1174:. Pasting the images of screenshots into the article gave the article an unprofessional look, stopped the article being editable by anyone except the creator of the screenshots and in the mean-time lowered the previous quality of the article, diluting the content that was already there. Instead of disrupting the quality of the article (in the hope of improving it later), it would instead be better to actively work on a draft version, tweaking experimenting and asking for review ("is it ready yet") on the article Talk: page and then incorporating any comments received.
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594:. I consider Rankine and Talbot to be reliable, because they actually give the curves, but the history given in Kellogg is a bit suspect. Crandall seems pretty good from what I've been able to check. I suppose that when my PhD is published, it will be kosher to cite it as well, but for now I've tried my best to stick to verfiable claims and avoid original research.
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Can anybody corroborate the statement that "It is important to note that superelevation is not the same as the roll angle of the rail (also referred to as cant or camber), which is used to describe the "tilting" of the individual rails instead of the banking of the entire track structure as reflected
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If you guys prefer, I will just start a new page calls euler curve or formulation of euler curve but I don't think it is appropriate. Euler curve is concerning about mathematics. Track transition curve is euler curve. I have not seen some mathematics topics call for so many citations when the writing
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Thank you for some further work in adjusting the material slightly, although more work is required, both in the presentation of the text and providing of sources (references). It is likely that
Knowledge would benefit most from one or two equations and accompanying prose (normal text) explaining the
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With the advent of computers, it is now so easy to use a computer to compute the coordinates of any points along an Euler spiral. The theoretical background of the spiral has been removed from most engineering text book and are no more taught in most universities. I could not find any references and
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I decide how much time I want to spend in editing the article. Knowledge means voluntarily editing work and gets other users involved. I have done my part which I think my formula are accurate. If somebody dissatisfies with the presentation, let him edit the work. The formula presented in my pdf or
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at they time they were undertaken, but that does not mean that they can't be an improvement in the future! With careful editing, tuning and tweaks, the act of including the mathematic origins of the spiral is a very useful thing to do—it will probably take less than 8 pages of proof to do so! So
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The fonts are whatever the
Mediawiki engine choses; it tends to render complicated formulas as PNGs and pass simple equations through as HTML entities. Focusing in on font might be missing the bigger picture; the two previous revisions what were added to the article were a low-resolution JPEG
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Such a problem would not occur if the material was written specifically for
Knowledge, using Knowledge syntax and processes from the start. TeX syntax is incorporated within Knowledge as has been the defacto mathematical equation representation (typesetting system) since the 1980s assuring wide
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I highly object to the term "linear spiral". The correct name for the curve is Euler spiral. The much more common name for the curve is "clothoid". Either of these would be fine, but "linear spiral" sounds like making stuff up. Further, Google search reveals that when the term "linear spiral" is
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Ideally we can have a better WYSIWYG editor for formula so that I can cut and paste TeX code from the particular editor to the sandbox. Otherwise the time spent on editing the formula is just too great. When this is multiplied by the number of editors on
Knowledge, it is very wasteful of the
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The article would ideally give the history of the use and adaptation of these various spiral forms. Doing so would provide a solid illustration of how technological innovation was both necessitated and encouraged by the Age of Rail - a valuable insight into the social impact of rail.
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There are several different types of mathematical spirals available for use, including the clothoid, the cubic parabola and the lemniscate. Of more common use on railways are the
Searles, the Talbot and the AREMA 10-Chord spirals, which are empirical approximations of true spirals.
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I'm guessing that the AREMA reference probably continues on from the quote above to give some further detail about those approximations, their inventors and their history; but it may not. In any case, can anybody provide suitable references to help flesh out this story?
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If you think you can get it up to the level of being fit for inclusion, then I would recommend fixing them to the best of your ability. It is impolite to complain if others attempt to help a requestee with vaguely-specifed complex-formatting but the requestee then
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I owe you guys an apology. Sorry. I assure you not all hard efforts are wasted. I have been keeping to these formula for 10 years and forgotten about the simplification. I just converted some 3 pages of the to 1 page, much of the remaining is still the same.
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entirely. The poor curve has enough names in the literature (I've found Euler spiral, Cornu spiral, clothoid, Railroad
Transition Spiral, Holbrook spiral, Glover's spiral, linarc, lince) - it doesn't need more now. I will change it if I hear no objection.
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I am uncomfortable that the first few lines go straight in to "Euler curves". While these are useful to understand the mathematics, the naive reader who has heard of, but does not yet understand the significance of transition curves will be discouraged.
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The primary reason for not integrating the proposed material into the article as-is is that it is highly unsuitable. In PDF/screenshot-form the text is not editable and in copy-and-paste form it is not presentable! Knowledge is something that is both
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by the elevation difference at the "top of rail" ". This seems a bit strange, considering that "superelevation" actually redirects to - where the distinction is drawn between "Track Cant" (= Superelevation) and "Rail Cant" (≠ Superelevation).
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My main concern is with (a). Although the article mostly discusses Euler spirals, it seems to give the impression that's the only curve used, under varying names. However, consider this quotation (from the AREMA reference in the article):
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to ensure the wikifying has been accurate. The PDF is not editable, it is not a wiki, it is not
Knowledge; only yourself can make any changes to it. Because it is not in the end Knowledge format, it is still very much at a drafting stage
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I think that the questionable point is in essence saying that cant refers only to canting of the individual rails. If you take that out then I think that the rest is informative. I'll take that phrase out. Maybe that will resolve?
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Agree and I am not departing from improving the last version. In fact I did the incremental changes whereas the pdf file is only provided for reference. I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted you guys to start from scratch
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However, with a clean-up (particular style and formatting), further work, trimming and references I do believe it would contribute to the article. In its present form it remains unsuitable, which reflects why the content has been
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Thirdly, I object to you acting as an administrator when you are not one. I have ever included similar formula text in
Knowledge and the formula was later amended by users who prefer TeX. You cannot deprive this right of mine.
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I don't understand why I cannot incorporate the text here and let anybody who does not satisfy with the presentation to get involved with the editing works, instead of letting me to do 100% editing work according to the style?
1997:). We only need to provide the facts, not the working (that is just my hunch, but lets see what a final proposed draft brings). Just the facts are much easier to backup with citations than each step of a complex derivation.
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Come to think about it, you have done a good deal in formating. I did not. What the article lacks is a graphic, i.e. a portion of the Cornu spiral in the first quadrant and begins at the origin. A graph to illustrate:
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where you think it is appropriate. Reference can be added on though I still think that the mathematics is simple! Again, I do not think it is right to deprive other people to have a chance in editing this article.
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Secondly, I have changed the text of the formula so that it is understandable to anybody who has used scientific calculator. What is the point of these formula to a person if he has never used a scientific
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Why
Knowledge is not coming up with a 'WYSIWYG' editior for TeX? Shall we ask an opinion from a third person whether the section needs to be removed? E.g. Michael Hardy who is actually an expert in TeX
668:'s comment of 2008 including the term "linarc", the proverbial lightbulb lit up for me. It's a term I'd read many times years ago but could never get a handle on. If these other terms Raph mentioned:
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and my writing are actually cross verifying, though I shall not quote I have used these formula in my computer program that has been cross-checked with other computer program. I am a civil engineer.
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I'm inclined to delete that paragraph - while the distinction is a significant one, it's already explained better elsewhere and seems a bit peripheral to the subject of transition curves. Views?
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The way that the document had been marked for requesting citation was destructive and had been done with a purpose (intending to delete non TeX-formatted writing). This is akin to vandalism.
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Lastly but importantly, if I have to quote published articles only does it mean I cannot devote my knowledge to
Knowledge? Then how can Knowledge be called the sum of all human knowledge?--
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Sladen, I did not realize you have done further edition on my user page. But some of your edition is wrong when you use partial differentiation symbol instead of differentiation symbol.
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I agree with you that there is a constant for each integral but the fact that the initial conditions are carefully chosen to be zero and thus the constants of integrals are all zero.--
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all refer to the same thing, please let's have the article document them clearly. With references, of course! ;-) Then other Knowledge readers, too, might be enlightened. Thanks!
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information. I would assume that other contributors such as yourself (vandals excepted) are adding and improving material for the same (or similar) reasons—and therefore should be
672:... I've found Euler spiral, Cornu spiral, clothoid, Railroad Transition Spiral, Holbrook spiral, Glover's spiral, linarc, lince ... Raph Levien (talk) 14:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
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To derive Cornu spiral from the formula 1/R = l^2, all I need is perhaps two pages. However, I have changed the extend section to make it more useful for engineering purpose.--
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Thanks! I've done so, citing as many reliable sources as I can get my hands on. For those who want to read more deeply on the Euler spiral, I've put my draft PhD chapter up at
2306:. I hope you will be able to solve all of these issues regardless of on which article you propose the additions; once again, thank you for getting involved with Knowledge. —
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and let anybody who does not satisfy with the presentation to get involved with the editing works, instead of letting me to do 100% editing work according to the style? --
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about doing code-drops and having everyone run around patching them up, then starting from scratch at the next code drop; it is about incremental improvement of
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leading from here to the new, main article. It's definitely more of a mathematical subject, with relevance beyond just rail engineering. Good suggestion. --
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Firstly, it is very simple to verify the mathematics. Any body with a good foundation in calculus will be able to verify it. You may check with Raph Levien.
1373:. You, as the original author are in a much better position to fix any inaccuracies since there are no external references (yet) to confirm its accuracy.
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equations, backed up by references from elsewhere. The paper itself (if suitably reviewed for accuracy) would perhaps be most suitable for inclusion at
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I expect at the end of the day what is needed is less than a page of equations, each of which is backed up by a reference to a reliable published work (
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for equally choosing to donate their own time and effort. Showing appreciation is a great source of encouragement; even if improved material is not
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spent editing time TeX/Wikifying on the draft earlier, much of which was unnecessary as it has now been deleted from the latest drop of your draft.
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just because it's there in the menu. Once again, if you truly would like help in improving the material in a sandbox or drafting page, then add
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screenshot and some raw text that was not syntactically clear. If you would like to force the inline equations to be always renders you can add
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what and where each issue is and I will further attempt to help you fix them (but again, it would be quicker if you tried yourself). —
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is probably now a good place to start hunting for citations, both within the paper and in-turn in the references that Levien has used.
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Newer so-called tangential switches have curved switch-blades, but there is no room for a transition; at least the jolt is reduced.
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One problem with deriving something from scratch ("original research") is that Knowledge is not about obtaining truth directly, but
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Jai: For the moment, please take this unformatted, overly detailed, unsourced and uncited content elsewhere. Please do not use
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I have done all the new changes to the wiki text, except the formula in literally text format. I am still hopeless with TeX. --
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describes how an article should evolve, rather than obliterating previous changes by large code drops. General guidance is at
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are happy with it, let alone asking others to convert vast swathes to Wiki/TeX and then asking for reviews. In particular
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For the same reason, I also believe a simple illustration on how to adopt the theory (not too in-depth) is also useful. --
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User: namespace, meaning that it will not disrupt the existing article unless there is some material ready for adding. —
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Even if the material were being introduced in the appropriate format it is too specialized for a general encyclopedia:
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Regarding praise; I devote time to Knowledge because I believe it is a useful thing to do, expanding a repository of
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format before they can be included into the final article. The PDF is not editable and the screenshots of the PDF
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I believe this is the right page to discuss the matter and I will stop discussing at your user discussion page. --
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Euler spiral is well known geometry. I cannot find reference to these formula but I think many other people can.
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mathematical spiral forms involved: "the clothoid, the cubic parabola and the lemniscate", along with various
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is a technical designation (Mediawiki capability) and is in no way different to any other established editor (
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when I was doing computer programming. I believe this section is useful as a reference for civil engineers.
902:) up to the level of Knowledge. The involvement demonstrated proper formatting by converting sections to TeX
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about providing verifiable material that matches the published/reviewed library of human knowledge. (Which
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Yes please Raph, do dive in and fix it! (Especially given you have a handle on the finite differences!). —
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Euler Integrals and Euler's Spiral--Sometimes called Fresnel Integrals and the Clothoide or Cornu's Spiral.
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Are you representing anybody when you are thanking me? Otherwise why do you thank me for my contribution?
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How many of these are mistakes and how many are people not being able to tell the difference between
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Could I politely request that you remove the material from the main article and make any corrections
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I propose to soften the first few lines with a non-tehcnical sentence, if no-one has any objection?
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I have problem in typing formula. If you wish to amend, please help to convert them to wiki text. --
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I am uploaded new pdf file. Reduce to 5 pages with 2 pages of derivation. Please kindly read. --
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I am sorry that I could not provide any reference material as I derived it entirely by myself.--
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Older turnouts had straight switch-blades, so there was always a jolt entering the curved leg.
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or similar, not infinitesimal terms which you described above. I used the wrong description. --
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I am sorry that I could not provide any reference material as I derived it entirely by myself.
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of the syntax, in the hope that others can extrapolate that and apply it to the rest of the
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Long overdue! Just to start you off, I've restored a simpler version, more in keeping with
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this unsuitable content without regard for the improvements to the draft made by others. —
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In which case the material falls into "Original research" and is unsuitable for Knowledge (
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for experimentation/conversion without disrupting the main article until it is ready. —
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itself is self contained. Please refer to people who know the mathematics or calculus.
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American Mathematical Monthly, Volume 25 (1918), pp. 276 - 282. Raymond Clare Archibald
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to make it easier for you to work on wikifying the material prior to inclusion on the
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to your userpage and myself or another editor will be happy to offer assistance. —
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My article is less than perfection. Ya, it need quotes, it can be found, e.g. the
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For those who have helped in editing the page, the mathematics has been moved to
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railways; but even in this limited context, it appears there are at least three
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continuity would mean a sudden change in centripetal acceleration, leading to a
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What about transition curves, or lack thereof, at turnouts, on the curved leg?
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I am giving up in amending the section. You go with it when you are ready. --
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Howto, vague and uncited statements were tagged (as you, yourself requested
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Kah Jai, you are asking others to review substantially changed content in
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ready, the encourage to try harder will hopefully improve it sufficiently.
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What's wrong with overwhelming quantities? I have done it several time.--
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User talk:Sladen#Please do not remove .22Formulation for Euler spiral.22
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attempt at improvement. Thank you for undertaking it. Some of those "
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622:, congratulations Raph! (When is the full PhD thesis due?... ;-). —
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cover the recommended format and syntax for material on Knowledge.
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Please halt editing for while, I am compiling simplified version. --
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Regarding your third query (only), please be aware that the rôle of
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Formulation of Euler spiral - moved from user Sladen discussion page
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I would encourage any editor to get as many reviews as possible of
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
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Please help to convert it to wiki text instead of deleting it.
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I'd like to be clear about: (a) which curves are actually used
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Welcome to Knowledge. I have copied and pasted the content of
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and the designated equation mark-up language. Knowledge is
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article. Once again, many thanks for getting involved. —
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I think that a new page would be preferable, with just a
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This reference is, of course, discussing common use on
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Don't demolish the house while it's still being built.
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However, if you think quote is necessary, You may put
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Hi! I'm a bit late to the party, but ... When I read
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by carrying on and/or fixing any errors introduced. —
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1874:) 02:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC) --Second correction --
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Continuing discussion on formulation of Euler spiral
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we only need to provide the facts, not the working.
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1184:once again, I (myself, just me) would like to
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1858:However, I cannot do graphic on computer. --
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940:User talk:Sladen#Formulation of Euler spiral
2016:cover processes for making large changes.
1866:) 02:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC) correction --
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2138:Motive on adding the section
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2169:== Please stop vandalism ==
2140:Formulation of Euler spiral
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2044:Knowledge is not a textbook
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1669:{\displaystyle \partial \,}
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691:Formulation of Euler spiral
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604:22:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
582:22:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
567:14:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
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330:Template:WikiProject Trains
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2443:17:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
2390:Choosing an easement curve
1952:already sufficient quality
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545:{\displaystyle r=c\theta }
353:project's importance scale
2384:21:54, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
2365:21:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
1797:the ending circular curve
1691:{\displaystyle \delta \,}
457:. Does that sound right?
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
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2423:approximations to them.
1854:length measurement L, Ls
1845:{\displaystyle \theta s}
1760:{\displaystyle d\theta }
2480:Superelevation and Cant
2164:Readdition of unsourced
1822:{\displaystyle \theta }
1420:overwhelming quantities
1190:track transition curve
552:, which is a different
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333:rail transport articles
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492:{\displaystyle G^{2}}
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559:Raph Levien
518:Terminology
504:Raph Levien
426:. That is,
148:free images
31:not a forum
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2002:WP:LAYOUT
1994:WP:VERIFY
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2066:the fix
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