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is easily an "established expert on the subject matter" but I'm not aware of publications with traditional outfits that would meet the second part of the sentence. So, sadly, I don't think we can include his review, even though it would greatly enrich the article. I'd say policy is overly strict here
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You're leaning very heavily on this "self serving" clause. Everything anyone ever said was probably self serving in some sense. But there's nothing unduly self-serving about this summarized description of
Kratman's career. It's not like we're sourcing awards or commendations or the like solely to the
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People's claims about their own biography are normally accepted on good faith unless there is something suspicious about them, which is not the case here. Normally, only the very most famous people get unauthorized biographies and third parties independently trying to verify this sort of thing. As it
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Specifically: a) Kratman's combat service in Iraq is highly relevant for his books, both for the authenticity of his battle descriptions and his depiction of muslims which has been the subject of critical commentary. b) Mentioning his deployments to Panama pays off when the article starts discussing
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I think I'm basically done here, for now at least. I think the present article is decent. If someone wanted to expand it I think the main avenues would be a) by adding more in the way of plot summaries of
Kratman's works, b) maybe some relevant comments Kratman has made in interviews and such (with
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It's not "self-serving" to say that you were in Panama! Lots of people are in Panama. Some people are in Panama all the time. It's not some special or outlandish or "self-serving" claim to be skeptical of. I don't think it's "unduly self-serving" either to accept the claim of an experienced officer
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We can use both. Policy does not prohibit us from citing his autobiography as long as we are not overly reliant on it, and the article is ever less reliant on it. But key facts which I haven't found documented elsewhere is that he was deployed to Panama and Iraq. This is something we can and should
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self-serving. Citing self-authored stuff for that kind of thing is allowed by policy and fairly routine. There's definitely a problem with too much of the present article consisting of this stuff but we would ideally solve that by adding information from secondary sources, some of which I suggested
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This biography issue is legitimately challenging. Normally we wouldn't bother with more than a sentence or two of self-sourced biographic detail but here it's just so relevant that it's hard to really cut it down. There's so much pay-off for the biography section later on in the article.
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At least two of the three "awards" listed are actualy just nominations. This is a significant difference that should be clear noted. Since two of those nominations were the result of an effort to take control of the awards, this should probably be noted in a "Controversy" section.
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that he served in the Gulf War. We know this guy ended his military career at the faculty of the War
College. This is not some random guy making up war stories. And the readers will be able to see for themselves that we are sourcing parts of this to the man himself.
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Shouldn't that be a topic for the Hugo's page? There is a long unsullied history of Hugo Awards for many of the most esteemed authors in any genre, along with sci-fi's brightest lights. Or does every winning author's page now need a footnote to address that issue?
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Okay, I reorganized this. Now we have the book source to beef up the autobiography dates. Then we have a sentence at the end which mentions Panama and Iraq and is specifically attributed within the text to
Kratman's website. Do you like this version better?
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Apparently I am too stupid to figure out how to edit the text displayed after a reference for references 2 and 3. Can somebody help me out here and tell me how to insert custom text in a reference so it shows the text I want instead of just the reference
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But it is a major part of his writing persona, his military experience informing his writing (you even make that clear yourself) is very much a part of how he is marketed. Also this should not a hagiography that parrots
Kratmans
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Anything that can be seen as unduly self serving (and yes claims used in marketing are just that) should not be sourced to primary sources. It does not matter if there is a "pay off" latter in the article.
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cite him on since it is relevant for his books. We know from reliable sources that he had a long and distinguished military career, it's fine to get a couple of key details on that from himself.
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This wasn't the most prestigious site but it did have an editorial policy of sorts and some standards, especially for its "scholars" like
Klausner. I noticed that the review is listed in
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As they have been present for at least two years anything marked as CN, or that uses a primary source will removed. Articles need to be based upon verifiable secondary sources.
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This is a reputable edited publication and it briefly recaps his career. The text is available at the
Internet Archive if you register there and has also made its way here:
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If we are going to refer to his nomination for a Hugo why do we not also include allegation of vote rigging? This was a major accusation surrounding the sad puppies affair.
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And (as you later realized yourself but I'm putting this here for the record) he was called up again in 2003 and retired again in 2006. So there is no discrepancy.
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I guess we could work in a little footnote which would incidentally serve to confirm
Kratman's highest rank and position. I may take a stab at this.
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It is not, I think it is a major part of his publishing image, Ex-solder. Its part of how he is promoted (and thus is promotional in nature).
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We nor have two sources making claims about the vote hacking, one mentions (explicitly
Kratnmans publisher). Also we now have this
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happens, we can have verification from military publications of
Kratman's LTC rank and position at the War College. See e.g. this:
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which would be a dicey source under current policy. The Harriet Klausner review from allscifi.com would be easier to justify.
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I might be wrong, but a number of third party RS cites seem to have been replaced with tom Kratmans own site, why?
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I agree it shouldn't be a hagiography but a balanced article. To beef up the bio sourcing a bit we can cite
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I will start marking unsourced claims with Citation needed tags soon, please try and provide some sources.
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anthology. Let's see, Tangent comments on it at some length. Actually, maybe I'll add that now after all.
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I will also start to remove anything that is unsourced by doe not have a CN tag, enough is enough.
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Which is why I said merge (but with the sad puppies rather then the Hugos) over at the AFD.
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The known sources are mostly exploited already. There is a fanzine review in the list at
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If someone wanted to, some of Kratman's books could be spun out for separate articles –
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I will rewrite the section to add sources and address your concerns as much as I can.
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He's presumably just taking K's claims on good faith, which I think is reasonable.
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Removing unsourced claims is reasonable but for mundane biographical details keep
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Note that Nicholson relays Kratman's biography on page 268 of his thesis.
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Define Mundane, most of it is about his career, that is self serving.
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No? I don't think we ever had third party cites that were removed.
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And here is why we do not sue primary sources according to this
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They are the only three, and none of them saw him win.
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is rather forgiving and we have the sources already.
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and should be changed but for now it is what it is.
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We need some secondary RS his own claims are not RS.
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80:.
55:(
38:.
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