoovwetuh
921:template
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2022:Cheers.—
1898:Cheers.—
1793:Miskwito
1786:Skookum1
1609:Skookum1
1602:WP:UNDAB
1545:RMCD bot
1467:Hokkaido
1260:unsigned
1243:Sanpeech
1222:Shoshone
1210:Uta Utes
1105:WBardwin
471:inactive
445:inactive
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
2544:Support
2527:Support
2511:Support
2317:. The
2315:Support
1960:tag to
1932:my edit
1822:my edit
1700:Support
1671:Support
1648:Support
1205:Noochoo
1196:, auch
1166:of the
1135:Arizona
1125:on the
1052:Toiyabe
1039:Toiyabe
1027:hike395
904:tasks:
754:on the
595:on the
311:on the
210:C-class
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
2777:bd2412
2764:, and
2724:Certes
2707:Certes
2666:bd2412
2480:Certes
2472:Sudden
2447:bd2412
2430:Certes
2377:bd2412
2344:Oppose
2331:Certes
2323:Paiute
2298:bd2412
2102:, and
1952:Added
1928:Paiute
1818:Paiute
1655:bd2412
1623:Oppose
1594:Paiute
1444:, and
1410:Uyvsdi
1400:Uyvsdi
1368:Uyvsdi
1358:Uyvsdi
1292:LADave
1284:Benton
1143:Navajo
1037:. ---
720:Alerts
568:Oregon
559:Oregon
511:Oregon
477:Nevada
440:Nevada
216:scale.
137:Google
36:Paiute
2743:Taivo
2685:Taivo
2635:Taivo
2574:Taivo
2519:wiser
2515:older
2494:Taivo
2476:fixed
2395:Taivo
2348:Taivo
2236:Taivo
2202:Taivo
2167:Taivo
2138:Taivo
2108:Taivo
2058:Taivo
1713:Xoloz
1633:kwami
1573:moved
1454:maize
1214:Unita
1199:Nuchu
1190:Uinta
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
2747:talk
2728:talk
2711:talk
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2625:talk
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2216:Keep
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2112:talk
2091:See
2082:talk
2062:talk
2052:and
1751:talk
1717:talk
1707:and
1691:talk
1637:talk
1613:talk
1604:and
1581:talk
1575:. --
1475:Ainu
1442:Zuni
1404:talk
1382:talk
1362:talk
1346:talk
1337:Ainu
1322:talk
1296:talk
1268:talk
1133:and
1131:Utah
964:Iyer
646:Utah
608:are
303:High
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1990:RfC
1946:to
1866:RfC
1836:to
1577:BDD
1234:or
1202:or
992:or
872:???
746:Mid
587:Mid
557:of
411:???
379:of
187:TWL
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2551:dn
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