Talk:University of Phoenix - Knowledge (XXG)

1358:"In 2012, Apollo Group planned to close 115 campuses. The New York Times reported that "enrollments at the University of Phoenix and in the for-profit sector over all have been declining in the last two years, partly because of growing competition from other online providers, including nonprofit and public universities, and a steady drumroll of negative publicity about the sector’s recruiting abuses, low graduation rates and high default rates ... including many charges that the schools enrolled students who had almost no chance of succeeding, to get their federal student aid." According to an article by Brian Stoffel at the Motley Fool "tens of thousands of students were being recruited for a service that wasn't fit for their personal circumstances – leaving them with little to show for their decision but a boatload of debt." Some critics have referred to Apollo Group and University of Phoenix as criminal enterprises that prey upon veterans, women, people of color, and socially isolated individuals." 1949:“We are pleased that University of Phoenix is going to stop condoning such favoritism toward Mormon employees and the resultant discrimination against non-Mormon employees,” said EEOC Phoenix Regional Attorney Mary Jo O’Neill. “It is the EEOC’s belief that, for many years, the University of Phoenix condoned an environment in which Mormon managers felt free to engage in favoritism toward their Mormon employees, and did so by providing the Mormon employees things such as strong leads on potential students. Given that evaluations are based largely on recruitment numbers, this disproportionate assignment of leads affected a whole host of matters for employees, including compensation, access to tuition waivers, and ability to be promoted.” 1953:

several strong provisions designed to stop further religious discrimination and prevent it from recurring, including: ◾Dissemination of a Zero Tolerance Policy to all employees in the University of Phoenix Online Enrollment Department, stating that the company has zero tolerance for religious discrimination and that any violation of the policy will result in termination; ◾Training for managers and non-managers on the issue of religious discrimination; ◾Creating a system to include in managers’ evaluations an assessment of their compliance with equal employment opportunity laws; and ◾Hiring a Diversity Officer, and the staff necessary, at the University of Phoenix to monitor compliance with the terms of the consent decree.

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reduce commentary on papers he graded -- why would he? He's an administrator. It wasn't his job to grade papers. However, I am a 20-year faculty at UOP, and I have been told quite directly NOT to grade papers 'too much.' I have spoken to other instructors who told me they received the same instructions. I have seen the CMART video -- it exists (or did) and was part of a concerted effort by the University. The fact that UOP declines to show the 'CMART' video is an indication that the university now regards it as embarrassing. And I, and other instructors, DID refer to the initiative and the video that supported it, as KMART grading.

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had to be "neutral" in the sense of making the reader unsure whether this is what sane people would consider a good or bad person. "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts." - It is a seriously contested assertion that there is any merit to the University of Phoenix whatsoever, and so it would be non-neutral of Knowledge (XXG) to present it as a fact. Either state your objections in detail, or the dispute tag is going away.

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Phoenix engaged in a widespread practice of discriminating against non-Mormon employees who worked as enrollment counselors in the University’s Online Division. Enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix are responsible for recruiting students and are largely evaluated based on the number of students they recruit. At present, the University of Phoenix has over 2,000 employees working in online enrollment.

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disciplining non-Mormon employees for conduct for which Mormon employees were not disciplined; (3) promoting lesser-qualified or unqualified Mormon enrollment counselors to management positions while repeatedly denying such promotions to non-Mormon enrollment counselors; and (4) denying tuition waivers to non-Mormon employees for failing to meet registration goals, while granting the waivers to Mormon employees.

1835:] to a video which requires sign in. UOP has no obligation to provide Knowledge (XXG) access to the video, of course, but it would help provide transparency if it were available to us, if for no other reason than to serve as a basis for refuting the information that you requested removed if it is ever added again. Unfortunately, we have no way of confirming your affiliation with UOP, and we need a source that is 833: 808: 772: 1802:

specific to the content, organization, and mechanics of submitted work. This is explicitly stated in the University's Faculty Handbook - a governing document - along with the classroom review tool referenced in this article. Also, while hardly the most significant point, the review tool has never been referred to as "KMART" - formally or colloquially - by anyone internal to the University.

1573: 1493: 997:, of course Phoenix is also fully accredited. For most well known universities, Knowledge (XXG) usually does not list the school's accreditation in the first sentence. That sentence had been in the "organization and administration" section for about a year, but it was recently suggested that it did not belong there. If you have a better idea of where it should go, please let me know. 280: 259: 2750:

likelihood of a sale increasing, titling the 2020's section around the sale makes more sense to me. That being said, the future of titling the 2020's section will definitely depend on a sale actually taking place, instead of the months (technically years, according to that quote!) of speculation. I'm going to go ahead and re-title the timeline with what you've said in mind.

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laws and policies (a handful of institutions explicitly refuse to accept state funding so they don't have to comply with those laws and policies, especially those with extreme political or religious views whose practices would otherwise be unlawful). But they still have their own privately-appointed or -selected governing bodies so they're not public institutions.

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overwhelming consensus in discussing this with peers - all having attended traditional schools - is that faculty members at these institutions rarely provide feedback beyond a score or letter grade. I believe a bias-free approach supports removal of this content. Furthermore, the source cited to support the information found in this excerpt is unavailable.

290: 2690:, as much of the Lawsuit content (while in a prose format) reads as a list. Without the single sentence before the information, we're simply reading a list of the events in the order that they happened, which truthfully, belongs more in History. I've also removed duplicate content from the former "Controversy and criticisms" that was also found in History. 887: 819: 2749:

You appear to be correct! I see a path that may work for now. I think having this pre-2020 instance roll into the section could be okay considering an acquisition would be seen as an important moment for that portion of the timeline. Also, given the increased media attention within the 2020's and the

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Robert Lein, who filed a charge of discrimination with the EEOC that resulted in the lawsuit, said, “I am very pleased with the outcome of this case and I thank the EEOC staff for their work. I am happy to hear that the University of Phoenix is making significant changes to its environment to prevent

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There's been one many times, but faithful UoP students and graduates keep editing it into oblivion with regularity. It has a short shelf life and requires a decent amount of maintenance to keep in existence. Try perusing the article history - there's complete and well-referenced criticism all ready

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The fact that you find reality unpleasant doesn't mean the article isn't neutral. It is sourced, relevant information. If you think there's something important that's being left out, or untrue claims being made, then why don't you say what they are? Just because you clearly don't like it doesn't mean

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The timeline appears to be in error. The University of Phoenix has been transitioning to online courses (and closing campuses and learning sites) for more than a decade. According to the Washington Post, Apollo Global Management has also been trying to sell of the school since 2019 if not earlier.

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This page is a perfect candidate for being protected, I think. Right now, it reads almost like an advertisement for the school, despite the healthy amount of criticism it has and does receive from both traditional schools/teachers, former and current students, and others tasked with monitoring such

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I agree that this doesn't belong in the lead. It seems to fit best in the history section since that is where some of the criticisms and investigations are currently located. (Incidentally, if anyone has the time and the interest, the history section needs to be rewritten. The content is fine but

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A longer answer is that public institutions in the U.S. are those that are directly controlled and governed by the state or federal government. Nearly all private institutions accept some kinds of state funding, including federal financial aid, which means that they must comply with many government

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and we generally use that as the deciding factor (in part, I think, because there are rarely disputes on this topic and everyone agrees with everyone else). The only exceptions in Knowledge (XXG) that I know about are the "state-related" institutions in Pennsylvania which were the subject of a long

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In reference to previous discussions on this talk page, I'm making some changes to the article. Most of it is stylistic, but I've removed a 2016-era graph as it is not going to be updated and holds little relevance to 2022. I've also expanded the History section to include all bits of their history

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Testimony of witnesses in the case revealed that managers in the Online Enrollment Department at the University of Phoenix discriminated against non-Mormon employees, and favored Mormon employees, in several ways, including: (1) providing the Mormon employees better leads on potential students; (2)

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In October 2014, the university instituted a policy directive to instructors advising them not to grade or mark papers in a detailed fashion because too-intense criticism might be demoralizing to students. In a rubric it deemed "CMART" (which some insiders dubbed "KMART"), instructors were to limit

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There is a section, "Governmental lawsuits and investigations", where this sort of thing may belong. It would probably be more useful to explain what the investigation is about precisely. "Issues related to marketing, recruitment, enrollment, financial aid, fraud prevention, and student retention"

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But it's not wikipedia's fault that the University of Phoenix is a worthless institution. And the fact that the lead of the article makes that clear even to you just proves that the article is neutral. It would not be neutral if, to jump right into a Godwin's Law situation here, Adolf Hitler's page

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I understand. There are several pop culture references over the years, including White Collar (2011), John Oliver (2014), the Simpsons (2017), and Family Guy (2020), but I would have to take time dredging them up. The recent SNL sketch, by the way, was mentioned in the NY Times, LA Times, NY Post,

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Note by Jake: I am afraid that Aaron above is wrong. I don't know what the basis for his claims that 'no one' ever did this or said that ... I would accept that he is not aware; however, his ignorance does not mean these things never happened. Perhaps as an administrator, he was never directed to

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First off, I think the graph of enrollment is deceptive. The bottom line should be 0 not 100,000. It also should not be a five-year old graph. We also need to incorporate not just statements of money collected during the pandemic, but much more statements of what the pandemic did to University of

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Not quite. It has an undue weight issued to the section, most likely because of the second paragraph, but when you get into default rates, etc., how is that on point with Admissions and financial aid? This should talk about how admissions and financial aid work. Any controversy should probably go

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The consent decree entered into by the EEOC, the University of Phoenix, and Apollo Group provides monetary relief of $ 1,875,000 for 52 individuals. The amount of relief provided to any individual is based on the nature of the discrimination he or she experienced. The consent decree also contains

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EEOC’s Phoenix District Director Chester Bailey said, “We hope this settlement sends a message to all employers to be vigilant in ensuring a fair and equitable work environment for all employees regardless of their religion. The relief the EEOC obtained will require this large employer to change

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Does the University of Phoenix really have one million alumni? That's one out of every 270 adults in America, and I don't know a single person who went to Phoenix! The source listed is its own website, which I really doubt can be trusted. Does anybody have any idea of how to find out the actual

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I can confirm faculty have never been directed to limit corrections or provide generalized positive comments. Faculty members are required to provide affirmative and corrective feedback (credit deductions must be clearly explained, contrary to the suggestion in this article) as well as feedback

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This page should be protected because of repeated vandalism by self-interested Phoenix affiliates who violate Knowledge (XXG)'s encyclopedic mission to present objective facts from multiple well-documented perspectives. The following paragraph seems to be of particular concern to these vandals:

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Apollo Group and the University of Phoenix are one of the largest employers in the Phoenix metropolitan area. In its lawsuit, filed under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (EEOC v. University of Phoenix, Inc., and Apollo Group, Inc., CV 06-2303-PHX-ROS), the EEOC charged that the University of

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PHOENIX – The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today announced that Federal District Court Judge Mary H. Murguia has entered a consent decree for nearly $ 2 million and significant remedial relief to resolve a class religious discrimination lawsuit against the University of

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I am happy to provide clarification on our feedback requirements. However, I feel neutrality is better served by eliminating this excerpt altogether. In reviewing articles of other universities, I see no mention of feedback delivery mechanisms. In fact, while this is clearly anecdotal, the

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With talk page comments like this, I'm not surprised this article is biased against the institution. You don't know whether or not I "find reality unpleasant" since I've never said anything about my personal views on for-profit colleges, just on this particular Knowledge (XXG) article.

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discriminatory business practices that already have affected potentially hundreds of non-Mormon employees at the University of Phoenix Online.” The EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about the EEOC is available on its web site at

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I oversee several Academic Operations functions within the University of Phoenix. I received a phone call from a faculty member who reported a concern regarding erroneous information found in this article. Specifically, this excerpt found under the Academics sub-heading is false:

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I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because the information in the "admissions and financial aid" section of this article also applies to other for-profit colleges it's unnecessary to include "admissions and financial aid" in the University of Phoenix article?

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There's just too much information in the introduction. It's certainly worth discussing many of the problems the company has now, but it doesn't all need to be in the intro. Grafs 1 and 3 of the intro would be a fine summary. The other stuff can go elsewhere in the article.

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it's clearly non-neutral. The reality of the situation is that it's obvious to every sane person that this is a worthless diploma mill. If you really think you have sources (apart from, you know, itself) that tout its value, by all means, be bold and go ahead and add them.

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What makes the University of Phoenix a private entity if it is part of a publicly traded company and it receives most of its money from the federal government? For the purpose of editing Knowledge (XXG) articles, is there a definition of what a private university is?

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Someone needs to update this article, especially the part on online education. Sources in some cases are more than 10 years old, and in something that involves technology, that's a long time. With so many campuses closing, UoPX is also moving towards being exclusively

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I'm grateful for this discussion, especially because the heated, controversial debate about University of Phoenix has been present since its founding in 1976. I like the controversy section, but feel the controversies are best categorized under the current layout:

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also has some additional language in its article on this topic as part of the university is public (the agricultural school and other units associated with the university's land-grant status) while most of it is private. There has sometimes been a dispute about

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The introduction includes the Huffington Post's claim that UOPX is an "example of for-profit colleges that operate to receive government educational subsidies", but doesn't mention that UOPX is "fully" accredited? Can't hide the elephant in the room!!

1768:"U of Phoenix staff" do not control this talk page, but this is not a forum for general discussion about the subject of the article and this is definitely not Facebook. This page is for improving the article: anything else is off-topic here. 1830:

Thanks for pointing this out on the talk page. I removed the paragraph because it is not confirmed in the linked article, and the linked YouTube video was removed because of copyright claim by Apollo Education Group. The linked article has

1999:, Jonathunder reverted the edit by 701.91.213.37 without writing a reason in the edit summary. I clicked Undo and added the "rv without explanation" in edit summary. If I did something wrong procedure wise, I'd like assistance. Thank you. 1995:. The unregistered user appeared to have deleted some content and added new content. Overall, the edits seemed reasonable, although an explanation of why he/she deleted a few paragraphs would have been helpful. I then noticed that in 1726:

Although, I'm sure this post will soon be deleted by the U of Phoenix staff as well, I posted this message on on my Facebook wall to all of my friends and family as well as anyone else it can reach and now I'm sharing it here.

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I'm sure their definition of "alumni" is loose (ever taken a single class through a corporate partnership? alum!) but I entirely agree with your point about not using them as the only source. Lets at least start by saying "UoP

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restored it. You removed it again. with the odd edit summary "rv unexplained deletion". You didn't revert a deletion. You yourself deleted. It would help if you would explain why you think the information should be deleted.

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Then integrate it into the history section with references that support your argument. A bulleted list of disconnected facts, many of them very limited and of little interest to readers who have no context, is not helpful.

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Looks to me like Michael misread the edit history and was trying to undo the deletion that Jonathunder already undid, and Michael accidentally removed it again. Happens. Just restore the info and all is good.

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The White House College Scorecard seems to be a reputable source for information about graduation rates, graduates' earnings 10 years after leaving the school, and also the cost of the academic programs.

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Considering how frequently articles and op eds about the dropout rate, inflated cost as compared to public univeristies, low job placements, etc, it seems appropriate to add a controversy section.

2686:. Overall, this makes the page read more in chronological order. I've also split the page into specific time-frames. The amount of content being moved to History really borders on necessitating 2495:@ElKevbo Should the section on marketing be removed? I argue that marketing is a key element of the history of the school. It has been an engine for enrollment and a point of legal disputes. 1890:

p.s. You can't verify my identity and employment because I still teach at UOP (it's a decent part-time gig ... beats laying asphalt on a 100-degree summer day), and I don't want to be fired.

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I want to add investigative information from Aaron Glantz (Center for Investigative Reporting) as well as information from USA Today regarding University of Phoenix as a "red flag" school.

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Saying 300 companies does not have any context. The given list of companies includes Fortune 500 companies. The companies would have in-house training programs that have significant content.

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Other editors are removing key legal, financial, and consumer information that I have inserted. All of my sources are credible, including work by investigative reporter Aaron Glantz.

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from the lede. It may belong in the body but we are an encyclopedia, not Consumers Report. If the investigation has a notable impact, then that impact could be added to the lede. --

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Phoenix enrollment. Did it go down? Did it go up? Did it go down, but just on an existing trajectory, or did it see a steeper than usual drop off? The article gives us no clue.

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Also we have thrown in the closing of the Atlanta and Salt Lake locations. We probably should more in detail trace both the growth and closing of in person education locations.

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Then please paste it back in! If not already in the article, I will make sure it finds a nice home. I looked through the history, I'm pretty sure nothing has been removed.

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Then please paste it back in! If not already in the article, I will make sure it finds a nice home. I looked through the history, I'm pretty sure nothing has been removed.

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I have included important legal and consumer information that can be verified by the Center for Investigative Reporting. Muboshgu has deleted this important information.

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for it doesn't "refer to Apollo Group and University of Phoenix as criminal enterprises that prey upon...." It's talking about the entire for-profit education industry.

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The short answer is that we follow the lead of reliable sources in this area, particularly materials published by scholars and experts. The US Department of Education

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a) all the controversies and negative info that appears in several sections be put under the header "Controversies," with appropriate second-level headers; or

2623:. Maybe if we said "The university reports 1 milllion....."? And this says "graduates", but you don't necessarily have to graduate to be listed as alumni. 3013: 2930:

Should we keep the data that the University of Phoenix is self reporting if it is significantly different than what appears in the NCES College Navigator?

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is broad and ambiguous and, frankly, the Department is "investigating" schools, even real ones, all the time. It's unclear what this is about.

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Since almost all University of Phoenix students now receive their education online, would it be correct to add the word "online" to the lede?

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The history section almost seems as a different title for "Controversy". It seems rather strange to put that sort of thing in History.

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By the way, that some instructors at other institutions provide little feedback is hardly justification for poor teaching at UOP.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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How is it possible that so many people are claiming credit for something that, according to Aaron at least, doesn't exist?

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b) if the content of the article is moved around to make it more like a narrative, like you would see in an encyclopedia.

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it's probably a good idea to create a new section discussing these issues, as you're responding to a comment from 2015!

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Controversies sections are deprecated, but that doesn't mean just removing properly sourced negative information. See

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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --

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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --

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I appreciate the candid feedback. I'll be sure to double check in future before clicking Undo. Thanks again, guys.

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This is describing the issue for the for-profit higher education system and there already is an entry for that. --

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removed material that had been around for 5 months. It does not give a meaningful reason to remove the material.

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Here is a person -- Lisa Jean Thompson -- on Linkedin who claims to have WRITTEN the CMART evaluative rubric --

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topics on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/02/college-default-rates-higher-than-grad-rates/2480295/

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are quite short. Perhaps the content within those sections can be moved into other areas in the article.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/arts/television/saturday-night-live-adam-driver-olivia-rodrigo.html

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their corrections on student papers to a very few salient features and a generalized positive comment.

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which makes claims about having a unique governance structure and relation to the state of Delaware.

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U of Phoenix likes to harass, but doesn't tolerate being confronted for their harassment and scamming

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/03/31/university-phoenix-arkansas-deal-draws-scrutiny/

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Even if it were specific to them, "Some critics have referred to..." prompts the question: who?

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Depending on how long the link works, here is the CMART video that Aaron says does not exist:

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http://cironline.org/reports/gi-bill-funds-flow-profit-colleges-fail-state-aid-standards-6477

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/gi-bill-benefitting-profit-colleges-instead-helping-veterans/

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We need much more than one popular press source to support adding a section to an article.

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Without example companies, the claim of 300 companies suggests transfer credit is a joke.

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I just read the lead of this article and it is clearly slanted towards a negative POV. –

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but my recollection is that has been solely about whether it's for-profit or nonprofit.

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https://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/2013/01/what-public-university-what-private-university

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Anon 70.91.213.37 removed a substantial amount of information without giving a reason.

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I think this section is well balanced now and the tag can be removed. Any objections?

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what happened to me and many of my colleagues from happening again in the future.”

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EEOC Settles Suit on Behalf of Class of Enrollment Counselors in Online Division

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UNIVERSITY OF PHOENIX TO PAY $ 1,875,000 FOR RELIGIOUS BIAS AGAINST NON-MORMONS

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Well, that certainly eliminates the need for verifiable, notable sources. /s

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Should University of Phoenix be recognized for its name in popular culture?

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2008 religious discrimination judgment conspicuously missing from Wiki page

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Neutrality - it's a strong accusation that doesn't provide a counterpoint.

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I'd like to start a discussion about reorganizing the article's content.

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http://www.phoenix.edu/about_us/about_university_of_phoenix/history.html

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Feel free to edit what I just did, I agree with all that you said.

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Weasel words - "Some critics" -- Which people specifically said it?

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Knowledge (XXG):Requested articles/Business and economics/Companies

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Can we add "online" to describe University of Phoenix in the lede?

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First, I'm wondering if readers would be better served if either:

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Costs, financial aid, military benefits and loan repayment trends

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it's essentially a list of bullet points without actual bullets.)

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University of Phoenix Numbers are very different than NCIS data

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Phoenix, Inc., and its parent corporation, Apollo Group, Inc.

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on Knowledge (XXG). Please visit the project page to join the

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Marketing is a key element of University of Phoenix's History

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This source is also the university, but published by a RS

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as a fictitious President of the University of Phoenix.

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/ymcfgwue68n9e24/cmart.avi?dl=0

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and brought the article in line with Wiki's MOS as per

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What makes University of Phoenix a private university?

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http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-10-08.cfm

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Here is a link to UOP's general history information:

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http://tamu.academia.edu/JasonThomas/CurriculumVitae

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I hope I have introduced this matter appropriately.

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Such criticism is presented in History to adhere to

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Quality of academics, including accreditation facts

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Removed tag. 1837:reliable by Knowledge (XXG) standards 1753:) 01:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)Invictus_80 873:Template:WikiProject Higher education 587:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Education 452:Help expand stub articles located at 321:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Companies 7: 1125:I move to close the NPOV dispute. -- 838:This article is within the scope of 678:This article is within the scope of 563:This article is within the scope of 401:Category:Unassessed company articles 301:This article is within the scope of 2879:discussion a few years ago and the 993:That claim was made in a column by 244:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 3014:WikiProject United States articles 2136:. A narrative approach is better. 1880:Somebody else -Jason E. Thomas at 1877:Perhaps Aaron should talk to her. 728:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 3019:B-Class Higher education articles 2974:Mid-importance education articles 2910:Thank you for the clarification. 2082:Reorganization of article - ideas 1264:to paste back into the article. 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 2117:Anyone else have ideas on this? 1624: 1571: 1537: 1491: 916: 831: 817: 806: 770: 665: 655: 628: 550: 540: 519: 478:Tag company talk pages with the 367: 288: 278: 257: 226: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 3024:Higher education collaborations 3004:Low-importance Arizona articles 2959:Mid-importance company articles 2317:under the criticisms section.-- 2111:Organization and administration 1983:recent reversions to reversions 1106:I certainly agree with that. – 745:This article has been rated as 607:This article has been rated as 341:This article has been rated as 2984:B-Class United States articles 2979:WikiProject Education articles 2964:WikiProject Companies articles 2774:00:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 2450:on UoP. 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Set the 1514:to reactivate your request. 1502:has been answered. 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566:WikiProject Education 491:requests for comments 482:WikiProject Companies 304:WikiProject Companies 238:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 25:University of Phoenix 1410:Just Danny Weil, of 673:United States portal 105:No original research 2788:Saturday Night Live 2569:One million alumni? 2264:Corinthian Colleges 2168:What do you think? 1959:http://www.eeoc.gov 786:WikiProject Arizona 699:Articles Requested! 2885:Cornell University 2349:Will do, thanks.-- 2170:User:Rrrrevolution 2119:Michael Powerhouse 2064:Michael Powerhouse 2015:Michael Powerhouse 1997:Revision 693351526 1991:, I looked at the 1989:Revision 693594392 891: 864:for useful advice. 764: 593:education articles 240:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 2724:Timeline headings 2551:John Pack Lambert 2537:John Pack Lambert 2423: 2411:comment added by 1979: 1967:comment added by 1912: 1896:comment added by 1674: 1657:comment added by 1598: 1597: 1518: 1517: 1299:comment added by 1230:comment added by 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