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1367:, which states the ship has an 11,000 mile cruising radius. Butowsky's sources include an undated brochure of the National Maritime Museum Association. Maybe the issue is what is a "cruising radius"? I would guess that the term means 1/2 of the range, that is to say it is how far out you can go and still get back. Since Butowski reports the 22,000 mile cruising radius, perhaps the museum's own understanding and reporting of the ship's cruising radius/range has been changed/corrected over time. I would be inclined to believe that whatever the museum says now is most likely to be accurate. And yet another way to check on this fact would be to see if its stated range is comparable to that stated for other ships of its class, but i have not checked any.
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define "clean sweep" (her last patrol was uneventful as far as targets are concerned). The article should state or imply that the broom attached to the periscope shear (which signals "clean sweep") is in place to show a decoration popularly affixed to those submarines returning to their home port which had achieved the total destruction of a convoy (a clean sweep). It is a museum, after all, they have license to expand or embellish their display for historical reasons. Pampanito might have returned to port with a broom in the shears after one of her war patrols but certainly not the last one, and the definition of it is wrongly given in this article.
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appear like it means to cover more than just the last fact. I've just seen a different treatment of DANFS material, in an article up for
Featured Article, in which the DANFS source is footnoted at the end of each paragraph in which DANFS material appears. So 30 paragraphs in that article are footnoted. It does not use the DANFS section template, which is a new draft and just being tested here. Would it be excessive/appropriate to remove the DANFS footnote from the section-leading DANFS notice, and add the DANFS footnote to each paragraph? I guess i could try it and we could see.
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a limb to assert the pic is from March, 2003. I wonder because it includes a
Christmas tree. Are Christmas trees attached to ships throughout the year? Or is this likely a picture from December 2002? Hmm now maybe the Christmas tree also has to be explained. Maybe it is just a tree, not a Christmas tree, put up for some other purpose. Anyhow, I think that some statement from the museum is really needed to explain the broom. The broom relates to the entire career of the ship, or to its 4th tour, or to what?
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1082:, by the way, and it seems not to be as obvious an improvement as I thought, or at least not to have obvious applications elsewhere. However, in this article, I think that its use works to calibrate readers' expectations appropriately about the authorship of the wording in the article. And applying it to just one section should help clarify for readers and subsequent editors that the statements outside that section are not supported by the DANFS text, and need to be evaluated on their own merits.
1488:-class is 11,000 nautical miles at 10 knots. Elsewhere in the book he equates surface endurance to cruising radius. Therefore the above figure from Butowsky is completely contradicted by Friedman. Friedman reports that the test depth is 400 ft. Test depth and operating depth are synonymous; you may be thinking of crush/collapse depth, which is deeper. I am also not inclined to believe that the museum's web site is more accurate than Friedman, which is a serious academic source.
1161:. It seems to be an educational and/or entertaining point that the museum is making, that this ship is entitled to post a broom, and I agree it is interesting and thus I think we could/should cover it. It would be nice to have a quote or source from the museum about it, to write about it. But a photo making it clear that a broom was posted, on some recent date, is enough of an anchor to use in writing something short about it. Thanks for watching and adding!
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this article to advise the reader which material is paraphrased from the DANFS source. Simply removing the section template and slapping on the generic DANFS template here loses that identification. By the discussion there, I understand that
Bellhalla and others do not feel that there is a general problem with DANFS referencing quality, and generally do not like any suggestions to the contrary. However, stomping out the use of this DANFS section here seems
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out? I would prefer to restore the section template, however. I would like to hear others' comments about the use of the section template in this article. Anyone is free to comment of course, but I would prefer to hear from contributors to this article and not so much to hear from others sailing in just to make a point that is not so much related to this article.
1133:. As for a closeup shot - I don't see right now how that would fit into the current article given the space taken up by infoboxes on the right; inserting it somewhere into the left would give the text a squeezed feeling, which I personally try to avoid for aesthetic reasons. A Commons gallery could be set up to document the sub photographically; I have a
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I agree that
Butowsky's 22,000 cruising radius figure seems to be wrong, as it is contradicted by the museum's current website, too. Which agrees with Friedman, if "cruising radius" means the same as "range". Hmm, by surface endurance I would clearly understand that to mean how far the ship can go.
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to the article. I think it works. The image description says something about it depicting masts and sails, but I don't know what is meant by sails, so I don't include that in the thumb description. And, the image description is not clear on date of photo, just the upload date, so I am going out on
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Hey, it would be great to have a commons category about this ship, which could be linked to from this article. And, I would like to add a close-up of the broom. I will have more material to add to the article in a few weeks, and it will evolve in other ways, so I don't think it is a problem for the
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I find that the DANFS-adapted text is only in one section of this article, and it occurred to me that a section-specific DANFS tag would be appropriate and better. Not finding one, I created a template "DANFSsection" to implement this. This template has now been discussed and criticized in the talk
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obtain the NRHP Inventory/Nomination document and photo set about the ship, which is often a 10-20 page document written by a historian and various editors, which is definitive about the reasons for NRHP/NHL designation and which is a great source for many specific statements throughout the article.
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Towards the end of this article, a "clean sweep" is defined as "all torpedoes shot", which is wrong. What a "clean sweep" means is all targets in a particular convey encountered have been sunk. Also, it is implied that the
Pampanito archived this on her last patrol, which is untrue, no matter how you
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I don't think that was really necessary. As discussed there, the section-specific template happens to fit this article. You and I both noted there that the template's included footnote does not work properly, but that could just be deleted from the template. The section-specific template served
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If the general DANFS template is left in, then each paragraph that is DANFS material (i.e., each paragraph in the one section) needs a footnote to the DANFS text. That would implement what I am now understanding to be current "best practice" in citing DANFS. Bellhalla, do you want to carry that
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The fact sheet of the museum states that the
Operating depth of the ship is 400 feet. That would be consistent with the Test depth of the ship being deeper, say 600 feet, as Butowsky reports. I wonder if Friedman reports only the operating depth, but since the Ships infobox reports Test depth,
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New question, relating to trying to make the DANFS sourcing proper. The DANFS material supports all the material in the one section, I believe, except for the stricken date at the very end which is from another source, Friedman. The footnote for the
Friedman source, appearing at the end, could
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This is a nice article, with a good amount of references. The references could be improved somewhat, say with finding a reference for the ship having appeared in a movie, and not having been out of the Golden Gate for 50 years. But overall it is a good article, with a nice pic, with lots of
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The facts presented concerning the terminology of "ship" and "boat", and of the apt pronunciation of "submariner", even if they may be correct, are entirely irrelevant to the section, page and possibly even website they are in (not to mention completely uncited; consider wiktionary).
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Thanks. I was hoping to develop the article so that it was not necessary to display a general DANFS disclaimer. If the text is merely paraphrased, adapted slightly from the DANFS source, then I agree that a general DANFS disclaimer must stay.
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article to be "picture-heavy" for a while. As I indicated in my edit summary marking the clean sweep statement for "citation needed", I do like the anecdote. I even like the complication about what is the definition, evolving, of what is a
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I'm starting to upload the usable pics I took of the boat when I toured it last
February. It looks like the folks who have taken pics of the sub so far didn't get on it, so this will provide more detailed views of the inside and deck.
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Butowsky includes a footnote to the museum brochure after his tabulation of facts, so it would appear that the museum brochure in particular was his source for all of the limited number of facts that he gives and which I listed above.
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The NRHP Inventory-Nomination for the
Pampanito, prepared by Harry A. Butowsky and dated May 1985, cites somewhat different statistics for the ship than are given in the infobox of the article. The Nomination text reports:
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By cruising radius, I would think that should mean 1/2 the distance it can go. By range, I would think it could mean either how far, or 1/2 as far. Go figure, if they all mean the same thing.
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Do you have the
Friedman reference available, to verify that the infobox statement that the range is 11,000 nautical miles, is what Friedman reports, and see if he reports it as "range" or as "
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For most NHLs, this document is available on-line at the National Park Service, but for this one it has to be requested and sent by postal mail. I will put in the request now.
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to me, to use a term that I have been reading up on recently, and seems not relate to a genuine concern about the referencing quality and appearance of this article.
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If the general DANFS template is left in, then each paragraph that is DANFS material (i.e., each paragraph in the one section) needs a footnote to the DANFS text
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There is no need for every single statement sourced from DANFS to be provided with inline citations. General references are acceptable on Knowledge (XXG).
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Armament: Ten 21" torpedo tubes (6 forward, 4 aft), twenty-four torpedoes (mark 14 and Mark 18s used), one 4" 50mm deck gun, two 20 mm guns.
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There is an image of the pompano's propulsion system in the article, probably be good for the article cheers! (cant code or i would do it)
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Thanks for the inspiration! It transpires that the article was wrong, but you're not entirely right, either. Please see the new article "
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In modern (post-WWII) submarines, that superstructure sticking out of the hull of the sub is called the "sail". For WWII-era subs, like
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It is still there, as it was when I saw the sub for the first time years ago. You can see it if you examine the infobox pic and also in
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information in infoboxes. I'd like to help bring it up to Good Article status. Beforehand, what should be fixed up? What I would do:
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There is a Commons category, which you can see linked to in the external links section. The template for that is {{Commonscat}}.
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someone entered the operating depth into the Ships infobox instead. Can someone check what Friedman says about this item, too?
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The Pampanito article states Pampanito sank Rakuyo Maru, while the Sealion (SS-315) article states she was sunk by Sealion.
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put in specific quotes, where appropriate, from the DANFS source into the article, and remove the general DANFS disclaimer
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used to do it, and they may still, but Google's not pulling up any info. I think it's unusual that a boat as small as
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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otherwise try to use in-line citations (footnotes) to support statements throughout the article
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of pics I took when I recently visited, practically went nuts shooting the thing. --
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factsheet of the Pampanito museum, the National Maritime Museum Association
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Not sure what to make of the difference in the last two items, especially.
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By the way, Butowsky's sources are (i am abbreviating them only slightly):
652:. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the
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B-Class National Register of Historic Places articles of High-importance
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Cruising radius 22,000 miles (vs. range 11,000 nm stated in the infobox)
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We can always reevaluate how the pics work out after further changes.
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Submarine--The Ultimate Naval Weapon--Its Past, Present, and Future
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As time allows, we should incorporate this info into the article.
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Submarines at War--The History of the American Silent Service
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I'm confident that Friedman and Bauer are more accurate.
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Friedman reports that the "Surface endurance" of the
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Test depth: 600 feet (vs. 400 feet stated in infobox)
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The first sentence of the article doesn't make sense
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Silent Victory--The U.S. Submarine War Against Japan
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This article has been checked against the following
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1426:. New York: Stein and Day, 1983.
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63:Learn to edit
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36:USS Pampanito
33:
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1788:— Preceding
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1674:So does the
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1546:DANFSsection
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1305:Beam 27 feet
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220:WikiProjects
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30:This is the
1836:Rakuyo Maru
1525:Removal of
1159:clean sweep
473:Structure:
159:free images
42:not a forum
1858:Categories
1758:TomTheHand
1726:New Jersey
1640:Sleepovers
1624:TomTheHand
1602:, it does
1490:TomTheHand
1347:TomTheHand
1249:TomTheHand
968:➥the Epopt
763:California
753:California
748:U.S. state
698:California
1750:Pampanito
1686:Lexington
1568:WP:POINTY
1552:Bellhalla
1438:Pampanito
1241:Pampanito
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
1790:unsigned
1735:Yorktown
1080:WP:SHIPS
1078:page of
434:criteria
353:Maritime
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1746:(BB-55)
1737:(CV-10)
1728:(BB-62)
1719:(BB-60)
1717:Alabama
1710:(BB-59)
1688:(CV-16)
1680:(BB-35)
1649:(CV-12)
1606:. Per
1578:doncram
1505:doncram
1464:doncram
1390:doncram
1369:doncram
1332:doncram
1186:doncram
1163:doncram
1107:doncram
1084:doncram
1065:doncram
1044:(BB-35)
1025:doncram
935:on the
908:Museums
899:museums
855:Museums
790:on the
323:on the
210:B-class
165:WP refs
153:scholar
1823:Aotoda
1732:, and
1664:Sphere
1659:Broken
1647:Hornet
1283:Sphere
1278:Broken
1218:Sphere
1213:Broken
1146:Sphere
1141:Broken
995:Atlant
216:scale.
137:Google
1678:Texas
1655:. --
1486:Balao
1042:Texas
981:See:
659:Ships
617:Ships
180:JSTOR
141:books
95:Seek
1846:talk
1827:talk
1798:talk
1762:talk
1754:tiny
1684:USS
1682:and
1676:USS
1645:USS
1628:talk
1608:WP:V
1582:talk
1556:talk
1509:talk
1494:talk
1468:talk
1394:talk
1373:talk
1351:talk
1336:talk
1253:talk
1190:talk
1167:talk
1111:talk
1088:talk
1069:talk
1040:USS
1029:talk
642:Ship
315:High
173:FENS
147:news
84:and
1698:004
1693:MBK
1604:NOT
1135:lot
1054:004
1049:MBK
966:."
927:Low
782:Low
750:of
187:TWL
1860::
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1756:.
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1610::
1600:NO
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1548:}}
1544:{{
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222::
183:·
177:·
169:·
162:·
156:·
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139:(
69:.
20:)
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
