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have many such stores and even movie theaters where foreign films are shown without dubbing or subtitles. As globalization engulfs more and more countries, such examples will multiply manifold. All of those foreign items, however, do not, for the most part, enter into the cultural mainstream and are generally treated as if they were still part of the country in which they originated. Specific to our discussion are music stores which sell imported foreign recordings and DVDs of foreign films. As long as they are sold in those specialized locations, they are likely to be referred by their original names and bought by a specialized customer base. The situation changes if they are picked up by a mainstream distributor in an
English-speaking country and marketed to the general audience. I don't know how many foreign-language singles and album titles have been added to the
1380:. I quote what seems to be the consensus of the discussion: "There are three forms for any foreign-language title. Original language (200 по встречной), transliteration (200 Po Vstrechnoy) and translation (200 Against the Traffic). The article name should be the transliteration. This is because in the English-language Knowledge, we can't use non-Latin characters. Also, the translation is not strictly accurate. The original-form should (must) appear in the opening line of the article. The translated version should appear in the article as well, but this is not mandatory, it's just a good idea for informational purposes." –
489:: "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works)". This must be understood as requiring the main title header to state literal English translation of titles for which no standard or well-known English-language appellations exist. Redirects, of course will still enable editors to find the work in question via its original title. Although this is the
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840:). I don't see how are names of the foreign Operas connected to the names of the music albums? French or Italian operas have been performed in England since many centuries ago. In these times, it was usual to render their names to English. But, do you want to say that in the 1990s it was usual to render foreign music album and songs' names to English? I've never heard of something like that.
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per AjaxSmack. It doesn't make sense to me. (a) If we translate album titles, next logical step would be to also translate each song title on the album, and it would never end. (b) It would supposedly raise endless "article move wars" as editors wouldn't be able to agree on the "best" translation of
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Now, specifically to your points. All languages, unfortunately, are not
Wikipedically equal in this regard. Although German, French, Italian and Spanish titles as well as other aspects of their art and civilization are more ingrained in American culture than those of other languages, most of these
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gave as an example of a foreign-title album retaining its original title, or it might not, that proposition will need to be tested to determine community consensus. However, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Romanian, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish and Slavic-language titles (as well as others too
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and variations thereof in other Slavic languages). Original place names are generally retained except for major world cities and other key geographical designations which have traditional names in each language. Myriad discussions on talk pages of various locations present arguments for the use of
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This leads to the basic point you raised. Many countries have cosmopolitan distribution centers and tourist areas where foreign-language books, newspapers, magazines, CDs, DVDs, food items and many other imported things are sold under original names and with original text. Immigrant neighborhoods
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rules for appellations. Continents, numerous nations, as well as some cities, towns, villages, roads, seas, rivers, lakes, mountains, etc., have
English-language names which are substantially different from local and international usage. The instructions applicable to that set of designations are
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As indicated in the first message, this subject is extremely wide and we have barely begun to uncover its surface. I have attempted to initiate discussion in formulating a broad consensus which would include every form of title and expression. A useful starting point seemed to be already-existing
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were sold in the United States under these, native, names, and not under
English (translated) names. That is not the case with the movies, which are usually sold and marketed under translated names (in all countries, not just in the USA). So, you can't say that the naming convention should be same
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You gave some examples of
Knowledge articles that show how foreign movies' and operas' titles are translated to English. But can you give some examples to show how Music albums' names are translated? I read a lot about music albums from different countries, and I've noticed that their names are
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The basic rules still hold and any exceptions require consensus. And, of course, there is consensus for the many exceptions where original names are used and not their
English-language translations. The most obvious ones, outside of geographical features, are governmental, business and other
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a title. (c) Cross-referencing over the different language
Knowledge's would become extremely tedious. (d) I don't think we would ever be able to agree on the languages that would have the "right" to remain in their own language. I could for example argue that album titles in
493:, exceptions are made for some, but not the majority, of titles in the five most-commonly used Western European languages, German, French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. Rare exceptions are also made for well-known titles in Japanese and other non-Western languages.
367:, the subject obviously requires much greater elucidation to serve as a possible guideline and point for future discussion. As most Knowledge editors know, it has been a longtime policy to retain the original spelling of names and places rendered in the
990:. There are 254 Wikipedias, with over 100 of those in European languages. It would create a fairly chaotic situation if films, plays, novels, poems, songs, record albums, paintings, sculptures and other expressions of creative arts in languages from
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cultural examples, other than opera titles, are still rendered in
English. All other titles, in all other European languages utilizing the Latin alphabet, are entirely in English, other than exceptions for names and places, such as the Hungarian film
1306:(use common names). Album articles are at the title of the albums, not at a translation of the title. Knowledge doesn't allow for editors to unilaterally translate titles of any works with prior establishment of usage on the album itself. See
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which, well-known for its linguistic stance, stages all operas, including the most-famous ones, in
English. All other works of art, including the titles of some of the best-known German, French and Italian films are rendered in English. It's
883:. As regards opera, you are, of course, correct that in the English-speaking world, German, French and Italian operas have a longtime tradition of performance using original languages and titles, with some established exceptions, such as
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will, of course, still be able to access it via the redirect, as is the case with most foreign titles. The titles within the above messages which appear in red, do not yet have such redirects, but will, eventually. Needless to say,
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translates to "springroll" and move the article to that name, and it would take a Dane like me to come around and figure out that this is utter nonsense. Those are just a few arguments from the top of my head. –
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The "original language" indication, it should be noted, applies primarily to German, French and
Italian operas with exceptions for works in other languages, such as Russian, which use the name of a character—
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If the opera's title is rendered in its original language, capitalization should follow the usage in the most recent editions of New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians and New Grove Dictionary of Opera.
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Only a whole bunch of articles out of place--we don't just jumble everything starting with H together in one big heap, do we? We sort by more than the first letter. Someone did fix it, of course.
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In perspective, unless there is a clear consensus that all foreign-language albums should have main title headers in the original language (unlikely, since even the most far-reaching example,
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The titles of books, plays and films adhere to English almost entirely. The only exceptions are for easily-pronounced, well-established titles in German, French, Italian and Spanish such as
1170:, but each must be judged on its own merits. Just a glance at the six titles which you provided immediately suggests that while the short, easily-pronounceable titles without diacritics,
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have been allowed to remain in their original form. All such titles should and will be moved and as new ones are discovered, those too will be examined and considered on their merits.
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Even with the entertainment industry being as globalized as it is now, there is also no indication that any of those singles, albums or artists (with the exception of the Swedish "
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Works of art, in a wide definition, include novels, plays, poems, works of non-fiction, operas, songs, music albums, paintings, sculptures and myriad subcategories thereof. Only
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As previously stated, this is an extensive topic and more will be added in subsequent discussions. As to titles of record albums, even if the Knowledge community were to accept
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and many others are primarily known by their English-language titles. The same application extends not only to works of literature, but also to paintings and sculptures.
787:'s "original title" standard (no such consensus currently exists), it would still only apply to German, French, Italian and Spanish titles. The process might include
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institutions and, even more specifically, as regards this discussion, newspapers and magazines. No one would seriously consider referring to, for instance,
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would not need translation as it is widely understood in an English speaking country - South Africa. (e) An ill-meaning editor would be able to claim that
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will need to be tested to see if it requires an English-language main header or can pass Knowledge's community consensus under its original title.
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1425:. What can we do to ensure that the people making moves in accordance with requests are aware of the need to do things like this?
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Well, first of all, I don't see how are city names connected to the music albums' names in any way. And, second, why would
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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formulated naming conventions stating, specifically, "The name of the opera should be in its original language except:
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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would be completely unacceptable because of their complex and unpronounceable (to most English speakers) form.
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and numerous other designations, as well as political disputes over name usage, perhaps best exemplified by
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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and titles which express the names of people and places, all other languages are translated. All of
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is ever formed, consensus would probably only permit it to function along title-linguistic lines of
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was not specifically singled out for the move to an English-language title, while titles such as
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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and it is well listed under the letter "H". Maybe I am being thick - but what's the problem? –
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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When the opera is commonly known in English-speaking nations by another title (i.e.
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When the opera's full original title is widely known in an abbreviated form (i.e.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110715152705/http://www.ramboamadeus.com/music.php
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Archive_24#Song_titles_in_foreign_languages
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While this might be understandable in the general course of articles, it is
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As far as I can see, this article only belongs to one (existing) category,
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songs had English-language titles or English-language equivalents. All of
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If the opera's title is rendered in English, use standard English usage."
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and variations thereof in other Western European languages, rather than
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and should be moved to that title) and some Japanese titles such as
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totally unacceptable for a name which results from a requested move
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have also remained in their original form. As for the rest, it's
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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994:(Abkhazian Knowledge—no. 225 on the list, with 143 articles) to
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Knowledge:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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May I add that the issue has already been discussed here:
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set out consensus points on these issues. Among them are
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The names of the music albums should net be translated.
363:, I attempted to briefly state the justification in my
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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal.
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usually in their native languages. Examples include:
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1300:"The article name should be the title of the album"
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numerous to mention) face an extremely high hurdle.
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1516:This message was posted before February 2018.
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264:project page
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36:Hoćemo gusle
30:This is the
1209:En Karusell
1205:En Karusell
1191:Najkrashche
1106:Vanjagenije
1081:- Ukrainian
1079:Najkrashche
1061:En Karusell
1032:Greenlandic
981:Tito and Me
966:Victor Hugo
842:Vanjagenije
777:Dodesukaden
741:Apur Sansar
735:Apu Trilogy
390:Talk:Kraków
338:Vanjagenije
210:Start-class
159:free images
42:not a forum
1592:Categories
1579:Report bug
1337:AjaxSmack
940:'s films (
512:I Lombardi
268:discussion
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992:Abkhazian
987:Tito i ja
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32:talk page
1568:Cheers.—
1296:WP:ALBUM
1131:Le Monde
1069:- German
1012:Albanian
1008:Abkhazia
958:Schiller
621:Das Boot
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1492:my edit
1348:Support
1332:too. —
1302:), and
1288:Support
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1087:- Greek
1000:Georgia
830:Serbian
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594:Szibill
414:Beijing
398:Tbilisi
165:WP refs
153:scholar
1358:Værsgo
1304:WP:UCN
1275:(talk)
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1143:Pravda
1067:Mutter
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1028:Breton
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954:Goethe
810:(talk)
789:Alizée
753:Ugetsu
645:Volver
418:Peking
410:Bombay
406:Mumbai
402:Tiflis
394:Cracow
273:Albums
239:Albums
216:scale.
137:Google
1449:IbLeo
1382:IbLeo
1364:IbLeo
1292:WP:OR
606:Sybil
531:, or
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
1467:talk
1453:talk
1434:talk
1386:talk
1368:talk
1290:per
1263:and
1217:ABBA
1194:and
1176:and
1158:and
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1125:Bild
1110:talk
1034:and
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342:talk
328:talk
321:Move
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1536:RfC
1506:to
1146:as
824:or
765:Ran
357:to
187:TWL
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