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city were enslaved; this had happened thousands of times before and has happened thousands of times since. Then, to quote from the article: "Surviving cities were permitted to retain at least elements of their traditional system of government and culture. The Romans did not interfere in the locals' private lives and Punic culture, language and religion survived, and is known to modern scholars as "Neo-Punic civilization". The Punic language continued to be spoken in north Africa until the 7th century AD." This is all well cited to scholarly sources. Even the article "The First
Genocide: Carthage, 146 BC" states "It was not a war of racial extermination. The Romans did not massacre the survivors, nor the adult males. Nor was Carthage victim of a Kulturkrieg." I consider the category entirely inappropriate, but have little energy for possible edit wars over the minutiae around every FA I write. If you have, then please feel free to remove it and watchlist the article against reinstatement.
1382:, and Hasdrubal the grandson of Massinissa (captain of Carthage, who was executed by the populace after Gulussa's arrival for his kinship ties to the Numidian kingdom). There is also no mention of the very important general Himilco Phameas, commander of the Carthaginian cavalry who was the main commander during the Battle of Lake Tunis, and of his important capitulation which happened through Gulussa's mediation. Instead, the article says that one of the Numidian commanders and his 2,200 cavalry defected to the Romans, which is false on several points, as Phameas was in no way a Numidian. While the article is well written it lacks some details and is inaccurate in some points. I'd suggest minor infobox improvements (addition of Numidia as a participant, Gulussa of Numidia in the commanders list along with Himilco Phameas), and the addition of the lacking or inaccurate details which i have mentioned above.
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of
Carthage, and to relieve the Roman army which was harassed by Himilco Phameas's raids, after which Gulussa fought along the Roman army. In fact, the peace process itself was started after Himilco Phameas contacted Gulussa at the Roman camp to deliver his messages to the Romans. The direct participation of Numidia itself began after Scipio sent envoys into Numidia to ask for military assistance to counter Himilco's cavalry, although the first envoy had to return as Massinissa was dying. After the return of the first envoy, another was sent and were able to convince Gulussa to participate in the war by sending light cavarly commanded by himself. In fact, the captain of Carthage, Hasdrubal (not Hasdrubal the Boetharch, but another one) who was a grandson of Massinissa was executed by the Carthaginians because of his kinship ties to Gulussa, who was besieging Carthage.
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1378:, and sorry for the late reply, i had a busy week. The article has some issues, and not just regarding the Numidians. First and foremost though, there is no mention of the core Numidian army's participation in the war (the article only mention the defection of some of the Numidian mercenary cavalry in the battle), nor Gulussa's intervention in the war, which led to the defeat of Himilco's cavalry. The article also doesn't make a distinction between
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1575:: That sounds like my feelings when I discovered commas apparently scattered at random across an article. (My school had corporal punishment, and I would probably have received at least a smart swipe with a ruler for "Today, I ate breakfast" or "In 58 BC, Caesar invaded Gaul." Shudder! "Speech defect Gog? Pay attention!")
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It's pretty obvious that
Numidia participated in this war. I mean the whole war started because of Numidia's attacks and the battle of Oroscopa. During the first year of the war, Numidia participated through limited combat, but by mid 148 BC a large Numidian army was sent to participate in the Siege
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Writing as the author of 87% of the article and the editor who took it through FAC, there was no genocide during the Third Punic War. Either as we understand it now nor as it was understood then. There was a protracted military operation, at the end of which the survivors of the assault on a single
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Firstly, sources for FAs need to be high quality as well as reliable. So can I point that Smith definitely does not meet this criterion, Venning IMO doesn't (other than the introduction), Grainger is borderline - I would be loath to include something on his sole authority, Hoyos - as a professor of
1398:
My turn to apologise for my delayed response. The consensus for this article was nailed down in an unusually gruelling FAC. Which is not, of course, not to say that there is not room for improvement. You bring up a lot of points above, so I am going to pick and choose a handful to address first and
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and thanks for bringing this up on the talk page. I am, of course, aware of most of this. As you say, the
Numidians crop up several times during the war. And so are mentioned several times in the article. Do you have any specific suggestions for additions/deletions/changes to the information given
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Secondly, this article is written in summary style. Just because we have a source for something is not a sufficient reason for including it. This is the reason for the exclusion of several of the issues you raise above. While this is subject to discussion, and in some cases may be a subjective
1464:“The campaign ended in disaster at the Battle of Oroscopa and the army surrendered; many Carthaginians were subsequently massacred by the Numidians.” (Run-on/contains 3 independent clauses. Add comma after “Oroscopa” and split sentence into 2 at semicolon)
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Thirdly, this article is the summary of a lot of activity over several years and currently has six sub-articles. Frequently the appropriate place for detail is one of these. Or, possibly, a new sub-article - I created
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Hasdrubal - "He was taken to Rome and displayed during Scipio's triumph, but later allowed to live in peace in Italy." - quoting Mommsen - whereas this article states his fate is/was unknown.
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Is there a source for
Carthaginian casualties? Not just for the siege of Carthage, but for the entirety of the Third Punic War? That would be a more suitable fit for this article than an unsourced number.
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To business. Which specific mention of
Hasdrubal the Boetharch in this article.should actually refer to Hasdrubal the grandson of Massinissa and what is your source for each of these.
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don't like it I can revert it and we can discuss it here. Usually I am fairly relaxed about phraseology and try not to be precious just because a form of words was the one I wrote.
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Okay, I've now removed it, as entirely unsourced. Will keep an eye on this article and have removed it from the list (we'll see if I get reverted...) –
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between Rome and
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between Rome and
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This article is currently in the category "Genocides in Africa". Presumably, this characterization stems from
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Fourthly, I am - honestly - entirely open to additions or clarifications; bearing in mind the points above.
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If you are ok with it, can we thrash out these two points before moving on to your others? Thanks.
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They aren't technically serial commas, but you're still right. Can I break up the run-on though?
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judgement, the FAC consensus establishes a high bar for this being the established version.
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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Rome, Parthia & India: The
Violent Emergence of a New World Order, 150–140 BC
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two years ago to avoid overloading this article on how and why the war started.
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we can work through the rest; possibly laying down some ground rules as we go.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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What is your source for "the core Numidian army's participation in the war"?
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Source: Miles, Richard (2011). Carthage Must be Destroyed. London: Penguin.
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A history of the world from the earliest records to the present time
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Just as an aside, last month I had the following exchange at a FAC:
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classics and ancient history - definitely does meet the criteria.
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about their role? (In passing, you might also like to look over
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Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
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645:(c. 700 BC – c. 500 AD)
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1530:@Gog the Mild
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404:Did you know?
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1635:Gog the Mild
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1605:this article
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277:please do so
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243:please do so
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19:This is the
1386:Whatever748
1353:Whatever748
1232:Whatever748
1035:Long enough
148:free images
31:not a forum
1674:Categories
1457:Background
1245:References
1185:Casualties
1091:plagiarism
1024:New enough
965:, pp. 3–5.
450:column on
408:column on
263:Punic Wars
234:identified
1534:Amthisguy
1498:Amthisguy
1492:Aftermath
1176:(discuss)
804:Phoenicia
759:Phoenicia
702:talk page
539:Classical
499:is rated
440:Main Page
398:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1567:Reviewer
1171:Hawkeye7
1154:: Done.
1085:Free of
1014:General:
974:Reviewed
908:promoted
501:FA-class
380:Promoted
361:Promoted
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1160:Overall
1075:Neutral
1054:Policy:
932:Comment
831:on the
734:on the
442:in the
400:in the
324:Process
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1657:(talk)
1621:(talk)
1556:really
1481:147 BC
1473:149 BC
1374:Hello
1093:, and
507:scale.
454:, and
346:Listed
327:Result
265:series
126:Google
1652:Aza24
1616:Aza24
1124:Cited
1114:Hook:
488:This
227:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1639:talk
1581:talk
1538:talk
1521:talk
1502:talk
1435:talk
1390:talk
1366:talk
1317:ISBN
1291:ISBN
1265:ISBN
1236:talk
1216:talk
1196:talk
992:talk
960:ISBN
936:view
916:talk
823:High
726:High
321:Date
267:, a
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1351:Hi
1152:QPQ
934:or
910:by
893:or
176:TWL
1676::
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1573:Me
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392:A
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172:·
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158:·
151:·
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128:(
58:.
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