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language" (what else?), making this difference rather unimportant. I kind of dislike both definitions; I think writing could exist without link to spoken language, e.g., ideograms unrelated to phonetic value. Even if that is rare-to-nonexistent in the real world, a hypothetical pure ideogram system should and would be considered writing, I think. But what I think does not matter; sources and experts do. So I ask: Is there any real difference in the circumscription of "writing" implied by the two versions?
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It's probably best to consider how the script is conceived of by the people who use it. Being raised with a (true) alphabet, it's easy for us to see abugidas as alphabetical. However, Ethiopic (the prototypical abugida) is learned and treated as a syllabary: each CV combination is learned and read as
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As far as I can see, the two versions say the same, except for one thing: Where the old says "verbal communication", the new says "a particular spoken language". In reality, I suppose "verbal communication" means "spoken language" (what else?), and a script representing it will represent a "specific
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I belive the Anglo-Saxon runes are are considered disctinct from the
Germantic runes due to the addition of a number of letters (seven in all, if I remember correctly). Wether this justifies listing as a seperate writing system is debateable, but the Anglo-Saxon runes are a not simply specific usage
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That's a bit of a philosophical difference: are we simply not bothering to write /a/ (as most vowels are treated in an abjad), or do we have a bunch of true /pa ta ka/ etc. syllables that are modified for other vowels? I guess you could ask the same thing about tone in the Latin alphabet: if the
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There is an incredible gap between "communication" and "language"—for one thing, many non-human animals are capable of the former but have never satisfactorily demonstrated the latter. "Verbal communication" is a needlessly roundabout way to say "language", and may be more easily conflated with
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a separate syllable; similarities between syllables are simply convenient mnemonics. Thus the old label "alphasyllabary": alphabetic in conception, but syllabic in use. Something similar occurs with Hangul: its conception may be featural, but it's learned and used just like an alphabet.
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I've always found this thing confusing. As I see it, in syllabaries, every syllable is represented by a grapheme, with usually no visual correspondence between related syllables. Whereas, in abugidas, there's a base syllable which is "modified" by markers, such as those for vowels in
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You cannot have a writing system without a language, but can even have multiple ones (e.g. Chinese). Every human language has a spoken form, which can be vocal-aural or gestural-visual. Some languages have multiple written forms, which are usually visual or
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825:. So why is it a given that abugidas have to have an inherent vowel (acc. to the article)? Why can't it be that the base grapheme in an abugida represents only the consonant? Or if such a writing system is termed something different, what would it be?
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Relatedly, the ability to represent spoken language is indeed present in most coherent definitions of "writing" and "writing system" I've read in the literature. Due to the first difference being enormous, this too is an enormous difference.
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without changing the source. I do not have access to the source, but it looks like we now may have text not supported by the source given. Can someone please either verify, possibly replace the source, or revert the change?
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I don't know how Indian abugidas are conceived of by their users. However, given the natural human bias toward syllabaries, I wouldn't be surprised if each basic letter were considered an inherent syllable by most users.
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How come "Runic
Futhark" and "Anglo-Saxon Futhorc" both gets mentioned? The Old English variant is a bit different, I agree, but so is Slovene and Hungarian and German, you don't see them listed with special entries??
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a spoken language, because in reality their relationship is always way more complex and by no means unidirectional. Meanwhile, “spoken” has been removed from the sentence, which makes it a lot bette already. —
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Not as far as I can tell from sources. While this is one of the stickiest wickets imaginable, writing tends to be defined by linguists and lexicographers as representing spoken language.
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Representing “verbal communication” is something different than “a particular spoken language” – and the former better describes what a writing system actually does. —
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interested in improving
Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of content related to the fields of rhetoric, composition, technical communication, literacy, and language studies.
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A writing system comprises a particular set of symbols, called a script, as well as the rules by which the script represents a particular spoken language.
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A writing system is a method of visually representing verbal communication based on a script and an orthography or set of rules regulating its use.
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I don't understand the relevancy of the link "A Typographic Outcry: a curious perspective". Can someone elaborate? The link also exists in
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I agree that "represents" creates that connotation, which I myself also have the same issue with. What do you suggest to improve it?
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on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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What I have an issue with is the notion that a writing system governs how a written language
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There's a lot of vertical space in this article that could potentially be fashioned into a
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have an inherent mid tone that is modified by adding diacritics? Not so straightforward.
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Of course, if the current text correctly reflects the source, all is good - thank you!
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I've been thinking about this, and would replacing "language" with "
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I am taking another pass as we speak, thank you for your vigilance.
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and phonetic representation are distinct.<ref name="Bagley": -->
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does not mention "character" at all. Please see my comment on
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Wiki
Education assignment: Linguistics in the Digital Age
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of
Germantic runes. -- Levi Aho 2004-12-21 13:32:27 (UTC)
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better describes what a writing system actually does
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