Talk:Ryan Lavarnway - Knowledge (XXG)

3150:

commonly used by encyclopedias in the same fashion, as we can see is the case here. 5) Deletion of the phrase here would be a bad precedent, as noted in the above comment about the use of the phrase "diamond" to describe a baseball diamond (which is used in thousands of articles at the project) -- these phrases are encyclopedic, as reflected by their use in encyclopedias, dictionaries, and thousands of RSs, and we have many of them. To suggest that because an editor, based only on their own personal point of view and in conflict with usage reflected in encyclopedias, can suggest that such a term in not encyclopedic and delete it is a bad precedent, and could easily be followed by massive deletions of similar ilk. Deletions that would be similarly based only on personal editor point of view, and belied by usage in encyclopedias. IMHO, that we be a step backward. 6) The reason that the usage is especially appropriate here is that multiple RSs use it vis-a-vis this particular catcher. 7) If a consensus is happy w/the Sharktopus construct, that would be a fine result, and it certainly seems to cover our mutual thoughts as to what is acceptable.--

3023:

term in the same manner as it was used here, that is in fact a reflection of it being encyclopedic. That is what we have here -- the use in encyclopedias is much the same as the use here -- there is no difference in how the encyclopedias "happen to use the term". None has ever been asserted. None has ever been identified. We've just had unsupported, POV assertions that it is not "encyclopaedic" (see the first comment above), or as David put it below "It has absolutely no basis in anything ... encyclopedic." In short, this is a term used by encyclopedias in much the same fashion as here, as reflected in the above examples. When encyclopedias happen to use the term, a number of times over, in parallel fashion, the argument that its use in the same fashion in "unencyclopedic" here seems to be based on nothing other than personal POV, and at odds with the truth. Honestly, I'd be interested in hearing why deleting the phrase -- used in many encyclopedias, hundreds of books, thousands of articles, is so important in the first place.--

390: 2771: 1211: 1047: 2115:(ec) Why is it any more relevant than someone happening to bring up something like my Hilton example above...or, for a more baseball-specific example, a first baseman who happens to be from Chicago, which has been nicknamed "the Second City"? See the joke there? It's the same kind of joke -- it's meant to be a cutesy rhetorical flourish. The fact that a handful of sportswriters happen to be equally lacking in imagination that they use an obvious juxtaposition to fluff up their articles doesn't mean it belongs in an encyclopedic article. 1035: 2383:(ec)Again, the highest-level RSs -- Merriam Websters, a Cooperstown Symposium, a top Baseball Dictionary -- all treat the phrase the same as every other "encyclopedic" phrase. David -- you've presented nothing other than your own POV, in the face of the RSs, to suggest that it is not "encyclopedic". Yet, you continue to state it, without RS support for your position, as though by repeating it you will make it true. In addition, we have RSs referring to this specific catcher using that phrase. We 2267:

but whether it "has to be deleted". Fourth, we could quote the articles, but I don't see how that is necessary. Finally, Merriam Webster's lists the phrase in the same manner as it lists every other fully encyclopaedic phrase in the article; while a top-level RS treats it as an appropriate phrase, we don't usually have articles about phrases because wp is not a dictionary (nor is it being used in every article about a catcher, so that discussion would take us off base ... so to speak).--

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requirement to model appropriate standards of courtesy to other editors suggests that David should not be deleting the phrase where he knows that a consensus of editors has reviewed it, without having any objection. The better course for him would be to do what Kevin did, when he knows that most editors who have reviewed it find no fault with it (and can see its use in dictionaries, etc., numbering in the thousands).--

963: 21: 3078:"Honestly, I'd be interested in hearing why deleting the phrase... is so important" It is inclusion, not exclusion, that requires consensus. At the beginning of this discussion, you were very keen to appeal to the approval and review at DYK. Now that consensus is clearly against this phrase in the way you wish to use it in this article, it is notable that you have ceased to appeal to the importance of this. 1146: 460: 442: 4388: 4365: 4347: 4316: 4292: 4265: 4251: 4222: 4208: 4194: 4163: 4129: 118: 173: 149: 1740:

Respected Hall-of-Famer/Ex-Catcher/Baseball-Font-of-Knowledge - then by all means have it in the article, put it in one of those floating quote boxes. But outside of an article about catcher's equipment, the catcher fielding position, baseball jargon, the person(s) to coin the phrase or the person(s) the phrase was first used in reference to, I don't think it belongs in normal prose of an article.

1218:. It has been reflected in RS coverage of this baseball catcher. This has gone through the DYK process, and been approved, and been reviewed by the community at the DYK page during that process. We have the decades of RS coverage, the use of the phrase in wp's coverage of baseball terminology, and the coverage of this ballplayer in RSs. There is nothing un-encylopedic about using a word that 470: 235: 1087: 314: 283: 2594:...."the tools of ignorance." How, then, do we account for the showdown at the plate playing out in these photos taken on a spring day in 2008? The runner barreling in from third is a burly catcher -- 6-foot-4, 225 pounds -- but he's wearing a Yale University jersey. What's more, he is a philosophy major, drawn to books like "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey.".... 247: 1681:, where Modest Genius agreed that the wording was inappropriate (and the blurb's promoter, who initially defended it on the basis that the phrase was sourced, appeared to become convinced of a problem). Nonetheless, you now refer to "two individual editors who don't like" the wording and claim that there is "consensus" for its inclusion in the article. — 324: 4024: 2783: 2217:" which still doesn't explain that he played catcher. He could have worn the gear as a bullpen catcher, while warming up the pitcher at the start of the inning while the catcher was getting his gear on, or while on the bench because he found it really comfortable. Whereas if you don't use the phrase and just replace the above example with " 2119:

has been referred to as "tools of ignorance" has nothing specifically to do with Lavarnway. He didn't give them that name, isn't related to the person who bestowed the name upon them, and doesn't give interviews in the press hyping the term. It's a coincidence that doesn't even really rise to the level of being interesting. -

2587:...."tools of ignorance". However when you consider the background of the Pawtucket Red Sox newest receiver Ryan Lavarnway, the ultimate word in that phrase may be better off left up to interpretation. Especially for a guy that can in detail describe to you the difference between Aristotle, Machiavelli, and Nietzsche.... 183: 1192: 1180: 1198: 3263:"In this case that phrase has no meaning beyond 'he wore catcher's protective equipment', which is what all catchers do when they are catching these days. It's no different to noting how many writers used the term 'diamond' instead of 'park', 'field', or 'stadium' to describe where the game is played." 3149:

Lavarnway, which was deleted by David along with the text. 5) I point not only to how the phrase is used in RSs, but how it is used in encyclopedias -- diffs to those have been supplied. It is, I've found, easy for editors to say "not encyclopedic", without having checked whether in fact a phrase is

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by David. Nor is this, as the guideline suggests we be on guard against -- a "new" word; it has been used by top-level RSs for 70 years. So: a) it's not the jargon we are on guard against; b) even if it were, we had an appropriate explanation (which was deleted); and c) it is not the "new" word use

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When encyclopedias use a term in the same manner as it was used here, that is in fact a reflection of it being encyclopedic. That is what we have here -- the use in encyclopedias is much the same as the use here -- there is no difference in how the encyclopedias "happen to use the term". None has

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1) I have no problem using the phrase in the body, but not in the lede. I think that's a judgment call, and people can differ on it, and I'm happy to defer on it. 2) The encyclopedias (as with the dictionaries and paper for the symposium) are not limited to "journalists". 3) I'm also happy with

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I'm glad that David admits that the term is not in and of itself un-encyclopedic -- certainly, prior comments seemed to suggest as much quite plainly. That was refuted by its use in many encyclopedias (as well as dictionaries, hundreds of books, and thousands of articles). When encyclopedias use a

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s is not a baseball-community specific dictionary. It is, as you describe in contrast, a "wide world" dictionary. Further, the description was in the note (that the deleting editor deleted), as well as in the wikipedia click-through definition. Third, the issue is not whether it "has to be used",

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To correct a couple of misapprehensions. 1) Despite some disparaging characterizations of it above, it is listed in the Merriam Webster dictionary the same as any other encyclopedia-appropriate phrase. 2) It is cited not only by multiple RSs in general over the past 70 years, but specifically in

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Regarding your examples, those are terms used to describe specific concepts, or in the case of Marion, used to describe the player himself, in sports coverage. In order to get "tools of ignorance" into this article, you have to take a couple of extra steps to wedge it in. The fact that catching gear

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I agree with Sharktopus, who hits on the correct issue better than I did. Responding to Afaber, who crystallizes the issue well, we wouldn't (or shouldn't) delete the phrase "diamond" from an article to describe where the game is played. For precisely the same reasons. It is also widely reflected

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dictionary describes it as a legitimate phrase. Nothing in the dictionary definition suggests that it inappropriate for wikipedia use. Just the opposite. The same with the baseball dictionary. And the "formal" Cooperstown Symposium. And the Smithsonian source. It has been used in published RSs

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There is a strong thread of disagreement among editors in general about whether or not interesting "tangential trivia" belongs in articles. Not a day goes by without disputes over trivia sections or "xyz in popular culture" sections in articles. Very few of these disputes have any connection at all

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You have not addressed the issue of why describing a catcher as employing the tools of ignorance is so much more important on this article than that of any other catcher. If you really believe it to be important to use this as an equivalent phrase to "is a catcher", I would expect to have seen you

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follow the writing style of encyclopedic RSs--which, as it turns out, use the phrase. We don't follow David Levy, who disagrees with the RS usage, because of his particular POV as an individual editor. If we had RSs saying that the ballplayer was an asshole, we could of course reflect that -- but

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Except I don't think it is a relevant fact. It seems a little odd to me to include a count of the number of times a phrase - any phrase, even one's like "best in the world", not just this one - is used to describe someone. In this case that phrase has no meaning beyond "he wore catcher's protective

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is a redirect to a glossary. It's use there is fine, because it is a term that is used in baseball, and its being explained there. But its a colloquialism, not the standard term. It would be appropriate in the articles of the people who first coined the phrase, perhaps even the first people it was

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2. We follow reliable sources regarding factual information. This, conversely, is a matter of writing style. The phrase "employs the tools of ignorance" means "plays as a catcher" (a detail clearly established elsewhere in the article), so its inclusion serves absolutely no purpose other than to

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The term "tools of ignorance" has as much to do with Ryan Lavarnway as it does with any other catcher in baseball. Its inclusion in the article (accompanied by an explanation of its meaning) constitutes irrelevant trivia. Reliable sources have used the expression in connection with Lavarnway and

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I don't think anyone is arguing that the phrase doesn't exist. But just because its out there means it has to be used. The phrase does have some disparaging connotations about it; it may not be an insult, but it could be seen that way, particularly by people unfamiliar with it. Again, if its in a

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The statement "In 2007 he moved from right field to catcher, a position whose equipment is referred to as 'the tools of ignorance'." is analogous to the hypothetical statement "He was raised in California, which is referred to as 'the Golden State'." (citing articles in which writers happened to

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As has been explained, we don't unnecessarily insert terms requiring explanation. This isn't an article about baseball terminology, the nickname "tools of ignorance" or anyone widely associated with it, so there's no need to use that phrase (followed by an explanation of its meaning) instead of

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all use the term in "serious" RSs. 4) The comment about "asshole" being in the dictionary is a red herring -- if the RSs covering him called him an asshole, it would be perhaps pertinent, but here it isn't. It rebuts the unsupported, POV comment that the 70-year-old RS-supported phrase is not

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Kevin didn't explain why the use of a 70-year-old phrase, used in both general and baseball dictionaries, and used in RSs as to this particular ballplayer, is anything other than eminently encyclopedic. Also, his conclusions are misplaced -- my first, 10th, 25th, and 50th edits were all equally

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Thank you for your civil reply and clarification. I did think that bit of trivia was interesting and relevant to the article's subject. Consensus here says it does not belong in the article, so I am ready to accept that consensus, but I still think what I thought, that it is a small loss to our

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But the point is that its not used in every article about a catcher. I suspect that even looking at the larger articles for catchers, where there is a greater probability that editors would seek to avoid using the same terminology were other options are present, its not used outside of specific

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As a few others have said, if there was a specific quote about this player that used the phrase - something like "There's this kid moving up the ranks that people will start hearing about soon. He's one of the best to put on the tools of ignorance n a long time, and his name is Ryan Lavarnway."

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it would almost certainly only appear in cases such as the ones I've described above where it would be appropriate. That the term has a recognised definition elsewhere is irrelevant to this discussion. And just because an explanation of the term is present in the article doesn't mean it passes

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As to David's editing against consensus by deleting the phrase (in contrast to Kevin's appropriate approach -- simply initiating the discussion here), of course DYK review does not constitute "binding approval" of the phrase. But it does reflect editor review of it, but multiple editors. The

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The bottom line is that we've presented the RS coverage of this fellow that use the expression. The 70-year history of usage of the phrase in RSs. The reflection of the phrase in high-level, formal, dictionaries and Cooperstown symposia (paper presented at the Tenth Cooperstown Symposium on

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to the term "tools of ignorance" itself, but to the passages quoted in the message to which I replied, in which Ryan Lavarnway's Ivy League background was contrasted with his current use of said gear — cute wordplay with no serious basis (e.g. a widespread belief that employing the "tools of

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I do not see why Epeefleche's alleged motivation keeps being cited. Surely the three (not two) sportswriters using the same combination were not motivated by getting a hook published by DYK. And if Epee's only motivation for adding this info to the article was to get a DYK hook, why would he

3368:"It is, of course, appropriate for Knowledge (XXG) to mention the expression in our coverage of baseball terminology and our articles about people to whom the phrase is attributed (Muddy Ruel and Bill Dickey). Likewise, it can appear in direct quotations attributed to specific individuals." 2789: 1186: 1874:

in RSs, including baseball dictionaries and layman dictionaries of high repute, as well as in multiple RSs for decades. I would not encourage the editors of an opposite view here to delete the phrase from the 3,000+ wp articles that use it, for the same reasons as those mentioned here.--

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currently yields articles in which it's used in connection with Alex Avila, Joe Mauer, Jesus Montero, Ivan Rodriguez, Kurt Suzuki and (in several instances) catchers in general. Sports journalists commonly use this expression to enliven their prose (which, again, is inappropriate in an

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is the article that explains the term, where it comes from and how it's used. (If it has to be explained when its not just used for Lavarnway, it probably shouldn't be here.) There are sound reasons for the terms used in the context you've just cited. There doesn't seem to be here.

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To suggest a possible consensus solution here -- at least two different sportswriters in two different articles cited here thought it was interesting to juxtapose Lavarnway's Ivy League background with "tools of ignorance." Why not mention that as a relevant fact in the article?

3071:. I would have raised no objection to the phrase that Sharktopus proposed (except that I would quail at describing 2 as several), which gave meaning to the phrase, context to the application of it to Lavarnway, and proportionality to its relevance by moving it out of the lead. 2187:

That the term "tools of ignorance" is commonly used to describe the gear worn by catchers is factual information backed by reliable sources. No one disputes that. But it's irrelevant to this article, which pertains to neither the nickname nor anyone notably associated with

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Likewise, it can appear in direct quotations attributed to specific individuals. But there must be a valid reason to include such a quotation (e.g. historical significance or direct relevance to an event covered in the article); a desire to mention the phrase is not a valid

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I also provided links derived from Web searches of three of those players' names in tandem with "tools of ignorance." With little effort (and no examination of anything but the top hits), I was able to find as many as four articles referring to a given catcher in this

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s in precisely the same manner as every other term in that dictionary, in contrast to the industry-specific terminology that won't be reflected in high-level laymens' dictionaries. Secondly, the suggestion is that we "Minimize jargon, or at least explain it". If this

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Secondly, no one disputes the fact that the expression "tools of ignorance" is used in baseball. But it's an informal term, appropriate for use in casual conversation and sports journalism but rarely appropriate for use in an encyclopedia (which maintains a formal

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The term in fact doesn't seem in use all that often. It's like using the term AAAA player or something, it's used occasionally, but it's not something you'd just throw into the article, and I'm not sure of the obsession with an article having to have this term.

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Discussion at the DYK nomination makes it clear that this was a case of "encyclopaedic" content being set up to enable a "hooky" entry at DYK, rather than a desire to present best encyclopaedic practice. This abuse was the basis of my opening post, and remains

3954:, as is made clear in the wikipedia article, has a common plural. Which is the format the editor keeps on deleting. As the wikipedia article states: "The plural of RBI is generally "RBIs", although some commentators use "RBI" as both singular and plural ..." 1676:

In response to your message on my talk page (in which you referred to me as "one editor" acting alone), I noted that you'd previously reverted another user's removal of the phrase and replied to Kevin's message on this talk page. I also pointed you to

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blurb. It has absolutely no special relevance to Ryan Lavarnway and is commonly used in reference to the gear worn by countless other catchers (and catchers in general), so I don't know why you keep stating that it's "used in RSs as to this particular

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It is used in a number of RS encyclopedias. As we used it here. Their goal is the same as ours. You can't call it UN-encyclopedic, when RS encyclopedias use it in the same manner, and Merriam Websters lists it the same as any other appropriate

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The point is that journalists use various terms interchangeably, so when a couple of sportswriters happen to use the nickname "tools of ignorance" in reference to Ryan Lavarnway's catcher's gear, we shouldn't seek to divine special significance.

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blouses?" (neither knowing nor caring whether she does or not): cute, perhaps, but not encyclopedic in any way. It's a ridiculous thing on which to hang a DYK hook, and honestly makes me wonder how it got through that process in the first place.

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appropriate -- why in the world, with AGF as your guide, would you assume that my first edit that is RS-supported is in my mind "more appropriate" than my 25th or 50th? It doesn't work that way ... there is no sliding scale of appropriateness.--

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Please explain how this phrase complies with formal encyclopaedic tone. Inserting phrases apparently for no reason other than to support a DYK hook seems to me highly irresponsible and disrespectful of the encyclopaedic status of the project.

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The examples in those "encyclopaedias" (which are written by journalists as opinionated, career review pieces, not as something that has the same NPOV objectives as Knowledge (XXG)) are in no way similar to the phrase that you wish to restore:

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If, on the other hand, you believe that this description is relevant and important in the article for catchers, you will no doubt be able to refer me to many other catchers' articles to which you have added it, or at least checked that it is

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So...your answer to me is twisting people's words, appeals to authority, and otherwise one big lesson in "what not to do in an argument", ending with a classic take on "I know you are, but what am I?" You're seriously pushing my ability to

2305:. Not only did it mean explaining a jargon term, but the explanation was hidden in one of four footnotes at the end of the sentence, where a user would expect references backing up a claim made in the prose, not an explanation of the prose. 1395:, the Cooperstown Symposium, and the other indicated sources, and there is nothing in our guidelines that suggests that appropriate phrases must be deleted because of individual editor's personal feelings that are in conflict with RS usage. 3074:

Given your experience as a Knowledge (XXG) editor, I am bemused that you are unable or unwilling to distinguish between the use of a phrase in journalistic RSs and the way that opinions, informal language and clichés are used in Knowledge

2747:(ec)It does, for the reasons indicated above -- it is not jargon, as it is reflected in Merriam Websters, a non-jargon dictionary, with no indication that it is jargon. If it were jargon, it had the explanation called for by wp:jargon. 2138:

regard to this particular catcher. 3) We have guidelines that speak to our following RSs, but the objection here seem to be based on non-guideline, not-following-RSs sentiments, as well as by some editors not being aware that the

1718:) fairly widely used in baseball circles to describe catching equipment as a group, I would agree that in this case its usage is spurious. It's similar to someone saying "Did you know that Paris Hilton, a famous rich person, wears 3682:

So's the term "scrappy", but it's not one I'm going to put in hundreds of baseball articles. You continually dance around everyone's point. We know the term's used in some sources, that doesn't automatically mean we must as well.

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It's a friendly joke that goes back many, many years. Whether it's suitable in the context given is questionable, simply because it sounds like the way a sportswriter would write, rather than the way an encyclopedist would write.

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Ummm ... above the protest is that it is not encyclopaedic. But, in contrast to that bare, unsupported assertion, we have many encyclopaedias that do in fact use it. As well as Merriam Websters, hundreds of books, thousands of

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4. Again, no one disputes the fact that the term "tools of ignorance" is used in baseball and properly included in our lists of baseball terminology. But it's a nickname with no notable connection to this article's subject.

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equipment", which is what all catchers do when they are catching these days. It's no different to noting how many writers used the term "diamond" instead of "park", "field", or "stadium" to describe where the game is played.

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It's actually more than that. It's a way to describe the catcher's equipment that is used not only in encyclopedias and dictionaries, but actually in RSs directly associated with describing Lavarnway himself, as reflected

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I mentioned that fact that Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary also includes the word "asshole" in rebuttal to your claim that the presence of "tools of ignorance" in that publication proves that the term is "formal."

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Certainly, its wide-spread use in encyclopedias is more compelling reflection of whether it is "appropriate for an encyclopedia". Weighed against your unsupported statement, no matter how many times you make your bare

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You suggest that "Many editors looked at this while it was at DYK": obviously not all of them will have looked at the talk page, but no-one other than you has responded to my challenge for defences of this phrase.

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review constitute binding "approval" of an article's content. There have been numerous instances in which outright hoaxes and plagiarized text have slipped through. (I'm not suggesting that either occurred in this

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Deletion of the phrase here would be a bad precedent, as noted in the above comment about the use of the phrase "diamond" to describe a baseball diamond (which is used in thousands of articles at the project)

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It is, of course, appropriate for Knowledge (XXG) to mention the expression in our coverage of baseball terminology and our articles about people to whom the phrase is attributed (Muddy Ruel and Bill Dickey).

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it be used" rather than the two possibilities you provide. But even considering "has to be deleted", the answer (and you wanted a WP reasoning for it) is "if not deleted, replaced with something that isn't

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Do you assert that the baseball encyclopedias you've cited are equivalent (in content and writing style) to Knowledge (XXG)? Do you dispute that they, unlike Knowledge (XXG), routinely contain flourishes?

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The version proposed by Sharktopus is vastly superior to those that preceded it, but it still comprises trivial information. That a couple of sportswriters used the same humorous wordplay simply isn't

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hook, and when its absence from our article and its sources was noted, he/she deliberately sought pieces in which the term was applied to Ryan Lavarnway (specifically for the purpose of justifying the

1516:, as we follow RSs--not wikis or individual editors. But in any event the phrase is present on wikipedia -- and has been for a considerable period of time -- at the Project's "Glossary of baseball": 1387:

as such since 1939. We follow RSs here. Not the personal points of view of two individual editors who don't like what the RSs have used as a legitimate phrase for years. Knowledge (XXG) is not at a

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In 2007 he moved from right field to catcher, inspiring several sportwriters to draw a contrast between his Ivy League credentials and the tradition that catchers make use of the "tools of ignorance."

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Indeed, an explanation of the term's meaning was attached. The problem is that there's no valid reason for such trivia to be present, given that the expression needn't be included in the first place.

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The term appears in other references such as encyclopedias and dictionaries, but in those how many times does it appear within the definition or explanation of some other entry. If it does appear in

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encyclopedias are equivalent (in content and writing style) to Knowledge (XXG), I suppose that's your prerogative. But the claim that no difference has been asserted is an outright falsehood.

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consider relevant to this particular player. The fact that the same term is used generically in many other contexts does not guarantee that it is being used only generically here. It is not.

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then. The phrase - though arguably common within the baseball community - is not a common one in the wide world. Its presence in this article would need to be explained, with something like "

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had the nickname "The Octopus" - it applied to him specifically, not just a group of people he happened to be included in. ("Tools of ignorance" doesn't specifically apply to Lavarnway.) And

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the Sharktopus construct. 4) The deleted construct did give meaning to the phrase, and context to the application of it to Lavarnway -- in the quote in the note, taken from an article

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During the season, he played in the Oakland Athletics organization, playing six games in the major leagues for them. He was a 2018 mid-season Triple-A All Star for the Nashville Sounds.

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All of which provides plenty of evidence for the meaning of the cliché, and no excuse for introducing such a cliché into a supposedly encyclopaedic article about a particular catcher.

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You mentioned the two articles in which the expression was applied to Ryan Lavarnway. I then noted the sequence of events to explain that those pieces were deliberately sought out,

634: 2408:)). That's all on the one side of the equation. On the other side we have editor personal POV, and "branding" of the phrase as non-encyclopedic ... when the RS evidence points to 2225:

quote about the guy, and the quote itself is significant enough to be in the article, then put the quote in the article. Otherwise, its a phrase that doesn't belong in this article.

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refer to Lavarnway as a "native of the Golden State" or similar). While factually accurate, these sentences end with information of no direct relevance to the article's subject.

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for the phrase currently yields articles in which five other players (and, in several instances, catchers in general) are referenced in this manner. And that merely includes

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for the phrase currently yields articles in which five other players (and, in several instances, catchers in general) are referenced in this manner. And that merely includes

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First I've heard of any such discussion. Did David point to it, and I miss his reference? Either on the talk page of the article where he deleted it, or in his edit summary?

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My opinion: since the term is really just a way to describe the catcher position and isn't directly associated with Lavarnway, the term should not be used in this article. —

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Many people may use "tools of ignorance" generically, but at least two of the sportwriters cited in the article used it in a particular way regarding this particular player:

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for the term currently yields articles in which five other players (and, in several instances, catchers in general) are referenced in this manner. And that merely includes

2028:

My point is that there's no special connection between Ryan Lavarnway and the phrase "tools of ignorance"; it's a term commonly used to add zest when mentioning catchers. —

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You made 53 edits to this article before adding this phrase: I can only conclude that you did not consider it inappropriate throughout that time for the phrase to be absent.

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You appear to be ignoring the substance of my replies. That's rather frustrating, as are your ad hominems and out-of-context references to my use of the word "asshole." —

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No one disputes the fact that "tools of ignorance" is a longstanding nickname for catchers' equipment. We dispute its alleged relevance to Ryan Lavarnway in particular.

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its formality or relevance. One of the other two participants seemed skeptical, and the other (the promoter) later changed his/her position during the aforementioned

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You've continually ignored these facts, pointing to your two cited articles as evidence that the term is "especially" relevant to Ryan Lavarnway (which it isn't). —

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Actually, it is used in a number of dictionaries and encyclopedias, in hundreds of books, and in over 8,000 articles--including articles on the subject himself.--

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I have no problem using the phrase in the body, but not in the lede. I think that's a judgment call, and people can differ on it, and I'm happy to defer on it.

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the opposite conclusion. That's an "IDONTLIKEIT" argument, in the face of the thousands of RSs, top-level RS usage, and usage in relation to this catcher.--

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The deleted construct did give meaning to the phrase, and context to the application of it to Lavarnway -- in the quote in the note, taken from an article

2794:, among others. Those who are damning it "non-encyclopedic" seem to be reflecting their own POV, not what the RS encyclopedias and dictionaries reflect.-- 1015: 589: 85:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 4936: 4691: 1442:

editor accepted your edits as sufficient to get in onto the DYK queue. That same editor conceded at WP:ERRORS that it should be addressed at the article.

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You've continually argued that it wasn't necessary to remove the wording, but you've yet to explain how its inclusion improved the article in any way. —

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I'm glad that David admits that the term is not in and of itself un-encyclopedic -- certainly, prior comments seemed to suggest as much quite plainly.

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It's a term that a relevant source considered necessary to add some "interesting" information to their article. That doesn't mean its use here passes

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content in articles. Setting aside the other issues, in what way does this wording improve the article? What relevant information does it convey? —

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He had surgery to remove the hamate bone from his left wrist at the Cleveland Clinic on June 4 and began a rehab assignment with Portland on July 21

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You claim that "the issue is not whether it has to be used, but whether it has to be deleted." On the contrary, the onus is on those who wish to

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played for a team, whose most commonly used name is "Steagles". ("Tools of ignorance" is not the most commonly used term for catcher's gear.)

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re-insert it after the DYK hook has long been off the Main Page? Either it belongs in the article or it doesn't. Consensus will decide that.

4901: 4821: 3611:- it says first to minimize jargon, then offers the less preferred option of explaining it. We don't use colloquialisms outside of quotes. 4034: 673: 492: 2923:. From the very beginning, we've acknowledged that there are other contexts in which its inclusion in an encyclopedia is appropriate. — 200:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 4846: 4695: 3474:

The above is a poetic device used to add liveliness to those pieces. It has absolutely no basis in anything factual or encyclopedic. —

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Indeed, an explanation of the term's meaning was included. The problem is that there's no valid reason for such trivia to be present.

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At El Camino Real High School, Lavarnway caught as a junior but played outfield for the "Conquistadors" baseball team as a senior

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Most of the sources state Lavarnway was born in Burbank, then moved to Woodland Hills - I'm going to assume MLB.com is mistaken.

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He missed the last 11 games of the year after breaking the scaphoid bone in his left wrist while diving into home plate in April

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Lavarnway attended Yale University, where he majored in philosophy and played baseball for the Yale Bulldogs in the Ivy League

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its formality or relevance) addressed. As Kevin points out, you inserted that wording specifically to justify its use in the

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is unencyclopedic. Honestly, I'd be interested to hear why leaving the phrase in is so important to you in the first place. -

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There is no good reason to delete the format that is the MORE COMMON format. And edit warring to do so is not appropriate.

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Yet again, you've quoted someone out of context and grossly distorted a statement's meaning. Afaber012 wrote the following:

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A term's inclusion in a mainstream dictionary doesn't mean that it's commonly used and understood among the general public.

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That was refuted by its use in many encyclopedias (as well as dictionaries, hundreds of books, and thousands of articles).

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yields numerous uses of the phrase "tools of ignorance" in reference to various specific catchers and catchers in general.

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Kevin questions the use of the phrase at the Project. Of course, more important is the use of the phrase by RSs, such as

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explanation in full quotes that was in the article (as was suggested by one of the three editors at DYK) that was deleted

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David's edits were entirely in keeping with the balance of opinion expressed when the matter was discussed at WP:ERRORS.

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The reason that the usage is especially appropriate here is that multiple RSs use it vis-a-vis this particular catcher.

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And, of course, we have reflected the phrase in our wikipedia glossary of baseball terminology for quite some time now.

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While markedly improved over the previous versions, this amounts to non-notable trivia derived from mere wordplay. —

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1. I don't, in principle, oppose the inclusion of trivia about an article's subject. The point is that this trivia

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is unencyclopedic. What we have argued is that making a point of pointing out a particular rhetorical flourish that

1287:, and a formal paper that at the Cooperstown Symposium. That is the evidence in favor of it being "encyclopedic".-- 1052: 683: 4659:

Please expand on the season. If it stopped due to COVID, please state his stats at the time of the pause in play.

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Again, the phrase "tools of ignorance" is commonly used to describe the gear worn by catchers. As noted above, a

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countless other catchers simply because it fits their journalistic style (one not shared by Knowledge (XXG)). —

1320:. No one has asserted that the term has no place in an encyclopedia. Our position is that it's unencyclopedic 4740: 776: 135: 4080: 711: 618: 53: 3282: 2170: 2018: 1996: 1899: 1789: 1650: 3229:

The encyclopedias (as with the dictionaries and paper for the symposium) are not limited to "journalists".

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From watching his father play softball games, Lavarnway developed an interest in baseball at a young age

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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We've just had unsupported, POV assertions that it is not "encyclopaedic" (see the first comment above)

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of this tangential trivia obviously was performed specifically to enable the terminology's use in the

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attacking the straw man. Do you realize that you're posting essentially the same thing over and over?

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As reflected below, a number of RS encyclopedias use it. In addition to laymen dictionaries such as

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The fact that the description was in the note was perhaps the best example of what not to do under

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to creating hooks for DYK. The purpose of this section is to discuss improvements to the article,

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encyclopedia is equivalent to (and adherent to the same style conventions as) Knowledge (XXG)? —

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RSs use it. It has been used by RSs vis-a-vis baseball catchers for decades. Including in the

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I'd also point to the fact that the phrase doesn't even warrant its own article at the moment:

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I see other examples of citing sportswriters for relevant colorful language such as "Steagles,"

4599: 3051: 2977: 2215:... he wore the tools of ignorance (a term used to describe catcher's protective equipment)... 2124: 2087: 1728: 1562: 968: 699: 4278: 4186: 4139: 844: 4001: 715: 188: 4357: 4339: 4151: 4147: 3993:, in many instances its talking about multiple runs. This argument is not worth my time. - 3828: 3784: 3043: 2078:

In the cases you cite, the terms are specifically relevant to the articles they appear in.

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3/4 are dead and the one useable reference doesn't state what year he played outfield in.

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add zest (which is appropriate in sports journalism and inappropriate in Knowledge (XXG)).

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As to the DYK review, three of us commented, and nobody objected to the use of the phrase.

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Since his Yale Bulldogs profile is dead, you need a new reference for his accomplishments

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used in conjunction with. But not in every article that is for or refers to any catcher.

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3. You note that "the phrase has been used by RSs vis-a-vis this particular catcher." A

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An editor is edit-warring to delete the "s" in RBIs. That's silly, and not appropriate.

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in relation to the subject of the article. They were deleted by the deleting editor. --

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to see that you sought out sources and added that wording specifically to justify the

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Numbers have changed a bit now, but I believe I have all these corrected or deleted.

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For the Ivy Player and Rookie of the Week honor, you can use your reference from the

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Lavarnway was born in Burbank, California, and grew up in Woodland Hills, California

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or as David put it below "It has absolutely no basis in anything ... encyclopedic."

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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran

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The season never even started in the first place - nothing to write about yet.

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To put it more precisely, nobody has argued that the term "tools of ignorance"

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randomly encountered because they're indicative of a Lavarnway-specific trend.

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relate to the article's subject (but still strikes me as non-noteworthy). —

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Further, the article has long used the format RBIs. For years. Since its

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I've changed up the refs; the ones provided now validate both sentences.

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encyclopedia). It has absolutely no special relevance to Ryan Lavarnway.

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Diamonds around the globe: the Encyclopedia of International Baseball

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Reference 17 +18 doesn't prove the sentence it's supposed to support

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I'm beginning to wonder whether you're still reading my replies. —

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The term has absolutely no special connection to Ryan Lavarnway. —

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1. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary also includes the word "

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Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People

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You are wrong on so many levels. If you actually read the article

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African American pioneers of baseball: a Biographical Encyclopedia

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As to approval "by the community" at DYK, it was challenged, and

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Reference 14 doesn't prove the sentence it's supposed to support

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See for example the Featured Article discussion of the issue by

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4. Three users (including the promoter and you) participated in

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hook's wording improved Knowledge (XXG). I simply disagree. —

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No one is suggesting that we shouldn't use the term "diamond."

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Baseball and American Culture, June 1998, co-sponsored by the

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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially

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his favorite major league player growing up was Jason Varitek

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Maybe you didn't notice because of the ec, but I'll point to

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hook, not because you believed that it improved the article.

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3. Kevin isn't "assuming" anything. One need only read the

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The Cooperstown Symposium on Baseball and American Culture

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Down to 1, and text changed to reflect only what it says.

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2. I'm not accusing Epeefleche of acting in bad faith. I

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ignorance" actually is indicative of low intelligence). —

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Lavarnway, which was deleted by David along with the text.

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addressed the phrase's sourcing/presence in the article,

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Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge (XXG)

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In addition, the phrase has been used by RSs vis-a-vis

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rolling the phrase out on many articles on catchers.

1137:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at 1126:

employs the "tools of ignorance" as a rookie for the

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Low-importance biography (sports and games) articles

4694:, it can probably be deleted. It is still available 2476:

Thanks. First of all, this is a term accessible in

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There actually were two RS references to the phrase

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Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005

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ever been asserted. None has ever been identified.

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And the issue would probably best be described as "

1214:, including the aforementioned dictionaries. Over 1402:. That makes its use here especially appropriate. 521:This article has not yet received a rating on the 4333:and other media, where possible and appropriate. 2489:, we would have addressed that suggestion by the 1714:While the term itself, as noted, is (or at least 3785:not to accuse your opponents in content disputes 3249:simply stating that Ryan Lavarnway is a catcher. 2221:" you avoid the need to explain the explanation. 1139:Template:Did you know nominations/Ryan Lavarnway 45:. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can 4679:Marlins' Ryan Lavarnway: Invited to summer camp 1568:notice on yours), in one of my edit summaries, 1222:dictionary uses, along with thousands of RSs.-- 1135:Knowledge (XXG):Recent additions/2011/September 836:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Israel 4827:GA-Class biography (sports and games) articles 1916:It's a colorful nickname that enlivens prose, 1558:? I linked to it on my talk page (and left a 4639:Reference 70 needs the author (Bill Plunkett) 4465:Please move Ref 4 to the end of the sentence 4338:(images are tagged and non-free content have 3944:Editor edit-warring to delete the "s" in RBIs 3065:the Yale University alumnus now employs the " 2754:encyclopedic. Encyclopedias (in addition to 8: 4862:Unknown-importance College baseball articles 4715:Reference 16 is dead. It is still available 2791:Baseball: An Encyclopedia of Popular Culture 2180:Again, we follow reliable sources regarding 821:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries 4636:Reference 69 needs the author (Tim Britton) 2915:Our position, no matter how many times you 4897:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles 4611:Major League Baseball transactions#Options 4012: 2785:Biographical Dictionary of American Sports 1978:The same can be done with other catchers: 1554:1. Are you referring to the discussion at 920: 751:Israel articles missing geocoordinate data 635:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration 596:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles 576:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 530: 436: 277: 143: 4690:Ref #1 is dead. If it is the same ref as 4428:You may want to check out this reference 4415:). Can you make it a smoother transition? 2406:National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum 1208:National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum 1110:). The text of the entry was as follows: 4616:Reference 57 + 64 have a different title 4557:In 2007, Lavarnway moved back to catcher 4425:Please add a reference for his birthday 3787:of motives you think would be unworthy. 3565:And are you seriously suggesting that a 2773:Latino Baseball Legends: An Encyclopedia 806:Knowledge (XXG) requested maps in Israel 4709:Ref #11 is dead. It is still available 4594:He signed for a $ 325,000 signing bonus 4043: 4015: 3976:2604:2000:E016:A700:98BC:EC5A:8F7E:AC2C 3905:To be clear, I'm referring to the text 2402:State University of New York at Oneonta 2142:dictionary, Cooperstown Symposium, and 1905:Epeefleche wanted to use the term in a 1642:." That doesn't make it a formal term. 1204:State University of New York at Oneonta 1187:Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 1145: 922: 438: 279: 145: 4877:Mid-importance Boston Red Sox articles 4700:Ref #2 is dead. It is still available 4620: 4593: 4568: 4556: 4539: 4532: 4497: 4474: 4470: 4466: 4436: 4412: 2674:Its use here is currently as follows: 1000:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject California 4937:Knowledge (XXG) Did you know articles 4778:, thanks for the fixes. Passing now. 4739:Reference 52 is dead but you can use 4496:Why are 4 references needed to prove 3902:Likewise, I appreciate your civility. 1133:A record of the entry may be seen at 218:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 4927:Los Angeles area task force articles 4837:Sports and games work group articles 4619:Are four references needed to prove 4442:His MLB profile says Woodland Hills 3069:" as a rookie for the Boston Red Sox 2494:that we are hesitant to introduce.-- 1572:in a reply to you on this talk page. 974:This article is within the scope of 481:This article is within the scope of 355:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Baseball 335:This article is within the scope of 194:This article is within the scope of 117: 115: 4922:Low-importance Los Angeles articles 4817:Biography articles of living people 4812:Sports and recreation good articles 4549:that's already used in the article. 4471:He played catcher in Little League, 3046:here. I can do nothing more here. - 1181:The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary 665:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel 134:It is of interest to the following 33:Sports and recreation good articles 4912:Low-importance California articles 4857:GA-Class College baseball articles 3822:wasn't about the article's subject 3424:My exact statement was as follows: 3421:, you've quoted me out of context. 2767:The Cleveland Indians Encyclopedia 2485:jargon of the sort not covered in 590:Unassessed Israel-related articles 501:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Israel 14: 4567:Are 3 references needed to prove 2917:attempt to refute a different one 785:Israel articles needing attention 768:Israel articles needing infoboxes 41:. If you can improve it further, 4892:GA-Class Israel-related articles 4872:GA-Class Boston Red Sox articles 4852:Low-importance Baseball articles 4555:Reference 13 + 15 doesn't state 4552:Please expand on his rookie year 4531:Why are 3 references needed for 4411:It jumps from team to team (ie. 4386: 4363: 4345: 4314: 4290: 4287:Fair representation without bias 4263: 4249: 4220: 4206: 4192: 4161: 4127: 2919:, is that it's not encyclopedic 2298:quotes that are actually quoted. 1085: 1045: 961: 951: 924: 611:Cleanup listing for this project 567: 468: 458: 440: 322: 312: 281: 245: 181: 171: 147: 116: 75:This article must adhere to the 19: 4932:WikiProject California articles 4589:Reference doesn't say 6th round 1193:Smithsonian Q & A: Baseball 1020:This article has been rated as 1003:Template:WikiProject California 801:Module:Location map/data/Israel 375:This article has been rated as 261:the sports and games work group 4842:WikiProject Biography articles 4642:Reference 78 needs access-date 3919:— comprising information that 3762:submitted twenty minutes later 2758:dictionary) reflect it -- see 1096:appeared on Knowledge (XXG)'s 748:Add geographic coordinates to 662:Participate in discussions at 221:Template:WikiProject Biography 29:has been listed as one of the 1: 4917:GA-Class Los Angeles articles 4887:WikiProject Baseball articles 4807:Knowledge (XXG) good articles 3928:18:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3878:17:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3840:17:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3804:16:57, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3770:16:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3734:08:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3718:04:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3701:15:15, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3674:08:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3659:04:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3625:00:55, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3574:00:10, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3539:00:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3510:00:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3479:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 3442:14:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3394:If you honestly believe that 3301:14:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3160:10:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3092:10:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3056:16:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 3033:09:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 2982:04:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 2928:00:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 2883:00:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC) 2840:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2804:23:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2723:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2694:23:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2654:23:24, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2620:23:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2566:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2539:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2504:23:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2456:23:05, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2422:23:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2365:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2331:23:24, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2277:23:06, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2247:22:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2197:22:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2161:22:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2129:22:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2105:22:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2070:21:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 2033:22:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1955:21:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1925:21:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1884:22:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1857:22:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1832:21:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1804:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1776:22:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1754:21:14, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1733:20:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1708:20:41, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1686:20:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1616:23:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1530:22:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1504:22:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1467:19:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1419:19:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1370:18:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1329:23:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1297:23:53, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1267:18:42, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1250:18:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1232:18:05, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1173:08:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC) 1058:This article is supported by 994:and see a list of open tasks. 495:and see a list of open tasks. 417:This article is supported by 397:This article is supported by 358:Template:WikiProject Baseball 349:and see a list of open tasks. 258:This article is supported by 78:biographies of living persons 4907:GA-Class California articles 4626:Reference 66 needs an author 4387: 4364: 4346: 4315: 4291: 4264: 4250: 4221: 4207: 4193: 4162: 4128: 3861:readers to have removed it. 1106:column on 4 September 2011 ( 833:Add pictures to articles in 400:WikiProject College baseball 206:contribute to the discussion 4902:WikiProject Israel articles 4822:GA-Class biography articles 4606:Are 5 references necessary? 4435:Reference #3 doesn't state 2209:Okay. Let's take a look at 2144:Dickson Baseball Dictionary 1061:Los Angeles area task force 720:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu 504:Template:WikiProject Israel 90:must be removed immediately 4953: 4847:GA-Class Baseball articles 4730:Reference 39 + 40 are dead 4724:Reference 33 – 35 are dead 4721:Reference 23 + 24 are dead 4469:. Then Ref 6 can go after 1391:or more formal level than 1345:Firstly, in no way does a 1053:Greater Los Angeles portal 1026:project's importance scale 803:. Add maps to articles in 684:Diamond industry in Israel 523:project's importance scale 420:WikiProject Boston Red Sox 381:project's importance scale 4867:College baseball articles 4592:Neither reference proves 4106:15:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC) 3984:22:51, 9 March 2017 (UTC) 3360:I noted the following in 1041: 1019: 946: 529: 520: 453: 416: 396: 374: 307: 241: 166: 142: 4788:00:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC) 4771:22:42, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 4672:02:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 4516:22:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 4490:22:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 4457:22:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC) 3914:the alternative version 2219:... he played catcher... 1920:an encyclopedic fact. — 743:Geographical coordinates 4882:Boston Red Sox articles 4706:Ref #7, 8, 10 are dead. 4609:Can you WL optioned to 4113:reasonably well written 4081:Talk:Ryan Lavarnway/GA1 2970:happens to use the term 1400:this particular catcher 712:Public Defence (Israel) 613:is available. See also 507:Israel-related articles 3908:inserted by Epeefleche 2596: 2589: 1150: 1038: 977:WikiProject California 413: 393: 238: 124:This article is rated 4758:Reference 82 is dead 4327:It is illustrated by 4279:neutral point of view 4235:broad in its coverage 2592: 2585: 2148:Smithsonian Q & A 1148: 1037: 534:Project Israel To Do: 412: 392: 237: 197:WikiProject Biography 128:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 39:good article criteria 4776:Sanfranciscogiants17 4763:Sanfranciscogiants17 4755:Reference 79 is dead 4752:Reference 72 is dead 4749:Reference 60 is dead 4736:Reference 46 is dead 4733:Reference 42 is dead 4727:Reference 37 is dead 4664:Sanfranciscogiants17 4508:Sanfranciscogiants17 4482:Sanfranciscogiants17 4449:Sanfranciscogiants17 2599:This is a term that 1158:"tools of ignorance" 619:the tool's wiki page 615:the list by category 338:WikiProject Baseball 4780:HickoryOughtShirt?4 4340:fair use rationales 4092:HickoryOughtShirt?4 2392:that is a complete 2387:follow RSs, and we 2182:factual information 2051:and "triple threat" 1514:Baseball Dictionary 1006:California articles 883:Translate to Hebrew 4311:No edit wars, etc. 4172:factually accurate 3696:Operation Big Bear 3654:Operation Big Bear 3283:Google News search 3067:tools of ignorance 2230:Tools of ignorance 2171:Google News search 1900:Google News search 1898:As noted above, a 1790:Google News search 1651:Google News search 1518:tools of ignorance 1151: 1039: 799:See discussion at 484:WikiProject Israel 414: 394: 239: 224:biography articles 130:content assessment 4649:a reliable source 4631:Baltimore Orioles 4358:suitable captions 4187:reference section 4071: 4070: 3044:assume good faith 2088:Triple-threat man 1510:Merriam Webster's 1212:Hundreds of books 1155: 1154: 1080: 1079: 1076: 1075: 1072: 1071: 969:California portal 919: 918: 915: 914: 911: 910: 907: 906: 765:Add infoboxes to 728:Pre-Modern Aliyah 700:Sephardic Haredim 435: 434: 431: 430: 361:Baseball articles 276: 275: 272: 271: 110: 109: 68: 67: 64: 57:: July 3, 2020. ( 4944: 4473:and Ref 4 after 4390: 4389: 4367: 4366: 4349: 4348: 4318: 4317: 4294: 4293: 4267: 4266: 4253: 4252: 4224: 4223: 4210: 4209: 4201:reliable sources 4196: 4195: 4165: 4164: 4131: 4130: 4025:Copyvio detector 4013: 3999: 3918: 3876: 3873: 3869: 3802: 3799: 3795: 3764: 3697: 3691: 3655: 3649: 3622: 3616: 3432:I was referring 3429: 3414: 3405: 3391: 3376: 3369: 3357: 3278: 3264: 3256: 3245: 3231: 3220: 2966:in and of itself 2756:Merriam Websters 2692: 2689: 2685: 2651: 2645: 2618: 2615: 2611: 2487:Merriam Websters 2478:Merriam Webster' 2453: 2447: 2328: 2322: 2264:Merriam Webster' 2244: 2238: 2151:encyclopaedic.-- 2102: 2096: 2068: 2065: 2061: 2025:Need I continue? 1991:Jesus Montero — 1953: 1950: 1946: 1913:hook's wording). 1854: 1848: 1830: 1827: 1823: 1751: 1745: 1567: 1561: 1285:Merriam Websters 1147: 1089: 1082: 1055: 1050: 1049: 1048: 1008: 1007: 1004: 1001: 998: 971: 966: 965: 964: 955: 948: 947: 942: 939: 928: 921: 716:Prisoner of Zion 657:Deletion sorting 571: 564: 563: 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