1040:... It is tempting to think of Beethoven's substitute dominants as having something in common with the harmonic structures of the Romantic period, but his harmonic freedom is of a different order and nature. When the Romantic composer is not following an academic theory of form—that is, when he is not writing what he felt should be called a 'sonata'—his secondary tonalities are not dominants at all, but subdominants: they represent a diminishing tension and a less complex state of feeling, and not the greater tension and imperative need for resolution implied by all of Beethoven's secondary tonalities. ... Beethoven, indeed, here enlarged the limits of the classical style beyond all previous conceptions, but he never changed its essential structure or abandoned it, as did the composers who followed him. In the other fundamental aspects of his musical language, as well as in the key relations within a single movement, Beethoven may be said to have remained within the classical framework, even while using it in startlingly radical and original ways. ... We cannot even claim that Beethoven's harmonic licence within the classical style was a step towards the greater freedom of the Romantic generation, or that his magnificant stretching of the tonic-dominant polarity made it possible for those who followed to supersede it, or at least to bypass it. If Beethoven's daring had provided an example of such consequence, the Romantics would hardly have produced such uniformly conservative 'sonata' forms. ...
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expressive devices within disparate systems. That Haydn and
Beethoven, or Schumann and Beethoven, used the same details or worked within forms that resemble each other, implies no sort of musical kinship if the details have entirely different meanings. Meaningless resemblances between composers can be found wherever sought for. Until we know how the details work and to what purpose, comprehension can only be, not simply provisional (for that is what it is at best), but illusory. It is, of course, difficult to avoid assuming a knowledge of the larger context in advance, regimenting the details accordingly: Beethoven often appears to speak too directly for us to admit the possibility that we have misunderstood him. A little methodological false humility in criticism, however, may go a long way towards revealing a genuine ignorance.
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form was the expression of an outlook identical to the late eighteenth century's. To cite only one trait, his music often has a sententious moral earnestness that many people have found repellent, and which is presented with an enthusiasm far more typical of Europe after the French
Revolution than of the
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incredibly biased arch-leftist sources, showing
Knowledge's bias in many politically charged articles. I thought I'd make a positive impression upon you people by pointing out Knowledge's bias in favor of "reliable sources". But I guess I should've known better than to argue with a bunch of you guys.
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First of all, thank you for your contributions. I wanted to point out that there really were states that had popular votes before 1824, and there are non-"dubious" records of those votes. It would be a real shame if we lost the popular vote column on these articles. So here's what I'll do. I'll check
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That
Beethoven's musical language remained essentially classical—or, better, that he started with a late and diluted version of classicism and gradually returned to the stricter and more concise form of Haydn and Mozart—does not mean that he stood outside his time, or that his conception of classical
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Beethoven tends to misunderstand Mozart's principles even as he imitates them, just like the proto-Romantic generation he was part of. His C major concerto and early A major quartet focus more on the contrast of theme, and the Piano Sonata Op. 2 No. 2 weakens the fundamental tonic-dominant opposition
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Beethoven. I will definitely grant that his personal and political viewpoints are very much from the next generation after Haydn and Mozart, which makes itself felt in his music's emotional climate, but the key is in his forms and proportions which are certainly of a
Classical character, even as late
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that preceded it. Much of his music, too, is autobiographical, sometimes openly so, in a way that is unthinkable before 1790 if not presented playfully; it is embarrassing when historians read into the music of Haydn and Mozart the kind of directly personal significance appropriate to
Beethoven and
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Symphony, he returns decisively to this classical I–V opposition. Even when he substitutes III or VI for it (e.g. op. 53, 106, or 127), he treats it exactly like V: "they create a long-range dissonance against the tonic and so provide the tension for a move towards a central climax". It is thus in
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to the talk page. If you have a perspective, assert it. If you voice a clear objection and people revert without participating in discussion, that's something you can ask admins to help you with. Yes, it's a pain in the ass, but reverting with angry edit summaries isn't going to help you, and you
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to edit such topics here. To show such ignorance of facts and reveal that you fully believe the birther conspiracy theories simply boggles the mind. Start reading that article and what the RS say, learn, and change your mind. Always keep your thinking aligned with RS. You need to show a positive
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To begin with what may appear the larger issue—the spiritual content, the emotional ambiance of the music—would be to lame discussion from the start. It would be to risk confounding personal expression with general stylistic changes, and inevitably to muddle the different significance of similar
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to bring us back home simply by forcibly playing the tonic B in several octaves). In fact, this seems to be one of the easiest ways to tell a
Romantic work from a Classical work in this period: it is the former if the second theme feels more relaxed than the first in harmonic movement (for some
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the context of Haydn and Mozart that Beethoven is best understood, even if his viewpoints are those of a later age and he cannot completely be judged by their standards (since he expanded them so much in his "middle period" and distilled and contracted them so much in his "late period").
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I just meant to take out some over-hype about Ren & Stimpy. I didn't mean to take out that whole chunk of sources. Taking out all of them was a big mistake on my part. I apologize for that little bit of inconvenience. I just wanted to delete information of questionable accuracy.
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I tried to summarise this, but I don't believe it is possible to do any better than Rosen did originally. I've cut everything that doesn't go straight to the point due to copyright concerns (in any case, this is from five pages of a 550-page book, so I think we're fine).
690:
Hi Classical, Phil A. Fry has resubmitted the presidential headings again. If you have a specific objection, you should open a talk page discussion, otherwise you'll have no basis for reverting him again. Since you've previously expressed a problem with these headings,
1033:"The question of Beethoven's position as a 'classical' or 'Romantic' composer is generally ill-defined. ... Instead of affixing a label, it would be better to consider in what context and against what background Beethoven may be most richly understood.
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Hi, nationality is a basic parameter in that infobox, as shown in the template documentation. If you want it removed, then there'll need to be a proper reason based on guidelines and/or policies, and probably a discussion. Thanks,
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OurCampaigns, the site from which Knowledge got these vote totals. Please trust me for now when I saw these vote totals absolutely were cited from primary sources. By tommorrow night, EST, sources should be in. Thanks.
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other nineteenth-century composers. Yet it is certain that Beethoven assumed a position not only contrary to the fashion of his time, but also in many ways against the direction that musical history was to take." (
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As for Schubert's Eighth being the first Romantic symphony: certainly there are early examples of proto-Romanticism (consider the exposition of the finale of the Third, which goes to the subdominant). But with the
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the presidential-oriented subject headers. I've reverted him, but you might want to open a discussion on the talk page, since this is somewhat a matter of preference. I'm leaving him a similar note. Regards,
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guideline; you could do a lot worse, at any rate. Nope, I don't know anything about Texas Jean. On the subject of sources, do you have a better source for FindAGrave for his first wife's maiden name?
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we enter a new world distinct from even those early post-Classical imitations. Apart from Newbould's commments, I am not aware of any earlier symphony with a completely rounded first group,
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And, judging from the time difference between the two, I probably had the contributions list open in a separate window from my main one... My "mouse skills" leave a lot to be desired...
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Symphony and the C major String Quintet from the end of his life deserve the label, even if the earlier works often do not.) I'm going to summarise some of Rosen's points here.
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Also, saying I should "change my mind" to align with the "RS" and your way of thinking is a blatant assault on my psyche!
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It's not a spam section. Other Cartoon Network shows have it. It's covered in reliable sources too.
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1824:2019 Arbitration Committee elections
1756:Share your experience in this survey
1696:Share your experience in this survey
1639:Share your experience in this survey
1557:2018 Arbitration Committee elections
1484:2018 Arbitration Committee elections
1333:2017 Arbitration Committee elections
1087:2016 Arbitration Committee elections
917:List of Dexter's Laboratory episodes
2456:Regarding this thread you started:
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773:. Please review the guidelines at
14:
1767:Please take 15 to 25 minutes to
1710:Please take 15 to 25 minutes to
1650:Please take 15 to 25 minutes to
1196:Hey, they make the grade per the
980:key to Classical style (which is
826:review the candidates' statements
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2470:is worrying. It shows you lack
2324:arbitration clerks' noticeboard
2314:refrain from gaming the system.
2216:and submit your choices on the
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1745:15:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
1685:16:26, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
832:. For the Election committee,
802:Arbitration Committee election
793:ArbCom elections are now open!
548:Re: U.S. Senate 2018 elections
1:
2241:00:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2195:Knowledge arbitration process
2153:01:23, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
2107:Knowledge arbitration process
2063:00:40, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
2017:Knowledge arbitration process
1974:02:47, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
1929:Knowledge arbitration process
1886:00:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
1841:Knowledge arbitration process
1607:18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
1570:Knowledge arbitration process
1534:18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
1497:Knowledge arbitration process
1346:Knowledge arbitration process
1186:19:42, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
1161:08:31, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
1137:22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
1100:Knowledge arbitration process
869:17:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
842:17:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
566:15:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
218:Biographies of living persons
118:The five pillars of Knowledge
95:
2427:Knowledge:Contentious topics
2387:Knowledge:Contentious topics
1704:can help us reach our goal!
1383:18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
1309:18:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
1287:13:26, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
1270:13:11, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
1255:00:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
1063:06:25, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
1020:02:42, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
787:18:59, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
630:17:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
589:18:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
538:16:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
520:
88:20:31, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
1802:20:35, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
1463:22:06, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
1245:with false edit summaries?
1229:09:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
1212:15:45, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
1121:and submit your choices on
951:10:27, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
828:and submit your choices on
508:. I hope to see you there!
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1599:MediaWiki message delivery
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1442:14:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
1417:14:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
1375:MediaWiki message delivery
1129:MediaWiki message delivery
1119:the candidates' statements
834:MediaWiki message delivery
727:13:05, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
708:18:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
686:20:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
662:22:25, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
506:get advice from your peers
481:
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154:Frequently Asked Questions
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906:14:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
874:Please tone it down a bit
751:04:21, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
113:Contributing to Knowledge
2515:20:50, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
2510:
2322:you may ask them at the
2266:, a topic designated as
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2142:to your user talk page.
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1628:03:13, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
775:Knowledge:Citing sources
732:Take it to the talk page
713:Comment from Sonic100jam
29:Hello, Classicalfan626!
2495:15:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
2447:21:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2407:21:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
2358:21:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
1618:Literally who is this?
1297:the article's talk page
374:Help develop an article
183:Policies and Guidelines
1192:Re: Talk:Frankie Valli
1144:Popular Vote 1816/1820
2191:Arbitration Committee
2174:Hello! Voting in the
2103:Arbitration Committee
2086:Hello! Voting in the
2013:Arbitration Committee
1997:Hello! Voting in the
1925:Arbitration Committee
1909:Hello! Voting in the
1837:Arbitration Committee
1821:Hello! Voting in the
1566:Arbitration Committee
1493:Arbitration Committee
1342:Arbitration Committee
1096:Arbitration Committee
1069:ArbCom Elections 2016
1053:, pages 381 to 385.)
806:Arbitration Committee
214:What Knowledge is not
192:Neutral point of view
1760:Hi Classicalfan626,
1700:Hi Classicalfan626,
1643:Hi Classicalfan626,
939:opt-out instructions
853:proper justification
650:not personal attacks
396:Translating articles
301:Adopt-a-user program
269:Conflict of interest
209:No original research
2464:advocate fringe POV
1405:The Powerpuff Girls
1051:The Classical Style
810:arbitration process
769:, without citing a
642:recent edit summary
636:No personal attacks
606:Dexter's Laboratory
516:I'm a Teahouse host
319:No personal attacks
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2119:arbitration policy
2029:arbitration policy
1941:arbitration policy
1853:arbitration policy
1582:arbitration policy
1509:arbitration policy
1358:arbitration policy
1112:arbitration policy
1071:: Voting now open!
964:Beethoven, but to
929:• Join us at the
822:arbitration policy
738:this kind of stuff
644:is inappropriate.
523:Visit the Teahouse
392:Join a WikiProject
387:Requested articles
369:Be bold in editing
323:Resolving disputes
126:Your first article
38:your contributions
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332:Village pump
145:Getting Help
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1794:Sincerely,
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1399:Hello, I'm
1390:August 2018
1370:voting page
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999:Unfinished
941:. Thanks,
818:topic bans
673:reinstated
445:Talk pages
441:User pages
428:Categories
273:Notability
235:Copyrights
163:Where to:
44:{{helpme}}
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986:emotional
925:Read the
814:site bans
640:Hi, your
622:J Milburn
610:J Milburn
558:Mlaurenti
410:Vandalism
314:Etiquette
256:Vandalism
50:talk page
2502:actually
1789:Email us
1732:Email us
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1174:unsigned
1007:sforzato
646:Civility
310:Civility
130:How to:
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48:on your
17:Welcome!
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602:my edit
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436:Stubs
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