3448:"At the screening, festival CEO Cameron Bailey stated that "In emails and phone calls, TIFF staff received hundreds of instances of verbal abuse. Our staff also received threats of violence, including threats of sexual violence." Although Bailey did not state this on the record, The Hollywood Reporter further confirmed that TIFF staff had received numerous worrying inquiries requesting schematic floor plan diagrams of the Scotiabank Theatre, and precise details of its security arrangements for the entrance and exit of high-profile talent to and from the venue."
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after the 2nd minute of ovation. So the audience tried to support her, I guess. The main sense was that she, by her own initiative, risked her life to record the evidence of
Russian soldiers saying, "We don't want to kill Ukrainians; they were always our brothers". I am sure this film will screw up Putin's plans to recruit more soldiers. I find it almost funny that it is the Ukrainian media that is most aggressive against the film, whereas the film wants to save lives, including Ukrainians.
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film. I suggest 1) having a section, level 1 “Controversy” and move all types of responses under that title, as level-2 sections. After the text is all about responses. We can also change the title of such big section to “Controversy and critical response”. The level-2 subsections here would be: 1) Response from film festivals and professional organizations 2) Response from media 3) (maybe) Response from politicians 4) anything on controversy here, if needed
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premiered at the 81st Venice
International Film Festival. Film festival entries are almost always shown before the film is released elsewhere. But you can probably visit the Venice festival website and learn more about where it may end up being shown - probably streamed, as it's unlikely to be a film that would earn anything at theaters (notwithstanding that documentaries almost never make it to theater release any more to begin with). cheers.
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1446:, gave no clue as to intent or motive for asking the question. I do a lot of editing here, and I've run across too many instances of people pushing some general query about the topic of an article to the talk page, with no clear intent to improve the article (e.g. "Does salt water taffy have sea water in it?", things like that). It happens frequently, and often results in the question being summarily deleted per
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be completed. Besides, as in the story of Mansky about an arrest of his operator, during the wars, there should be additional creativity and risks, and not reliance on "things as usual". Trofimova made several films about ISIS, which, considering the content of the films, required permissions of 4 different countries, and none of them were obtained. This is just a specifics of war journalism.
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3016:“Ukrainian side wants me to show and then condemn military actions of Russian soldiers but their own films don’t show military actions of their soldiers. Instead Ukrainian films show human faces and lives involved in this war. So that what I show too: human lives. What Ukrainian side wants relate to different topics and scripts”.
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Russian
Ministry of Defense. If these were true, then it would be a great risk for Trofimova, a Canadian citizen, to engage in questioning Russian solders at their front. Some are convinced, therefore, that the film is simply a carefully crafted Russian propaganda project. They speculate that Trofimova, a former filmmaker at
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3013:"If we don't see each other as people… these black and white stereotypes about each other, this will only make the war continue. This will only make the hatred grow… unfortunately, that's sort of the route taken by politicians, but I don't think that this is the route that regular people should take."
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However, Trofimova explains that there were many gaps in the control over media in the
Russian Army, which was focused more on the military than on the media issues. She also reminded that the speculations about her being hired by Russia to produce this film don't make sense as "no Russian channel is
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This sentence is not very relevant for the films about the wars as many war journalists risk their lives going back and forth between borders. During the wars, official permissions are often omitted, especially for documentalists, who have to record events here and now, not waiting for formalities to
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The best proof would be asking Ms Bassel herself (which likely you can do), about the timeline: when did she had her press-conference when she was asked that question and gave her answer and when, what date did she actually saw the film. My proof would be only my own experience since I was in Venice,
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Your opinion about the poor misunderstood
Russian soliders is irrelevant to topic at hand. Introduction still needs amending to illustrate the significance of the controversy surrounding it - it would not have been this widely covered in media without widespread criticism that it is a thinly-veiled a
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I agree. I even suggested earlier to split this section to the reception by industry, response in
Ukrainian-Canadian community and reception by festivals but my proposed changes were reverted. I think it makes sense not to blend several types of responses. Plus a common reader might perceive the word
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Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by
Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova, which has been widely criticized as Russian propaganda. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014
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I see little point in separating them by nationality and some don't fall into neat boxes, e.g. Garner is writing in the Moscow Times, which is based in the
Netherlands, from Canada. Mansky is Russian but Meduza is based in Riga. Ukraine is a western country in that it's part of frontline Europe, so
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Ms Bassel's press-conference was on
September 4th, during which she gave a long answer to the question about Russians at War, justifying why she didn't watch the film yet, and why does she think that it is a Russian propaganda. Ms Bassel later realized that she should be aware of the details of the
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Russians at War is a 2024 documentary film directed by
Russian-Canadian cinematographer Anastasia Trofimova. The Canadian and Ontario government-funded film focuses on the perspective of Russian soldiers invading Ukraine during the ongoing 2014 Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice
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Documentary films require a modified approach for their articles. Instead of a plot summary, a documentary article should have a synopsis that serves as an overview of the documentary. The synopsis should describe the on-screen events without interpretation, following the same guidelines that apply
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It's a documentary, not a popular fiction movie. Common sense would generally suggest that if one searches the 'net and can't find any information about where to view a film that was just a few days ago submitted to a film festival, it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside
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The film will be shown at the Windsor International Film Festival which will run from October 24 to November 3, 2024. Executive director Vincent Georgie stated that "the film is there to create discussion and debates" and added that there will be additional security measures during the showings of
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The nature of the controversy needs to be specified as the article states that it is a documentary film, and that is not strictly the case if it is a work of propaganda - that requires early clarification so readers are not misled. Otherwise we should introduce it as a documentary/propaganda film.
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I suggest slitting this sections into several types of responses, otherwise it reads as a soup. Since Ukrainian media differs from Western sources, and there are mixed responses in Russian opposition media, perhaps it is better to have subsections: (1) Response in the Western media (2) Response in
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In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article, nor are they a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Material unsuitable for talk pages may be subject to
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said that in adding the film to festival programs, "decision-makers should expect a storm of criticism for their mistakes. Lawmakers should ask questions. So should sponsors. Festival-goers can complain. With luck, Trofimova’s film may eventually serve a useful purpose, as a career-killer for all
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Trofimova also agreed that the project was very risky for the soldiers and for her personally, and she did not believe at every stage of this project that it was possible. She felt that an anti-war film like this was worth the risks and could be her contribution to finishing the Russian-Ukrainian
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Agree with UrbanVillager. OlidaO is clearly biased, devaluing the anti-war focus of this film. Trofimova risks her life, going their on her own (even Dolin can't believe that that was real, and praised her if it is) - similarly as she did in her other projects. She will likely get a very negative
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I agree. Plus there is a mixup of the text in Critical Response and Controversy. There is also no subheading under the Controversy title, but then level-2 section follows in the Controversy section. Part of the Critical Response covers the Controversy issues. It also misses several reviews of the
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This is about improving the article. Editors can better frame edits if they view the media. Making blind edits without viewing the media is less helpful than actually have watched the media in question. In terms of searching the internet, that has been done and have come up empty. I feel like
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Many media outlets expressed doubts about Trofimova's story: that a small single woman can ride with the Russian military all the way to the front, film footage of military equipment and operations, ask her provocative questions, live there for 7 months, all without an official approval from the
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I did address it: Mr. Garner forgets or is not aware of the specific of war journalism. The film is about the war, so such specifics is expected. The industry knows it, that is why nobody in the industry worries about it. We hear such questions only from outsiders of the industry. I also suggest
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In case it matters: I was there, in Venice, and the ovation indeed lasted longer than for other films. It felt like 10 minutes for me, and I didn't time it. I remember seeing the film director as a petit skinny girl, not knowing how to react, not expecting such attention and breaking into crying
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Two small sections (see below) were removed but they were relevant to the description of the film. The first one relates to the heated discussions that the story is fake, and was a made-up by Russian authorities as propaganda. The second is Trofimova's response and position as cited in media. I
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Other critics noted that Trofimova engaged in to stylistic efforts to create an atmosphere of innocence. "Anastasia endeavors to empathize with Russians not only diegetically but also cinematically. For instance, throughout the film, images of the characters are interspersed with observational
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You asked on the talk page for the 'Russians at war' movie where you might be able to see it. I've deleted your question; article talk pages are intended for discussing article improvement, only. I say this without any snark - Google is the first stop. Second, the lede of the article states it
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I would recommend erasing these two sentences from the intro because a. they're duplicates, b. they're referring to a very sensitive issue that could easily be misunderstood by casual readers, and c. they're inviting users to a fight over who said what at the very beginning of the article.
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The following sentence is very awkward: "The film focuses on the anti-war perspective and thoughts about Russian-Ukrainian unity reflected by Russian soldiers fighting on the front lines in Ukraine and civilians burying their men during the Ukrainian-Russian war." Also, the director's own
3010:"I find it a little bit of a strange question if we can humanize or not humanize someone. So, are there lists of people who we can humanize and people who we can't? Of course, we have to humanize everyone. This is a huge tragedy for our region, first of all, and for the entire world" .
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said that "it is quite obvious that the author is on the side of their heroes" and called the film's screening in Venice "a mistake by the festival." Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested.
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Re: doubts that Trofimova went without "supervision" or permission of military - why did her responses to criticism were removed from this wiki page? It is better to hear from the "horse' mouth". Considering her ISIS-related films, I trust her story completely, it is her style.
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What part was misleading? Did you watch the film? Were you in touch with the film team to know the specifics? Did you watch Trofimova's other films, to get the sense of your style, focus and levels of risks that she is used to? Please base your suggestions on facts, as I do.
1370:. We go by what reliable sources have stated, not the judgements editors have made from viewing a movie personally. Removing the question has nothing to do with censorship; I'm baffled how you come to that conclusion. Asking if the movie can be viewed has nothing to do with
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These are useful sections and very relevant. The "Disbelieve" about possible Russian financing could be added to the Budget section, and the "Position of the Director", as it is sufficiently referenced, can conclude the page. I vote for including both sections to the text.
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This reference was was likely included after the text was posted, so it was not in line with the other references, and should be removed to the section "Reception by the Ukrainian media" or "Reception in the industry". The rest of the paragraph should be returned.
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The film was widely criticised for being russian propaganda – that is a simple fact that can be sourced and referenced by reliable sources. The film would have received zero media attention without the immediate critical reactions after people saw it at venice.
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outlets expressed doubts about Trofimova's accompanied the Russian military to the front, filmed footage of military equipment and operations, asked her provocative questions and lived there for 7 months without an official approval from the Russian Ministry of
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I think we need to be less handwavy about the very serious allegations against the film - it's very dangerous to present it as a regular documentary film - which it is not. I propose an amended introduction to raise awareness of controversy early on:
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urbanvillager has been clocked for trying whitewash this article and inserting inaccuracies . The controversy should be in the introduction as it is basically its major defining feature - there would be little media coverage of this film without it.
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This debate gets extremely polarised, just like in the palestine-israel conflict, where all intentions of seeing humans on the other side are critized. Many critiques haven't even seen the film, as it was written here in a former version, too.
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allowed to show even a death of a solder, or criticize the war, unlike my film". She reminds of her risks of being prosecuted in Russia and that Russian soldiers wanted her to film them and their opinions as they had nothing to lose .
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It's a matter of being objective and stating the facts. TIFF said there were safety threats, police denied there were any safety threats significant enough for police to be involved. It's not our fault if that makes TIFF look bad.
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the Ukrainian media and 3) Response in Russian media (that would include opposition and, most likely, coming responses from Russia, when they see the film). So clearly even how we can separate the text between first two sections.
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And what does whether the police are involved or not have to do with anything? What difference does that make? People wanted the film cancelled, and now that it's been cancelled they're still criticizing TIFF for cancelling it?
1856:Все переругались из-за фильма «Русские на войне». Его сняли на российской стороне фронта и показали в Венеции Разбираемся с экспертами «Медузы» — военными аналитиками и Антоном Долиным, — как относиться к этой картине — Meduza
2192:, one that questions the current regime in Russia," Darya Bassel, a producer who watched the film at the festival, said in a Facebook post. "However, what I witnessed is a prime example of pure Russian propaganda," she said.
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returning the deleted fragment about Trofimova asking provocative questions. Being Canadian, asking provocative questions to the Russian solders at the front is rather risky. This is important for the context of the film.
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But heads up to everyone - this "you haven't seen it so you can't have an opinion" line is the party line that all russian trolls are pursuing at present, whether or not the person they're arguing with has seen the film.
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reaction from Russia when the film will reach Russia. So how it is propaganda? I wonder if OlidaO saw the film. I think editing of this page should be done by people who watched the film, as I did in Venice.
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We were there at the premier, recorded the ovation and timed it. Question is - where should we post it just to prove the point, if otherwise it would be not interesting to watch and has limited information?
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It was widely criticized in Ukrainian and some (not all) Russian opposition media but the reviews in Western media were positive. I think, it makes sense to have sub-sections in the Critical Response part.
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film and perhaps watched it after the press-conference. There are recording of these press-conference, which are not published. So technically she hasn't watched the film while responding to that question.
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Irrelevant. When it becomes available then respond on the talk page. Also wikipedia editors are a smart bunch that have clever ways above what is visible in the first few pages of an internet search.
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The Ukrainian government sent a protest letter to the 81st Venice International Film Festival in August 2024, before the film's trailer (September 4) or the film itself (September 5) had been released
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it could be generally better considered appropriate to group those reviews with more fawning Canadian reviews and separate the Russian reviews. Trying to make clear distinctions is a losing battle.
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This isn't a general discussion about the subject of the article. I thought it would be obvious that knowing first hand about the subject, rather than relying on bias sources was a good thing.
2658:"In a statement to CBC, the Toronto Police Service said the decision to pause screenings was made independently by event organizers, and not based on any recommendation from Toronto Police."
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of the film festival (where reliable sources - film critics - are often found). Using the talk page to ask questions about the topic of an article is generally 'frowned' upon. Quoting from
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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Notable, during Ms. Bassel's press conference at the festival on September 4th, 2024, Ms. Bassel admitted that she didn't watch the "Russians at War" yet when she was making this comment.
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noted that Trofimova's claim that she did not have official permission to film the soldiers "hardly stands up to scrutiny in a country where independent journalism simply does not exist"
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Yes, I agree. The cited article in fact says that she made her comments after seeing the film. The cited article is directly contradicting this Knowledge (XXG) article in this regard.
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During Ms. Bassel's press conference at the festival on September 4, 2024, she indicated that that she "hadn't watched the "Russians at War" yet" when she was making these comments
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The whole section "Critical Response" is a mix-up and should be probably united with "Controversy" and then structured. Perhaps, into subsections, as I suggested above.
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1450:. Perhaps next time, include the context for asking the question. As written, it looked like a random question that would be more suitable for a 'net search. cheers.
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descriptions of the film don't suggest that it is focused on any of these things. Surely, this sentence deserves a citation if there is any evidence to support it?
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I would argue we don't need this paragraph at all. I recommend deleting, but if kept I recommend this tweak as existing para assumes TIFF threat claims are real.
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Although public screenings were cancelled, with organizers blaming "significant threats", Toronto police were reported to be "not aware of any active threats".
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footage of kittens in the military camp's interiors" said critic Volodymyr Chernyshev. "It’s just empathy for the soldiers without any critical context," said
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2910:" and those interested in the controversy can learn about it in depth in the appropriate section, with enough different viewpoints on the matter. Thoughts? --
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i think it should be left in - if we're mentioning why it was pulled we need to clarify that TIFF's reasoning was not corroborated by police. Need balance.
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2556:"Director Of 'Russians At War' Doc Bats Back Suggestions Of Whitewashing: "We Have To Humanize Everyone. This Is A Huge Tragedy For Our Region" – Venice"
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During the film's word premiere at the 81st Venice International Film Festival on September 5, 2024, the film received a five-minute standing ovation
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https://macdonaldlaurier.ca/parliament-must-investigate-shameful-public-funding-for-russian-propaganda-film-aaron-gasch-burnett-for-inside-policy/
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1374:, that's why I deleted it. Are you suggesting that the article should state that editors don't know if it's possible to watch the film? cheers.
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Controversy removed from introduction, important quotes from Mansky and Garner removed. Who is editing this into a press release for Trofimova?
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It DOES matter if the editors use a judgemental and evaluative language (such as "Russian propaganda"), and not just add relevant information.
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https://meduza.io/feature/2024/09/10/vse-pererugalis-iz-za-filma-russkie-na-voyne-ego-snyali-na-rossiyskoy-storone-fronta-i-pokazali-v-venetsii
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or, "in response to alleged threats". I don't think there should be an assumption that the threats were real given the statements from police
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Much of the content in the "Critical Response" section seems to be political responses rather than film criticism. Should it be split up?
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As a result of the documentary, there were calls for Canada to investigate the "shameful" public funding of a Russian propaganda film.
1409:. Most film plot (or synopsis) sections are written without references, i.e. with an implicit reference to the primary source: the film.
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The Hollywood Reporter is simply quoting Bailey verbatim, who did speak on the record, and provides no additional evidence of threats.
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Mansky himself attempted to send a cameraman to film on the Russian side during the invasion, but his cameraman was promptly arrested.
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1558:"Critical" as something negative and not as "Analytic" even though "Critical" means analytic. So I suggest returning my sections.
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Super, so it wasn't just us who were at the premier. I hope more people who were there would comment here, to verify this fact
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Agree. Festivals have vested interest in self-promotion. Should only be used if described and assessed by secondary sources.
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Within the film industry, Trofimova's film was recognized as an original, professionally done and gutsy anti-war documentary.
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It doesn't matter whether or not Knowledge (XXG) editors have seen the film. The point is credible sourcing and objectivity.
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Also, distribution is an aspect we cover in film articles, so this was a perfectly fine and relevant question to ask.
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3120:"Russian-Canadian director responds to TIFF documentary backlash, says journalists' follow the story where it goes'"
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The whole edit was misleading and was removed. After so much misleading info, every sentence needs to be checked.
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Why does it matter whether it was recommended by the police or not? What difference does that make to anything?
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Yes, I would characterize the screening cancellation as being news-ly and not significant for the lead as well.
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2542:"Venice Documentaries Attempt to Reckon With Russia's 'Historical, Transformative, Apocalyptic' War in Ukraine"
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This information is already in the "Response from film festivals and professional organizations" subsection.
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1063:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Introduction should have a general information, and controversy should be placed under "Controversy"
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So it sounds like you haven't watched the film so you shouldn't participate in editing of this page.
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Maybe we can remove it from the lead as per this discussion and being not historically significant.
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What do you mean "How do I know? It was a big audience in the Grande theater, what is here to know?
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My mistake, mixed up the filmmakers. Ms. Zhurba made the comment on not seeing it. Apologies. --
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These parts of the intro are duplicates of existing information in later parts of the article:
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https://kyivindependent.com/is-russians-at-war-propaganda-we-asked-7-people-in-film-who-saw-it/
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International Film Festival, after which it was widely criticized as Russian propaganda.
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https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-film-venice-canada-yermak-trofimova/33110069.html
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https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-film-venice-canada-yermak-trofimova/33110069.html
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it's self-evident that it is not yet available for viewing outside of the film festival
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No, you are incorrect. Editors editing the article based on viewing the movie would be
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Two Ukrainian murals were desecrated with red paint near the TIFF festival premises.
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Russian-Ukrainian war. It premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival.
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The film sparked backlash from some regional experts, Canadian politicians and the
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I think the line about the ovation should be returned to the published text.
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Trofimova responded to the criticism in multiple interviews, stating that:
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This article is about the 2024 film. For Russian-participating wars, see
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was secretely hired by the Russian authorities to produce this film.
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If there were any significant safety threats police would be involved.
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suggest returning these sections. Here they are, from previous edits:
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/russians-at-war-paused-1.7321915
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Film#Documentaries
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Should we really answer this while this very topic is all about it.
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they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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But it was not your spouse but UrbanVillager who added the text.
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To return the sections about disbelieve and Trofimova's position
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This reference was was likely included after the text was posted
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You haven't addressed the concerns raised above. So they stay.
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she's involved in festival programming so not a film critic
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those so shamefully involved in making and promoting it."
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This information is already in the "Controversy" section.
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may mislead you into believing that it is an anti-war film
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https://cepa.org/article/trofimov-v-trofimova-no-contest/
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The film caused controversy following the world premiere.
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community, who characterized it as "Russian propaganda."
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Ms Bassel hadn't watched the film when she criticized it
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directly discussing material improvements to the article
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Toronto police said they made no safety recommendations
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https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/09/16/7475392/
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My proposal is to add a simple neutral sentence like "
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The position of the film director Anastasia Trofimova
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This article has been checked against the following
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Is it possible to watch the film? If yes, then how?
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3106:"Skandal v venetsii iz-za-Russkih-na-vojne"
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1314:If yes, then how? Thanks,
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52:Learn to edit
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3250:Edward Lucas
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3184:Cite error:
3159:Cite error:
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3137:Cite error:
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1487:Quote from:
1448:WP:NOTAFORUM
1443:
1429:WP:NOTAFORUM
1407:MOS:FILMPLOT
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19:This is the
3427:Bunnypranav
2663:Stoptheprop
2605:Stoptheprop
2586:. euronews.
2558:. Deadline.
2188:"This film
1854:sourced to
1824:Greetings @
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3366:|answered=
3268:References
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2544:. Variety.
2529:References
2256:Some media
2179:You write
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88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3038:contribs
3026:unsigned
2157:WP:PROOF
1970:WP:PROOF
1939:proofs?
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1108:criteria
978:Politics
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925:Politics
233:Canadian
56:get help
29:This is
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3141:Barbera
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750:Russia
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169:JSTOR
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