User talk:H2ppyme - Knowledge (XXG)

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injustice of this, such opinions are not the determining factor in encyclopaedic publication. Your objections to my reasoning make no reference to the policy to which I referred you, and our publication should be lead by those agreed policies. As to your suggested parallel with France under Nazi occupation, I would point out that the country remained recognised as France by the international community, and so plainly those born in that territory during those years are not German: whether they are Nazis is a matter of their political affiliation, not nationality. Consensus across the project is that an appropriate lead sentence would be "Ivar Vsevolodovich Stukolkin (born August 13 1960 in Tallinn, USSR (now Estonia)) was a swimmer (or perhaps "an Estonian swimmer") who competed internationally for the Soviet Union" I believe that it would be generally acceptable to add Estonian SSR between Tallinn and Soviet Union if you wished to, but I do not think that policy supports ignoring the country contemporary to his birth, or the national team for which he competed at the highest level.

159:- article is from the Russian language section of the site but the source and website are both Estonian (perhaps you can find the original version?). The policeman mentions the presence of ethnic Russians in the Estonian underworld, attempts to implement the 'thieves law' in the country and the presence of former sportsmen in criminal gangs (another key characteristic of organized crime in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc). Estonia is also described in the article as a major smuggling point between Russia and the EU, and no doubt the fact many Estonians learnt Russian under Soviet oppression no doubt aids such illicit operations. As for the issue of national hierarchy (which if I understand correctly the issue is highlighting Russia at the expense of the 13 other nations), I for one don't see how national pride can be an issue when we are talking about a group of murderous scum, if anything it shifts the blame onto Russia. Finally, Google results for Post-Soviet mafia gives 502,000 results whereas Russian mafia gives 2,690,000. I'm refraining from editing to see your responce! 357:! I thought I might as well explain in more detail why the chart looks like it does. Regarding your concerns about Estonia being "left out", I'm sorry, but I think you are thinking about this in the wrong way: The issue is about pure statistics and layout considerations, not about which countries were what and why. If you study the chart you will see that it is designed so that the casualty numbers are sorted; the numbers (green/red) are ascending within the Allies from Latvia to the Soviet Union, and then descending within the Axis from Germany to Italy. Why? Well, the idea was to make the largest casualty numbers (Soviet Union and Germany) "meet" eachother in the chart. Due to the fact that a line has to drawn somewhere on how many countries to list, it just happens that when you sort according to total casualty numbers, the chart will include Latvia & Lithuania and not Estonia. If we decide to add more countries, the next one would be Ethiopia and then Netherlands, Philippines, Austria etc, and 841:"As we seem to take turns calling each other idiots"??? When have I called you any name?? You were "civilized" enough to call me "idiot" on my talkpage, but I make a point of not returning the compliment. So don't accuse me of what YOU were doing... And despite the fact that you never seem to provide an appropriate answer to this argument, let me repeat it: it makes no sense whatsoever to include people in the list of state leaders who was not in control of their country. Your country most unfortunately de facto lost its independence to the Soviet Union and we cannot overlook that fact. If everyone who claims to be the rightful leader of a country would be included, the list would be endless. Following your logic most of the deposed monarchs would still be included as they usually didn't abdicate but were overthrown. So in your opinion we should still include the Monarchs of Egypt, Bulgaria, Iran, Laos, etc. to this day... 1383:

on consistent principles. So please make up your mind what principle you promote in this question - so far your only motivation seems to be to get the Estonian governments-in-exile into the list without any consideration of where that precedent would lead. You further claimed that applying your principle would only result in the addition of the Baltic states. I don't agree with that. Georgia was also independent in the beginning of the 20th century and then was incorporated into the Soviet Union - I imagine that it was against their will. So it certainly doesn't stop at the Baltics. "Someone with interest should add their respective leaders" - as I said: consistency is needed. If you would want to introduce and apply such editing principles, then you should collect and include all the other cases too, NOT just Estonia.

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since we agreed on both points, I think we could regard this argument as settled. I don't think that there could be a strong case for including people in the list of state leaders who neither held real power in a country, nor was their country independent. But let me repeat, despite my position on who should be included in this list, I believe that Estonia's Soviet occupation was totally unacceptable, illegal, outrageous, and a grave historical sin against your nation! I've read a bit about how much Estonia suffered and what destruction the Soviet Union perpetrated in Estonian society and I find it totally appalling. But as these events unfortunately happened we cannot pretend otherwise. We have to take the facts into account, however immoral they may be.

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example. Until 1971 it was accepted in the UN as the sole representative of the whole of China. Then this recognition switched to the People's Republic of China, and fewer and fewer countries recognize Taiwan since. But this (and the "one China policy") doesn't change the fact that there are two de facto independent countries which exercise control over their own territory and have their own leaders. Or take Israel for another example. Most Arab and Muslim countries don't recognize its existence, but again it doesn't change the facts. And, by the way, you didn't say anything about the example of Hawaii which I brought up. Do you 'legally' regard it as an independent state?

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history. However the name of the pages where I deleted your governmnets-in-exile from are "List of state leaders in...". Setting up and maintaining a government-in-exile in merely a political act, since those people have no real, de facto control over the country which they want to represent. And the information on those Knowledge (XXG) pages need to answer the question: "Who were the heads of state and government of the countries in a given year?", regardless whether they gained their power by legal or illegal means. So while not bringing into question the existence of the Estonian governments-in-exile, they were not de facto leaders of Estonia at the time.

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days later, then in 2002 it regained its independence. And obviously it wasn't listed as independent between those two dates. Hawaii also lost its independence to the USA as a result of the illegal overthrow of its government yet people generally don't question the status quo and don't list it as an illegally occupied territory and recognize the former royal family as legitimate leaders. And you don't seem to be interested in them or any other such country either, only caring about including the Estonian governments-in-exile, while a consistent approach and principle should be applied across the page.

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representative entity during his career. But that is also off the point. What is at issue is what is the correct description of what country Tallinn (or any other part of Estonia) was in from 1945 to 1991. It is a sad fact, but for encyclopaedic purposes, an inescapable fact, that, as you put it yourself, "of course we weren't independent". If references to places are to describe their geopolitical status at the time being talked about (the birth date of these individuals), then the historically accurate information must be given, and the inescapable fact is that during those years Estonia was,

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your edit was done on 21:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC) while the talk page history says it was done 07:31, 10 December 2013‎ (UTC). No wonder that you already reverted even if you said you would revert "tomorrow". So I don't want to discuss with you because I would just repeat previous arguments and I severely doubt I would change anything because you seem to have your own world view which is not necessarily backed up with facts (see "Estonian SSR" above). In Germany there is a saying "Der Klügere gibt nach" (the wiser head gives in) even it makes me a bit sad then the most annoying people win. --

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transfer of power is the expection, rather than the rule. So applying your principle would lead to a bizarre list of a handful of royal families, numerous countries omitted and the whole post-World War II Eastern European history erased since Communists only ever managed to grab power through revolutions, coups d'état and rigged elections. And you can easily see that such a list wouldn't be informative on who led the different countries in a given year.

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because that was the state formation that existed over that territory before. Are you really unable to make a distinction between your government's official opinion and the facts? You still haven't explanied why you demand so strongly that Knowledge (XXG) represents the official viewpoint of the Estonian government in interpreting historical facts. It's time you realized that it's the government spokesman's job, not Knowledge (XXG)'s!

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not a good source. It also says off handedly 'some people say the isle of Thule'. I could just make up a blog saying Japan could be Thule - it doesn't make it right. Unless you provide a proper source with some historical merit I am going to continue to remove it. Knowledge (XXG) is all about verifiability. I am just doing my job as an editor. You do yours and give a proper source. Remove the other sources too. They mean nothing.

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governed as such". And the fact that the present governments of Estonia acknowledge the past governments-in-exile doesn't retroactively change historical facts. You wrote about the governments-in-exile that "they were no less leaders as those, who served between 1918-1940 or 1991-present". That's not true for a fact, since they didn't exercise any control over the territory and population of Estonia at the time.

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and you want it removed, I don't think it makes sense to continue this argument anymore because there's no compromise between including a piece of information and omitting it. For me the Soviet Union won't do for preceding state, because it continued to exist after Estonia's independence plus there is a more particular political entity: the Estonian SSR, which seceded (re-gained its independence) from the USSR.

4893:. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like Germany, Italy, the Benelux countries, Iberian Peninsula, Romania, Slovenia etc, much like 3166: 5976: 5797: 5598: 5410: 5251: 5003: 4930: 1952:"I would personally add some note of it, but the question here is Estonia" - this is what I mentioned a few times. It's a rather disruptive attitude that you don't seem to be interested at all in editing these pages in a consistent, principled manner, but your sole aim seems to be that the one change you suggest should be made regardless of that happens to similar historical situations. 3270:

it is listed there and not in the occupied states section. So occupied Czechoslovakia is listed as the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the Slovak Republic, occupied Belgium is listed as a part of Belgium and Northern France, and occupied Poland is listed as General Government. By the same logic, the German occupation of the Baltic states should probably be listed under Ostland.

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and moved between the various states (for example, Caucasian criminals in Moscow), follow similiar criminal traditions (the thieves in law) and spoke (to some degree) the same language. Thus it is easier to group them together than say 'black' gangsters (which may be American, Jamaican, Nigerian, etc.) since between themselves these various groups have much in common.

3366: 5497: 4901:, sign up today and once the challenge starts a contest can be organized. This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant and also sign under any country sub challenge on the page that you might contribute to! Thank you. -- 2228:

government of Estonia officially recognizes. This is clearly unacceptable. Facts don't change because of recognition of the lack of it. And the claim that Estonia had a legitimate prime minister, but a president only in exile seems illogical. So do you recognize two parallel administrations for Estonia in 1991? One in Tallinn and one in exile?

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include leaders who got their power legally, there would be hardly anyone left in Africa. By royal families I meant for example the King of Bulgaria, the Shah of Iran, the King of Egypt, the King of Laos, etc who were the rightful leaders of their countries but were later removed by revolution or coup d'état, so not by legal means.

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leadership "what is de jure, matters". So according to this principe, you should still regard Hawaii's royal family as the rightful leaders of the country. They were removed illegally and consequently the country was taken over by the USA, obviously illegal, so according to your principle you don't recognize that either.

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in politically unstable countries). The only exception I made to this rule are the last colonial governors of Commonwealth countries who upon independence became the countries' first governor-general or president (e.g. Sir Clement Arrindell of Saint Kitts and Nevis in 1983, Louis Cools-Lartigue of Dominica in 1978)

3893:. I know this happened just recently but no administrator would close these frequent rm's down, so here we go again. This note is going out to wikipedia members who have participated in Burma/Myanmar name changing polls in the past. It does not include banned members nor those with only ip addresses. Thank you. 4683:

The thing is, in order for this to be absolutely consistent - it should be done for Latvia and Lithuania as well, but it seems the tides have changed in the opposite direction for these countries. But I do have to confess that there have been numerous and very heated debates on this issue and the end

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I'm that person and that's the reason why I'm asking you this. Check the edit summary. So this consensus (wherever it is...) applies to Estonians only? That's all I needed to know. In my opinion, you can't erase history, whether someone recognized the occupation or didn't, but that's just my opinion.

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Regardless of the de jure situation, Estonia was in reality part of the USSR - the USSR controlled it, it sent members to the Soviet parliament, its sportsmen represented Soviet national teams. We do not say that people born in Taipei since 1948 are born in the People's Republic of China, despite the

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I realize that the Baltic states were occupied from 1940 on, but the "Occupied States" section on the list is not supposed to be a list of every single state which is occupied during a given year. It's only a place for states which don't fit anywhere else. If an occupied state exists in another form,

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I made no such comparison at any point. Neither would I need to. A head of state is whom the given state's constitution recognizes as such without reference to any other state's leader. One head of state's constitutional powers don't have to match that of another one. I really don't see where you got

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I agree. As I explanied my understanding on my talkpage in the discussion with Termer, the Republic of Estonia as a legal entity survived (evidenced by continuing international recognition and operating embassies), but Estonia the state practially lost its independence (the supreme authority over the

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Estonia's occupation and merger into the Soviet Union was illegal, there's no question about that. But during our endless discussion it became apparent that it's a question of principle and maybe national honour for you to refuse to recognize facts when they contradict the version of events which the

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Let my try to explain again the inconsistency of your attitude concerning the examples I brought up. You said that only legal changes of leadership should be acknowledged (in questions of leadership "what is de jure, matters"). So according to this after a revolution or coup d'état we should continue

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you categorically stated that in your opinion in questions of who is the leader of a country "what is de jure, matters". But when I demonstrate what bizarre consequences your approach leads to, you just generally claim that the examples I bring up, "don't apply"?? As I said we should be editing based

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Editorial consensus: if you actually read my comment, I said "I'll have to look around to see what is the editorial consensus" on the matter of WWII governments-in-exile. I didn't say you and I are at a consensus. Though actually so far you've taken up to topic of trying to treat Soviet Estonia as an

1247:"Now I have a problem with only until 1940 too" - surprise, surprise... This whole chain of messages started with you disagreeing with what I did and almost everything I said subsequently, or if you accepted something than immediately you changed the subject slightly and turned to some other question. 1180:

Concerning your last argument: yes, representation is an important function of a national leader, but representation only doesn't make one a leader. So people without any real power claiming to represent a non-independent country just don't fit a list of state leaders, however strong legal, moral and

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You may have misunderstood what I had said about Africa. What I meant was that in Africa free and fair elections and peaceful transfers of power are the rare exception. Usually it's rather military dictators overthrowing each other or winners of civil wars grabbing the presidency. So if we would only

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You raised the question of international recognition as an important factor in differentiating between the status of occupied countries. Obviously recognition is a vital element of conducting foreign relations, but even international recognition or the lack of it doesn't change facts. Take Taiwan for

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It shouldn't be mentioned because none of your sources are verifiable or academic sources. Its some claim on your part for what reason I don't know. How do we what those books say. The claim seems to be very against the grain of the rest of the article. The one source that I read you give is a blog -

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I don't think you understand what you are talking about. It is a historical fact that the country they were born in or died in was Estonia. The fact that it was illegally occupied by the Soviet Union is irrelevant to mention. Same goes with all illegally occupied countries during World War II and it

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I considered it but thought that it would create too long lines for one person and would make the list unnecessarily complicated and reduce transparency. In addition to changes in country names and political entities, often the title a leader bore also changed during their time in office (especially

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Again considerations of government recognition supplanting facts. Despite the fact the Estonian SSR didn't come into existence legally and despite the fact that the current Estonian governments don't recognize it as such, the Estonian SSR was on the practical level predecessor of present day Estonia

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existed until 1934, which makes it a difficult issue whether to add it or not. I would personally add some note of it, but the question here is Estonia - which had a government in exile until regaining independence. Estonia was occupied during world war II, but not liberated. Now please show me some

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But anyway, since we agreed that the people we are talking about neither had any real power, nor was Estonia independent at the time, I don't think the question of whether they should be included needs more discussion. If there is no independent country to lead and they weren't exercising any power,

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As I said we should apply consistent editing principles across the pages. So if you want to contribute to the list, please do so consistently, regarding the whole of the list. If you would manage to get a consensus to include governments-in-exile, then you should dig up all of them and put them into

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For better or worse the term "Russian mafia", albiet innaccurate and misleading, is a blanket term used for criminal groups coming out of the former Soviet Union. The term 'Post-Soviet organised crime' might be more accurate, but is not nearly as widespread. In any case, these organisations operated

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Regarding consistency, what do you reckon how many Baltic people have birth places set to Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania? I'd say it could be around 25% - 90% of Estonians + a few Latvians/Lithuanians. Obviously, you gain sort of a ground for consistency when a couple of people change and regularly check

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You removed the Estonian SSR link from the comment regarding independence. It became apparent to me that your every argument, insistence and explanation serves only one purpose, to remove any reference to the Estonian SSR. However this is exactly what I wanted to put in there. Since I want it there

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So what? Why is that relevant? Knowledge (XXG) shouldn't stick to governments' official opinions. If we did, than Taiwan wouldn't exist - according to Beijing's view, and the Communist leadership in Beijing wouldn't exist - according to Taiwan. We should try to concentrate on what actually happened

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does matter, but where have I questioned the legality of Hawaii being part of USA?? If the current government should recognise Hawaiian monarchs as current leaders - they should be added. In this case, they obviously don't - nor does any other country in the world... With your following argument, I

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ad 2) According go my understanding the general rule is that only independent countries feature in these lists, but there is an exception made for countries that were occupied and liberated during WWII. Regarding Hawaii: you keep shifing your position. Previously your opinion was that in matters of

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I don't see why the existence of any international organization would influence (or justify?) the annexation of a country. And as I've said a few times, the illegality of Estonia's annexation doesn't change the hard fact that it lost its independence to the Soviet Union. Hawaii: obviously it hasn't

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A country losing its independence and getting it back later isn't an unprecedented event. For example an independent Serbia existed until 1918 and then regained its independence in 2006. The same with Montenegro. East Timor declared its independence in 1975 and was forcibly annexed by Indonesia few

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I deleted your additions without any explanation? If you look into the history tab of the pages where I deleted the Estonian governments-in-exile from you will see that every time I gave the proper reason, namely that governments-in-exile shouldn't be included since they weren't in control of their

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I personally have no issue with your additions to any article, since fact-based, constructive contributions are most welcome, actually that's what Knowledge (XXG) is built on. However your position on this issue seems to ignore the historical facts. The illeglal Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe

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Most articles about Estonians having been born in that era have "Estonia" as their birthplace, due to the international community not recognizing the Soviet occupation of the country. Also, you should rather ask the person, who changed the long-held status quo in June - I merely corrected the same

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For the links you provided: I don't see any consensus, it's mostly you (and a few other editors) against a few other editors. Each side repeats its arguments with no consensus at all. I'm not really sure what I should think about the about the timestamp of your edit (A mistake? Purpose?) It claims

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About using the Estonian government's data. As I said I don't question the basic data (e.g. person's names and dates of office), but to recognize the government-in-exile as the country's legitimate leaders is a matter of opinion and principle. And while it's legally correct, it doesn't reflect the

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independence was only a theoretical and moral matter since for 51 years it was practically part of another country and governed as such. Often the facts of life overwrite legal and theoretical considerations and official recognition. It was in illustration of this that I brought up the examples of

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Your original question was why on earth did I dare to delete Estonia from the List of state leaders pages. During the course of our discussion you agreed that the government-in-exile "did not have any real power in Estonia" and that it was the case of "Estonia de facto losing its independence". So

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As I see on your talk page you've already had a very similar argument with someone else. So let me just quote your previous respondent: "the historically accurate information must be given, and the inescapable fact is that during those years Estonia was, de facto, part of the Soviet Union, and was

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Once again, your reply seems to be trying to tell me why the policy that I referred you to is at fault. You will have to take that up there. I can only reply that your edits are not in keeping with that policy, and as such should probably be reverted. Good luck if you wish to subsequently argue

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Regarding the comment in the 1992 list: I added such a "silly note", that bothers you so much, to everyone who took office before their country attained independence, and I inserted such a note into every year's article until such a person was in office (except in the very year the country gained

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Sorry, Mart Laar's government really wasn't interim. I'll correct the link to Republic of Estonia, but I want to include a link so people can access info about what happened before independence. Rüütel was in office until 1992 by which time Estonia did regain its independence. Why do you think he

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ad 1) As I said even international recognition doesn't change facts. Arab countries' lack of recognition of Israel's existence doesn't undo it. And vice versa, international recognition of Estonia's independence didn't make Estonia independent. A government-in-exile and its recognition only means

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Dear H2ppyme! Yet again I have to take issue with some of your statements. You said that "they were the leaders of THEIR STATE". Since they weren't leading Estonia or any other country, they cannot be regarded as state leaders given the factual realities of the time. As I've already said the fact

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The people in question were indeed born in Estonia, but at the time of their birth Estonia was not recognised by the international community as an independent state, or as a country as marked by the top level of governmental organisation. While I can well appreciate the strong opinions about the

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The Red Army was a single entity, its casualties should be with the USSR. The readers of the table will see total Red Army losses in the USSR total. When the readers bore down to the footnotes of Estonia and the USSR they will see that x number of Estonians were in the Red Army total. This makes

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As I see it, the question is quite easy. Was Estonia an independent nation? As you yourself admitted, Estonia de facto lost its indepenendence (for 51 years). Was the government-in-exile Estonia's "political leadership"? As you yourself admitted, they "did not have any real power in Estonia". So

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is equivalent to asking "Did Soviet Estonia recognize the Estonian govenment-in-exile?" Which is clearly absurd. But according to the editing principle which you suggested - which would result in the inclusion of Estonia - the new regimes of Iran, Laos etc shouldn't be included. It's a fact that

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Dear ZBukov, you intentionally contradict facts and bring up totally different examples to not include Estonia. You said that they belong to the Governments in Exile list, but who said they must ONLY be included there? By that logic, every State leader should be included ONLY in their respective

1600:. By the way, its my pleasure to inform you that the examples I mentioned (Bulgaria, Iran, Egypt, Laos) ARE current and recognized states... The year when their last recognized monarch was deposed by revolution or coup d'état (so by illegal means): Bulgaria 1946, Egypt 1953, Laos 1975, Iran 1979. 987:

Also you have failed to respond to my argument that sticking only to legitimate transfer of leadership - which you insist should be the supreme principle - would mean that most political leaders of the Third World wouldn't appear on the lists. As I said in Africa for example peaceful, legitimate

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My compromise would be to leave Estonia within that grouping, but rename it. If it is named "Russian mafia", Estonia doesn't belong there. It could be either post-Soviet mafia or mafia in Eastern Europe or something like that, since the terms are wider. Russian mafia implies mafia in Russia (and

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Whatever agreement this refers to, it was clearly made by people living in la-la land. Like it or not, anyone born in what is now Estonia between 1940 and 1990 was born in the USSR. I can quite understand why people don't like the fact that the country was occupied, but the fact is that it was.

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It seems you are amazed by me for several reasons... I try to strike a balance between standard wording but correct titles. For reasons of consistency I tend to use "interim Prime Minister (or President of the Government or Chairman of the Council of Ministers)" for heads of government who only

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Concerning how long I think Estonia should feature in the list of state leaders, I have to admit that in going through the pages year by year I haven't yet reached World War II. When I do, I'll have to look around to see what is the editorial consensus on whom to include and how. Looking at the

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Concerning adding the dates to the "List of state leaders" pages: Thank you for your willingness to improve the articles, but such minute details as the exact dates of time in office should properly be included in the articles about each country's leaders (for example the "List of Presidents of

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The problem is that we have to be consistant. These men were in the Red Army, not the Estonian Army. The Americans had foriegners in its Army but they were US soldiers not Estonians Germans or Mexicans. I knew a German citizen who was a US in the B-17 crews of WW2 he was an American soldier not

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I keep asking you the question which you haven't managed to answer so far: Why should be automatically take over the Estonian government's opinions?? And by the way what you keep referring to as "facts" are rather opinions and interpretations! I didn't question the fact that the members of the

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You have already demonstrated an ill-tempered and sometimes uncivilized style of argument during our earlier discussion, so I regard this one as just the latest example. As far as contribution to listing state leaders is concerned you should just look at every single List of state leaders page

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Firstly, the nationality of somebody's name or their ethnic origin is not at issue here. I did not suggest that Stukolkin was a Soviet swimmer, but that he competed for the Sovit Union, which is plainly true. He did not compete for Estonia at top international level, because that was not the

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means. What I contest is how relevant it is in this case since the facts were contrary to the de jure situation that was recognized. You keep shifting your position in order to make Estonia appear as a different case from anything else that happened in history. As I said Georgia was partially

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I don't question the fact that there was an Estonian government-in-exile during the country's illegal occupation by the USSR. And since I'm Hungarian I come from a country which itself suffered the barbaric brutality of Soviet agression and we also had governments-in-exile during parts of our

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Obviously I'm conducting no plot to omit useful information. But since the people you want to add were not leading any state and the country whose legitimate leadership they claimed wasn't independent, they definiately don't belong to the "state leaders" list. It properly belongs to the page

4396:, where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with 2780:

I made a point of including former colonies' colonial names too (e.g. Gold Coast for Ghana), for reference. So the fact that the Estonian SSR wasn't independent is not a problem. Puppet state? Yes, but most Eastern European Communist countries can more or less be regarded as puppet states

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ad 5) North Korea was and continues to be an independent country. By the way I don't necessarily agree with Kim Il-sung's inclusion in that list. However the people you want to include satisfy neither of the two: they were neither present/at large, nor was their country independent.

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independence because then there is a note about that below the country name). This serves the purpose that when someone looks at it, they will know that for example the person may have been in office for 20 years, but only served as an independent country's leader for 5 years.

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Estonian government-in-exile lived and even acted in such capacity. Where I disagreed with you is whether they can be regarded as state leaders - and that's a question of interpretation, no facts. And you are the one who kept denying that Estonia lost its independence while

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should apply afterwards too if the countries remained illegally occupied like Estonia did. More than 99% of all noteworthy people born in Estonia during that time have just "Estonia" in their Knowledge (XXG) infoboxes. The ones you are defending are the fringe exceptions.

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You may not have noticed but the question about Soviet Estonia's recognition of the government-in-exile was a rhetorical one to illustrate how illogical your original question ("DO THEIR CURRENT GOVERNMENTS RECOGNISE HISTORICAL MONARCHS AS THEIR CURRENT DE JURE LEADERS")

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Do you have any data on the Estonian, Lithunian and Latvaian partisan casualties? I do know many Estonians were deported after the war to the Gulags. Some fled to the west, my dentist as a child 45 years ago was one these Estonians. She escaped on a small boat to

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on July 13, 1969. So where exactly was that international community that didn't recognize Estonia as an independent state at the time? Following your logic, people born in France during German occupation, the infobox would need to say that they were born in Nazi

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article. This user put it back it until finally a registered user reverted his POV editions for the time being. Could you check and if necessary warn this user, and that he/she does not add POV remarks that often contradict the sources he/she adds. Thank you.

2014:? Only morally and in constitutional theory but not in real life. And I stand by my view that when facts and de jure considerations come into conflict, we have to stick to the facts in order to represent the world as it really was, not how it should have been. 1052:

matter now, I would think the most logical approach would be to include Estonia until 1940, when it was invaded, because unfortunately it wasn't liberated at the end of the war, so its loss of independence became the permanent status quo for the next 51 years.

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Hello, H2ppyme! I'd like to call your attention to the WikiProject Germany and the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I hope their links, sub-projects and discussions are interesting and even helpful to you. If not, I hope that new ones will be.

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wasn'the was representing an independent state? And I maintain that the Estonian government's official viewpoint is an opinion and should not be substituted for the facts. Why do you want to turn Knowledge (XXG) into the Estonia government's bulletin?

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is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

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If the template is not actually the same as the other template noted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page explaining how this one is different so as to avoid any future mistakes

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by one of your fellow revisionists. As I noted there, wartime is different to peacetime situations (and that is a different argument to the USSR/Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia), but if it was a recognisable entity, then I have no problem with using it.

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prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the

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situation is a matter of law and legality, and recognition is a political act which doesn't change facts. So if something is recognized it doesn't make it legal and vice versa (e.g. Kosovo's independence and subsequent recognition despite

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Also, one of your points was to have birth places set as "Estonia" for people who have anything to do with the country after the end of USSR. Well, I wouldn't list hockey players Valeri Bobkov, Sergei Varlamov and Leo Komarov among them.

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recognized before being incorporated into the USSR. You argued for de jure succession of leadership as a principle, but you want to avoid facing the consequence of having to recognize Hawaii as independent and recognize its royal family.

4897:. For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. If you would like to see masses of articles being improved for Europe and your specialist country like 194:, but that page is so full of shit that taking issue with the naming should be the least of an editors concerns. Anyhow, to answer about other editors I am Nicknackrussian but usually am too lazy to login :) 17:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC) 2176:

And I continue to find it unhelpful and disruptive that you just push for the implementation of your personal view and assessment of Estonian history without any regard for consistent and principled editing of the pages in question.

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to acknowledge the previous, deposed leader because he lost his power through illegal means. So if the abolition of the monarchy in Iran, Laos etc happened illegally, than the subsequent leadership has been illegal. So your question

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No. As you may or may nor be aware some states (for example some Communist countries did in the past) decide to designate the head of their parliament as their head of state. It only depends on the constitutional setup the country

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sense because readers will be able compare the Red Army losses to other nations. The article as its stands now does the job of listing total Red Army losses and giving the readers the details by Soviet Republic in the footnotes.--

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the list, not just Estonia. Now that there are close to 200 independent countries, it would bring chaos if people would only contribute to the entry about their own country forgetting about the consistency of the rest of the list.

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While I have no problem with "Estonia was an occupied country" I doubt that "its independent status was widely supported in the free world". But at this is an argument that I could at least accept (in contrary to the following

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decent FACTS or REFERENCES that only countries that WERE liberated can be added to this list. Otherwise, it will stay YOUR personal opinion, which most of your arguments are based on. And I don't keep shifting position. What is

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Why are you "completely opposed" to mentioning the Estonian SSR as the predecessor of Estonia? That was the political entity (albeit not independent) existing over the same territory before the Republic of Estonia regained its

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those regime changes happened and - in my opinion - it's therefore correct that they are included in these lists regardless of the legality of the regimes change and of regardless of the new regimes' international recognition.

3946:"Estonia is also a distinct geographical term, while the SSR is a political regime, which is totally unnecessary in the infobox." And please do not imply that I'm 'trying to push the "Estonian SSR"' when it is clearly wrong. 3741:

is having a POV agenda against Estonia and everything Estonian. For example I reverted his POV "editions" (his/her own personal comments which are not the same with the sources he/she adds) about Russians in Estonia in the

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As I've already said that difference between the cases of Norway and Estonia is that the latter remained occupied and annexed into another country (the Soviet Union), while Norway was liberated. So it's not quite the same

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because it is an unused duplicate of another template, or a hard-coded instance of another template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

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You have a point there, I will put in Head of State instead of President. However it would be nice if you could transcend your pathetic level of debating culture and stop insulting me only because I dare to disagree with

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After reading the first paragraph of your last comment I was surprised to find that you reverted my edit on the 1991 and 1992 pages yet again. Given that and the warning we both received, I had to refer this matter for

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I agree. And after you drew my attention to this, I changed the heading in the 1992 article from "president" to "head of state" to accomodate the fact that while Meri was president, Rüütel was "Chairman of the Supreme

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This barnstar is awarded to everyone who - whatever their opinion - contributed to the discussion about Knowledge (XXG) and SOPA. Thank you for being a part of the discussion. Presented by the Wikimedia Foundation.

2497:) names Rüütel as such. If it turns out that in fact it was someone else, I'll remove Rüütel because heads of parliament per se (if they aren't also heads of state or government) are not to be included in these lists. 5840: 5641: 5453: 5291: 5043: 4970: 3938:

Yes, what's wrong with that? Either all biographies should list the the place as it was named at the time of birth or as it called now. Consensus is to use the historical name, so "Paris, German occupied France" is

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However much we dislike the fact that Estonia was occupied, the link to the Socialist Republic of Estonia needs to be added, so that people know what entitiy existed there before Estonia regained its independence!

4400:. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request 1757:

independent throughout the occupation - Estonia is still the very same state that it was prior to WWII. You say "non-independent country's government-in-exile", I say "government-in-exile of an occupied country".

609:, part of the Soviet Union, and was governed as such. To state this is not to take a point of view on whether the occupation was legal or moral, but merely to reflect the state at that time. Somebody born in 4804:

Hi. I see you are listed as a member of a WikiProject of a Baltic state. I was wondering if anybody who actively works on Estonian, Lithuanian or Latvian articles, would be interested in launching your own

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I added total deaths of the Baltic states from 1940-53 to the footnotes of WW2 casualties. I have many reference works with data on world conflicts. If you ever need data please don't hesitate to send me a

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means.) You did write that in your opinion in questions of leadership "what is de jure, matters". But when I bring up examples of illegal regime changes, your reply is that those governments are currently

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You may be Estonian and thus know more about Estonian history, but you seem to be pushing an ideological opinion which disregards and dismisses facts on the bases that they aren't officially recognized.

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I definiately don't like to be insulted just so that you "get the heat up or something". You should limit yourself to generally accepted ways of behaviour and seek excitement elsewhere. You should check

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We have both stated our opinions several times and I maintain that I don't think a country that practically lost its independence and leaders that weren't leading the country should be added to the list.

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regained its independence, but according to your POV it should still be treated and reported as an independent country because its annexation was illegal - that's what your approach inevitably leads to.

6238:. You are indefinitely blocked and are also banned by the community from all edits concerning pre-1991 Estonia, broadly construed. The respective bans can only be lifted by consensus at a noticeboard. 804:

that Estonia's the current governments of Estonia regards them as the rightful leaders of the country is merely a symbolic and political act and doesn't change history retroactively.The fact that they

5824:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 5625:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 5437:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 5275:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 5027:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 4954:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 2279:"The fact that Estonia lost its independence (your "fact") and the fact that the Republic of Estonia continued to exist on many levels (my "fact") are parallel facts, one doesn't refute the other." 1907:

Israel, Taiwan and deposed monarchs. But I believe that in order to reflect what the world's political leadership actually looked like in a given year, we have to stick to the facts when facts and

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I tend to follow historic facts, whether I like it or not and I don't like anything related to USSR or Russia for that matter, but history is history. Thanks again for some kind of explanation. –

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correct, regardless of the legal situation. However, given my past experience with dealing with nationalists on these kind of matters, I realise that reality has little basis for decision-making.

6158: 6151: 6143: 6139: 5810: 5611: 5423: 3128:- of course I concede that the Soviet republics (which in Estonia's case was illegally created in the first place) had very little real autonomy, but the Soviet Union definiately wasn't a 1736: 4535:

compromise that means there's no consensus. All in all, I'm leaving this matter to someone else and won't edit Müürsepp's or for that matter, any other Estonian athlete's birthplace. –

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You still haven't answered my question: in your opinion who was the Estonian SSR's last head of state, and who was independent Estonia's head of state in office between 1991 and 1992?

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Historical revisionism like this only serves to damage Knowledge (XXG)'s reliability. I know you won't care, but one day I hope you are ashamed of your attempts to airbrush history.

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The phrasing of the list as it stands might be a bit misleading, so I can put in some notes which makes all this clear to the reader. ("For this state see this section" or whatever)

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You have made many edits today to the place of birth of people born in what is now Estonia, but was at the time of their birth part of the Soviet Union. You should be aware of the

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It's a bit pathetic how you seem to be treating this issue are a personal battle where you think you have to humiliate me in order to maintain your prestige in your own eyes...

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for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. - inclusion of new material without references - --

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Regarding pointless argument: feel free to seek other people's opinion whether a non-independent country's government-in-exile should be included in the state leaders list.

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Linking is ok, there isn't much mention of Estonia anyway. And I don't mind Estonians taking part in Russia, I got bothered by Estonian mafia being a branch of Russian mafia

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You said "the rightful leaders, who headed their government, should be included". The members of the government-in-exile were NOT leading Estonia! They weren't even there!

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country, which wasn't independent anyway. And as for the open discussion which you also claim to miss, you only need to look a few lines up to see my previous comments...

2554:. But if the Federal Republic came straight after Nazi Germany, than I would definiately link them in the same way as I did with the Estonian SSR and Estonia. Just like 4688:. However for the time being, all parties sort of agreed that whatever was the case for an article for a long time - it should remain so for the foreseeable future. 2294:

Most historical events are the results of a longer process, but still they need to be tied to a point in time. So what's your problem with naming one particular day?

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Finland"). No-one would put in the exact dates to every leader in each year, and with only a few dates provided the article would just look inconsistent and untidy.

4191: 669:. Other than the communist countries, there were only Austria, Argentina, Bolivia, Japan and Sweden that didn't recognize the independence of Estonia. Please see 1745:

was surprised you still don't understand my point: again with Bulgaria, Egypt etc....DO THEIR CURRENT GOVERNMENTS RECOGNISE HISTORICAL MONARCHS AS THEIR CURRENT

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in 1998 would have to be described as having been born in Indonesia: their brother born in the same house in 2003 can be said to have been born in East Timor.

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real life facts. And I'm not willing to omit the real life facts (Estonian SSR, Rüütel, loss of independence, etc) for the sake of theoretical considerations.

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that the country in question SHOULD be independent - but in fact it isn't. By the way, a few countries did give de facto recognition to Georgia's government.

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Many state leaders weren't democratically elected either, and Communist leaders in many independent countries also practically represented Moscow back home.

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Say, do you have data on the Baltic partisans that were fighting against the Germans & the Soviets. They should be in the Baltic nations military box--

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It does not mean that everyone who feels they have de jure right for leadership, should be added - only the de jure leaders of current recognized states

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In my opinion it would be an insult to include Red Army deaths with Estonia. The footnotes tell the readers that Estonians were in Red Army Casualties--

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I think the fact that you are questioning my depth of knowledge suggests that this discussion is even more pointless than I had previously imagined.

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to Knowledge (XXG)! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

5698: 4894: 4810: 5168: 4393: 3809: 5376: 2637:"And don't you think that it would be OBVIOUS to check the local government list of leaders, when talking about leaders of an independent state" 6215: 6169:. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor. 6030: 4309: 4085: 4014: 6096: 5559: 5096: 4851: 4768: 4723: 4568: 4513:

As the issue over the Baltic birthplaces of the Soviet era is controversial and last time the general debate ended without a compromise. The

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You have shown interest in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that you've added some links pointing to

547:? I am not doubting them as such, but this article is in dire need of better references, and so any new material certainly needs them. 135:

2) Estonian mafia mostly works within Estonia and other foreign states, but not so much in Russia, so the connections aren't so strong.

3824:. For that, please cease in changing the POB, as they did not become an independent nation until 14 years after the player was born. ( 3817: 160: 92: 6162: 1749:

LEADERS?? I think not - so I don't want to add them, you don't want to add them, can't we stop bringing these examples up?? You mean

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I have no intention to race and try to catch up with you in sarcasm or insults. Civilized, respectful behaviour will be just fine.

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Please do NOT add the governments-in-exile! They weren't actually leading their countries so they should NOT feature in the list!

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If you have moved it to mainspace, you may want to clear it out. Otherwise, you may want to move it - it looks quite useful! --

3532: 3511: 3485: 3458: 1155:"Saying that they shouldn't be included because they weren't de facto in control of their country is clearly POV". What is POV? 670: 5833: 5634: 5446: 5284: 5036: 4963: 4323: 4194:). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4141:). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4088:). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 3702: 3663: 3195: 34: 5086: 4848:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4765:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4758: 4720:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4565:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 4558: 4431:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 3991:. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. 470: 6095:

For that little outburst I've revoked your talkpage access, consider yourself fortunate I didn't up your block to an indef.

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on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out

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revision. What consensus are you referring to? Please show it. And does it include Estonians only or everyone else also? –

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Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.

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It would be nice if you would omit such uncivil comments like "Can't you see that you are the idiot in this issue??"...

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created loads of governments-in-exile and including all of them would just clog up the "List of state leaders" articles.

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Can you show me that consensus about players' birthplaces? Because I couldn't find anything regarding that matter. –

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi, thanks for your work. Please note that on en.WP we don't normally link years, dates, or commonly known terms.

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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:H2ppyme_reported_by_User:FkpCascais_.28Result:_.29

3213:. You should stop doing this and instead continue discussing the issue and I urge either of you to take this to 3190:. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a 567: 29: 22: 5215: 3758: 3278: 5910:

Gee, I wonder why 99% of these people have "Estonia" in the infobox? Does it have anything to do you with you

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1) Different states, it creates a sort of hierarchy of independent countries, when labeling it "Russian mafia"

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compromise existed for this article because it had been so for years, until you changed it without a debate.

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You participated in a Burma RM in the past so I'm informing you of another RM. I hope I didn't miss anyone.

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No worries. Thank you for revising the article title to reflect the new name instead of the old one. Should

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at the time of their birth Estonia was not recognised by the international community as an independent state

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I'm afraid I can't agree with this statement. It's also apparent in the name: Estonian Soviet Socialist

2431:"If you think that his power was like those of the other communist Chairmen of Supreme Soviets, then no" 480: 3583: 3170: 2586:

So what? I'm not here to please you. By the way at least this way you "get the heat up or something"...

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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited

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and get an (or some) outside opinions on the dispute. As I commented on a closely related issue on

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I do not want to get involved myself but if the edit war continues I shall report you both to the

2410:"Estonian SSR can not be in the same link with Estonian Republic, therefore this will be removed." 5504: 4818: 4473: 3894: 3411: 3342: 3319: 3255: 3247: 3230: 366: 333: 571: 4821:. If there is interest we can move this to a project somewhere and set something up, thanks. -- 6086: 5984: 5960: 5883: 5778: 5744: 5579: 5391: 5349: 5234: 5192: 5116: 4871: 4788: 4743: 4588: 4454: 4249: 4217: 4164: 4111: 4058: 3973: 3853: 3738: 3732: 3432: 3420: 2010:

without an independent state and without holding any executive power how could they have been

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and sort the column "Total deaths" by clicking the arrow button in the heading. My regards, --

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This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect.

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Could you please stop changing people birthplaces to "Estonia" even if they were born 1976.

3496: 3346: 3323: 707: 683: 498: 487:, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks and related articles. Thanks! 5832:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 5825: 5633:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 5626: 5445:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 5438: 5283:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 5276: 5035:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 5028: 4962:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 4955: 3579: 3571: 3548: 3370: 3306:}}, which explains why a cut-and-paste move is undesirable. Further, the naming convention 1812:"Otherwise, it will stay YOUR personal opinion, which most of your arguments are based on." 6239: 6001: 5149: 4762: 4610: 4264: 3587: 3556: 711: 5928:

And you are actively pushing a pro-Kremlin counteragenda to a well-established practice.

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An automated process has detected that you recently added links to disambiguation pages.

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Okay, so who do you think was the Estonian SSR's last head of state? The rulers website (

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fact that most countries recognise PR China and the One China policy, because it is not

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These men died to impose Soviet rule on Estonia, they were not fighting for Estonia. --

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requesting that it be speedily deleted from Knowledge (XXG). This has been done under

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