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possibility"; true, that's why I said I don't have a good answer. Yes, when I looked through the list of 25 articles, most are inactive, historical, proposals or drafts (but not all of them; Islam, for instance, is included in your own list.) Show/hide – do other navboxes work that way? As a practical matter, the existing Style template makes me click more than one category, because that is faster than meditating on whether the issue I have in mind is best defined as "content", "formatting", or "layout". So just seeing those headings without the subpages doesn't help me much. The "Search the MOS" field on top is preferable to the bottom; I have often argued that the entire page should direct attention to that field, with almost all distractions moved elsewhere. But it does seem likely that the other subpage discussion will produce its own means of searching them, so I think the two discussions should be brought together.
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clear to me why you repeatedly bring up the possibility that the list of MOS pages may change over time: of course it will. But that is true of all WP articles, pages, and
Navboxes, and is not a reason to deviate from the Navbox convention. Your statistic about "82 pages" is very misleading: only 57 pages are valid (the other 25 are proposed or obsolete). Also: what do you think of the "show/hide" proposal: where the main dividing bars are the existing Category links, and the user can click "show" to see the articles/pages in that topic (shown above)? --
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both worlds: Maintain the current category-oriented hierarchy, but also include many of the important MOS pages, so users can get to their destination in one click. I dont suggest using the 2008-2009 layout, but instead something more concise and user-friendly. Of course, if the template gets too large, the use of collapsible Show/Hide subsections would be employed. Thoughts? --
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the current category-oriented NavBox, that is six clicks to get to the guidline (topic A; back; topic B; back; topic C; select). Draft A (which shows all the pages without show/hide) takes only a single click. Draft B (show/hide) takes four clicks (topic A show; topic B show; topic C show; select). Thus, both draft A and draft B are superior to the current Navbox, click-wise. --
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Following your suggestion, I moved the Search field from the bottom to top in draft B of the Navbox. Regarding the situation where a user is hunting for a MOS guideline, but doesnt know which topic area it is in: Say the it takes 3 tries at subtopics before the user finds the correct guideline. In
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from
Categories. If a user wants to search for MOS articles via Categories, the user should scroll to the bottom of a MOS article, and click on the "Category: MOS" link at the bottom ... that is how Categories work. Navboxes in the upper right always list articles/pages, not categories. It is not
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I think the only answer is the category. Most of the categories don't have that problem, so a user familiar with the other links will be expecting links to categories. If a person clicks "Music" because he is looking for the dedicated Music page, he will quickly see "Music" among his choices. But if
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I don't have a good answer for "What makes think this sidebar template will be harder to maintain than any other sidebar in WP?", except that Manual of Style regulars seem completely unaware of obscure subpages. I don't understand why you included the quote, which says that the grouping of articles
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The grouping of articles by one method neither requires nor forbids the use of the other methods for the same informational grouping. Instead, each method of organizing information has its own advantages and disadvantages, and is applied for the most part independently of the other methods following
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which contains specific articles. The layout is not very clean, but at least users could get to the MOS pages in a single click. I don't see a discussion above in this Talk page that explains why the articles were removed from the template. I'm proposing to improve the template to be the best of
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I don't (or no longer) disagree much with any of that. Yes, a close reading of your quote in context says what you say it says (although ironically it could also be used to justify "the only Navbox within WP that is violating that convention"). "It is not clear to me why you repeatedly bring up the
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Maintainability is not an issue: there are many editors, including myself, willing to maintain it. You say it is "too busy", yet it is comparable to scores of other NavBoxes throughout WP, both in size and number of articles it holds. The current MOS navBox is rather odd: it contains only links
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Noleander, let me say how much I appreciate your work on this issue – and also your attention to the related matter of restructuring the Manual of Style. The RFC proposal for that has been successful (21 votes to 2), and I think early discussion between you and me did something to fill in the gaps
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could be vastly improved: in addition to pointing the reader to the MOS categories (which this template already does) it could also list all the important of the MOS-related articles. The key goal is to help readers quickly find MOS-related articles, and help them save time so they dont have to
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I've moved all the "ThisCountry-related articles" to a COMMON sub-section. I think it doesn't matter that some of them are policies and other guides, because there is no clash for any country, i.e. there is no policy about France and guide about France. Furthermore, I propose splitting them to a
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Art: The discussion at the MOS talk page revolves around converting pages to subpages, not renaming them. Questions: What makes you think this sidebar template will be harder to maintain than any other sidebar in WP? Of the hundreds of sidebar templates in WP, can you name one that lists
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The current category-based system is not intuitive. Most people expect that the links are going to link to individual pages, not categories, so if the pages aren't listed explicitly, most people are going to just assume they don't exist. This proposal is an improvement, in my opinion.
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to categories ... there are no other examples of such category-oriented NavBoxes within WP. Instead, the MOS NavBox should be consistent with the hundreds of other WP navboxes, and contain links to pages, not categories. There are hundreds of topics in WP that are indexed by
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Let's collaborate on all this. I hope you will join in at WT:MOS as we all work out what steps to take, and what order to take them in. I hope that Art will be active in that also; I think he is a serious advocate of simplicity and retrievability for the
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and to show up the desirability of that change. I remain sympathetic to your proposal here: a more detailed "signpost" would be great. But there are sore and sensitive disagreements affecting the Manual just now (as you can see from recent sections at
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I worked on making the MoS templates (Template:style + template:manual of style)match each other in terms of what they contained. They should now each contain all of the links that the other contain, and that the respective MoS categories contain.
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the guidelines and standards that have evolved on
Knowledge (XXG) for each of these systems.Accordingly, these methods should not be considered in conflict with each other. Rather, they are synergistic, each one complementing the others.
1576:(shown at right). That way the navbox would initially be small (as it currently is) but users could expand by clicking the Show button. And the Navbox would then be consistent with the other WP navboxes, by listing articles/pages. --
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visit the categories, etc. Putting the important MOS articles directly in the NavBox will help readers quickly and directly find the info they need. I'm willing to improve the template in that manner, but I welcome comments. --
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Although numbers is included in the list, it's not immediately obvious (being listed under "D" for "Dates and numbers"). For something so basic, I think it ought to have its own entry and have been bold and made it so.
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As for my contribution to the restructuring effort, I once asked why it really matters how we name the articles. The rest of you seem to have that answer better than I do, so I consider it a good time to watch.
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I fail to see why anyone reading that would somehow think the template is called "Template:Style". Not sure how you would go about it, but surely if it was a real problem there would be plenty of examples.
399:)? It's not really a problem belonging to this specific template, which is just a result of the underlying problem of too many guidelines on too many pages... it makes it hard to find certain information. -
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is in the articles 'See also' section and seems closely related. it would make sense to me if once you were on 'words to avoid', that the navbox then displayed the pages that are related so one would get:
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with converting pages to subpages, but now it says: "contain the unexamined and disorderly proliferation of guidelines ... pages can be merged (mutually, or into WP:MOS); or that some can be abandoned."
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I did not, however, alphabetize the lists, determine notability of certain WikiProject guidelines in the categories, or add some of the pages from the MoS sports categories to the templates.
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would indicate that this should be the preferred usage for "style". How'd you go about searching for prior transclusions of this template for errors of cleanup template attachment? --
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lists 82 subpages and candidate subpages. Your template only lists 55. Of course we can expect changes in the list to result from that discussion. The discussion at the MOS talk page
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completely different template. I think that some more over-specific links should join, like
Chemistry, Math, etc. Let's leave only very general and very basic stuff here. Comments? --
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1505:. So I don't know how you can list them all now. You're "willing to maintain it"? How? By listing each category every n weeks for years to come, to see if anything has been added?
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This has been live for a while without objection so it probably safe to say this is acceptable. Basically I replace links to the individual MoS to the
Categories as you see it now
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in one system (like the existing Style template) doesn't have to match the grouping of articles on other pages – to me, that quote argues against your own conclusion.
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Done :) Do you know how to edit the editnotices on a page? I tried but I don't think it worked. I would be open to that as an alternative to merging the templates
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This template is really long. Can we get some "hide/show" sections, so that pages that are primarily connected to a single aspect could display a shorter list?
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There are lots of great NavBoxes out there to use as examples, but here is one that is rather user-friendly, and fits quite a few articles in a compact space:
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has a long list of country-specific issues regarding names. Most of these are too short to warrant their own pages, but should nevertheless be included within
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2151:@Art: I'm sorry, I dont follow what you are saying. There are hundreds of Sidbar Navboxes throughout WP that contain articles/pages (not categories).
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1051:. Notice two features: (a) the use of Show/Hide section; and (b) the hierarchical layout. Both of which could be used in this MOS template. --
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a person is looking for the music samples page, clicks "Music", and is sent to the dedicated "Music" page, he will be much more seriously lost.
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in one way or another. I have taken the bull by the horns and added them to the
Regional section of this list. I trust that this is in order.
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Again, I think that is looking for a problem that isn't really there. If you can show me one example of this template being confused with
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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If the size is the major objection, a compromise would be to have a Show/Hide choice next to each section, as is shown in "draft B":
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Not seeing any additional feedback, I've moved "draft B" into the public template. More feedback and ideas are always useful. --
2693:. Pointless. Has a single person ever misused this template thinking it was for something else? Solution in search of a problem.
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regarding ways to improve searching/indexing for the many Manual Of Style (MOS) pages in WP. It seems to me that this template
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I propose to replace the current template with this new template in a few days. If anyone has any suggestions, speak up. --
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has a dedicated "Music" page. When a user clicks on the "Music" section link, where should the user be vectored: to the
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To difficult to maintain which is why I moved to the current category based system . It is also to busy , too many links
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It looks like this template used to have a fairly comprehensive list of MOS articles: here is a version from 2009
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of
Knowledge (XXG)'s policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.
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An aspect of this navbox that may confuse some users is when a section, such as "Music", (which has a
Category)
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Change the text in the button from 'Search the MoS' to 'Search the Manual'. Just to avoid the acronym. cheers --
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Two subsequent reverts - both without discussion - have prompted me to suggest a more radical change: separate
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link be in the "Related to specific cultures" section? It is very out of place where it is now. I am going to
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around the deletion notification? Right now the notification appears on pages that transclude this template.
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categories, rather than articles/pages? Why should this sidebar navbox be different? Please refer to
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If we're going to redesign it, can we change it to CSS instead of tables for layout at the same time? -
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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
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procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the
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Is it possible to have subsections appear on the list, once a main page is highlighted. For example
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571:- which I should warn you is a page where tensions traditionally run inexplicably high).--
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guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of
Knowledge (XXG) policies
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The current Style navbox is the only Navbox within WP that is violating that convention.
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be added? This list keeps getting longer... what if we start to merge some pages (e.g.
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categories and article-oriented NavBoxes ... MOS indexing should be no different. --
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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I'm sure I've seen this done in other templates, but not sure how easy it is.
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would seem to be definitely confusable with the name of this template. --
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For information on Knowledge (XXG)'s approach to the establishment of new
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Correct, especially since "show" clicks are faster than wikilink clicks.
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Thanks to Eubulides for removing the excess white space in the template.
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Done, and a few more fixes. Revert if its new length breaks anything. —
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Doesn't sound a bad idea, but you'd better bring it up there (i.e. at
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Let me know if any changes need to be made or if I was too WP:BOLD!
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the restructuring effort, as Art LaPella appears to suggest above.
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for several hours today. most of them are from {} typos like
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may not reflect the encyclopedic tone used on Knowledge (XXG)
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What should I do if I want to expand more than one section?
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and/or variations as the shortcut/s used to transclude it?
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and move it down the template, but feel free to revert me.
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Sorry Midager. Template:Style does not require a photo of
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should probably be removed as it is not part of the MOS.
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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Would you describe the changes you have made? — Martin
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after this is moved and all tranclusions replaced. --
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Took the format from another series I was working on,
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_"Related_to_specific_cultures"_sectio": -->
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (geographic names)
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2401:? I have been cleaning up
1574:Template talk:Style/draft B
1075:Template talk:Style/draft A
946:to reactivate your request.
934:has been answered. Set the
892:16:31, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
460:Related to specific culture
418:. Should i just add it? --
346:21:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
3012:
2940:05:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
2908:14:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
2885:04:43, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
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911:10:59, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
852:18:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
834:17:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
632:01:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
475:18:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
383:12:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
2726:05:07, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
2703:12:40, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
2682:06:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
2659:15:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
2625:11:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
2575:09:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
2508:09:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
2360:22:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
2344:18:46, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
2247:18:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
2220:01:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
2206:22:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
2189:17:32, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
2174:19:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
2147:21:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
2132:02:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
1586:01:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
1549:01:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
1515:01:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
1497:01:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
1478:23:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
1464:16:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
1087:21:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
1061:18:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
1043:18:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
1023:18:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
655:Wikimedia sister projects
370:18:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
360:11:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
240:
206:
155:
123:
75:Be welcoming to newcomers
2822:Please do not modify it.
2807:Any additional comments:
2787:14:23, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
2772:06:31, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
2750:14:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
2740:I'll change to support.
2489:22:36, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
2464:Please do not modify it.
2399:template:Manual of Style
2310:20:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
2295:20:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
2277:09:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
994:10:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
965:09:33, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
603:17:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
581:14:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
563:14:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
516:22:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
428:16:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
291:22:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
189:Manual of Style articles
2756:This article's tone or
866:12:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
300:Should I add the other
243:policies and guidelines
2639:as the page name with
1004:There is a discussion
878:Is there a reason why
874:Manual of Style (film)
703:Thank heaven: narrower
237:
203:
70:avoid personal attacks
1724:Article message boxes
1652:Writing about fiction
1197:Article message boxes
1151:Writing about fiction
726:Adding A Missing Page
375:And I have now added
236:
218:article titles policy
202:
2563:Template:MoS sidebar
2554:Template:MoS sidebar
2428:Parameter "expanded"
2409:, but some are from
2397:can we move this to
2064:Talk page guidelines
1728:Disambiguation pages
1201:Disambiguation pages
822:User:Gnevin/sandbox6
817:Proposed replacement
2950:</noinclude: -->
2026:Related guidelines
646:has its own entry,
2328:MOS Music category
2052:Template namespace
238:
225:awareness criteria
210:contentious topics
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111:content assessment
81:dispute resolution
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2672:is fine by me --
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1624:Anime & Manga
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1227:Dates and numbers
1135:Lyrics and Poetry
1123:Anime & Manga
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673:other subpages...
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2528:*'''Oppose'''
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2500:Sardanaphalus
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2478:No consensus.
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