1397:- Patton saved the 101st in Bastogne (the story being as soon as he heard word of the counter-offensive, he told his generals to change directions and fight to the north and west, before given the command, getting it 2 days later, and already having his forces only 2 more days away from attacking the southern shoulder of the buldge) and of his brilliant offensive in Operation Cobra where he pushed his troops 600 miles in 2 weeks, with the help of a few other allied units. Also, the author Keith D. Dickson, a lt-colonel in the US army and professor of military studies at the joint forces staff college, national defense university, says of Patton in his book on WWII "He was ruthless in carrying out his plans and sought to move rapidly against th eenemy. He was at his best in exploiting enemy weaknesses and maneuvering rapidly. Patton was so emotionally tied to soldierly ideals sometimes he lashed out at those who he believed did not live up to those ideals.... Patton chafed at restrictions placed on him due to political decisions and didn't hesitate to share his opinion with superiors, specifically Alllied Supreme Commander Eisenhower and American General Omar Bradley."--
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Ted have that opposition-wise, the situation was much more difficult on Omaha than Utah did Ted have? Ted was on the 1st wave at Utah. Norm Cota was on the second wave at Ohama. Political and family considerations - If Ted had NOT died weeks after D-Day, being a hard core
Republican, it is UNlikely that FDR would have backed a MOH recommendation for Ted on the part of its sponsors. On an inner Roosevelt family perspective. There had been an enormous rift between FDR and Eleanor, on one hand, and Ted and Alice Roosevelt, over Eleanor's effective blocking of Ted's success in the NY govenor campaign when Eleanor literally drove around from one appearance of Ted on the stump, with a tea pot on a car supplied by the democrats successfully (but UNfairly, as Ted and his brother Archie helped to UNcovered the scandal) linking Ted to the
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Americans, by the millions, went off to war largely untested by combat."? We are writing an encyclopaedia, not a Mills and Boon romance novel. No offence, but please familiarise yourself with e.g. WP:NPOV, WP:Reliable
Sources etc etc etc. and then we can discuss it again. Those edits were blatantly your POV and had absolutely nothing by way of citation to back them up (not that such intrinsically POV material can ever really be sourced anyway). Any reasonable Knowledge editor will remove this sort of nonsense on sight, as I did. I defy you to find any experienced editor who would do anything but giggle at that kind of prose, and I mean no offence by that, you are obviously invested in the article and no doubt have a lot to offer. But not with that kind of material. Badgerpatrol 12:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
2297:, I strongly oppose. Not only would it be confusing, it would be incorrect. While TR Jr may have been the third in line to hold that name, his legal name appears to have been Theodore Roosevelt Jr. I can't find his birth certificate, but it is the name used in announcing his birth, the name used on his Affidavit of Marriage, on all of his official military records and his grave marker. His son, Theodore Roosevelt III used that name exclusively during his lifetime. This was the name he used on census records, his military records and grave marker. Next in line, Theodore Roosevelt IV is still living and has used that name exclusively during his life. I think it is a good idea to add footnotes to each article in order to explain the numbering issue, but do not believe the titles should be changed.
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impetous, arrogant and self-promoting?" The evidence beyond my mere opinion is incredible. Patton himself spoke of these aspects of his personality. Please defend your points that this characterization of him is NOT simply common knowledge of anyone who has read 3-4 biographies. Hey, it gave the man color. I suggest you read both his own biography as well as 2-3 that are out there. I admire the guy's so-called good points but don't make excuses for the other less "friendly" aspects of his character. If you read several biographies of Ted Jr, you WILL see that he WAS, in fact, a soldier's soldier - a HECK of lot more than Omar
Bradley, whom I've come to realize was NOT what he portrayed himself to be. Look at THAT man's pre-WWII record.
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1458:). If you agree with the first link, find me a source that says that Roosevelt was "a soldier's soldier" and quote it directly. If you agree with the second link, find me a source (i.e. Marshall's own diaries or someone else's personal recollections of a dialogue with him) where he says "I see in Ted Roosevelt the kind of intelligence and aggressive instinct that will be needed..." yada yada yada. If you can, fine, it's still poorly phrased crap that adds nothing to the article, but at least it's sourced. But if you can't find suitable sources...then the material cannot go in. I'm afraid that's how Knowledge works.
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the United States declared war on
Germany, given a major's commission, Ted volunteered to be of the first soldiers to go France. There, Ted had distinguished himself as the best battalion commander in his division per the division commander, himself. He had braved hostile fire and gas and had led his battalion in combat. So concerned was he for his men's welfare that he had even purchased combat boots for the entire battalion with his own money. Before the troops even came home from France, he had originated and championed the idea of a soldier's organization that would become the
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a very popular officer, and certainly his name did not hurt the campaign to give him the award. But in all objectivity, neither award was merited because neither action was remotely "above & beyond." TR Sr. was a regimental commander who commanded his regiment, period. Jr. was an asst. division cdr. doing what BGs do. If anyone deserved an MoH for actions "below and beyond" it was Norman Cota, asst. cdr. of the 29th Div., who performed almost every function expected of 2nd lts. up to BGs, on Omaha Beach--a far, far tougher situation than Utah.
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what Simon was saying. The 2nd link you give me I would say is perfectly fair, common and widely documented and puplished knowledge, and even puts Ted in a good light, but the 1st link, although true, I think should be included, but not in that sort of way. He was brash, but brashness could be defined and misinterpreted as aggresivly rude, instead of agressiveness. So I would support putting in the 1st link with a few changes, and I would enthustiastically (or however you spell it) support the 2nd link. --
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1509:. They would team up again when Cota was given the rank of Brigadier General, and was assistant commander of the 29th. Division, that took Omaha Beach, that was next to Utah Beach during the D-Day Operations. Both Cota and Roosevelt's spouses, Constance Martha Alexander-Cota and Eleanore Butler-Rossevelt were also distant cousins.
1336:. This activity by Eleanor undoubtedly significantly hurt Ted's chances for success in New York. Now, with Ted dead, and any political threat from him removed, supporting the MOH on his behalf CERTAINLY must have gone a LONG way to repair the damage, hurt and bad feelings between the Hyde Park and Oyster Bay Roosevelts.
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instead, saying "D-Day: Quentin
Roosevelt was killed during WWI when he was shot during aerial combat. Only Ted, Archie, and Kermit survived". I noticed that the article about Archie does not mention this, that it says that he reentered service for WW-II as a lieutenant colonel, and that it says that
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Having recently read many of the available sources on Ted
Roosevelt's life and accomplishments, I must say that this is one of the best Knowledge articles I've ever read. So far as I am able to judge, it is spot-on, both in terms of accuracy and capturing the man's character. I don't see POV. It does
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Are you referring to these edits by any chance (, )? Can you please tell me for example how you know that "Ted" was "a soldier's soldier"? Or that "U.S. Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall saw in Ted the kind of intelligence and aggressive instinct that would be needed as a new generation of young
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It may be difficult to maintain NPOV, but Teddy Sr. and Jr's MoHs were both extremely political, and IMO that fact should be addressed. (Teddy Sr.'s award was one of the last things Bill
Clinton did in office, presenting the gong to TR's grand-nephew, IIRC, 100 years after the event.) Teddy Jr. was
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tag following this unsupported assertion about Archie (or was it
Quentin?). It looks like the article about Archie might need editing as well, depending on what other sources say about all this -- perhaps Ten had sons named Quentin and/or Archie who have no WP articles as well as brothers with those
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Uh, isn't the grave given in this article that of his dad or grand-dad or second cousin? The article says some soldier's cemetery in normandy and shows a picture of a standard
Government Issue grave cross (how insensitive - trying to impose christian evangelism on soldiers.....) but the link to the
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Since
President Theodore Roosevelt's father died before Theodore Jr. was born, it was up to the discretion of the family as to the use of "Junior" and "III". The same situation applied with George S. Patton, Jr., the World War II general, whose grandfather, the first George S. Patton, died before he
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As to the politics, There were both personal as WELL as political considerations re Ted's MOH, - Agree on the comparison of Ted and Cota (who was, by the way, a cousin of the Roosevelts). Omaha beach, indeed, was a far tougher situation that Utah. But consider this - just HOW much information did
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What I wrote and on a couple of occasions has been removed and me putting it back together: "Although he did not seek it, Ted was mentioned as a potential candidate for the 1936 Republican presidential nomination. If Ted had gotten the 1936 Republican presidential nomination he would have face off
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Yes, it is brilliant to see you as well. Yes, I must say, I see it as fair and truthful, because although it would normally be considered original research, I must say because it is in many of Patton's biographies, those certainly are common traits about him. However, I must disagree with part of
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Where is your proof that Mr. Roosevelt, Jr's Medal of Honor was political? It sounds more of an opinion. He was the only general that went in on the first wave of D-Day and when the boats placed his unit far from the landing point, he did his own reconnaissance and made a new plan on the spot that
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He had wanted to be a soldier since early childhood. Talked out of West Point by his father, Ted nevertheless volunteered to attend the Plattsburgh Officer Candidates School in New York, and there had distinguished himself as a young officer candidate in the summers leading up to World War I. When
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On editor removed my description of Gen George Patton's "brashness, impetuosity, arrogance and a self-promoting style" shameless POV. While I actually admire much about Patton, can you list even ONE modern reputable professional historian or Patton biographer who does NOT consider Patton "brash,
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The article states that Gen. Roosevelt was the only general to land with the first wave. I have no reliable data, but I understood that General Norman L Gotha, assistant division commander of US 29th division, came ashore with the first wave on Omaha beach; I cannot find a reliable source. Any
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Side note: According to Alfred "Ed Moch" Cota, additional family cousin connections between Gen. Theodore Roosevelt Jr.(III), and Gen. Norman D. Cota... Both Ted's spouse, Eleanore Butler Alexander-Roosevelt and Norman's spouse, Constance Martha Alexander-Cota are found to be related "distant
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I read in "The Lion's Pride," a book about Teddy Roosevelt and his family by Edward Renehan, that Ted, Jr. was the most decorated soldier of WW II. I always thought that Audie Murphy was the most decorated, but maybe he meant most decorated and surviving soldier. Can anyone confirm this as
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I don't dispute his claims re Patton- that wasn't the shameless POV I originally noted. It was the asinine rose-tinted "Ted was a soldier's soldier" nonsense that I particularly took umbrage with (although that is not to say that the Patton claims do not have to sourced too in themselves-
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In the two weeks that this move request has been open, no one (including the nominator) has actually !voted for or against it. There is no prejudice for someone to immediately re-nominate, but per Dekimasu, it should only be done by someone actually advocating for such a
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with some reluctance per my above comments. It actually would give their accurate identities (which often seem to have been missed on when it wrongfully gets downplayed how the President's father was the original Theodore), but not what they most often are known as.
1106:. In between wars, Ted continued to attend professional officer training classes. Although not a West Point graduate or a career regular Army officer, any casual reader has to ask how Ted was not a soldier in almost every sense except in Patton's spit-shinned way.
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Personally, I must agree with Simon. It's said that his brashness and such was what made him the leader he was- the leader that took risks, didn't wait around for orders, but got out and did them himself. A professional which supports this is the respected author
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even though such moves would avoid misleading impressions about their suffixes (the President's son was indeed Theodore III, so on and so forth), I'm not sure they'd comply with WP:COMMONNAME, which says to use what subjects are most commonly known by.
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Article names are based upon common names, as noted above. Beyond that, please avoid filing move requests that no one is requesting. The community has already been deciding what article titles are best for these people over a period of years, and yet
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I just did a heavy edit on the "World War II service and death" section. In the process, I removed a block of text from the end of the "Roosevelt's leadership style clashes" subsection because it repeated material covered earlier.
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A distant cousin to Ted Roosevelt Jr., Norman D. Cota's friendship with him would grow during The North African Campaign, when Cota served as Chief of Staff of The 1st. Division, under him and Division Commander, Major Gen.
1829:"Other potential candidates included ....Theodore Roosevelt, Jr." There was no citation on him being a potential candidate in that article and therefore that statement should be in his article on the basis of consistency.
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That contradicts information in the article about Quentin, which agrees with the edit summary quoted above that he was killed in WW-I, and which also asserts that Quentin was Ted's brother -- not his son. I've placed a
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I don't know much about TR; but from what I've read in other articles and heard from common stereotypes he was quite a hunstman yes? Does that not deserve a mention? (Even if it is rather barbaric :P)
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Ted had a son named Quentin (who was Quentin II) as well as a brother named Quentin. Anything WWII-related mentioning the name "Quentin Roosevelt" refers to Ted's son since Quentin I died in WWI.
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cousins" as well. If politics played a part in the giving of the MOH to Ted, perhaps not to drag Norm (as a Roosevelt cousin) and extending the political rift outside the inner Roosevelt circle?
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The WWII section contained a well established myth that he was the Assistant Division commander, the online OOB lists Brig. Gen. Henry A. Barber in this role from 28 January - 4 July ()
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confirmation/refutation would be welcome. My understanding comes only from the film "The Longest Day", which is based on first-hand accounts but obviously cannot be wholly trusted.--
1231:'s means of campaigning displeasing but also the fact the two of them had the same name and that voters would think that his wife was campaigning against him. 10:58 2 May 2006 (UTC)
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Ted Jr's spouse's full name was "Eleanor Butler Alexander-Roosevelt". Well... I guess it might have been annoying for her association with FDR's "Eleanor Roosevelt-Roosevelt"?
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I've edited the article to somewhat clarify the present uncertainty here about the place of burial. Possibly someone more knowledgeable than I will clarify this further. --
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He was the first soldier off the landing craft on landed with Company E, 2nd Battalion, 8th US Army Regiment, permission to land with one of the first waves of troops at
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This leaves the assertion that he was "a soldier's soldier" unsupported; maybe someone who knows the subject will have a better sense for how to address that than I do.
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was still a redlink as of the time I wrote this comment. If someone really wants to argue for moving these articles, a move request can be created at that time.
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This article is almost entirely unsourced. It needs citations throughout. It is also full of POV statements. In other words, it needs a lot of cleaning up. --
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The removal is due to it not being sourced but I would point out that it is consistent to what it is said at the 1936 Republican National Convention article:
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Kermit and Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., became the first foreigners to shoot a panda, on an expedition funded by the Field Museum of Natural History in the 1920s.
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these statements need to be sourced and they need to be expressed in neutral and encyclopaedic language which is "formal, impersonal, and dispassionate" (
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One of the pictures has a caption that says he died less than a month after D-Day. But if he died on July 12 and D-Day was June 6, that is over a month.
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I also removed information about the D-Day landing because the sentence was hopelessly tangled and I couldn't quickly figure out the facts:
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On D-Day, June 6, 1944, the Big Red One (1st Infantry Division) landed at Omaha Beach. Among the leading wave was Capt. Quentin Roosevelt.
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Re Norm Cota - I understand that there has been an organized move to get Gen Cota the recognition he deserves for his actions at D-Day.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I wouldn't brag about shooting a panda for sport. Pandas seem to just want to be left unmolested and to mind their own business.
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His father is Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. and his grandfather is Thoedore Roosevelt, Sr. He has a son name Theodore Roosevelt, IV
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2252:– I am renominating this RM and this time I support this move. I support this move because the first Theodore Roosevelt was
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POV critiques of hunting have no place in the article. Otherwise, you will start irrelevant debates in the comment section.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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to fix confusion. I feel it would be best to let the community decide what article titles are best for these people. I am
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with the 1st. Division. It is the only known occurence at both beaches that both father and son would be involved.
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Archie was Ted's brother -- not his son. I looked around a little for a supporting source, and came up with
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need more documentations. But congratulations to the contributors for getting the big picture right.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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What a pleasant surprise to see you here. So, to clarify, you think that the text I removed
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Correction on who Ted's medal was presented to. It was presented to TR's great-grandson,
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names who do have WP articles -- if so, some clarification about this is needed here.
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was successful. It sounds like he went above and beyond what was expected of him.
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Shouldn't he be theodore roosevelt the third, since his father was the second?
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Did they call his wife Eleanor Roosevelt? What an interesting coincidence! --
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was born, although the general's own son called himself George S. Patton IV.
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against his Democratic incumbent cousin Franklin at the general election"
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That will be Simon's perogative. I am simply supporting his claims. --
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1863:"Change Language: Roosevelts Continued To Serve In WWII And Beyond"
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I took out the company, battalion, and regiment info and reworded.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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https://en.wikipedia.org/1936_Republican_National_Convention
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Oh yeah, and in my opinion, ALL MOH awards are political.
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with several other great grandsons, various cousins and Dr.
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Yes, Ted's wife was called Eleanor Roosevelt. During THE
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buried at site goes to some cemetery in NY (I think).
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This article has been checked against the following
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1254:) 03:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Alfred "Ed Moch" Cota
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