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but there are other uses bar local government, just as there were prior to 1890. Your systematic removal of all references to
Scottish counties on Knowledge (XXG) would be more easily classifiable as vandalism. Getting county categrories deleted with no discussion is vandalism. Removing county fields from Scottish infoboxes is vandalism. Continual reverting of this template to a version that is clearly broken and has your unncessary PoV commentary in it is vandalism. I have clearly pointed out in all my edits on county pages that they are no longer used for local government, but that is clearly not enough for your PoV! You would rather that all the other uses for counties were stopped too. Unfortunately, traditional geographic use can never be stopped and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having all the information in articles pushes no PoV but allows the reader to choose which piece of information is important to them. You are attemptimg to choose for the reader which piece of information you think is important to them, and that is clearly wrong.
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Because their histories have almost nothing in common before 1889. Welsh and Irish counties were created by assorted
English governments, Scots counties weren't and have quite different origins. The idea that we should ignore the seven or eight centuries of difference just because there was a period
768:
Well, when myself and others, and most people whom I know, refer to the Isle of Bute, we do say Bute. And when referring to the administrative region, we still say Bute. Not
Buteshire, Bute, as it is clearly named after the Isle of Bute. I'd say that Bute stays as the administrative region, and Isle
227:
And now the second point. What is our rationale for using 'traditional counties' over 'historic counties'. I've only ever heard mention of 'traditional' on wikipedia and on the pro-tradition websites. Elsewhere 'historic' and 'ancient' is used. What do the government call them? - perhaps Morwen will
959:
Yes, I am fully aware that the Local
Government (Scotland) Act 1889 created a uniform system of county councils with these names on a specific date, but the wording is disingenuous as it suggests that the shires themselves were created in 1890. The reality is that they all have radically different
455:
Have you read the legislation? Why are you not responding to the explicit points I have raised above? Just stating "The
Scottish counties were abolished in 1975. It is an extremely well attested fact" does not make it so. For local government purposes the counties are no longer directly used, yes,
647:
Is this dispute simply about the naming? Argyll to
Argyllshire, etc., or the naming of such entities as counties or not? This would greatly help me to determine my opinion on the matter. Because it seems to me that Argyll and Bute have (for all intentes and purposes) always been named Argyll and
618:
Counties were not "geographical areas". Counties were units of local government which serviced pre-existing geographical areas. Counties came into existence by legislation and they were killed-off by legislation - the names of the areas they temporarily served continue in use, but they were used
868:
to suggest that counties and shires only existed between 1890 and 1975. If you look at my revision, it has no such notice, and is entited "Counties and Shires of
Scotland" just to placate those that think the term "county" was invented by the LG(S)A 1889 (It clearly wasn't as there were "county
283:
I've always thought 'historic county' was a better title, as it's less confusing. Using the phrase 'traditional' county, is POV as it implies that there *is* a local tradition of the county existing, which in many places is simply not true. P.s wouldn't it be better to put this at 'Counties of
207:
I have been adding qualifiers to all these footers as there are quite a few articles that have more than one on them. For the historic counties the wording is deliberately diplomatic to only suggest they have historic origin but no mention of them being abolished (and we all know why that is).
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The dispute as put forward by Mais oui! is both the "shire" suffix and calling them counties is wrong. Clearly they *are* counties, and *can* take the "shire" suffix, as evidenced by the names of many organisations and government documents. Why is it "flat wrong" to call them
Argyllshire and
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I still don't think that that opening sentence is very good. In fact, I don't think that the template needs any explanation at all: it is much cleaner without. What I do think would clarify things for the reader though is if we change the title to "historic counties" rather than "traditional
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Bute, regardless of other things governments have tacked on or off, and that even on
Knowledge (XXG), they've been that way as long as I can remember. I recently heard that someone was trying to change them to Argyllshire and Buteshire etc., which is flat wrong. What's going on here?
733:, not of the terms found in Haansard in the 1830s! It is a clear wikipedia policy to name articles according to their most frequently-used name, and further according to their least ambiguous name, avoiding brackets in the title whenever possible. In the case of
889:
The description "Subdivisions created by the Local
Government (Scotland) Act 1889" is accurate, it's the template name that's wrong; it should match that description, not necessarily word for word, but at least acknowledging that these are a C19th introduction.
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You are deliberatly trying to present the counties as still being in existence. You persistently describe them in the present tense for heaven's sake! They are no longer extant: they are deceased. It is an underhand campaign of obfuscation and deceit. Shame on
416:
It can be seen from these two extracts that the 1973 Act abolished local government areas that were created a mere 26 years earlier. This misunderstanding is also the root cause of current edit wars, insults and accusations of vandalism on my talk page.
1201:
No no no, I wasn't saying that at all. I was merely pointing out that there are sets of things called counties across the entire of Britain. Why things need to be constantly split up into England, Scotland and Wales escapes me.
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I think it would be a very bad idea. Not only would it give the entirely false impression that Scots and English counties were in some way related and/or comparable, it would create an excessively large blot on the page.
1039:
which I believe identifies one Owain Vaughan as hostmaster for the Association of British Counties website. Certainly the same Owain Vaughan has communicated with the BBC in respect of ABC. So perhaps that explains it.
902:
The description is NOT accurate. The shires clearly existed before 1890, the only thing invented then was Ross and Cromarty. This is why I removed the text and changed the title to "Counties and Shires of Scotland".
588:
I agree with Owain. It is impossible to abolish a geographical area. The council administrations that operated within these geographical areas may no longer exist, but the geographical county areas are still in use.
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counties. That is clearly not the case otherwise they wouldn't have existed before 1889/1890. In any case there are many other uses besides local government that counties can be and currently are used for. The
769:
of Bute stay at Isle of Bute. Buteshire was the name of the county up until 1975, but no longer. Every mention of "Buteshire" that I can find is of the county whose existence was ended in 1975. Particularly
253:
indicate that the phrase "historic(al) county(ies)" has been used in Parliament over 150 times, "traditional..." 20-30 times, "ancient..." 15-20 times, and "geographic..." 3 times.
445:
The Scottish counties were abolished in 1975. It is an extremely well attested fact. The ongoing campaign to systematically obfuscate this fact is clear, disruptive vandalism. --
722:
as a disambiguation page; when people search for 'Bute', they will generally be looking for the island, not the county. In order to avoid parenthetical modifiers, listing it as
155:
Indeed? My understanding was that ALL Scottish counties were abolished in 1975. Those two became part of the Ross and Cromarty District Council of Highland Regional Council.--
820:
Government site, the first I find when searching for Bute, refers to "Argyll and Bute," with no mention of a Buteshire. Buteshire is simply not a relevent term any longer.
476:
Counties are units of local government. They were abolished 31 years ago. It really is time that you got over it. If you want to troll about the internet, start a blog.--
352:
This has broken a number of the links and is not consistent. The alternative names are listed on the respective county pages and shouldn't be mixed up in this way.
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existing immediately before that date, that is to say, all counties, counties of cities, large burghs, small burghs and districts, shall cease to exist
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It seems odd that a template for "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889", covering the period 1889 to 1973, is called
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histories and were formed at different times. The 1812 map for example shows them all, 78 years before this wording suggests they were created!
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Scotland' seem as the present name has never been officially used, and there was never any distinction between admin and historic counties.
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I think the government generally doesn't call them anything, as it doesn't have a use for them ;) But a few searches of the online
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Revisionism? Hardly. Listing the same units in the same country on the same template is not revisionism. Notice how there is an
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used as local government units between 1890 and 1975, but they have been before 1890 and continue to be used after 1975 for
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It's not supposed to be "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889", that keeps getting added by
367:
These edits have added the text 'All counties were abolished in 1975.' and were also a surreptitious attempt to remove '
186:
Right, I see what you mean. I thought that you were claiming that they still existed (in some bizarre twilight zone?) :)
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use them quite freely. Look at many Executive press releases that use counties to describe where a place is. Counties
996:
So why use the 1889 names ? There's no objective reason to prefer Xshire to X when X is (a) shorter and (b) older.
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Why not merge this with English and Welsh counties in order to create a counties of Great Britain template?
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constituencies" long before that Act). If you think my version is more generic, feel free to revert to it.
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We know that "Subdivisions created by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889" is accurate, because the
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1131:
I said it would be a good idea, but I knew there was no chance of it happening. UK regionalism rules!
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I think that would be a good idea. There is too much unnecessary regionalism in UK articles as it is.
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articles. Please desist from your campaign to use the overall template to pursue your bizarre aims. --
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935:(52 & 53 Vict. c. 50) corresponds with the list. As for it being valid much before 1889, the
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are named after them. They are widely used in postal addresses, and other geographic uses. The
413:, Scotland shall be divided into counties, counties of cities, large burghs and small burghs".
762:"It is a clear wikipedia policy to name articles according to their most frequently-used name"
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773:, the only Government site on the first page in Google. Scotland's People calls Buteshire:
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It should also be noted that Schedule 29 of the 1973 Act also repealed Section 39 of the
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Agreed. The counties issue is even more contentious in Scotland than it is in England.
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has made several changes to this particular template with the following edit sumamries:
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this is a question of useful referencing - what readers will actually search for
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I'm willing to stick with Argyll, since it doesn't mean anything else, but
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Again you are making the classic mistake that because local government was
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The local government areas referenced by subsection 5 were created by the
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Ross-shire and Cromartyshire had been abolished already in 1889 to form
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Owain: you have comprehensively lost your attempts to distort the
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a tenth as long when they were much the same just doesn't fly.
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150:"um, Ross-shire and Cromartyshire weren't abolished in 1975"
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The counties were not abolished in 1975. Section 1 of the
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site's 1806 and 1812 mapping all suggest otherwise.
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518:are based on them. Many current council areas and
395:in accordance with the provisions of this section
1147:It won't happen because it would be revisionism.
374:The footer is not the place for such information.
726:is still the simplest and most elegant solution.
534:. What evidence do you have to prove otherwise?
391:on and after 16th May 1975, Scotland shall have
315:The county footers are part of a standard set.
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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847:rather than something more accurate, like
497:on counties then local government somehow
424:that united Ross-shire and Cromartyshire.
389:For the administration of local government
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851:. Thoughts ? Explanations ? Precedents ?
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849:Template:Scotland counties (1889-1973)
710:I still think should redirect to the
619:prior to the invention of counties.--
92:This template is within the scope of
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422:Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889
411:For the purposes of local government
407:Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947
379:Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973
116:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Scotland
714:, or at the very least be moved to
409:. Section 1, subsection 1 states: "
357:All counties were abolished in 1975
38:It is of interest to the following
1180:Wow, a pressure group exists! So
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1298:Template-Class Scotland articles
937:Statistical Accounts of Scotland
737:, this simply hasn't been done.
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1303:NA-importance Scotland articles
1162:Association of British Counties
1034:Association of British Counties
1308:All WikiProject Scotland pages
1:
1269:02:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
624:21:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
594:20:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
568:16:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
546:15:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
520:Lieutenancy areas of Scotland
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468:13:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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195:15:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
178:15:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
160:14:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
119:Template:WikiProject Scotland
110:and see a list of open tasks.
1264:File:Icons-flag-scotland.png
1252:File:Icons-flag-scotland.png
436:12:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
1248:consensus knock* to Angus.
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398:(5) On 16th May 1975, all
1188:adopt their agenda. Not.
1032:Why the 1889 names? See
1004:15:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
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797:in the west of Scotland."
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344:Stewarty of Kirkcudbright
343:Kirkcudbrightshire -: -->
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643:Clarification on Dispute
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729:And let me say again,
400:local government areas
393:local government areas
339:Kincardineshire -: -->
771:Scotland's People.gov
504:Registers of Scotland
1235:of Fife my arse ;-)
1118:of Fife my arse ;-)
441:Systematic vandalism
95:WikiProject Scotland
941:Register of Sasines
371:'. Points to note:
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190:counties".--
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40:WikiProjects
29:
1186:immediately
795:until 1975,
793:"A county,
661:Buteshire?
169:, though.
1292:Categories
1231:Just so.
591:Astrotrain
508:Lyon Court
340:The Mearns
1241:you know?
1237:Just zis
1194:you know?
1190:Just zis
1182:obviously
1153:you know?
1149:Just zis
1124:you know?
1120:Just zis
1046:you know?
1042:Just zis
758:You say.
739:Stringops
724:Buteshire
691:Mais oui!
621:Mais oui!
565:Mais oui!
478:Mais oui!
447:Mais oui!
317:Mais oui!
310:Mais oui!
228:know :)
192:Mais oui!
157:Mais oui!
141:Abolition
1184:we must
943:and the
939:and the
685:and the
255:sjorford
113:Scotland
100:Scotland
59:Scotland
30:template
381:states:
1233:County
1224:(Talk)
1116:County
1107:(Talk)
1067:Merger
1036:- see
1001:(Talk)
952:(Talk)
895:(Talk)
856:(Talk)
839:Naming
823:Canaen
683:Argyll
651:Canaen
563:you.--
499:define
332:Argyll
259:(talk)
171:Morwen
36:scale.
1258:Canæn
1204:Owain
1166:Owain
1133:Owain
1083:Owain
1073:Lofty
962:Owain
905:Owain
871:Owain
718:with
663:Owain
536:Owain
495:based
458:Owain
426:Owain
348:Moray
287:G-Man
28:This
1209:talk
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818:This
735:Bute
720:Bute
708:Bute
687:Bute
668:talk
541:talk
528:were
514:and
506:and
463:talk
431:talk
387:(1)
359:and
336:Bute
230:MRSC
210:MRSC
175:Talk
102:and
1239:Guy
1192:Guy
1151:Guy
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