782:, I'm am worried about the amount of discretionary judgment required of a COI editor choosing what material to cut from a section about a product her employer sells, even if she does it on request. I don't think it was appropriate for a more established editor to make the request, but I would also ask you, and your fellow employees, to decline such requests in future, as I think that such work is very likely to damage the neutrality of the encyclopedia and the trust that can be placed in it.
920:. HLHJ, for the next time, I suggest you propose all changes on talk first, with existing text, suggested replacement, reasons for the change, and sources. I suggest you do this one small change at a time. If you do not, then I think you could find that arbitration enforcement sanctions will be requested, and could likely exclude you from the topic area altogether. Consider this a free drink at the Last Chance Saloon; the next one will not be free.
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involvement, considering even the person who asked for my input felt I had recommended to cut too much. I am still trying to find the balance of providing specific recommendations that don't take a lot of time for editors to implement while not providing overwhelming information, as the other Sarah (below) kindly put it. In the future, whether my input is requested or not, I'll work to be more considerate about how (and if) I give my input. Best,
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525:, I totally agree that the IQOS section is too long compared to the other ones. I'll create a sandbox page for the IQOS section, and then point to that sandbox page to make my recommendations. It won't be a new draft like you just implemented, just a convenient place to host the suggested text changes. Working on it now, and I hope to get my recommendations on the talk page by the end of the week. Best,
459:. The debate about PMI and the researchers should not be moved to an etymology section. It is not about etymology. It is a disagreement about smoke versus aerosol. I am concerned about your recent comments on the talk page. You stated "I do agree that there is no consensus in the media on whether IQOS produces smoke or not. However, smoke is the contested term, not aerosol."
1060:, thank you for your support. I acknowledge that I am still learning that the changes I don't expect to be controversial can become controversial by virtue of my COI and the industry I work in. It has never been my intention to overwhelm nor to impose judgement on the articles, and I will continue working to improve my relationships with my fellow editors. Thank you again
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1403:, and at some later point you were moved to the "Inactive members" section because you hadn't been active on Knowledge (XXG) for 6 months or more. I see you've been active recently, so I thought I'd make you aware of this. Feel free to move yourself back to "Active members", maybe freshen up your signature... Perhaps we'll see you around on the
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the section was removed, I'd be willing to move it forward, and would take care of the technical aspects of the move. Please leave me a message on my talk page if you have made these changes, so that I can launch the technical process. It should take roughly 1-2 days after start of this process for the article to be published.
332:. I think it was a deadlink before you edited Knowledge (XXG) yet you made a proposal on the talk page using the deadlink. See "On the question of whether Philip Morris International demonstrated that the product reduces the risks of diseases associated with tobacco use, the panel voted 8 against and one abstention."
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Therefore, if you feel you ought to have a presence here, it is in your and
Knowledge (XXG)'s interests that you restrict yourself to requesting factual corrections. Examples of factual corrections would be noticing that the name of the CEO had been misspelled, or that the location of the head office
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You were put in a rather unfair position. I'm not sure I'd be willing to say that you are entitled to make any suggestion that you are asked for, though. If you are asked to make suggestions in matters of judgment where you have a strong COI, I think recusing yourself would be best for the quality of
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The gist of my concerns rely entirely on the product comparison tables in the "Models" section, that are very close to tables that one might find on an online product page. Given the history of paid contributions, and the subject matter, I can't approve the article in this state. That being said, if
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and adds mass failed verification content to multiple articles. Check other nicotine articles they have edited. The problems continue with a certain editor. I don't think that editor should be allowed to continue to cause problems on multiple articles, especially when they are unhappy. They are also
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to the HNB talk page because I hoped it would spark discussion, including input from yourself. Unfortunately, some of the changes were implemented before everyone joined the discussion. If I am asked for a suggestion, it seems only fair that I be allowed to give it - as long as others have a chance
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but now easier to implement compared to the requests I made in my original ("A few minor changes"). The language is now different from your draft with the possible exception of where it matches the current article's language. Several of the references are ones I added after we discussed your draft.
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a
Wikipedian - you are obligated to pursue Knowledge (XXG)'s mission first and foremost when you work here, and you are obligated to edit according to the policies and guidelines. Editing Knowledge (XXG) is a privilege that is freely offered to all, but the community restricts or completely takes
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allows administrators to impose discretionary sanctions in relation to some of
Knowledge (XXG)'s most contentious topics. One of those topic areas is electronic cigarettes. I'm therefore posting an alert below to make sure you know about this. The alert does not imply any wrongdoing on your part.
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In that context, then, I fully agree with your statements about how an editor should behave when they have a COI. My first time editing
Knowledge (XXG) may be as a paid editor, but my experience so far has also shown me that I enjoy contributing beyond my COI articles. For example, I've enjoyed
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I'd consider "entitled" to be the wrong word for what I am trying to express. I fully agree with you that the amount of control I should have over this article is minimal, considering my COI. I can see now why the length and level of detail of my recommendation would be considered as too much
668:; ahead of your obligations to your employer. You should not advocate for changes that violate our content policies; please be very cautious about asking, and especially about repeatedly asking, for removal of negative information that is well sourced. This is not appropriate. (see also
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You copied the citation (Chambers, Sam) from my draft. I formatted the citation in my draft well before you started editing
Knowledge (XXG). The citation in the article is different than in the draft. You also copied other citations from my draft I added to my draft before we ever had any
1340:, are you asking for my opinion on specifically the material that was added in the linked diff, or on the idea of splitting IQOS into its own article? I'll be happy to provide my opinion on the article talk page, but just want to be sure I speak to the points you're asking about. Thanks,
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That's tricky, because the company will only highlight developments that are in the company's interests. This whole issue is so contentious that the adoption of a conservative interpretation of "factual correction" is highly recommended. People who want the latest news from Philip Morris
256:^ Chambers, Sam (26 January 2018). "Big Tobacco spending billions to develop products that could move industry beyond cigarettes — but regulators are skeptical". Chicago Tribune. This citation has been a deadlink for well over two weeks. How did you make a proposal on the talk page
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I think there is a strong case to be made for HLHJ being excluded from directly editing this topic area. The lengthy history of failed verification content edits advocating an idealised form of anti-tobacco is at odds with common practice, places HLHJ firmly on the wrong side of
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My proposal is just a proposal, it doesn't have to be implemented as written. I assumed that more content would be kept than what I was proposing, and that my proposal was a starting point for discussion. Happy to continue to discuss my proposal on the talk page. Cheers,
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of cases in which journalists noticed that companies had tried to influence
Knowledge (XXG) content in their own interests, including by writing sandbox drafts. These situations made the companies and Knowledge (XXG) look bad. The more contentious the issue, the worse it
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Understanding the mission of WP, and the policies and guidelines through which the editing community realize the mission, is very important. There are a whole slew of policies and guidelines that govern content and behavior here in
Knowledge (XXG). Please see
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This topic is not contentious and no evidence has been presented it is a contentious article. Check the archives of the heat-not-burn tobacco product article and you will find an editor waiting my time and others for months. There is an editor who appears to be
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Hi James, thank you for your quick welcome! As I mentioned elsewhere, I intend only to provide suggestions here and there on any PMI-related pages, and possibly improve my editing skills on a small number of unrelated articles I'm interested in. Cheers
820:, thanks for your message. I didn't choose what material to cut from the article, I made a suggestion and clearly stated it as such. It was the more established editor who does not have a COI that chose what material to cut from the article. I posted
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I never told you can copy content from my draft and I never told you could try to have someone else to make the changes from the content in my draft. There was also pieces of the draft you copied that I worked on before you edited
Knowledge
712:. Could you please give me some context for why you've posted this comment? I appreciate both the positive feedback and the constructive feedback, and I'd like to better understand where you're coming from on your statements above. Thanks,
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It's also important not to take up a lot of volunteer time. The best position for you is to restrict yourself to requesting the correction of factual errors, but otherwise to leave matters of judgement to the volunteer editors.
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Paid editors must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep discussions concise. When proposing changes to an article, they should describe the suggested modifications and explain why the changes should be made.
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489:. I would be happy to respond to comments about that article/talk page on the appropriate talk page. If you would like to get my attention for comments you post there, please ping me in your post on that page. Thanks!
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for an overview of what
Knowledge (XXG) is and is not (we are not a directory or a place to promote anything), and for an overview of the content and behavior policies and guidelines. Learning and following these is
221:, my apologies. I didn't realize that I would be unable to use the specific content that we were working on together if it was hosted on your draft page. I have also responded to the discussion on the
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You claimed "He also told me that he was not willing to make the changes we had just discussed to the Heat-not-burn tobacco product page, but I could try to have someone else make the changes."
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wasting a lot of my time explaining to them the content they want included fails verification. If it weren't for me the heat-not-burn tobacco product article would still be a train wreck.
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was largely written by me. I had to start a RfC because an editor was against me removing failed verification content and other problematic content. That's grounds for a topic ban if true.
199:. Please do not copy content from my draft and make proposals on the talk page using content from my draft. Also do not make proposals on the talk page based on my draft. You are not me.
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My note above is a general note. Company reps sometimes are under the mistaken notion that disclosing and not editing directly are all they need to do, but even within that framework,
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You also wrote "The existing content about this debate could be moved to the lede or to the etymology section, but the rest of the article should use a neutral term rather than smoke."
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contributing to articles on
Project Cleanup as I learn my way around things here. Not only is it in my PAID interest to remain in good standing with the community, but it's in my
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You have refused to acknowledge there is any problems with the examples presented above. You are wasting my time. I am busy gathering diffs in my e-mail folder just in case.
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For the reference you mention (Chambers, Sam) - that reference is what is currently in the article. My proposed revision actually removes the dead linked reference. Best,
991:. Given the contentious nature of articles about that company and its products, it's important to stick to the spirit and letter of the guideline. In particular, see
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In addition, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation (see
1766:. This is a fantastic rating for a new article, and places it among the top 3% of accepted submissions — major kudos to you! You may like to take a look at the
1662:. This is a fantastic rating for a new article, and places it among the top 3% of accepted submissions — major kudos to you! You may like to take a look at the
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Without deleting any of the current content do you have any suggestions for organizing the content or making minor changes to the wording for improved reading.
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to give input. I am perfectly happy to ask on the talk page that my suggestions be discussed by the wider group before any changes are made as a result. Best,
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410:). Copying bare references (cherry picking) does not even require attribution. That is only consistent for a project that builds on unrestricted content. --
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Please identify where you feel my current request infringes on your draft and how you propose the request be changed. I am open to possibly making changes.
406:. Everyone can use and modify Knowledge (XXG) text to his heart's content, especially within Knowledge (XXG) itself, provided he attributes it correctly (
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I trimmed the section. Pleas redo your proposal based on the 4 paragraphs such as organizing the content. Your proposal is cutting way too much content.
1559:. This is a great rating for a new article, and places it among the top 21% of accepted submissions — kudos to you! You may like to take a look at the
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You wrote "Hi HLHJ, thank you for making some edits in response to my request, and I can understand that you prefer not to include text I've drafted."
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Please be aware that working within the conflict management process is a baseline for being a member of the editing community in good standing.
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1270:. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
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People who want the latest concise information on PMI's IQOS product can visit Knowledge (XXG) and also get an article written independently.
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I could take a look at it, but if you don't mind I would prefer to post my suggestions on the talk page there, not here on my talk page.
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Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Knowledge (XXG)! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.
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Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Knowledge (XXG)! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.
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Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Knowledge (XXG)! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.
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I started a draft of the current IQOS section. You can copy the draft and my comment to the talk page or you can edit it in my sandbox.
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International can visit the company's website. When they visit Knowledge (XXG), they expect to find articles written independently.
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I agree that this is an unsuitable location for this discussion, as it is not visible to other editors working on the article.
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Understood. I've written up my thoughts at the talk page. Hopefully they're clear enough without meaning to vote on it. Best,
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Hi Sarah at PMI. Thanks for disclosing that you work for Philip Morris, and for following the COI guideline and PAID policy.
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Also please note that editing for the purpose of advertising, publicising, or promoting anyone or anything is not permitted.
359:"Big Tobacco spending billions to develop products that could move industry beyond cigarettes — but regulators are skeptical"
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template. Post it on the talk page and make your suggestion underneath it." COI editors are allowed to make edit requests.
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According to what part of COI paid editors must restrict themselves to requesting the correction of factual errors?
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The IQOS section is a bit long. If you have any suggestions what can be cut please leave a note on the talk page.
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and you are making requests using content from my draft without my permission. That is a copyright violation. See
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I know you have a COI as a paid editor, however if you don't mind is it okay if you can reflect your thoughts on
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You copied the citations from my draft and you made proposals based on my draft that is very similar to my draft.
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important, and takes time. Please be aware that you have created a Knowledge (XXG) account, and this makes
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Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to
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Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to
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Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to
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interest to do so as well. I continue to welcome your feedback on how I'm doing in that regard. Cheers,
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Hi, I'm that editor. Let's continue discussion of my editing at my talk page, where I have replied.
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Another type of factual error is updating old content and new developments. Do you agree, SarahSV?
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Smoke is the contested term by PMI. This debate started with PMI contacting the researchers.
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49:(COI). Editors with a COI may be unduly influenced by their connection to the topic. See the
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topic area. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called
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This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect.
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I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at
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I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at
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articles about yourself, your family, friends, company, organization or competitors;
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that privilege away from people who will not edit and behave as Wikipedians.
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You are also obligated to follow community policies and guidelines for content
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You stated "My proposed revision actually removes the dead linked reference."
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I said above "Also do not make proposals on the talk page based on my draft."
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Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now
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page ("Specific Changes Requested"), every change I've requested there is
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without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to
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without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to
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without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to
909:. HLHJ, you added an image of a pizza that was unrelated to the article.
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Hi Sarah, thank you for acknowledging that you're a paid editor for
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If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider
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If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider
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If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider
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What e-cig article they showed interest? The IQOS is not an e-cig.
1027:. "If you propose changes to an affected article, you can use the
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imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
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right here? I'd just like to see your view/opinions, Thanks. --
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that we add the views of Philip Morris International's CEO, or
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If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the
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If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the
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Mostly whether or not to split, and if so potentially
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You'll find some links below that explain the system.
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to your organization's website in other articles (see
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Hi Sarah, thank you. In particular, you should avoid
167:copied content from my draft without my permission
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72:on the talk pages of affected articles (see the
1084:Conflict-of-interest editing on Knowledge (XXG)
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8:
487:talk page for Heat-not-burn tobacco products
1399:Hey there! At some point, you signed up at
1258:For additional information, please see the
1243:is in effect. Any administrator may impose
907:Talk:Electric_smoking_system/Archive_4#Pipe
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1770:to see how you can improve the article.
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59:for more information. We ask that you:
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457:I do not support the policy violations
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961:. This is more evidence. Good luck.
289:Looking at my latest request on the
171:Knowledge (XXG):Copyright violations
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45:on Knowledge (XXG), you may have a
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1815:Thanks again, and happy editing!
1758:The article has been assessed as
1711:Thanks again, and happy editing!
1654:The article has been assessed as
1608:Thanks again, and happy editing!
1551:The article has been assessed as
1056:, thank you for your advice, and
959:WHO does not call them cigarettes
357:Chambers, Sam (26 January 2018).
126:The editor who uses the pseudonym
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693:Good luck and thanks again.
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447:. I explained it on the
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328:Your proposal uses the
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1392:Invitation to re-join
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18:User talk:Sarah at PMI
1800:Articles for creation
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1210:arbitration committee
521:Thanks for the note,
57:FAQ for organizations
1237:Electronic cigarette
47:conflict of interest
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197:copyright violation
161:Copyright violation
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1324:—Preceding
90:WP:DISCLOSE
1489:. Thanks!
1487:Draft:Iqos
1472:Draft:Iqos
1452:. Thanks!
1450:Draft:Iqos
1435:Draft:Iqos
1394:WP:cleanup
1076:suggesting
1023:See under
993:WP:PAYTALK
670:WP:PAYTALK
345:References
82:template);
1788:help desk
1764:talk page
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1412:PJvanMill
1289:QuackGuru
1266:decision
1251:, or the
1245:sanctions
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441:This edit
385:QuackGuru
266:QuackGuru
261:dead link
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28:July 2018
1506:Cheers,
1454:Greenman
1312:this RfC
1262:and the
1227:It does
751:personal
728:WP:PRONO
259:using a
225:. Best,
86:disclose
1760:B-Class
1656:B-Class
1613:Acebulf
1553:C-Class
1510:Acebulf
1493:Acebulf
1326:undated
1276:SarahSV
1155:unhappy
1133:SarahSV
1103:SarahSV
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732:WP:NPOV
118:WP:PAID
100:WP:SPAM
39:welcome
1087:looks.
736:Jytdog
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253:(XXG).
1306:Query
666:first
1822:talk
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