2519:. Quite the endeavor, to be sure. When I got to Lemuroidea, I knew I'd have some issues. For now, I'm using a toggle to display both Horvath's and Orlando's phylogenies (though without the extinct taxa). I made an effort to also include the intrageneric phylogenies. Doing some research, I found a number of papers, but most of them are just using Horvath or Orlando to lay things out. Fair enough, those papers help show that both Horvath and Orlando are reasonably equally accepted understandings. Since they were both 14 years ago, I figured to keep digging, and I found a paper from 2016 that supports extinct taxa and also updates the family phylogenies. Here's their layout and reference.
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Groves's book, but the other two sources don't talk about genetic evidence that doesn't place cheirogaleids within lemurs. Also, it may be better to drop the cite to Yoder et al. (1996), since it doesn't discuss this point specifically (as far as I can tell) and is now prehistoric for a molecular study.
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The bad: When including the extinct taxa, Indriidae is paraphyletic, but
Herrera doesn't make any recommendations as to erecting a new family (Avahiidae probably as Propithecidae is taken), leaving us with no resolution but to discuss Indriidae's paraphyleticism. (Paraphyleticness? I like coining new
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In the sentence "However, relevant genetic studies nearly unanimously place cheirogaleids within the lemuriform clade and Groves himself, who had promoted the cheirogaleid-lorisiform relationship in a 1974 paper, by 2001 regarded the idea as refuted.", is there a reason for the "nearly"? I don't have
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At the time, I did not have access to
Tattersall's volume, and I believe none of my other sources at the time mentioned the karyotypes of each lemur species/genus/family. Basically, I was restricted to one source, and that was the information it provided. Now that I have more information, should I
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I originally added one because my talks with Dr. Godfrey and Dr. Yoder suggested that recent research was resulting in some agreement, and the (peer-reviewed) cladogram shown favored that agreement. Another problem is that one cladogram includes subfossil lemur families and the other does not. What
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I've not taken the time, but it looks like this work has been cited nearly 100 times, so perhaps this phylogeny has taken root over the other two? Might it be time to switch things up, or should we just add this to the list of competing phylogenies? I'll place a pointer to this talk on some of the
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I wasn't quite sure how to add this, plus most karyotype studies are buried in other molecular studies, so it would take a lot of digging through the research to see which ones used it. I've added an example to that paragraph. Let me know if that's good, and if not, I can do some more looking
1589:, I just need to find a reference that talks about the shift. If needed, I guess I can cite Lamberton directly... As for the suggested expansion, do you feel that is necessary in order to meet the comprehensiveness requirement at FAC? I'm a little worried such work might come across more as
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Yoder was wrong—I just checked both LoM1 & LoM2. I think I have an email to this effect from Yoder. If I remember correctly, I asked her about this discrepancy, and I think she said that she just did a quick count. Anyway, I'm not sure why I kept it as a reference. I've adjusted that
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At the time, it sounded more controversial, since papers that I found about these fossil species seemed relatively new. From my interactions with the experts and from what I've seen of the more recent literature, I think you're right. I'll remove "nearly" as well as the Yoder ref.
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That may be true, but I have never seen anything in the literature to that effect. Conservation drives a lot of research, and most are concerned with preservation of their native habitat. I just don't think I would have any good sources, except maybe the IUCN Red List.
1535:"Second, the divergence of the remaining families occurred approximately 42 mya;"—what split is that? Between the aye-aye and the rest or the split among the non-aye-aye lemurs? If the latter, "remaining" is wrong; if the "former", the argument doesn't make sense.
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are your thoughts about having two cladograms in the article, one with eight lemur families and the other with five? I really don't want to omit the subfossil lemurs, but at the same time, listing them requires giving one phylogeny preference over another. –
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The "Notes"section is mildly misleading: the way it is placed implies that it includes notes fro the entire article,but clearly it was only ever intended to accompany the table. How about putting them in a table footer, like so (table simplified for example):
1257:"both through the discovery of new species and the elevation of existing subspecies to full species status"—and also the recognition of previously known populations that were not even distinct subspecies to species level, if I'm not mistaken.
1730:"In the case of the true lemurs, the diploid number ranges from 2n=48 to 2n=60 while the individual chromosome sizes vary considerably"—why are true lemurs mentioned here, as opposed to other groups that have been studied karyologically?
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For me, I don't like the repeated "of". Other titles I considered were "Taxonomy of lemurs" or "Taxonomy and phylogeny of lemurs". Do you prefer either of those? Also, I'd want to solicit some more opinions before I change it.
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The grand total of species and subspecies for each year will not equal the sum of the species total and the subspecies total since each subspecies group already counts as one species. For example, in 2010 three subspecies of
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To be honest, I don't know... and none of my sources (that I can find) talks about the effects of habitat loss. In LoM3, the map shows some ?'s around its range, so I don't know how much contiguous forest is has access to.
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1702:"but which still disperses and interbreeds with nearby populations."—or which did so until recently? I can imagine that it is now totally isolated due to habitat loss, but perhaps the source does not talk about that.
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Good catch. The source talks about the hallux, so I'm not sure why I linked the pollex (thumb). Anyway, aye-ayes, like the rest of the lemurs, have pseudo-opposable thumbs—it has to do with its range of movement.
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808:. It used to be "Lemur evolutionary history". Honestly, it all boils down to opinion. So unless there are strong objections based on good, solid reasons, I'll probably go with "Taxonomy of lemurs". –
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Well, the recognition of a new genus is still a change in genus-level classification—the list of genera changes. You also talk about newly discovered species in the species-level section. I think
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True, but species that got introduced to the
Comoros presumably had their populations grow (perhaps not enough to offset habitat loss in Madagascar itself). Well, we'll just let it be.
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In fact, it's identical to the old cladogram I had. See DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.21236 and let me know if you want me to restore the old cladogram and mention the new one in the text. –
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This occurs in the context of a discussion of species-level taxonomy, so I think you'd best give examples where karyology helped in determining taxonomy. I think that occurred in
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due to issues of size. I will be making minor changes to ensure that the article is still comprehensive and properly stands alone. In the meantime, I will be running it through
1574:(first named in 1990)? If you want to expand, there is of course a large number of old and weird genus-level classifications; Gray (1870) for example placed all cheirogaleids in
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reference as well as the others so that they point to specific pages that give the number of species or taxa, instead of a range of pages where all the species are listed. –
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1667:"The first large wave of new lemur species descriptions came in 2001"—this may depend on your definition of "wave", but in 2000, we already got a lot of additional
1399:"naturalists and explorers, such as Alfred Grandidier and Alphonse Milne-Edwards."—I'm not sure, but I thought A. Milne-Edwards was also rather a museum systematist
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Lol! As soon as I get done adding both competing phylogenies, Dr. Godfrey sends a recent publication that has worked out a new phylogeny based on both
Orlanda
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Herrera, James P.; Dávalos, Liliana M. (September 2016). "Phylogeny and
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Done. Some references cannot be replaced, though. Comments made in the "Introduction" section, for instance, may not be made again in later editions. –
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The current titel could be interpreted as meaning the history of lemurs told in a taxonomic way. How about changing to
History of taxonomy of lemurs? --
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If a new, more inclusive study gets published, we can use their cladogram, but in the meantime, it'll be better to give both, I think.
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Ucucha said it perfectly. Anyway, the table concludes the article and the notes immediately follow, so I don't really see an issue. –
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because it was a temporary change that was reverted, but if you feel it deserves a second mention in the article, just let me know. –
1102:. Together, they count as one species, which is already included in the species total for that year. The same applies that year for
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1753 should be 1758, shouldn't it? If I recall correctly, we looked at the 1753 edition and found that it didn't contain any lemurs.
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781:"History of lemur taxonomy"? Or perhaps just "Taxonomy of lemurs"—any account of their taxonomy is going to have historical data.
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Thanks for fixing both of those. The fossil studies are indeed fairly recent, but of course they are not "genetic studies".
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We're talking about species populations, not localized populations. There are no distinct species on the
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As a sidenote, the formatting of the table could be easily and greatly simplified (which I don't mind doing myself).
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790:"History of lemur taxonomy" is much better and "History of" can be skipped if if this is not limited to history. --
655:-related subjects on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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There's some good and some bad here. First, the results seem to be a compromise between
Horvath and Orlando. The
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wasn't a "change" (with species being moved out of an existing genus), which was the point of that list. As for
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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words...or is it paraphyly? I think that's it.) However, this does at least resolve the trichotomy in
Orlando.
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Have you tried replacing as many cites to LoM2 as possible with LoM3 cites? Better to cite the last edition.
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I have mentioned that is was in terms of absolute numbers. Feel free to re-word if you see the need. –
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If there are multiple possible phylogenies for lemurs, why does the cladogram show only one possibility?
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I suppose it could include notes from the entire article; all notes just happen to be from that table.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120204185943/http://www.bucknell.edu/msw3/browse.asp?s=y&id=12100001
1311:"the populations of all species have decreased"—even the species that got introduced to the Comoros?
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1981:
I'm sorry... I missed this post and replied to your suggestion at the FAC. Please check there. –
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Yoder (2007) says LoM1 had 33 species (32 in this article) and LoM2 "more than 70" (68 here).
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Was thinking I would find a lemurs navigation template at the end of the article. Regards,
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I've removed him from the list, because the sources treat him as a co-author if at all. –
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I'm trying to stay consistent after a back-and-forth dispute over the name of the article
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Let me know if it reads better now. You were right—"remaining" was used incorrectly. –
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I think you have room for a bit more illustration with some pictures of nice lemurs.
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http://www.mwc-info.net/en/services/Journal_PDF%27s/Issue1/Flagshipspecies.pdf
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usually it refers to the big toe of the foot. Then, ¿aye-aye have opposable
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I will definitely add some more pictures once I have the cladograms done. –
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I've been working on a whole Order of Primates phylogenic tree in
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Especially since it fails to name which of the two it describes.
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http://www.nsrl.ttu.edu/publications/opapers/specpubs/SP49.pdf
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Good catch. Let me know if the added text is sufficient. –
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In "Genus-level classification", shouldn't you also mention
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http://www.bucknell.edu/msw3/browse.asp?s=y&id=12100001
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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In the "Suprageneric classification" section we can read "
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cover it more in-depth? Or would a table suffice? –
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Thanks for your fixes; I will now pass the article.
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has increased more in relative terms (4.5x) than in
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Lemur species and subspecies count by year and genus
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1634:Good point. They've been added. I didn't discuss
228:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as
1812:do of course have the largest absolute increases.
1261:Thanks. Let me know if the change reads okay. –
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230:Today's featured article
2401:External links modified
2291:External links modified
2181:External links modified
2061:External links modified
2023:or opposable thumbs? --
3573:Toggle genus display
1288:Good catch. Fixed. –
579:WikiProject Madagascar
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320:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
3689:10.1093/sysbio/syw035
1636:Lepilemur/Megaladapis
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100:Neutral point of view
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2120:regular verification
390:WikiProject Primates
266:Good article nominee
105:No original research
2525:Lemuroid Phylogeny
2440:After February 2018
2330:After February 2018
2220:After February 2018
2110:After February 2018
1967:Navigation template
1570:until c. 1979) and
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741:History of taxonomy
646:WikiProject Mammals
232:on August 31, 2019.
210:Knowledge community
3677:Systematic Biology
3296:Paleopropithecidae
3244:Paleopropithecidae
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52:Learn to edit
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332:WikiProjects
300:
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264:
259:May 25, 2011
214:please do so
203:
195:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
3631:, but that
3628:Lemur catta
3606:Daubentonia
3600:Megaladapis
3476:Propithecus
3266:Propithecus
2641:Megaladapis
2573:Daubentonia
1233:transcluded
861:Tattersall
148:free images
31:not a forum
3722:Categories
3663:References
2965:Pachylemur
2856:Microcebus
2539:Lemuroidea
2501:Report bug
2391:Report bug
2281:Report bug
2171:Report bug
1973:SunCreator
1806:Microcebus
1769:around. –
1673:Microcebus
1619:Pachylemur
1617:discusses
1587:Pachylemur
1564:Pachylemur
1186:Authorship
1172:GA toolbox
959:subspecies
949:subspecies
939:subspecies
929:subspecies
919:subspecies
909:subspecies
461:Madagascar
205:identified
3649:Hapalemur
3637:Hapalemur
3612:Hapalemur
3595:Indriidae
3591:Lemuridae
3331:Babakotia
3197:Indriidae
3039:Hapalemur
2931:Lemuridae
2815:Allocebus
2711:Lepilemur
2484:this tool
2477:this tool
2374:this tool
2367:this tool
2264:this tool
2257:this tool
2154:this tool
2147:this tool
1810:Lepilemur
1802:Lepilemur
1757:Lepilemur
1583:Babakotia
1576:Lepilemur
1572:Babakotia
1245:Reviewer:
1209:Templates
1200:Reviewing
1165:GA Review
1104:Hapalemur
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
3708:UtherSRG
3696:27113475
3633:L. catta
3609:. Also,
2490:Cheers.—
2380:Cheers.—
2270:Cheers.—
2160:Cheers.—
1890:Comments
1804:(3.7x).
1675:species.
1214:Criteria
856:Schwarz
404:Primates
395:Primates
351:Primates
322:FA-class
290:Promoted
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3065:Eulemur
2982:Varecia
2414:my edit
2304:my edit
2194:my edit
2074:my edit
1623:Varecia
1432:Circéus
1119:Circéus
954:species
944:species
934:species
924:species
914:species
904:species
875:Groves
689:on the
662:Mammals
607:Mammals
542:on the
431:on the
249:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
3711:(talk)
3623:simius
2767:Phaner
2025:Furado
2021:hallux
2017:hallux
2015:, but
1935:Ucucha
1922:Ucucha
1882:Ucucha
1850:Ucucha
1840:Ucucha
1761:Ucucha
1627:Ucucha
1500:et al.
1496:et al.
1467:Ucucha
1337:Ucucha
1248:Ucucha
1134:Ucucha
1098:, and
966:Totals
792:Ettrig
783:Ucucha
747:Ettrig
718:WP:GAN
652:mammal
515:Africa
506:Africa
456:Africa
328:scale.
271:Listed
252:Result
126:Google
3645:simus
3643:, so
3459:Avahi
3260:Avahi
3211:Indri
3022:Lemur
2839:Mirza
2049:talk
2013:thumb
1991:talk
1953:talk
1910:talk
1867:talk
1826:talk
1798:Avahi
1779:talk
1745:talk
1717:talk
1689:talk
1648:talk
1603:talk
1568:Lemur
1549:talk
1512:talk
1484:talk
1455:talk
1413:talk
1386:talk
1355:talk
1325:talk
1298:talk
1271:talk
1235:from
1151:talk
899:genus
891:et al
882:et al
868:et al
818:talk
771:talk
730:talk
198:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3693:PMID
2029:talk
1808:and
1671:and
1593:. –
1436:talk
1123:talk
887:2010
878:2006
873:2005
864:1994
859:1982
854:1931
796:talk
751:talk
423:High
246:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
3685:doi
2458:RfC
2428:to
2348:RfC
2318:to
2238:RfC
2208:to
2128:RfC
2098:to
2088:to
1069:101
681:Mid
534:Mid
176:TWL
3724::
3691:.
3681:65
3679:.
3651:.
3639:+
3593:+
3585:+
3263:+
2471:.
2466:}}
2462:{{
2361:.
2356:}}
2352:{{
2251:.
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2242:{{
2141:.
2136:}}
2132:{{
2039:–
2031:)
1900:–
1707:–
1438:)
1345:–
1125:)
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1021:97
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893:.
884:.
870:.
798:)
761:–
753:)
586:).
459::
156:)
54:;
3698:.
3687::
3403:†
3383:†
3347:†
3327:†
3293:†
3241:†
3161:†
3141:†
3114:†
2961:†
2613:†
2503:)
2499:(
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2389:(
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2279:(
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2169:(
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2027:(
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