Talk:Ulster Scots people - Knowledge (XXG)

3145:

from Scotland to Ireland in the plantations or time period after. I suspect that when these people arrived in Ireland that they referred to themselves as Scottish and had a Scottish culture then eventually as Irish as they assimilated - I imagine this is difficult to comprehend nowadays as the communities for which /Ulster Scots/ are associated is generally Unionist/Loyalist and British. However, only after the partitioning of Ireland and the creation of N.Ireland do you tend to see individuals call themselves British or Ulster Scots. In the 19th century, you will see Protestant organisations referenced as Irish or Ireland. The largest unionist party in Ireland pre-partition was called the 'IRISH Unionists'. If you read any of the Ordnance Survey Memoirs for Ireland, for areas of historical Scottish settlement, you will see the people referred to in relation to their Scottish manner or habits. Their cultural habits may have been different but the people were Irish by nationality and regarded themselves as so. There are countless examples of this. This page appears to try to almost paint Ulster Scots as a polar opposite to Irish, like it's a nationality. It isn't. The people were culturally separate. However, given Scottish traditions (including the Lowlands) there is likely some overlap with Irish traditions. In the rebellion of 1641, the Scottish were said to be spared by the Irish rebels due to the similar affinities - the wikipedia article for the 1641 rebellion even states this.

3039:, just to get it on the record. The flags are not being used to "represent" Ulster Scots, so anywhere that's mentioed is irrelevant. They are being used to show the historical origins of the people who came to be the Ulster Scots, and they have been in the article a long time. Other Knowledge (XXG) articles use flags in the same way, so such use is either not a "violation" of Knowledge (XXG)'s rules, or the rules are being violated left and right. Maybe some of you who are dead set against the "random" use of flags need to visit some othere articles and clean house. The article on Detroit shows the flags of France, Great Britain, and the USA, even though the city is neither French nor British, and is not the USA, (even though it's IN the USA). The article on French Canadians displays multiple national, civic flags, and ethnic flags, although none represent "French Canadians" as a specific ethnicity (and even some of the ethnic flags are not especially accepted or even known about by many they are supposed to represent). The article on Afrikaners doesn't display flags of countries where the Afrikaners' ancestors originated, but it does display the national flags of the various countries where Afrikaners live today, including New Zealand, Brazil, and Argentina. 1769:; that's not "going about editing", that's interfering with everyone else's editing. Alssa1 is confusing making an edit (attempting to contribute to the encyclopedia) with making the same edit over and over again despite objections (disrupting the encyclopedia). And "it might still be a good contribution" does not mean "is necessarily a good contribution", especially in the face of multiple reasons that it is not a good one. Finally, "a people and their ethnogenesis" has nothing really to do with sticking a bunch of flag images on them. The very fact that Alssa1 is treating the Ulster Scots as if they were a homogenous blob is problematic, as I've already pointed out, and which Alssa1 just ignored or simply did not understand ("This is talking tangentially to the point" Alssa1 responded, remember). 3020:, the flags are not being used to represent the Ulster Scots people and are only being used for decoration. None of those flags represent Ulster Scots. Just because Ulster Scots have lived in those countries doesn't mean they represent them. Would you use the Union Flag to represent Irish people? Extreme example yes, but not removed from what the flags are being used to represent here. None of those flags represent Ulster Scots and Ulster Scots are not represented by those flags. Ulster Scots are not a unified people or a nation and are therefore not represented by any national flag. They're just an ethnic group with no other real ties and at no point in history have any of those flags been used to represent Ulster Scots. 290: 269: 1761:, etc. If Alssa1's principle were valid, we probably could have no guidelines or policies at all (at least not enforceable ones, and it would certainly be impossible to introduce new P&G that addressed pre-existing problems, since the pre-existing would be automatically immune!), and all content on WP would just be directly controlled by a pack of warring wikiprojects asserting temporal primacy against each other on a page-by-page basis. Be glad that is not the case. Next, "doesn't damage the usability or usefulness of the article" is not an inclusion rationale, and is a classic "argument to avoid" ( 1679:(and note local consensus cannot usually override the MOS.) In no way do these flags represent the people the article is discussing. Not a single one of those flags represents a geographic area solely populated by the people being discussed. And this people are not confined to any of the geographic areas represented by those flags. Additionally they're not mentioned in the article and as a result of these points, per the MOS they're not being used to support the article and are merely decorative which is not permitted. This isn't necessarily about flags either, it's about not having relevant images. 1871:

involved in another contentious discussion about a related article that you'd like to change the name of. You are involved in contention about that article, and you are involved in contention about this article. Nobody likes it when someone just wants to wield a stick to stir things up. Whether or not there are flag images in this group doesn't matter to the content. Maybe they are just decorative. But stirring up contention about it doesn't do the community any good at all. They aren't hurting anything by simply being part of the decor. Please try to be a little bit less contentious.

3149:

Scotland to Ireland and vice versa, INCLUDING PRE-PLANTATION. There is genetic evidence of links between Down and Galloway. The haplogroups for Irish clans like McGuinness are also found in southwest Scotland. Similarly Dal Riada and the migrations between the Glens of Antrim -Ballycastle/Cushendall and Argyll. The religious affiliations doesn't really matter. You can see Scottish Gaelic Catholics in the Glens of Antrim, like those settled in the MacDonnell estate. You can also see Scottish Gaelic Presbyterians in Ireland. I point to McKinley, the American President.

1961:

don't materially influence the article. But they do reflect the countries associated with the history of the Ulster Scots. They are fine. Loads of Knowledge (XXG) articles have superfluous images, that do not materially contribute to the article. They are pictures, and an article could serve perfectly well with only words. But pictures provide a bit of visual enhancement. If someone had tossed in the flags of Russia or Japan, then I'd have an issue with it, but the flags shown do indeed reflect the history of the Ulster Scots.

1125:. Everything about the flag usage you're trying to insist on is politically laden, from applying a traditional flag of Ireland to people mostly in Northern Ireland, to using an unofficial Ulster flag that is a Unionist symbol, to applying a Scottish flag to people only descended multi-generationally from Scots, to adding the flag of England which really has nothing to do with Ulster Scots or Ulster at all (the English flag is not the Union Jack). And you are certainly not "listen to concerns raised by other editors" so far. 1907:. "Please try to be a little bit less contentious." Our talk pages exist for improving the pages they are attached to; this generally requires contention, because editors do not have a hive mind. Going around page after page disagreeing with me, and more to the point making inappropriate insinuations about my motivations, is not you being "a bit less contentious", it's you picking a fight about as pointedly as one can be picked here. 2604:. FOTW is a long-established wiki-type repository for, as the name suggests, flags. Here you will find multiple uses of the Cross of St George by organizations which draw their primary membership from Ulster Scots, and some lesser use of the Cross of St Andrew (although in my own experience in Northern Ireland I've seen more St. Andrew's Crosses than those of St George). Also see Ulster University's CAIN Archive concerning 1890:

Stick to the actual rationales presented in discussions instead of following around people who disagreed with you in one place to demonize them in others. And try thinking before coming up with conspiracy-theory-style wild hypotheses about other editors' motives: If it's plausible that you happened to notice this discussion because you have a bunch of articles on your watchlist, don't you think maybe, maybe it possible that

2801:. Just because you are failing to understand how Knowledge (XXG) works and what its policies actually mean doesn't mean anyone is doing you a wrong or making any other kind of mistake. In particular, 'So Knowledge (XXG) "consensus" is itself not a reliable source about what is or isn't a reliable source' is just confused in the extreme. WP's own internal determinations as to what are reliable sources are quite binding (see 589: 568: 494: 799: 778: 484: 463: 3192:

anything about until the last generation or so) has nothing to do with socio-cultural group identity (either intrinsic to the group or used historically/anthropologically/sociologically as a categoriser). The most that needs to be done here is some clarity about when the term arose, but that will require further reliable sourcing, if there is even a source that identifies the coining of the term at all.

1135:, but Ulster Scots are not a sovereign state, and they cross multiple sovereign states even in their home area. That section of MOS:FLAGS even addresses the UK in particular, suggesting that sometimes (usually not) flags for NI, Scotland, Wales, and England are separably useful in an article, but it does not do so for ethno-sociological groups like Ulster Scots. Back to one of these flags in particular: 809: 238: 207: 1794:. We don't remove long-standing edits while a discussion is taking place to resolve the dispute. As for the claim about 'homogeneity' of the Ulster Scots and me ignoring/not understanding your point - my position is that I didn't assert nor suggest that the Ulster Scots were a homogenous group, therefore having a discussion along those lines is tangential to the issue at hand. 1448:"You haven't read..." - I've read the entire article. That the Plantation of Ulster (the official part of it anyway) was instituted by the English crown does not make the flag of England a pertinent symbol for all of the Ulster Scots people into the present day. "those particular flags are not controversial": Your use of them is being controverted by at least 379: 358: 2491:...if there has not been any verifiable information published in reliable sources about the subject, then there is no way to check whether the information in the article is true, and it may damage the reputation of the subject and the project. Even if it is true, without the ability to check it, false information could very well start to seep in. 389: 659: 2364:. Readers should be able to expect that when images of symbols are included in an article about an ethnic group, that's because the symbols concerned represent that group. This isn't established by reliable sources for these symbols, and it appears that even the advocates of their inclusion don't see them all as symbols of the group. 1410:

thing they have in common is some ancestry from Scotland since the Early Modern period (and not from culturally/ethnically homogenous parts of Scotland; Highlanders are largely of Gaelic and Norse extraction, and Lowlanders largely Anglo-Saxon and Norman, but both supplied large numbers of immigrants to north Ireland).

1187:

2335:, no matter what page it's currently housed in; it is written with flags in general in mind, as is clear from its wording, and blowing up the icons to giant size simply compounds, not lessens, the problems with them). These are not symbols that represent the Ulster Scots, and the notion that they are is 3148:

It appears to me that the Ulster Scots which is outlined by the Ulster Scots society is that these people spoke a variant of Scots from Scotland and had some of their own specific traditions. What these are, I don't know. The genetics for this is complicated because there is historical migration from

2092:

What this is all boiling down to is people's opinions. Larry says, "I just don't think it belongs". McCandlish says it "seems" inappropriate. The images are of long standing in this article, to illustrate the countries of Ulster Scots' ancestry. It's helpful to illustrate that the ancestry wasn't

1960:

I have no idea what "potentially" wrong means. Something is either right or wrong. The flags reflects the primary countries from which the Ulster Scots came (Scotland and England), and the place to which they went (Ireland and the province of Ulster). Is this wrong? Again, they are decorative and

1870:

I have several related WP articles that I follow. This is one of them. I've remained quiet about the flag controversy in this article because it doesn't involve anything substantial, but now I have to provide some input about why there might be controversy at all. Mr. McCandlish, you are currently

1284:

instead, and the purpose these are serving in this article is basically that of icons, just large ones. When the guideline intends in particular to address small icons, such as those produced by the flag icon templates, it says so specifically (e.g. in the material about infobox and table usage). All

1183:

Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance: Subnational flags (regions, cities, etc.) should generally be used only when directly relevant to the article. Such flags are rarely recognizable by the general public, detracting from any shorthand utility they might have, and are rarely closely

3144:

This page appears problematic. Is there actual evidence that this identity exists historically? The reason I ask is because I cannot imagine that historically people referred to themselves as /Ulster Scots/. The idea of Ulster Scots appears to be a modern term applied to the group of people who came

2115:

inappropriate, for reasons that multiple editors have explained to you at great length. "To illustrate the countries of 's ancestry" is not an encyclopedic purpose of images. We do not need "a visual representation" of every single thing the article says somewhere in it. Rather than continue to go

1996:

Of the 10 clusters, seven were found to be of "Gaelic" Irish origin and three of mixed Irish and British ancestry. All of the mixed clusters were located in Northern Ireland. The geographical location of these three groupings, along with estimates of when the population mixing occurred - the 17th to

1709:

Knowledge (XXG) has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause a loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution

3182:

Perhaps more the point, the anon's notion that the article can't exist unless the term was historically used by the first of the people today called Ulster Scots is nonsense to begin with. Our articles are written around the facts and terminology used in reliable modern sources. The anon's position

3080:, the flags don't represent the people and it's difficult to see what they do represent - except being vaguely connected to significant historical phases, but even in that respect, the flags' purpose or role in each phase isn't clear. On balance their presence is more confusing than clarifying IMO. 2404:

of Ulster Scots, as least as they're defined by historians. They are very distantly related to the subject. Their use would serve the opposite of the intended purpose; it'd muddle the issue and give grounds for both malevolent propaganda and groundless animosity among users as well as contributors.

1409:

We've already covered this above, but in short it is not possible for these flags to be directly relative to a group of people scattered over the entire north of the island of Ireland, of mixed political loyalties and citizenship, and of completely different family-historical backgrounds; the only

1347:

Everything about the flag usage you're trying to insist on is politically laden, from applying a traditional flag of Ireland to people mostly in Northern Ireland, to using an unofficial Ulster flag that is a Unionist symbol, to applying a Scottish flag to people only descended multi-generationally

1186:

1068:

From what I can tell, the objections to the inclusion of flags are incredibly recent (we've had them on the page since 2009). They don't harm the article, and their long-standing presence suggests implies a long-standing consensus of them being on the page. They take nothing away from the article,

2679:

This is actually rather funny. "...written off as an unreliable source in general. Although some of its pages might refer to reliable sources, it is self-published content without editorial oversight..." That description could apply to Knowledge (XXG) itself. Knowledge (XXG) editors, after all,

1975:

Inclusion of flags in an article about an ethnic group suggests that those flags are recognised symbols of the group. I wrote "potentially wrong" because I don't know whether the St George's Cross is recognised by anyone as a symbol of Ulster Scots - it seems a bit unlikely to me but it's hard to

964:

I know there was an earlier discussion of a misused flag image, but I'm wondering why all the flags are currently even in this article. They don't seem to illustrate the article in any way, but just fill space. I think they should be removed. There is no official flag for Ulster Scots identity as

2339:

not backed up by reliable sourcing. These big flag images are serving nothing but a decoration purpose at best, and are apt to spark politicised controversy because of general sore feelings when it comes to flags and Ulster. And the entire notion is a major confusion of the idea of a nation or

1889:

bollocks. There is absolutely no – even theoretical – connection between how to spell a term for an American (and Canadian) diasporic ethnic group, and whether to inject a bunch of flags into an Ulster article after years and years of people losing it over inappropriate flags in Ulster articles.

1201:

Do not rewrite history: Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc. Political boundaries change, often over the span of a biographical article subject's lifetime. Where ambiguity or confusion could result, it is better not to use a flag at

1116:

Entities without flags until after a certain point in time: Some subnational entities have not had flags until recently (e.g. the Welsh flag has only been official since 1959). While this flag can still represent Wales generally, it should not be used to represent the country when the context is

2185:

What are you talking about? It's certainly a "rule", at the same level that any other WP guideline is a rule. It may not be as hard-and-fast a rule as a policy, but transgressing a guideline still requires a really compelling it-objectively-improves-the-encyclopedia reason to do it, and no such

1109:

It may in some narrow military history circumstances be appropriate to use flags, as they were used at the time being written about, including naval ensigns.... An example might be an in-depth exploration of a famous battle involving numerous forces with known flags; such flags might be used in

3167:

I once heard someone try to argue that there were no Germans before 1870, when the various kingdoms and principalities were united as the German Empire, which is of course nonsense. Similarly, to say that there were no Ulster Scots before the Partition of Ireland in 1921, is equally strange.

895:

What exactly is Protestant Scottish traditional music? As someone who has played Gaelic Traditional Music (Scottish/Irish/Manx/Cape Breton) for 10 years, I have never heard of this genre and am interested to learn more. I suggest deleting this. I also know many Prodestants from Ulster who play

3191:

is an invalid article because all the peoples classified as Slavic by anthropologists today did not historically call themselves by that name or consider themselves to belong to such a grouping. Also, the genetic argument introduced by the anon is meaningless. DNA heritage (which no one knew

1095:

Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams. ... Terms such as "country" and "nation" as used should be understood to also apply to other uses of flags, such as national

1102:

Use a historical flag and associated country name when they have at least a semi-officially applicable rationale to use them. For example, in lists of Olympic medalists, the USSR flag and country name should be used for reporting before 1992, not those of the Russian Federation or the

1162:

Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things. ... Emphasizing the importance of a person's citizenship or nationality above their other qualities risks violating

1458:"Absolutely no idea ..." Clearly. That you fail to understand, and just hand-wave to avoid, the arguments presented to you does not make the arguments wrong. Ditto for "This is talking tangentially to the point" and "I really don't follow this reasoning at all". That you don't 2950:

That's a red herring, we're not discussing voluntary political or sporting affiliations. The flags are non-controversial symbols of the groups that were responsible for the ethnogenesis of the Ulster Scots - and the selection of those groups are supported by reliable sources.

1674:

Yes. Flags are representative of nation-states. However this is an article about a people not a nation-state. Not a locale. Not a municipality. And not an ideal. It is an article about a people. Flags don't represent a people. As mentioned, including the flags here is failing

1400:

That's basically what's going on here. Because of MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, you are trying to just "decorate" the article by jamming images into it, and have inappropriately selected flags, which are subject to a lot of "regulation" on Knowledge (XXG) that you've not bothered to

1894:

also noticed and entered these discussions because they have a bunch of articles on their watchlist? Or are you just magically special? To return the actual substance of this thread: "Whether or not there are flag images in this doesn't matter to the content." That's an

1204:. These flags do misrepresent nationality, and the actual nationalities to which any given historical Ulster Scot, or the Ulster Scots as a group, has obviously changed over time (plus some of the flags you're defending the use of are not official symbols at all). 2286:) to illustrate and provide a visual representation of the ancestral countries/provinces of the Ulster Scots? This has been extensively discussed above, but there seem to be too few editors involved yet to put the matter to rest with a clear enough consensus, 2931:

Of course, it "harms" the article. More precisely, the inclusion of symbols not expressly used to denote the ethnic group's identity is confusing to the user and unnecessarily muddles the already complex history of the subject. Many Ulster Scots support the

1644:. They're being used for purely decorative reasons, they are not referenced in the text and are not supporting the text. Additionally having them implies that they represent the people in the text, which they don't. This is about a people, not a country. 1273:

Nope. Nothing in the wording of it suggests that at all, everything it says about the problems of using flags having nothing to do with their size, it's in that particular guideline for lack of better place to put it (though it arguably could be moved

2864:. The "wiki-types" well, they are not; and this makes them unusable here. It's actually very surprising that you are ready to pull down the Knowledge (XXG) project's foundational policies in order to open the way for any and all. But, explicitly, 3227:

Yeah, but this article promotes a blood fantasy that this group remained "culturally" and "ethnically" distinct from the local Irish population (and misuses the word "ethnic"), which is clearly nonsense and not consistent with some of the latest

1765:). Yes, it is "acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing"; no one is expected to memorize all WP rules, and doing so is not required to make an edit. What is not acceptable is to editwar against all comers to preserve your personal 3231:. You also list "English" and "Scottish" as related ethnic groups but leave out "Irish", even though the English and Scottish view these people as Irish. In fact, much of this article promotes what Kerby Miller calls the "two traditions" thesis 2608:

which shows use of the flags of St George, St Andrew, Province of Ulster, and various other flags. And don't say, "But these flags aren't being used to represent Ulster Scots". Who else would be flying these flags in Ulster? Puerto Ricans?

1418:

This doesn't pertain in a literal sense, but it does in an in-spirit on, since you are attempting to use these flags as catch-all symbols for diverse people who cross national boundaries; essentially making up a supranational use for these

1748:

material that now exists against it' is never a reason for any P&G material to not be applied to applicable content. Let's not be silly. Never in the history of Knowledge (XXG) has such an argument ever been accepted. Cf.

1479:"No, that's not the situation at all." Except it demonstrably is. I'll quote someone else who reverted you: "Fails MOS:FLAG and MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Images are not mentioned in the text, so are not illustrating the text." 986:

I'm also curious - removing them outright messes with the formatting a bit but I am strongly tempted to do so given it's been brought up a couple times on the talk page and as far as I can tell no one has defended them.

153: 1469:"You are aware that there is a distinction between 'listening' and 'agreeing' right?" Your failure to address the substance of most of the arguments is a failure to listen and engage, not a substantive disagreement. 2991:. Ethnic groups might have -they usually have- a complex and varied ethnic history but we do not put up symbols of every one of their ancestral tribes. Why? Because it's essentially an exercise in irrelevance and 1217:

principles with regard to "biographies" and "sub-national entities" in particular need to be edited to be a little clearer that they apply to ethnic groups, just to forestall anything like this coming up again.

1179:, you are trying to just "decorate" the article by jamming images into it, and have inappropriately selected flags, which are subject to a lot of "regulation" on Knowledge (XXG) that you've not bothered to read. 1712:" You are advocating the removal of a decades-long inclusion which doesn't damage the usability or usefulness of the article and which has been included on this article page for as long as the MOS has existed. 340: 1703:" - nations are a people, and we are talking about a people and their ethnogenesis. Even if the inclusion failed the MOS (which for the record I don't agree that it does), you need to take account of the 3574: 2507:

The quote seems to work against your Yes suggestion. By inserting the symbols without sources that support their use by the subject group, we risk, if not assure, that "false information will seep in."

1193:. This doesn't pertain in a literal sense, but it does in an in-spirit on, since you are attempting to use these flags as catch-all symbols for diverse people who cross national boundaries; essentially 330: 1553:, making it clear that the rules do not apply to larger images. Possibly the community shares your view, but until the Manual of Style is changed what matters is the guidelines as they're written. 1323:

Nothing like that applies here, to create a big vertical gallery of flags, as Ulster Scots are not formal representatives, like a sports team, of anywhere or "anywhen" to which those flags pertain.

1105:

Nothing like that applies here, to create a big vertical gallery of flags, as Ulster Scots are not formal representatives, like a sports team, of anywhere or "anywhen" to which those flags pertain.

3569: 3515:

The lead says, "or, in North America, Scotch-Irish." I cannot access the source, but it seems that the normal term in Canada is Ulster-Scots and before that they were just referred to as Irish.

306: 1339:

Ulster Scots have no flag that pertains to them in particular at all, and do not form a jurisdiction of any kind, much less a sub-national political entity to which a flag applies, now or ever.

1119:

Ulster Scots have no flag that pertains to them in particular at all, and do not form a jurisdiction of any kind, much less a sub-national political entity to which a flag applies, now or ever.

3584: 3153: 435: 1455:

editors (one in great detail), so your claim of lack of controversy is false on its face. (Ditto for "What you've described as a 'politicised editorial controversy' is not reflected...").

3604: 1903:. "Maybe they are just decorative." That's another perfect reason to remove them, per the general image use guidelines not just the flag-specific one. "They aren't hurting anything": 1384:

This is clearly politicised and has raised editorial controversy; there's no reason to think this MoS principle doesn't apply to mass-biographical articles and only to individual bios.

1149:

This is clearly politicised and has raised editorial controversy; there's no reason to think this MoS principle doesn't apply to mass-biographical articles and only to individual bios.

742: 297: 274: 3579: 2443:- it offers precisely no harm to the article and suggestion that the symbols are not relevant to the group is not accurate given the sources provided and the history of the group. 690: 1849:

ping, so you can let us know if you've changed your mind in the interim. In absence of their renewed participation here, however, their concerns have to be taken at face value.

715: 705: 445: 147: 896:

Irish/Scottish trad music and doubt that you can desect Ulster Scots, Irish, Scottish, Scottish Protestants, Scottish hythens, and Scottish Catholics along music lines.

198: 2699: 2605: 1147:

Avoid flag usage, especially to present a point of view, that is likely to raise editorial controversy over political or other factual matters about a biography subject.

720: 710: 1810:

The 'length of time' point was primarily about challenging the idea that the flags need to be removed; it wasn't attempting to answer the question about verifiability.

639: 3589: 3619: 3229: 629: 411: 755: 2783:

OK. I'll give way to the gate-keepers of Knowledge (XXG) rule integrity. You folks are right. It's all about officious bureaucracy. I should have known.

79: 3097:, the flags aren't related to the ethic group, and as such, should not be included in the article because of the very likely potential of confusing readers. 2766: 1145:. This is actually worse, using it to represent people who are not even limited to Northern Ireland but also found in the RoI, especially Donegal. See also 869: 3624: 3614: 3398:– Something about the "back end" of the disaporic process. Part of a series that also includes volumes on Renfrewshire, Dumfries and Galloway, Lanarkshire. 44: 605: 550: 2761:. And shows that, at the very least, you have not understood why Knowledge (XXG) proclaims itself as unreliable. As to consensus, good luck tearing down 1928:

The idea that having potentially wrong information in an encyclopedia article (not a "group" - this isn't social media) doesn't do any harm is worrying.

1123:

Political issues: Beware of political pitfalls, and listen to concerns raised by other editors. Some flags are (sometimes or always) political statements

700: 1544:: While icons can be useful in Knowledge (XXG) articles in some circumstances, there are also problems associated with their misapplication and overuse. 604:, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join 3634: 3599: 2536:

You have sources that Ulster Scots have some ancestry from places represented by such flags, not that they use these flags as group self-identifiers.

1462:

the relevance doesn't mean the relavance is not there, and just declaring something irrelevant to you doesn't address the concern raised at all. It's

1348:

from Scots, to adding the flag of England which really has nothing to do with Ulster Scots or Ulster at all (the English flag is not the Union Jack).

859: 540: 402: 363: 751: 85: 3639: 1567:

Correct, (and I mistyped in an edit summary also), MOS:FLAGS is only pertaining to the use of the flag icons. This discussion is more related to

1990:

No one asserted that the St George's Cross was a symbol of the Ulster Scots, it's a symbol of England - and a link to England is justified by a

1372:

This is actually worse, using it to represent people who are not even limited to Northern Ireland but also found in the RoI, especially Donegal.

3629: 3609: 3232: 2426:, summarised as "illustrate, not decorate". So which part of the article do the flags illustrate? Or where to they replace a thousand words? -- 835: 663: 596: 573: 3594: 1173:

Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available: A flag (or other symbolic image) should not be used as an image placeholder

516: 289: 268: 30: 925: 1386:" What you've described as a 'politicised editorial controversy' is not reflected by the reality of the article and/or the flags used. 3316: 2973:

No herring in this table, I'm afraid; only symiaki garida cooked with cheese, as it happens. (Don't be jealous, now.) These flags are

998:

I removed them, since they don't improve the article in any way and seem to have been added as decoration. We'll see if that sticks.

945: 194: 190: 2071:

groups, just because they are in some sense ancestral to the one that is our subject, seems especially inappropriate and misleading.

99: 3504: 3465: 3446: 3428: 3410: 3391: 3371: 3353: 3335: 3291: 3259: 3203: 3157: 2901: 2820: 2600:

As for whether Ulster Scots actually "use" the crosses of St. George or St Andrew, please see "Flags of the World" (FOTW) regarding

2590: 2547: 2475: 2351: 2309: 2213: 2127: 2082: 2003:" Do we need to have a specific source that proves (for example) that the flag of England is a symbol of England, or can we rely on 1918: 1860: 1780: 1610: 1492: 1300: 1245: 1229: 1139:

Some flags are politically contentious – take care to avoid using them in inappropriate contexts. Some examples are: ... Use of the

1058: 1034: 1009: 2718:

Right. That's my point. So Knowledge (XXG) "consensus" is itself not a reliable source about what is or isn't a reliable source.

2233: 924:

The definition is quite elementary... Irish/Scottish traditional music plus a lambeg drum = Scottish Protestant traditional music!

822: 783: 104: 20: 168: 3248:

Well, our articles don't research and write themselves. Maybe get some books and work their relevant gist into the article. :-)

2740: 2067:

Yes, and it's not clear there even is any image that is widely symbolic of Ulster Scots. But sticking images widely symbolic of

507: 468: 135: 74: 3534:

I copy-edited the lead as it seemed in need of précis and so I removed clutter, duplication, tangents and excessive detail per

1976:

know when there's no reference to a source. I'd also remind you that the standard for inclusion isn't truth but verifiability.

249: 912: 302: 65: 1726:

Regardless of what the MOS says, the inclusion of these flags as representatives of an ethnic group would need sources per

938:

That's not Ulster-Scots that's Irish and Scottish music respectively, you're trying to invent a genre that doesn't exist.

889: 3135:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2809:

is a published work. A Knowledge (XXG) consensus is a decision-making process. Not meaningfully comparable in any way.

3485: 3481: 1069:

and their presence is not in breach of any wiki rules - therefore I don't agree that it is legitimate to remove them.

2992: 2865: 2021:

No, but if it was just included as a symbol of England, then I don't think it belongs in an article on Ulster Scots.

129: 2852:, is user generated, well described by you as a "wiki-type" site. Note the extremely significant difference between 2388: 2175: 1844: 988: 206: 185: 2695: 2381:

not in the way they were included. They were just not informative to the relevant text and potentially misleading.

2093:

all Ulster or all Scot. It already says so in the article, but the flags give a visual representation of this.

109: 3551: 3520: 3477: 3026: 2708: 2665: 2267: 2255: 1685: 1650: 1577: 2736: 1766: 1463: 217: 125: 2748: 2369: 2058: 2026: 1981: 1937: 1735: 3535: 1206:

Flags make simple, blunt statements about nationality, while words can express the facts with more complexity.

255: 237: 1595:

for a lack of better place to put it, and most of it is general, about flag usage at all. When it means flag

1445:

in a hand-wave manner that something it's applicable doesn't explain or demonstrate that it isn't applicable.

949: 929: 394: 2108: 1750: 941: 900: 175: 3489: 2805:

for the formal process). That doesn't make it a "source" that itself can be determined reliable or not. A

2557:

Nobody is claiming that Ulster Scots use these flags as self-identifiers, so please stop repeating this..

677: 1331:

Ulster Scots are not a military unit, and this is nothing like use of small identifying flags in a table.

1112:

Ulster Scots are not a military unit, and this is nothing like use of small identifying flags in a table.

55: 3501: 3256: 3239: 3200: 2898: 2817: 2587: 2544: 2472: 2348: 2306: 2210: 2124: 2079: 1915: 1857: 1777: 1607: 1489: 1297: 1242: 1226: 1176: 1055: 1031: 1006: 834:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

515:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

410:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

305:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1758: 70: 3235: 3547: 3516: 3021: 2703: 2660: 2251: 1997:

18th Centuries - led the researchers to surmise that this was related to the Ulster Plantation, when

1680: 1660:

The flags are representative of nation-states - they are both representations of nations and states.

1645: 1572: 1441:"Again, not relevant" - Ditto. And so on. I'm going to skip the rest of these pseudo-arguments. Just 2191: 2035:

Why? Does that source not demonstrate a verifiable link to England (and Scotland) for Ulster Scots?

1472:"The Ulster Banner is not on the page" - The "traditional" variant of it you're using is covered at 3066: 3000: 2941: 2873: 2774: 2744: 2513: 2410: 2365: 2054: 2022: 1977: 1933: 1837:, Alssa1 has implied that the previous editors who raised these concerns no longer share them. So: 1731: 1351: 161: 24: 2486: 2461: 1929: 1904: 1762: 1745: 1727: 1704: 3218: 3173: 3085: 3044: 2788: 2723: 2685: 2614: 2562: 2324: 2098: 2050: 1966: 1876: 1676: 1641: 1568: 1558: 1264: 908: 222: 141: 2116:

in circles with you, I'm just going to open an RfC on the matter and get more community input.

3462: 3443: 3425: 3407: 3404:

The Plantation of Ulster: The British Colonization of the North of Ireland in the 17th Century

3388: 3368: 3350: 3332: 3313: 3288: 3054: 831: 51: 3306: 2656: 2576: 2111:

argument, one of the classic "arguments to avoid". I used "seems" to be polite. They clearly

2004: 1164: 3496: 3251: 3195: 2956: 2893: 2812: 2582: 2539: 2527: 2498: 2467: 2448: 2343: 2301: 2275: 2205: 2119: 2074: 2040: 2012: 1951: 1910: 1852: 1815: 1799: 1772: 1717: 1665: 1602: 1484: 1426: 1292: 1237: 1221: 1110:

summary tables to make it clearer which force was being referred to for a particular detail.

1074: 1050: 1026: 1001: 407: 219: 2887: 2883: 2853: 2802: 2572: 2199: 2187: 1791: 1754: 1154: 3121: 2279: 1991: 976: 814: 731: 2857: 2336: 1438:"This is not relevant to the use case" - Just an assertion that makes no actual argument. 1194: 3062: 2996: 2937: 2869: 2770: 2509: 2406: 2385: 2271: 2202:

concerns about mis-applying nationalistic and controversial labels to an ethnic group.

2172: 499: 2987: 2861: 2250:

The rough consensus was that the flags should not be used and they have been removed.

2195: 3563: 3214: 3184: 3169: 3081: 3040: 2849: 2784: 2758: 2732: 2719: 2681: 2655:

Flags of the World has long been declared a completely unusable non-reliable site at

2610: 2558: 2431: 2094: 1962: 1872: 1554: 1473: 1366:" You are aware that there is a distinction between 'listening' and 'agreeing' right? 1260: 1140: 904: 2571:

Please stop ignoring that applying flags to people who don't use them is an obvious

2400:. The aforementioned symbols do not denote the subject of the article, which is the 3323:– Covers the Plantation of Ulster through American emigration and early US history. 2933: 2601: 2401: 1435:"No one is asserting that they are" - But you're misusing the flags as if they are. 601: 588: 567: 1899:

rationale for deleting them, and a point made both by myself and and others, e.g.

1697:

The flags are representative of nation-states - they are both representations of

2952: 2798: 2523: 2494: 2444: 2036: 2008: 1947: 1811: 1795: 1713: 1710:"violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. 1661: 1422: 1358:

on 'relatedness'; the reasons for those particular flags are not controversial.

1070: 1044: 1946:

Sorry what is the 'potentially wrong information' you're referring to exactly?

798: 777: 221: 3555: 3524: 3509: 3422:

The Scot in Ulster: Sketch of the History of the Scottish Population of Ulster

3285:

The Scot in Ulster: Sketch of the History of the Scottish Population of Ulster

3264: 3243: 3222: 3208: 3177: 3161: 3125: 3114: 3089: 3070: 3048: 3031: 3004: 2960: 2945: 2906: 2877: 2825: 2792: 2778: 2752: 2727: 2713: 2689: 2670: 2618: 2595: 2566: 2552: 2531: 2517: 2502: 2480: 2452: 2435: 2423: 2414: 2392: 2373: 2356: 2314: 2259: 2218: 2179: 2132: 2102: 2087: 2062: 2044: 2030: 2016: 1985: 1970: 1955: 1941: 1923: 1886: 1880: 1865: 1840: 1819: 1803: 1790:

Accusing me of an edit war is not legitimate in the slightest, the process is

1785: 1739: 1721: 1690: 1669: 1655: 1615: 1582: 1562: 1497: 1430: 1364:

And you are certainly not "listen to concerns raised by other editors" so far.

1305: 1281: 1268: 1250: 1078: 1063: 1047:, what is your reasoning, in the face of objections from three other editors? 1039: 1014: 993: 980: 969: 953: 933: 916: 804: 489: 483: 462: 384: 1310:

Every supposed problem you're citing is not relevant to the subject/use case:

1169:

This clearly pertains even more to applying flags to entire groups of people.

2382: 2328: 2169: 2161: 1592: 1536: 1256: 1214: 1088: 697:

Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:

3546:, "you better discuss this first onb the talkpage". And so here we are... 3385:

Scotland During the Plantation of Ulster: The People of Ayrshire, 1600-1699

1476:

and is also controverial for same socio-political reasons as the white one.

691:

Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups

3539: 2427: 827: 600:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to 2168:

a rule! Really don't know why there are people who still don't get that.

1133:

a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state

512: 2053:). Better to include images widely agreed to be symbols of the group. 658: 1153:

Inappropriate use: Do not emphasize nationality without good reason.

3329:

The Scotch-Irish: From the North of Ireland to the Making of America

1730:. Having been in the article for a long time doesn't obviate that. 1259:

applies specifically to flag icons, and these images aren't icons.

1129:

Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations: ... In general,

378: 357: 3347:

Ulster to America: The Scots-Irish Migration Experience, 1680–1830

3188: 2331:(which, contrary to Alssa1's belief above, is not limited to flag 3459:

Ireland in the Virginian Sea: Colonialism in the British Atlantic

2856:

and this type of "wiki-type" sites: Knowledge (XXG) is all about

3300:

More about out-migration of Ulster Scots to the Americas, etc.:

725: 231: 223: 15: 1394:" Absolutely no idea how you're arriving at that conclusion. 1098:. Ulster Scots are not the repesenatives of any jurisdiction. 2845: 3187:

because the ancient Egyptians didn't call it that, or that

2493:" - it's a little bit more nuanced than you're making out. 1315:

Ulster Scots are not the repesenatives of any jurisdiction.

1255:

I don't think this is correct. Its name notwithstanding,

743:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

315:

Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom

2993:

Knowledge (XXG) is not a collection of random information

2866:

Knowledge (XXG) is not a repository of random information

2680:

aren't really editors. They are just self-publishers.

3105:, I started the latest thread and gave my opinion there. 2194:

decorating", especially when the case in point involves

1374:" The Ulster Banner is not on the page, and there was a 3543: 2283: 1900: 1835: 1588: 1191:

Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance

1143:

to represent Northern Ireland in inappropriate contexts

1020: 3575:

Low-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles

1208:

That's the nutshell summary of the overall issue here.

1155:

Knowledge (XXG) is not a place for nationalistic pride

160: 1087:

in breach of wiki rules. You appear not to have read

2232:

The following discussion is an archived record of a

1175:. That's basically what's going on here. Because of 1117:

specifically about a time period predating the flag.

826:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 716:

Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment

706:

Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action

511:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 406:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 301:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 3570:

Start-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles

3461:. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. 3312:. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. 2242:

No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1999:

English and Scottish Protestants settled in Ireland

1539:makes it very clear that it applies only to icons: 1378:

to not use a similarly-sectarian flag back in 2007.

318:

Template:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom

174: 3305: 3168:Actually, they were the reason for the Partition. 3585:High-importance Northern Ireland-related articles 3472:– Has at least some material on the Ulster Scots. 3453:– Has at least some material on the Ulster Scots. 721:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention 711:Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes 3365:Ulster Emigration to Colonial America, 1718–1785 1213:This discussion suggests to me that some of the 1165:Knowledge (XXG)'s "Neutral point of view" policy 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 3605:Start-Class Ireland articles of High-importance 3234:, which I do not believe is a mainstream view. 1421:" I really don't follow this reasoning at all. 3486:Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians#Additional sources 3482:Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans#Additional sources 3183:is rather like arguing that we have to delete 2340:other polity, versus that of an ethnic group. 1023:, but has not provided any kind of rationale. 3580:Start-Class Northern Ireland-related articles 2769:manifesto? We have enough or them already.) - 2245:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 1640:I've removed the flags, they completely fail 965:much as some people would wish there were. — 687:of articles within the scope of this project. 8: 3478:Talk:Plantation of Ulster#Additional sources 2225:RfC on inclusion of ancestral national flags 1412:" This is talking tangentially to the point. 1275: 420:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Northern Ireland 2700:WP:Knowledge (XXG) is not a reliable source 2293: 2287: 2186:reason is presented here. You can't invoke 235: 2985:of those flags represent them. And that's 2739:as your comments are starting to get into 1587:Except it's not. I already addressed this 1355: 939: 772: 701:Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles 647: 562: 457: 352: 298:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom 263: 3490:Talk:Scottish diaspora#Additional sources 614:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethnic groups 2190:with a rationale that boils down to "I 2160:To clarify, I want to stress here that 1403:" No, that's not the situation at all. 1325:" This is not relevant to the use-case. 1285:the other material is about flag usage 774: 564: 459: 354: 321:Politics of the United Kingdom articles 265: 3590:All WikiProject Northern Ireland pages 3512:; rev'd. 13:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC) 3442:. Southern Illinois University Press. 3440:New Perspectives on the Irish Diaspora 1547: 1540: 1341:" Again, not relevant to the use case 1205: 1200: 1190: 1184:related to the subject of the article. 1182: 1172: 1161: 1152: 1146: 1138: 1128: 1122: 1115: 1108: 1101: 1094: 3620:Mid-importance Ethnic groups articles 2602:"political flags" in Northern Ireland 890:Protestant Scottish traditional music 651:WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: 423:Template:WikiProject Northern Ireland 7: 3154:2A02:C7F:864B:CC00:448:3A75:4733:353 2936:. Should we put up a Rangers flag? - 1317:" No one is asserting that they are. 1197:a supranational use for these flags. 844:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Scotland 820:This article is within the scope of 594:This article is within the scope of 505:This article is within the scope of 400:This article is within the scope of 295:This article is within the scope of 2741:Knowledge (XXG):Tendentious editing 525:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ireland 23:for discussing improvements to the 3625:WikiProject Ethnic groups articles 3615:Start-Class Ethnic groups articles 3308:The Scotch-Irish: A Social History 3059:- to find that other stuff exists! 1932:is a core policy for good reason. 1546:This is followed by a definition, 617:Template:WikiProject Ethnic groups 14: 3349:. University of Tennessee Press. 426:Northern Ireland-related articles 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3635:Mid-importance Scotland articles 3600:High-importance Ireland articles 3367:. Ulster Historical Foundation. 3131:The discussion above is closed. 2606:"Flags Used in Northern Ireland" 2266:Should this article include the 1352:relevant sections of the article 807: 797: 776: 657: 587: 566: 492: 482: 461: 387: 377: 356: 288: 267: 236: 205: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 3304:Leyburn, James Graham (1989) . 1599:specifically, it says "icons". 1591:. The flag material is just in 864:This article has been rated as 634:This article has been rated as 545:This article has been rated as 440:This article has been rated as 335:This article has been rated as 3640:All WikiProject Scotland pages 3438:Fanning, Charles, ed. (2000). 3090:05:40, 12 September 2023 (UTC) 3071:12:34, 12 September 2023 (UTC) 3049:20:53, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 3032:14:01, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 3005:15:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 2961:13:46, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 2907:01:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC) 2878:18:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2826:01:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC) 2793:22:57, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2779:18:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2765:. (What is this? Some kind of 2753:15:38, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2728:14:43, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2714:14:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2698:. Which is exactly the reason 2690:13:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2671:13:33, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2619:12:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2596:03:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2567:02:26, 11 September 2023 (UTC) 2553:21:02, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 2532:13:44, 10 September 2023 (UTC) 2284:in this version of the article 1234:18:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 312:Politics of the United Kingdom 303:Politics of the United Kingdom 275:Politics of the United Kingdom 254:It is of interest to multiple 1: 3630:Start-Class Scotland articles 3610:All WikiProject Ireland pages 3525:21:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC) 3494: 3249: 3223:02:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 3209:22:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 3193: 2946:20:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2891: 2810: 2580: 2537: 2518:20:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2503:20:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2481:18:35, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2465: 2464:, classic argument to avoid. 2453:16:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2436:14:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2415:12:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2393:08:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2374:06:39, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2357:06:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2341: 2315:06:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2299: 2270:, the traditional provincial 2219:21:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC) 2203: 2180:08:24, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2133:06:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2117: 2103:02:38, 8 September 2023 (UTC) 2088:21:23, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 2072: 2063:20:18, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 2045:20:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 2031:19:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 2017:19:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 1986:18:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC) 1971:21:06, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 1956:18:53, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 1942:08:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC) 1924:01:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC) 1908: 1881:22:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1866:22:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1850: 1820:18:58, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 1804:19:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC) 1786:22:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1770: 1744:And 'this stuff preceded the 1740:21:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1722:21:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1691:20:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1670:20:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1656:20:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1616:20:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1600: 1583:20:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1563:20:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1498:20:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1482: 1431:20:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1306:19:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1290: 1269:18:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1251:18:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1235: 1219: 1079:14:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1064:00:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1048: 1040:00:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC) 1024: 999: 847:Template:WikiProject Scotland 838:and see a list of open tasks. 608:and see a list of open tasks. 519:and see a list of open tasks. 414:and see a list of open tasks. 309:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 3595:Start-Class Ireland articles 3345:Hofstra, Warren R. (2021) . 3265:13:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC) 3244:06:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC) 3178:21:45, 5 November 2022 (UTC) 2977:being used to represent the 2522:But they do have sources... 1551:encompasses any small images 528:Template:WikiProject Ireland 403:WikiProject Northern Ireland 3510:20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC) 3387:. Genealogical Publishing. 2844:The content of the website 2757:This is truly astonishing, 2702:and can't be used as such. 1158:. Clear FAIL on that count. 1015:19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) 994:05:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC) 954:22:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC) 934:14:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC) 3656: 3538:and the other guidance of 3402:Bardon, Jonathan (2013) . 2049:It's not relevant enough ( 870:project's importance scale 640:project's importance scale 551:project's importance scale 446:project's importance scale 341:project's importance scale 3556:12:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC) 3126:02:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC) 2735:, if I were you, I would 2268:Royal Standard of Ireland 2260:12:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC) 1392:Clear FAIL on that count. 1375: 981:16:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC) 917:19:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC) 863: 792: 664:WikiProject Ethnic groups 646: 633: 597:WikiProject Ethnic groups 582: 544: 477: 439: 372: 334: 283: 262: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3457:Horning, Audrey (2012). 3420:Harrison, John (2018) . 3406:. Gill & MacMillan. 3283:Harrison, John (2018) . 3162:19:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC) 3133:Please do not modify it. 2239:Please do not modify it. 1992:previously quoted source 3363:Dickson, R. J. (2010). 3327:Chepesiuk, Ron (2005). 3140:Does this really exist? 1542:This page in a nutshell 1350:" You haven't read the 1333:" Again, not relevant. 832:Scotland-related topics 395:Northern Ireland portal 3383:Dobson, David (2009). 2882:Or in short form: see 2294: 2288: 1276: 620:Ethnic groups articles 244:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 1845:LookOnMyEditsYeMighty 1792:BOLD, revert, discuss 1177:MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES 990:LookOnMyEditsYeMighty 248:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 199:Auto-archiving period 100:Neutral point of view 3152:Just some thoughts. 823:WikiProject Scotland 105:No original research 3424:. Forgotten Books. 3287:. Forgotten Books. 2694:Completely correct 2234:request for comment 1356:extended discussion 756:discuss these tasks 662:Here are some open 508:WikiProject Ireland 25:Ulster Scots people 3277:Additional sources 2846:Flags of the World 2325:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 2051:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 1677:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 1642:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 1569:MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE 739:Start an article: 250:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 3542:. This edit was 1885:That's a load of 1466:dismissivemeness. 956: 944:comment added by 920: 903:comment added by 884: 883: 880: 879: 876: 875: 850:Scotland articles 771: 770: 767: 766: 763: 762: 561: 560: 557: 556: 456: 455: 452: 451: 351: 350: 347: 346: 230: 229: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3647: 3508: 3471: 3452: 3434: 3416: 3397: 3377: 3359: 3341: 3322: 3311: 3297: 3263: 3207: 3124: 3119: 3113: 2905: 2858:reliable sources 2824: 2594: 2551: 2479: 2355: 2313: 2297: 2291: 2276:Scottish Saltire 2241: 2217: 2131: 2107:You're making a 2086: 1922: 1864: 1848: 1784: 1695:And as I said: " 1614: 1496: 1304: 1279: 1249: 1233: 1062: 1038: 1013: 991: 979: 974: 968: 919: 897: 852: 851: 848: 845: 842: 817: 812: 811: 810: 801: 794: 793: 788: 780: 773: 685:on the talk page 682: 676: 661: 648: 622: 621: 618: 615: 612: 591: 584: 583: 578: 570: 563: 533: 532: 531:Ireland articles 529: 526: 523: 502: 497: 496: 495: 486: 479: 478: 473: 465: 458: 428: 427: 424: 421: 418: 417:Northern Ireland 408:Northern Ireland 397: 392: 391: 390: 381: 374: 373: 368: 364:Northern Ireland 360: 353: 323: 322: 319: 316: 313: 292: 285: 284: 279: 271: 264: 247: 241: 240: 232: 224: 210: 209: 200: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 3655: 3654: 3650: 3649: 3648: 3646: 3645: 3644: 3560: 3559: 3532: 3468: 3456: 3449: 3437: 3431: 3419: 3413: 3401: 3394: 3382: 3374: 3362: 3356: 3344: 3338: 3326: 3319: 3303: 3294: 3282: 3279: 3213:Totally agree. 3142: 3137: 3136: 3120: 3117: 3111: 3023:Canterbury Tail 2934:Glascow Rangers 2854:Knowledge (XXG) 2737:drop this stick 2705:Canterbury Tail 2662:Canterbury Tail 2280:flag of England 2262: 2237: 2227: 1838: 1767:WP:RIGHTVERSION 1682:Canterbury Tail 1647:Canterbury Tail 1574:Canterbury Tail 1464:WP:ICANTHEARYOU 1454: 1451: 989: 975: 972: 966: 962: 898: 893: 849: 846: 843: 840: 839: 815:Scotland portal 813: 808: 806: 786: 732:Peruvian people 680: 674: 619: 616: 613: 610: 609: 576: 547:High-importance 530: 527: 524: 521: 520: 498: 493: 491: 472:High‑importance 471: 442:High-importance 425: 422: 419: 416: 415: 393: 388: 386: 367:High‑importance 366: 320: 317: 314: 311: 310: 277: 245: 226: 225: 220: 197: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 3653: 3651: 3643: 3642: 3637: 3632: 3627: 3622: 3617: 3612: 3607: 3602: 3597: 3592: 3587: 3582: 3577: 3572: 3562: 3561: 3536:WP:LEADCLUTTER 3531: 3528: 3493: 3474: 3473: 3466: 3454: 3447: 3435: 3429: 3417: 3411: 3399: 3392: 3380: 3379: 3378: 3372: 3360: 3354: 3342: 3336: 3324: 3318:978-0807842591 3317: 3298: 3292: 3278: 3275: 3274: 3273: 3272: 3271: 3270: 3269: 3268: 3267: 3225: 3141: 3138: 3130: 3129: 3128: 3107: 3106: 3099: 3098: 3092: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3055:I am shocked - 3034: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2918: 2917: 2916: 2915: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2910: 2909: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2755: 2745:Cordless Larry 2674: 2673: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2623: 2622: 2621: 2456: 2455: 2438: 2417: 2395: 2376: 2366:Cordless Larry 2359: 2334: 2298:, to move on. 2278:flag, and the 2272:flag of Ulster 2265: 2263: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2228: 2226: 2223: 2222: 2221: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2114: 2070: 2055:Cordless Larry 2023:Cordless Larry 1978:Cordless Larry 1958: 1934:Cordless Larry 1926: 1898: 1893: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1732:Cordless Larry 1638: 1637: 1636: 1635: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1598: 1517: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1480: 1477: 1470: 1467: 1461: 1456: 1452: 1449: 1446: 1444: 1439: 1436: 1414: 1413: 1405: 1404: 1396: 1395: 1388: 1387: 1380: 1379: 1368: 1367: 1360: 1359: 1343: 1342: 1335: 1334: 1327: 1326: 1319: 1318: 1311: 1288: 1211: 1210: 1209: 1198: 1188: 1180: 1170: 1159: 1150: 1136: 1132: 1126: 1120: 1113: 1106: 1099: 1086: 1042: 961: 960:Why the flags? 958: 923: 892: 887: 882: 881: 878: 877: 874: 873: 866:Mid-importance 862: 856: 855: 853: 836:the discussion 819: 818: 802: 790: 789: 787:Mid‑importance 781: 769: 768: 765: 764: 761: 760: 752:edit this list 748: 747: 746: 745: 737: 736: 735: 728: 723: 718: 713: 708: 703: 695: 694: 693: 688: 653: 652: 644: 643: 636:Mid-importance 632: 626: 625: 623: 606:the discussion 592: 580: 579: 577:Mid‑importance 571: 559: 558: 555: 554: 543: 537: 536: 534: 517:the discussion 504: 503: 500:Ireland portal 487: 475: 474: 466: 454: 453: 450: 449: 438: 432: 431: 429: 412:the discussion 399: 398: 382: 370: 369: 361: 349: 348: 345: 344: 337:Low-importance 333: 327: 326: 324: 307:the discussion 293: 281: 280: 278:Low‑importance 272: 260: 259: 253: 242: 228: 227: 218: 216: 215: 212: 211: 181: 180: 118: 117: 113: 112: 107: 102: 93: 92: 90: 89: 82: 77: 68: 62: 60: 59: 48: 39: 38: 35: 34: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3652: 3641: 3638: 3636: 3633: 3631: 3628: 3626: 3623: 3621: 3618: 3616: 3613: 3611: 3608: 3606: 3603: 3601: 3598: 3596: 3593: 3591: 3588: 3586: 3583: 3581: 3578: 3576: 3573: 3571: 3568: 3567: 3565: 3558: 3557: 3553: 3549: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3529: 3527: 3526: 3522: 3518: 3513: 3511: 3506: 3503: 3500: 3499: 3491: 3487: 3483: 3479: 3469: 3467:9781469610726 3464: 3460: 3455: 3450: 3448:9780809323449 3445: 3441: 3436: 3432: 3430:9781330652862 3427: 3423: 3418: 3414: 3412:9780717154470 3409: 3405: 3400: 3395: 3393:9780806353913 3390: 3386: 3381: 3375: 3373:9780901905178 3370: 3366: 3361: 3357: 3355:9781621902638 3352: 3348: 3343: 3339: 3337:9780786422739 3334: 3331:. McFarland. 3330: 3325: 3320: 3315: 3310: 3309: 3302: 3301: 3299: 3295: 3293:9781330652862 3290: 3286: 3281: 3280: 3276: 3266: 3261: 3258: 3255: 3254: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3241: 3237: 3233: 3230: 3226: 3224: 3220: 3216: 3212: 3211: 3210: 3205: 3202: 3199: 3198: 3190: 3186: 3185:Ancient Egypt 3181: 3180: 3179: 3175: 3171: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3163: 3159: 3155: 3150: 3146: 3139: 3134: 3127: 3123: 3116: 3109: 3108: 3104: 3101: 3100: 3096: 3093: 3091: 3087: 3083: 3079: 3076: 3072: 3068: 3064: 3060: 3058: 3052: 3051: 3050: 3046: 3042: 3038: 3035: 3033: 3030: 3029: 3025: 3024: 3019: 3016: 3015: 3006: 3002: 2998: 2994: 2990: 2989: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2962: 2958: 2954: 2949: 2948: 2947: 2943: 2939: 2935: 2930: 2929: 2908: 2903: 2900: 2897: 2896: 2889: 2885: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2867: 2863: 2862:verifiability 2859: 2855: 2851: 2847: 2843: 2842: 2827: 2822: 2819: 2816: 2815: 2808: 2804: 2800: 2796: 2795: 2794: 2790: 2786: 2782: 2781: 2780: 2776: 2772: 2768: 2764: 2760: 2756: 2754: 2750: 2746: 2742: 2738: 2734: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2712: 2711: 2707: 2706: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2692: 2691: 2687: 2683: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2675: 2672: 2669: 2668: 2664: 2663: 2658: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2638: 2637: 2620: 2616: 2612: 2607: 2603: 2599: 2598: 2597: 2592: 2589: 2586: 2585: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2569: 2568: 2564: 2560: 2556: 2555: 2554: 2549: 2546: 2543: 2542: 2535: 2534: 2533: 2529: 2525: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2515: 2511: 2506: 2505: 2504: 2500: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2477: 2474: 2471: 2470: 2463: 2460: 2459: 2458: 2457: 2454: 2450: 2446: 2442: 2439: 2437: 2433: 2429: 2425: 2421: 2418: 2416: 2412: 2408: 2403: 2399: 2396: 2394: 2390: 2387: 2384: 2380: 2377: 2375: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2360: 2358: 2353: 2350: 2347: 2346: 2338: 2332: 2330: 2326: 2322: 2319: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2311: 2308: 2305: 2304: 2296: 2290: 2285: 2281: 2277: 2273: 2269: 2261: 2257: 2253: 2246: 2243: 2240: 2235: 2230: 2229: 2224: 2220: 2215: 2212: 2209: 2208: 2201: 2197: 2193: 2189: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2181: 2177: 2174: 2171: 2167: 2163: 2134: 2129: 2126: 2123: 2122: 2112: 2110: 2109:WP:CONTENTAGE 2106: 2105: 2104: 2100: 2096: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2084: 2081: 2078: 2077: 2068: 2066: 2065: 2064: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2048: 2047: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2028: 2024: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2014: 2010: 2006: 2002: 2000: 1993: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1983: 1979: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1968: 1964: 1959: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1931: 1927: 1925: 1920: 1917: 1914: 1913: 1906: 1902: 1896: 1891: 1888: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1878: 1874: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1862: 1859: 1856: 1855: 1846: 1842: 1836: 1834:In user talk 1833: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1809: 1805: 1801: 1797: 1793: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1782: 1779: 1776: 1775: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1751:WP:CONTENTAGE 1747: 1743: 1742: 1741: 1737: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1724: 1723: 1719: 1715: 1711: 1706: 1702: 1700: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1689: 1688: 1684: 1683: 1678: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1667: 1663: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1654: 1653: 1649: 1648: 1643: 1639: 1617: 1612: 1609: 1606: 1605: 1596: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1581: 1580: 1576: 1575: 1570: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1560: 1556: 1552: 1550: 1545: 1543: 1538: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1531: 1530: 1529: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1520: 1519: 1518: 1499: 1494: 1491: 1488: 1487: 1481: 1478: 1475: 1474:Ulster Banner 1471: 1468: 1465: 1459: 1457: 1447: 1442: 1440: 1437: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1428: 1424: 1420: 1415: 1411: 1406: 1402: 1397: 1393: 1389: 1385: 1381: 1377: 1373: 1369: 1365: 1361: 1357: 1353: 1349: 1344: 1340: 1336: 1332: 1328: 1324: 1320: 1316: 1312: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1302: 1299: 1296: 1295: 1286: 1283: 1278: 1272: 1271: 1270: 1266: 1262: 1258: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1247: 1244: 1241: 1240: 1231: 1228: 1225: 1224: 1216: 1212: 1207: 1203: 1199: 1196: 1192: 1189: 1185: 1181: 1178: 1174: 1171: 1168: 1166: 1160: 1157: 1156: 1151: 1148: 1144: 1142: 1141:Ulster Banner 1137: 1134: 1130: 1127: 1124: 1121: 1118: 1114: 1111: 1107: 1104: 1100: 1097: 1093: 1092: 1090: 1084: 1082: 1081: 1080: 1076: 1072: 1067: 1066: 1065: 1060: 1057: 1054: 1053: 1046: 1043: 1041: 1036: 1033: 1030: 1029: 1022: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1011: 1008: 1005: 1004: 997: 996: 995: 992: 985: 984: 983: 982: 978: 971: 959: 957: 955: 951: 947: 943: 936: 935: 931: 927: 926:92.235.178.44 921: 918: 914: 910: 906: 902: 891: 888: 886: 871: 867: 861: 858: 857: 854: 837: 833: 829: 825: 824: 816: 805: 803: 800: 796: 795: 791: 785: 782: 779: 775: 759: 757: 753: 750:Feel free to 744: 741: 740: 738: 734: 733: 729: 727: 724: 722: 719: 717: 714: 712: 709: 707: 704: 702: 699: 698: 696: 692: 689: 686: 679: 678:Ethnic groups 672: 671: 669: 668: 667: 665: 660: 655: 654: 650: 649: 645: 641: 637: 631: 628: 627: 624: 611:Ethnic groups 607: 603: 602:ethnic groups 599: 598: 593: 590: 586: 585: 581: 575: 574:Ethnic groups 572: 569: 565: 552: 548: 542: 539: 538: 535: 518: 514: 510: 509: 501: 490: 488: 485: 481: 480: 476: 470: 467: 464: 460: 447: 443: 437: 434: 433: 430: 413: 409: 405: 404: 396: 385: 383: 380: 376: 375: 371: 365: 362: 359: 355: 342: 338: 332: 329: 328: 325: 308: 304: 300: 299: 294: 291: 287: 286: 282: 276: 273: 270: 266: 261: 257: 251: 243: 239: 234: 233: 214: 213: 208: 204: 196: 192: 189: 187: 183: 182: 177: 173: 170: 167: 163: 159: 155: 152: 149: 146: 143: 140: 137: 134: 131: 127: 124: 123:Find sources: 120: 119: 111: 110:Verifiability 108: 106: 103: 101: 98: 97: 96: 87: 83: 81: 78: 76: 72: 69: 67: 64: 63: 57: 53: 52:Learn to edit 49: 46: 41: 40: 37: 36: 32: 26: 22: 18: 17: 3533: 3514: 3497: 3475: 3458: 3439: 3421: 3403: 3384: 3364: 3346: 3328: 3307: 3284: 3252: 3196: 3151: 3147: 3143: 3132: 3102: 3094: 3077: 3056: 3036: 3027: 3022: 3017: 2986: 2982: 2979:Ulster Scots 2978: 2974: 2894: 2813: 2806: 2767:inclusionist 2762: 2709: 2704: 2666: 2661: 2583: 2540: 2490: 2468: 2440: 2419: 2402:ethnic group 2397: 2378: 2361: 2344: 2320: 2302: 2264: 2244: 2238: 2231: 2206: 2165: 2159: 2120: 2075: 1998: 1995: 1911: 1892:someone else 1853: 1773: 1708: 1698: 1696: 1686: 1681: 1651: 1646: 1603: 1578: 1573: 1548: 1541: 1485: 1417: 1408: 1399: 1391: 1383: 1371: 1363: 1346: 1338: 1330: 1322: 1314: 1293: 1238: 1222: 1096:subdivisions 1051: 1027: 1002: 963: 946:51.37.254.47 940:— Preceding 937: 922: 894: 885: 865: 821: 749: 730: 684: 670:Meta-tasks: 656: 635: 595: 546: 506: 441: 401: 336: 296: 256:WikiProjects 202: 184: 171: 165: 157: 150: 144: 138: 132: 122: 94: 19:This is the 3498:SMcCandlish 3253:SMcCandlish 3236:Jonathan f1 3197:SMcCandlish 2988:per sources 2895:SMcCandlish 2814:SMcCandlish 2799:sour grapes 2743:territory. 2584:SMcCandlish 2541:SMcCandlish 2469:SMcCandlish 2345:SMcCandlish 2303:SMcCandlish 2207:SMcCandlish 2121:SMcCandlish 2076:SMcCandlish 1912:SMcCandlish 1854:SMcCandlish 1774:SMcCandlish 1759:WP:CONLEVEL 1604:SMcCandlish 1486:SMcCandlish 1294:SMcCandlish 1239:SMcCandlish 1223:SMcCandlish 1052:SMcCandlish 1028:SMcCandlish 1021:reverted me 1003:SMcCandlish 899:—Preceding 246:Start-class 148:free images 31:not a forum 3564:Categories 3476:See also: 2696:as we know 2424:MOS:IMAGES 2282:(as shown 1887:ad hominem 1746:WP:P&G 1701:and states 1460:understand 1376:discussion 1282:MOS:IMAGES 673:Place the 3063:The Gnome 2997:The Gnome 2938:The Gnome 2870:The Gnome 2771:The Gnome 2579:problem. 2510:The Gnome 2489:states: " 2487:WP:NOHARM 2462:WP:NOHARM 2407:The Gnome 2329:MOS:FLAGS 2192:just like 2162:MOS:FLAGS 1930:WP:VERIFY 1905:WP:NOHARM 1897:excellent 1763:WP:NOHARM 1728:WP:VERIFY 1593:MOS:ICONS 1555:Dan Bloch 1537:MOS:FLAGS 1261:Dan Bloch 1257:MOS:FLAGS 1215:MOS:FLAGS 1195:making up 1089:MOS:FLAGS 683:template 88:if needed 71:Be polite 21:talk page 3544:reverted 3540:MOS:LEAD 3228:research 3215:Eastcote 3170:Eastcote 3082:Pincrete 3057:shocked! 3053:Well!.. 3041:Eastcote 2981:people. 2850:Eastcote 2785:Eastcote 2759:Eastcote 2733:Eastcote 2720:Eastcote 2682:Eastcote 2611:Eastcote 2559:Eastcote 2095:Eastcote 1963:Eastcote 1873:Eastcote 1705:guidance 1443:claiming 1277:en masse 1019:Someone 942:unsigned 913:contribs 905:Zimmer79 901:unsigned 841:Scotland 828:Scotland 784:Scotland 203:365 days 186:Archives 56:get help 29:This is 27:article. 2657:WP:RS/P 2577:WP:NPOV 2485:And as 2005:WP:BLUE 1699:nations 1354:or the 868:on the 666:tasks: 638:on the 549:on the 522:Ireland 513:Ireland 469:Ireland 444:on the 339:on the 154:WP refs 142:scholar 3548:Andrew 2953:Alssa1 2888:WP:UGC 2884:WP:SPS 2807:source 2803:WP:RSN 2573:WP:NOR 2524:Alssa1 2495:Alssa1 2445:Alssa1 2428:𝕁𝕄𝔽 2323:, per 2274:, the 2252:Andrew 2200:WP:NOR 2188:WP:IAR 2037:Alssa1 2009:Alssa1 1948:Alssa1 1812:Alssa1 1796:Alssa1 1755:WP:OWN 1714:Alssa1 1662:Alssa1 1423:Alssa1 1419:flags. 1287:at all 1071:Alssa1 1045:Alssa1 252:scale. 126:Google 3189:Slavs 3115:Parsa 2337:WP:OR 2333:icons 2069:other 1841:Parsa 1597:icons 1549:icons 1450:three 1401:read. 1083:They 970:Parsa 169:JSTOR 130:books 84:Seek 3552:talk 3530:Lead 3521:talk 3463:ISBN 3444:ISBN 3426:ISBN 3408:ISBN 3389:ISBN 3369:ISBN 3351:ISBN 3333:ISBN 3314:ISBN 3289:ISBN 3240:talk 3219:talk 3174:talk 3158:talk 3122:talk 3086:talk 3067:talk 3045:talk 3028:talk 3001:talk 2983:None 2957:talk 2942:talk 2886:and 2874:talk 2860:and 2797:Cf. 2789:talk 2775:talk 2763:that 2749:talk 2724:talk 2710:talk 2686:talk 2667:talk 2615:talk 2575:and 2563:talk 2528:talk 2514:talk 2499:talk 2449:talk 2432:talk 2422:per 2411:talk 2370:talk 2327:and 2256:talk 2196:WP:V 2099:talk 2059:talk 2041:talk 2027:talk 2013:talk 1982:talk 1967:talk 1952:talk 1938:talk 1901:here 1877:talk 1843:and 1816:talk 1800:talk 1736:talk 1718:talk 1687:talk 1666:talk 1652:talk 1589:here 1579:talk 1559:talk 1453:four 1427:talk 1265:talk 1103:CIS. 1075:talk 977:talk 950:talk 930:talk 909:talk 830:and 726:Iyer 541:High 436:High 162:FENS 136:news 73:and 3550:🐉( 3517:TFD 3507:😼 3262:😼 3206:😼 3037:Yes 2995:. - 2975:not 2904:😼 2868:. - 2823:😼 2593:😼 2550:😼 2478:😼 2441:Yes 2379:No, 2354:😼 2312:😼 2295:con 2292:or 2289:pro 2254:🐉( 2216:😼 2166:NOT 2164:is 2130:😼 2113:are 2085:😼 1994:: " 1921:😼 1863:😼 1783:😼 1707:: " 1613:😼 1495:😼 1416:- " 1407:- " 1398:- " 1390:- " 1382:- " 1370:- " 1362:- " 1345:- " 1337:- " 1329:- " 1321:- " 1313:- " 1303:😼 1280:to 1248:😼 1232:😼 1202:all 1085:are 1061:😼 1037:😼 1012:😼 860:Mid 754:or 630:Mid 331:Low 176:TWL 3566:: 3554:) 3523:) 3495:— 3488:, 3484:, 3480:, 3250:— 3242:) 3221:) 3194:— 3176:) 3160:) 3118:☞ 3110:— 3103:No 3095:No 3088:) 3078:No 3069:) 3047:) 3018:No 3003:) 2959:) 2944:) 2892:— 2890:. 2876:) 2848:, 2811:— 2791:) 2777:) 2751:) 2726:) 2688:) 2659:. 2617:) 2581:— 2565:) 2538:— 2530:) 2516:) 2501:) 2466:— 2451:) 2434:) 2420:No 2413:) 2398:No 2391:1 2372:) 2362:No 2342:— 2321:No 2300:— 2258:) 2236:. 2204:— 2198:/ 2178:1 2118:— 2101:) 2073:— 2061:) 2043:) 2029:) 2015:) 2007:? 1984:) 1969:) 1954:) 1940:) 1909:— 1879:) 1851:— 1818:) 1802:) 1771:— 1757:, 1753:, 1738:) 1720:) 1668:) 1601:— 1571:. 1561:) 1483:— 1429:) 1291:— 1289:. 1267:) 1236:— 1220:— 1131:if 1091:. 1077:) 1049:— 1025:— 1000:— 973:☞ 952:) 932:) 915:) 911:• 758:. 681:}} 675:{{ 201:: 193:, 156:) 54:; 3519:( 3505:¢ 3502:☏ 3492:. 3470:. 3451:. 3433:. 3415:. 3396:. 3376:. 3358:. 3340:. 3321:. 3296:. 3260:¢ 3257:☏ 3238:( 3217:( 3204:¢ 3201:☏ 3172:( 3156:( 3112:★ 3084:( 3065:( 3061:- 3043:( 2999:( 2955:( 2940:( 2902:¢ 2899:☏ 2872:( 2821:¢ 2818:☏ 2787:( 2773:( 2747:( 2722:( 2684:( 2613:( 2591:¢ 2588:☏ 2561:( 2548:¢ 2545:☏ 2526:( 2512:( 2508:- 2497:( 2476:¢ 2473:☏ 2447:( 2430:( 2409:( 2405:- 2389:x 2386:v 2383:T 2368:( 2352:¢ 2349:☏ 2310:¢ 2307:☏ 2214:¢ 2211:☏ 2176:x 2173:v 2170:T 2128:¢ 2125:☏ 2097:( 2083:¢ 2080:☏ 2057:( 2039:( 2025:( 2011:( 2001:. 1980:( 1965:( 1950:( 1936:( 1919:¢ 1916:☏ 1875:( 1861:¢ 1858:☏ 1847:: 1839:@ 1814:( 1798:( 1781:¢ 1778:☏ 1734:( 1716:( 1664:( 1611:¢ 1608:☏ 1557:( 1493:¢ 1490:☏ 1425:( 1301:¢ 1298:☏ 1263:( 1246:¢ 1243:☏ 1230:¢ 1227:☏ 1167:. 1073:( 1059:¢ 1056:☏ 1035:¢ 1032:☏ 1010:¢ 1007:☏ 967:★ 948:( 928:( 907:( 872:. 642:. 553:. 448:. 343:. 258:. 195:2 191:1 188:: 172:· 166:· 158:· 151:· 145:· 139:· 133:· 128:( 58:.

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Index