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including Arab countries that participated in wars), while usually placing the blame on Israel, even when that's hardly possible. Also they try to depress
Israeli society by claiming that "everything is wrong". That's why Haaretz is not very popular in Israel. It has a lot to do with political positions instead of "natural justice". As for "liberal Zionists".... the Labour Party could be considered "liberal Zionist", not Haaretz (maybe "potz-Zionist"). In any case, I would like to find a "liberal" newspaper like that among Palestinians or in any Arab and Muslim country, although probably those journalists would be hanged and burned publicly for high treason. I guess the word "self-criticism" doesn't exist in some places (some people would tell you the Arabs don't have an inferiority complex to think about the enemy's wellbeing like so many Jews. In some respects the Arabs are more clever than the Israelis... I just gave a complement to Haaretz's friends!).--
1985:. The picture is appropriate, but even if what you are saying is correct, it doesn't mean it isn't an accurate representation of the danger faced by Israeli children during the war. In addition, in this case the casualties don't reflect the (lack of) danger for Israeli civilians during the conflict, since Israel has effective mechanisms to minimize its own casualties (sirens, shelters, Iron Dome, etc), which doesn't mean that Israelis weren't threatened by Palestinian rockets (besides, those rockets affected the entire country, despite causing few casualties). I haven't seen many photos in commons of Israeli children in flight, perhaps you could propose one (maybe
2369:, and I do see anyone removing that stuff mechanically, as editors do Mondoweiss, which regularly runs good solid traditional investigative journalism. One should challenge the use of Mondoweiss for controversial claims, but challenging it for the names of children killed, is silly. Other articles do mention those names, but a reporter who interviews the family of the deceased, and tells their story, and is published on a website not known to be anti-Semitic, hysterical or known to invent fantasies out of whole cloth (I find numerous articles in our RS slightly 'hysterical') is by commonsense perfectly acceptable.
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evidence that they did anything especially for the photo, therefore it is not posed. The photo was not taken in a war zone, it was taken at an entrance to a residential neighbourhood. Their location was given as
Rehovot, which means they had about a minute warning time and that the danger they were in was quite low. The title "soldiers defending a child with their bodies against danger" is incorrect, it should be "soldiers calming a child frightened by the sirens". Me finding the spot where the event probably happened (on google street view, not actually taking a photo) is pure OR and of course can't be used.
1703:, is continually adding incorrect information to the article, I believe in good faith, however it is all unverified. I have reversed it several times because the anonymous IP address is not included in the IRR, however this is a big issue. They are reporting rocket attacks when there was what appears to be a siren false alarm. They are also adding information not pertaining to the conflict. Additionally they are stating the Egypt is opening the Israel-Gaza border, and removing the part that mentions the removal of the blockade. I am sure these are in good faith, however there are many issues with it. -
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protecting children, that is not the point. Several editors were satisfied neither by the caption nor the photo, one of many, the only one of which we don't know if it was taken during a siren, or after the siren stopped (a mother walking up to soldiers and calmly taking a snap suggests the alert had stopped. It is not 'technically correct' to stand about, as a parent, while an alert to seek shelter against a threat, and take a photo, unduly exposing oneself to risk, for which quite specific instructions are given. We know
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than a dozen, see ), but it is also true that the killing of the three young
Israeli Jews took place outside of Gaza, as well as the killing of the two Palestinian teenagers the previous May 15. So, unless you wish to claim that also the killing of the three young Israeli Jews is unrelated to the "operation", also the jailings and killings of Palestinians in all the occupied territories are related. As for the murder of
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Monitor, Camera, HonestReporting and others are not reliable to state unattributed facts in a serious encyclopedia. If you start to back up information with organizations like
Mondoweiss, I'll start to use their counterpart pro-Israel sources to write things you won't enjoy so much. It's a matter of reciprocity, NPOV and balance. As far as reliability goes, political organizations are not the same than newspapers.--
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is a particularly egregious form of POV censorship because the text mentions that rocket firing stopped during the world cup broadcast that night (this you don't challenge). and when I added the missing fact that Israel continued to fire missiles, killing 9 civilians in one case, you expunge it. Thus
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The word "permission" means that they were aware of the photo being taken and gave their consent. According to
Israeli penal code it is forbidden to take pictures of soldiers since it can be considered espionage, so she was technically correct (as well as polite) in asking for permission. There is no
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For the few who will wade through its 183 pages, the report makes for harrowing reading. It devotes ample space and deference to
Israelis suffering from rocket attacks, but its eyewitness accounts of the scenes of carnage in Gaza in the wake of Israel air force bombings in which entire families were
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Citation for reliable sources is missing for the paragraph: The IDF also killed a 7-month-old baby boy, Baby Ali Deif. He was killed by an air strike on his family home that also killed his 3-year-old sister, and his 27 year old mother - Widad, Mohammed Deif's second wife - and other members of the
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The pictures give a very biased and inaccurate impression as they depict only the aftermath of the destruction of homes in Israel , while no photos were shown of what happened to homes in Gaza. There are so many pictures online of destroyed homes in Gaza during this war , yet none were shown in the
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No need to apologize, but
Haaretz is not 'pro-Arab'. As to pro-Palestinian, as a liberal newspaper it subscribes to the principles of natural justice, and equality, and in this sense, it takes more care than most Israeli newspapers to cover both sides. Most of its contributors are liberal Zionists.
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Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are known reliable sources (they don't lie), at least more reliable than Arab newspapers that you cite all the time like Ma'an News, Haaretz and Al
Jazeera. Both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli NGOs like Mondoweiss, +972 magazine, Electronic Intifada, StandWithUs,
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Last summer, the overwhelming majority of
Israelis were spared the sights and sounds of the carnage in Gaza: Israeli media refrained from covering the suffering of Gazans while politicians and pundits maintained that it was unpatriotic to even discuss. The hardships and ordeals of Israelis cowering
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must remain in the article to add some balance. In fact, I don't understand why it was removed in the first place. I don't see a clear consensus for this. But if the picture of the
Israeli kid must be dismissed for some strange reason, at least one of those two pictures showing Palestinian children
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The word 'permission' told by the mother, means it was posed.It may have been posed some minutes later, but that still means it is a reconstruction. It was not a photo taken on the wing. Ask any accomplished photo analyst here. That is not a picture of an ongoing action under panic, stress. It is
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I found several descriptions of how the photo was taken. According to the sources a family was in their car while the alarms went off. The child left the car before the mother and ran outside. By the time she caught up with him she saw a couple of reserve soldiers hugging him and calming him down.
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This doesn't belong to our discussion, but I wouldn't say that Haaretz "covers both sides" (at least equally). You can ask anyone in Israel. They will tell you Haaretz always tries to find pretexts to justify Palestinian actions, leaders and organizations (as well as enemies of Israel in general,
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There already has been a long discussion over the photo of the child and soldiers. It was agreed to keep another picture where children (and adults) were running to a bomb shelter in Ashkelon. It is far more typical of the situation in Israel. The aim of pictures is to illustrate the accompanying
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all those events took place between those dates. It is true that the source I referred to indicates that at least 6 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank and not in Gaza (thank you for pointing this out, it should also be added however that the airstrikes on Gaza killed three and wounded more
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and many others did cover much of that detail, fearlessly. Shalev's point has been repeated by numerous Israeli journalists who at the time protested the blanketing out of balanced coverage. Objections to Mondoweiss are, contextually, objections to its coverage of what is not reported in Israeli
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What Shalev is openly admitting is what every reader who does not limit himself to the Israeli mainstream press knew all along. Huge amounts of print about Israeli suffering, day in day out, and a few statistics about the other side. Shalev is saying the mainstream Israeli media (as opposed to
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First of all, anyone is free to add notable content that is within the scope of the article. Secondly, it is advancing a particular POV to use one side's operation name as the title, especially when the operation's name is deliberately worded to advance a POV, in this case that the operation is
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I know that particular event was widely covered by mainstream media and reliable sources. I was making a clear point: Mondoweiss is not a reliable source and can't be used to state facts in a serious encyclopedia. It only can be used for attributed opinions of Mondoweiss (secondary sources are
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The mother admits that she asked permission to take a photo. Is there any example in history of a photographer in a war zone, during bombardments, calming asking: 'Heyt! Can can I take a snap of you soldiers still hunkered down in fear and protective care, while I'm standing away from a wall,
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article does need work to remove content that is not within the scope of the article and is more fitting for the timeline article. However, only days 16, 17, and 18 have this problem. This is not enough to warrant a merger. The rest of the List of Israeli strikes and Palestinian casualties in
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Such considerations are beside the point. It is commonsense that if you see something happening, and walk up and ask permission to take a photo, assent is given, and you then carefully take the snap, that this is a posed photo after the event, recreating it. I have no problem with soldiers
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You appear to have made a blind revert. You challenge the use of Mondoweiss, as is your right. You have no right however to excise in the same edit a datum not sourced to Mondoweiss, consisting of text and a link to another wiki page where the facts are fully documented. I refer to:
1400:) should keep that name. This specific page deals only with the timeline of the operation, from the day it began till the (so far) last day. There is more than what's currently on this page in '2014 Israel-Gaza conflict' - at very least it could include kidnapping of 3 teenagers and
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Your argumentation is false, because that picture is posed. The mother said that she asked the soldiers at the time if she could take a snap. It was taken after the incident (mothers don't stand round asking soldiers to retake a photo if their child is still under
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I am not referring to your explanation on the talk page, just the edit on the article page. Removing an undisputed fact just because you don't like the reference is not good. Just fix the problem, if you can. Add a "better source" needed tag if you must.
2103:“Everyone were hiding in cover, it was very stressful while I struggled with the car door, and when he ran for cover. I suddenly saw two home front command soldiers embracing him, it was simply amazing, and I asked them for permission to photo the moment
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She takes the photo (presumably the siren is blaring. They are crouched there, continuing to keep the position. The mother stands in front of them, courageously indifferent to the imminent possibility a mortar may hit her or the child or all
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Let's do an analysis of the, from memory, 14 photos on the page, as we did at the 2014 Gaza war. Then we can see the issue in context. In the meantime, I've seen many photos of Israeli children in flight, so propose one of
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Read the archives for the period at the article page 2014 Gaza War and the argument also on my page. Articles on how it was taken appeared in the press, and are cited there. It's been verified how it was taken, in
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1760:"air strikes on Gaza in which at least 6 Palestinians were killed" is a gross misrepresentation of the source - the statement is that airstrikes killed "at least" 6 in Gaza while the source talks about
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from which the still was excerpted. Needless to say, one does not put such material in (which is abundant), and one expects, in a war of images, that judgement and discretion be used by all concerned.
2506:. The fact that some people were killed while watching a football match was widely reported. If you don't like the Mondoweiss reference, just Google for another one and add it instead. I found this
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Assuming you have so much information on the Internet about that particular incident... why do you need to cite an extremely partisan unreliable source like Mondoweiss to back up those claims?--
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Operation Protective Edge article is a detailed casualties/IAF strikes list and is clearly distinct from this article. Additionally, both articles are of the length where Knowledge (XXG)'s
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merger .I don't think both articles handle the same subject. One is a detailed causalities/IAF strikes list, the other is a timeline of main events/developments of the conflict. --
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maimed, the falsity by omission of the text is sustained. Editing ethics requires that it be restored, as having absolutely nothing to do with the contention in your edit summary.
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Talking of WP:OR, WarKoSign you took the trouble to get two independent photos of the site you assumed was where it was taken. Personal research, openly admitted on the talk page.
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Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
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that we must have an injured Israeli child for every injured Palestinian child, considering that there were many more children killed and wounded on the Palestinian side. See
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this article is neutral and covers an over view of both sides. The other article is one sided and also has been neglected for days on end. Definitely not worthy of a merger -
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2204:'she was technically correct (as well as polite) in asking for permission. There is no evidence that they did anything especially for the photo, therefore it is not posed.'
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in the West Bank (and says nothing about airstrikes). OBK has a dedicated article and is already covered in some detail in the main article's background section. Murder of
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this section into the main article. This way, any updates which are sufficiently important can be included here and will automatically be reflected in the main article.
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I don't know where did you get that information about the "posed" allegation. Maybe it's true, maybe not. However, bare in mind that Knowledge (XXG) is interested in
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That the soldiers posed for it is evident from the picture, and the mother's testimony. We do not do posed photos passing off as real-life events caught on the wing.
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mainstream sources, not objections to its reliability. The rule appears to be:'since the mainstream press doesn't pick up the Palestinian story, let's insist that
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from rocket attacks, undeniable in and of themselves, were magnified tenfold while the misery of Gaza was not only downplayed but also depicted as well deserved
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2345:)whose English editions we rely on failed lamentably to report what the American Jewish press (as opposed to the mainstream wasp press)dutifully covered:
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I will ignore the "meta" discussion of whether Haaretz is pro-Arab or liberal Zionist or whatever. The main point here is that you should follow
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http://web.archive.org/web/20140728090257/http://www.chron.com/news/politics/article/Kerry-returns-to-Mideast-to-push-for-cease-fire-5634687.php
1749:"they took place between May and July 8 2014". Please point WHAT took place on these dates, how it's relevant to the article and why is it more
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be used to exclude any reasonably good sources that do pick up these things, thus ensuring that the 'proper spin' gets the priority we owe it.
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2306:. We used them as RS, yet they are extremely partisan. I read this reflection last night, from a middle-of-the road journalist writing for
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I've no objection at all to a photo representing an Israeli child in danger. Find one, but not one that is not indicative of a posed picture.
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1795:, it is certainly covered elsewhere, as is everything else you mention, including the killing of the three Israeli Jews the previous June.
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as above. This is also just a continuation of the same push to move to Protective Edge. It's getting boring, and will soon get tendentious.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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in the main article. I will leave it like this for a day or two, to ensure that there is consensus that this is OK. My plan is to
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No one said Israeli citizens weren't threatened. They have shelters even for major wars. The whole world knows that, even Hamas.
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Because I'm a fucking dullard with increasingly decreased powers of concentration. I've moved it to the place you suggested.
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Undid revision 667966365 by Nishidani (talk) No, you need a reliable source to confirm this interview. Mondoweiss is not RS
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If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!
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should be mentioned/linked to, but it has to be in more neutral terms than "jailing of hundreds of Palestinians".
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It's late here, but I'll look around, and I hope other editors can scour for photos, which is not my strongpoint.
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The statement in question says "The operation was also preceded by the jailing of hundreds of Palestinians". You
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to be taken as meaning parity in representation of the sides' grievances, or due representation of reality?
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wiped out will disturb even the most ardent justifier of Israeli actions. They are, in a word, atrocious.
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She asked for their permission to take a photo, and took it. There was never any mention of posing.
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http://www.vagazette.com/news/sns-rt-us-palestinians-israel-infiltration-20140728,0,6706630.story
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as they were watching the Argentine-Netherlands semi-final match in a beach café in Khan Younis
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I have added an "Overview" section. The section currently consists of the text of the section
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http://web.archive.org/web/20140804003618/http://www.startribune.com:80/world/269559871.html
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Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel are known reliable sources (they don't lie), at least
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/israel-pulling-out-of-gaza-ahead-of-truce/27310898
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p.s. the photo you propose would be excellent. Let's case around further in any case.
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The father takes one child and leaves his wife in the car with the other child, Yair
1959:, there is also the fact that 1 Israeli child died, and 533 Gazan children died. Is
1273:. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
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http://www.wnem.com/story/25961162/israeli-military-masses-troops-along-gaza-border
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http://www.islandpacket.com/2014/08/19/3265132/israel-rockets-fired-from-gaza.html
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880:, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of the
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There are currently in the article two pictures of injured Palestinian children (
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http://www.click2houston.com/news/israeli-cabinet-to-consider-ceasefire/26957062
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Don't worry about it. I would have reverted him also it's just you were faster.
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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran
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http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/30/373427/three-more-israeli-soldiers-die/
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List of Israeli strikes and Palestinian casualties in Operation Protective Edge
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List of Israeli strikes and Palestinian casualties in Operation Protective Edge
3109:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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household. But the strike did not kill the intended target, Mohammed Deif.
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http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/657369-gaza-on-knife-edge--ban-ki-moon.html
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http://www.local10.com/news/ceasefire-between-hamas-israel-starts/27159652
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2330:'UN report on Gaza will further embed Israelis in their isolated bunker,'
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http://www.bnd.com/2014/08/13/3347722/ap-video-journalist-killed-in.html
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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She asks permission from the soldiers to take a photo, which they give.
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preferable though), whenever that's relevant (if ever). That's all.--
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There is an ongoing debate whether the parent page (currently titled
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Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
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http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-07/16/c_133486297.htm
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the
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That is a deceptive edit summary. Removing at the same time:
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http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2014/07/26/21834271.html
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stated, both articles do not handle the same subject. The
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I have just added archive links to 22 external links on
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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exposed to the danger, just for the family's phot album?
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is timeline, the info should be merged into the section
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge (XXG)
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is an Arab newspaper, you shouldn't be editing here.
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in the timeline article than many other events in the
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to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Start-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
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The parents are stop their car during a siren alert.
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This article has been checked against the following
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Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
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1911:Picture of a 4-year-old boy during a rocket attack
1580:List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2014
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325:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1815:lead to Operation Protective Edge ? I agree that
2260:An Israel missile killed 9 youths and wounded 15
57:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2876:http://www.startribune.com/world/269559871.html
1871:Why did you add the statistics here and not in
640:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Israel
3099:This message was posted before February 2018.
2985:This message was posted before February 2018.
2634:This message was posted before February 2018.
2117:The mother is stuck inside with a jammed door.
2114:The child manages to get out of the car alone.
1811:Do you have sources saying that the murder of
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908:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars
18:Talk:Timeline of the 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict
2416:Evidently if you labour under the impression
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2557:Ok, you are right. I recognize my mistake.--
2457:, which, in any case, is a meaningless term.
1654:2014_Israel–Gaza_conflict#Operation_timeline
1627:2014 Israel–Gaza conflict#Operation timeline
1547:recommends an article split, not a merger.--
1384:– This is clearly what this page deals with
994:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history
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419:the list by category
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2434:I'm sorry. I meant
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1860:Statistical section
1813:Mohammed Abu Khdeir
1793:Mohammed Abu Khdeir
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119:Article policies
40:
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3286:
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3269:
3215:
3211:
3200:
3194:
3174:
3159:
3154:
3122:
3115:have permission
3105:
3073:this simple FaQ
3058:
3048:
3043:
3008:
3001:have permission
2991:
2975:
2729:
2721:
2707:
2697:
2692:
2657:
2650:have permission
2640:
2601:
2593:
2579:
2404:Arab newspapers
2351:Tablet magazine
2242:
1913:
1864:
1862:
1857:
1856:
1843:
1842:
1838:
1783:
1738:
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1697:
1650:
1619:
1602:
1498:
1490:
1477:
1379:
1347:
1337:
1283:
1265:, any expected
1222:
1202:, any expected
1195:
1113:
1087:
1082:
1076:
1071:
1065:
1060:
1054:
1049:
1043:
1038:
999:
996:
993:
990:
989:
953:
925:
922:
919:
916:
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891:
885:
813:
810:
807:
804:
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796:list of members
765:
760:
758:
738:
707:
692:David Bar-Hayim
500:Rami Kleinstein
484:Ayala Procaccia
436:Participate in
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310:
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222:
145:
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85:
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3204:
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3149:
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3094:
3093:
3087:
3079:Added archive
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3054:
3041:
3035:
3034:
3027:
2960:
2959:
2951:Added archive
2949:
2941:Added archive
2939:
2930:Added archive
2928:
2920:Added archive
2918:
2910:Added archive
2908:
2900:Added archive
2898:
2890:Added archive
2888:
2880:Added archive
2878:
2870:Added archive
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2860:Added archive
2858:
2850:Added archive
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2840:Added archive
2838:
2830:Added archive
2828:
2820:Added archive
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2810:Added archive
2808:
2800:Added archive
2798:
2790:Added archive
2788:
2780:Added archive
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2770:Added archive
2768:
2760:Added archive
2758:
2750:Added archive
2748:
2740:Added archive
2706:
2703:
2690:
2684:
2683:
2676:
2621:
2620:
2612:Added archive
2578:
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2335:22 June 2015.
2319:
2311:
2304:Jerusalem Post
2241:
2239:User:Averysoda
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2081:
2063:
2011:
2008:
2005:
2001:
1964:
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1946:
1912:
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1906:
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1797:yellow_snow_62
1735:
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1696:
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1691:
1649:
1646:
1618:
1615:
1614:
1613:
1545:size guideline
1497:
1491:
1489:
1488:
1474:requested move
1468:
1467:
1466:
1448:
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1425:
1424:
1373:
1359:
1358:
1344:requested move
1338:
1336:
1335:Requested move
1333:
1330:
1329:
1319:now serves to
1303:Material from
1301:
1289:
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1280:
1274:
1255:
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830:Mid-importance
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771:
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754:
742:
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739:Mid‑importance
733:
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682:
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36:
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24:
14:
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3293:parameter to
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3221:
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2343:+972 magazine
2341:outlets like
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1851:. 2014-06-29.
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797:
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521:
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512:Nachum Heiman
509:
508:Zman Tel Aviv
505:
501:
497:
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489:
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147:Find sources:
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134:Verifiability
132:
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107:
105:
102:
100:
96:
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91:
88:
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76:Learn to edit
73:
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65:
64:
61:
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56:
50:
46:
42:
41:
34:
31:
29:
28:
19:
3330:MacAddct1984
3324:
3302:
3294:
3283:edit request
3249:
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3208:edit request
3175:
3153:
3150:
3125:source check
3104:
3098:
3095:
3062:
3059:
3036:
3011:source check
2990:
2984:
2971:
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2963:
2961:
2711:
2708:
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2660:source check
2639:
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1914:
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1759:
1737:
1701:84.108.204.8
1698:
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1597:
1577:
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1531:
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1514:
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1471:
1460:send... over
1456:Peacemaker67
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1341:
1279:noticeboard.
1256:
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1197:
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1166:
1023:
975:
898:-authorized
875:
829:
782:region, the
773:
686:
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657:Israel stubs
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496:Levin Kipnis
476:
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233:WikiProjects
195:
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118:
43:This is the
2978:Sourcecheck
2544:Kingsindian
2512:Kingsindian
2504:WP:PRESERVE
2367:Arutz Sheva
2347:The Forward
2191:Kingsindian
1681:Kingsindian
1662:Kingsindian
1534:merger. As
1484:move review
1354:move review
1064:Structure:
956:Middle East
800:discussions
431:Collaborate
223:Start-class
172:free images
55:not a forum
3342:Categories
3287:|answered=
3253:Left guide
3212:|answered=
3177:article.--
3162:Report bug
2355:Mondoweiss
700:Guy Oseary
492:Edna Arbel
3145:this tool
3138:this tool
3031:this tool
3024:this tool
2680:this tool
2673:this tool
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1269:, or any
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2333:Haaretz
2308:Haaretz
2302:or The
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2183:WP:NPOV
1961:WP:NPOV
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1957:WP:Due
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