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have a country or a territorially delineated speech community. But the reach of
Esperanto-based culture is worldwide. It is not immediately visible to people who do not know Esperanto and do not read Esperanto publications. For better or worse these publications are printed on paper or are behind the paywall, hence not readily available online. Elstara Agadao is not 'just a university distinction,' but the most important distinction granted within the Esperanto language community. Selimi's Esperanto translations of the best modern Albanian-language literature makes it available to readers around the world. Hence, the global notability of his work among Esperanto-speakers is permanent and going to last. Furthermore, it often leads to further translations from Esperanto to Korean, Japanese or Hebrew. This helps to popularize little literatures in relatively unknown languages such as Albanian. Should you wish, I can dig up Esperanto-language reviews of Selimi's translations to support this claim. Obviously, such references will lead to printed sources. However, if you think that in line of the policies it would not add to much, I will not bother. PS. I will be available for more discussion (if needed) after Sept 7, 2019.
939:. I have not analysed all the sources, but the ones below represent about half the citations in the article and I'm not inclined to give it any more effort. It's reasonable to expect something significant early in the article, but that is not the case here. The only source that seems to be worth anything for GNG is the Issuu article, and even that is uncertain. Even accepting it on good faith, that alone is not enough. If someone wants to suggest specific sources that are worth looking at, I'll reconsider, but I'm not doing any more research.
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than anywhere else, because until 1992. B Selimi wrote two handbooks of
Esperanto for Albanian-speakers. He also strongly contributed to the development of the global Esperantist culture by translating the works of leading Albanian writers and poets into Esperanto, yielding almost 20 volumes and counting. On top of that he authored over 600 articles for the world's leading Esperanto monthly,
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663:. Esperanto culture is unusual in this that it does not have any speech community of native speakers attached to it. Hence, many more books are translated into Esperanto than originally authored in this language. However, the influence of such translations is felt all around the world, given that Esperantists are active in practically every country on the globe.
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Given I gave you the only source I could find, and you did not use it led me to believe it is not the same person. All you have done is used primary sources (as far as I can tell), but to establish notability non primary sources are needed, if you cannot even find one (in 30 minutes of being told to
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If you want to change the
Knowledge policy on notability you are in the wrong place. That would be done at a policy discussion venue, but would be an exceedingly difficult thing to do. In the meantime, no one is going to care that you disagree with it. However, you have a very poor grasp of what
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I also have to comment on the issue of competence. You cannot demand that only editors competent in the subject should decide. Knowledge doesn't work that way. It is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, and by extension, anyone can take part in discussions and decisions. It is for those who
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have taken note of those achievements. Rather than writing walls of text on the Selimi's achievements, it would be really helpful if the author could point to just a couple of sources that they consider to be both reliable and have substantial coverage of Selimi. I will do my own analysis of the
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Apart from that, B Selimi singlehandedly restarted the
Esperanto movement in postcommunist Albania.Infamously, in the Third Reich and the communist countries of the Stalinist type, Esperantists were imprisoned and sentenced to death, the use of Esperanto was banned. In Albania, as well, and longer
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But, the notability of a personality does not depend on their family history, but their own achievements. (Although, so little is known outside
Albania about everyday life in communist Albanian, that these bits of information may also be of a broader historical and sociological interest). B Selimi
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Thank you all for the discussion and analysis. I learned a lot about the procedures that guide editing in
Knowledge. However, I still disagree with the understanding of notability as basically meaning 'noted by the world,' that is, in the sense of anglophone or online sources. Esperantists do not
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Yes, it was only 30 min before
Slatersteven called for an improvement, and then slated this article for deletion. It is not a good practice. There is no Knowledge document providing improvement must be done within half an hour before the proposal for deletion is applied. Meanwhile I worked on the
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With his 6 books
Bardhyl Selimi has strongly contributed to the development of postcommunist culture and literature in both, Albania and Kosovo. On top of that with almost 20 translations from Albanian to Esperanto and Esperanto to Albanian he made the writings of numerous Albanian novelists and
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On the other hand, just 30 minutes between the proposal that an article should be improved and how, on the one hand, and the move to delete it, on the other amounts to creating a hostile environment. Such an environment is not conducive to collaboration or any improvements on an article in
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In the span of 30 minutes, you forwarded me with 4 notes on how to improve this article, and then with the notice for deletion. Is it not a bit rush? Articles based on sources from multiple languages take a bit to mature, especially if the aforementioned languages are not too well known or
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I wonder whether you know
Albanian and Esperanto languages and cultures. I see no articles of yours on these fields. Hence, I propose that any notability concerns in this regard be adjudicated by an editor with a command of both languages and with a good background knowledge of the
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Regarding the references, yesterday (Aug 21, 2019) I provided many more. Obviously, some -- especially regarding his family history -- were authored by
Bardhyl Selimi. It is only natural that a person's autobiographical writings may serve to establish the details regarding her/his
707:? Are they considered to be sufficiently notable on account of being US citizens and translating Japanese literature? Is Albanian literature somehow worth less than its Japanese counterpart, or translations into Esperanto may be deemed worth less than translations into English?
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is supported by a single reference only, and that actually it is a dead link. Furthermore, the bulk of this article (paragraph 2) is not supported by any reference. It hinges solely on internal links to other Knowledge articles. I see similar problems with the article on
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I disagree that proposing an editor -- knowledgeable of Albania, Kosovo and the Esperanto movement and with a working knowledge of Albanian and Esperanto -- amounts to 'accusing anyone of incompetence'. This is a good practice that prevents hasty decisions, which may be
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Hence, if the perceived failures of the article on B Selimi are so great that merit its deletion, I propose that before deleting it, first of all you should consider deleting the aforementioned articles on Philip Gabriel and Jay
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actually is. We do not reject non-English sources or offline sources. Nor do we reject sources behind paywalls or printed sources. But to support notability they must be independent, reliable and have significant coverage.
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On top of that B Selimi also translated some literature and historical works from the Esperanto into Albanian, importantly adding to the development of culture in Albania and Kosovo, until recently the two poorest states in
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gave to B Selimi in 2013, is a clear recognition of his work for Esperanto language and culture. Yes, there is no Esperanto country, but books and works are produced in this language for consumption all around the world.
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wrote and edited two books regarding modern Albanian-Kosovan history. His two highly popular textbooks of mathematics rekindled a widespread interest in this important field of knowledge both in Kosovo and Albania.
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If the decision on this matter is not reached until tomorrow (Thur, Aug 22, 2019), I propose to postpone it until after Sept 9, 2019. Basically during this period I will be absent from my desk on a vacation with my
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Accusing people of incompetence, whataboutism (that isn't even well founded, as checking the sources on those articles will reveal), promotional agenda pushing to make known unknown stuff, and applying
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poets available in Esperanto and vice versa. This achievement should be lauded and made known to reserachers and interested parties at large around the world.
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As I informed yesterday, today I am off to my vacation. Will be back to the desk on September 9, 2019. I request a delay in any final decisions until then.
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In light of the aforesaid, you are inexplicably biased and combative. Hence, let us have a competent third editor to decide on this piece and its merits.
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look for them) that raises doubts in my mind they exist. Notability means that they have been noted by third party RS (and the article is two hours old).
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757:, supported just with 2 references. One of them is dead, and the other is autobiographical in its character, being an interview with the translator.
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This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using
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that garner successful results at AFD. Where are the sources that document this person's life and works in depth? Where are the works
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Some say that translating literary works is not a sign of notability. What then about Knowledge's articles about such translators as
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I do not know about what primary sources Slatersteven is talking about, apart from the statute of the Albanian Esperanto Association.
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subject matter experts. And to do it now, not after you come back off holiday – it's unlikely this will be held open that long.
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That is the purpose of AFD, to allow more eyes to look and decide. I did not nominate this for speedy deletion for that reason.
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This AFD is not about them so any argument to ut ratio is irrelevant. We base each article only and solely on its own merits.
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going on here. To repeat what others have said, it is not what Selimi has done that establishes notability, but how much
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B Selimi's work for Esperanto culture was recognized with an Elstara Agadao. Comparatively speaking, it is like the
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originated by the subject? A random pointer to Google's cache, that does not even work, is not a source citation.
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If people's dates and places of birth unsupported by citations bother Slatersteven, I'd propose s/he may start with
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would defend the article to make an argument for keeping that is convincing to editors who are
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On the same basis, you cannot be seen as competent to judge whether the sources are 'dubious.'
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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development of this piece all the day yesterday. Please, have a look at the article's history
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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I found one source (which may not be the same person). Article relies on primary sources.
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sources, but right now I am at delete based on what has been written in this discussion.
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Basic facts may be ok, but sources about themselves need to be treated with caution
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417:- Per nominator. Subject lacks independent detailed coverage in reliable sources.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight
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Source is not accessible, but unlikely since this is not an autobiography
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I see here some myopia of judgement at best, or double standards at worst.
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Can't get a translation, but subject is mentioned in several paragraphs
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PS. Somehow it escapes Knowledge editors' attention that the article on
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Have a second look at the references, as I added more. The award
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
808:) in this respect. What about Philip Gabriel and Jay Rubin?
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No notability rests on some having noted you, please read
321:) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this
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All it says is that he gave a lecture at the university
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UNIVERSITETI I SHKENCAVE TË APLIKUARA NË FERIZAJ article
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Academia freely allows upload of papers without review
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --
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519:this person? Who wrote them? Where are the ones
72:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1381:). No further edits should be made to this page.
393:Note: This discussion has been included in the
373:Note: This discussion has been included in the
353:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1279:Probably reliable, appears to be a news agency
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375:list of Albania-related deletion discussions
355:list of Authors-related deletion discussions
133:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
395:list of Kosovo-related deletion discussions
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996:The source is a site promoting Esperanto
45:For an explanation of the process, see
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41:deletion review on 2019 September 14
1181:Subject's own bio page on the site
804:Indeed, due weight is a guideline (
1052:Publiisher has no online presence
432:Dear Slatersteven and Meatsgains,
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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547:eo:Diplomo pri Elstara Agado
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676:for the Esperanto movement.
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507:are not arguments based in
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108:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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509:Knowledge:deletion policy
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1371:Please do not modify it.
515:this person rather than
281:represented in the west.
61:Please do not modify it.
969:Significant coverage?
307:Note to closing admin
106:Articles for deletion
1271:Authored by subject
1148:, probably reliable
1089:Authored by subject
1042:Authored by subject
973:Count source toward
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1261:trojetshqiptare.net
452:William Shakespeare
1234:Probably reliable
278:Dear Slatersteven,
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725:Sincerely,
604:Sincerely,
227:free images
575:Sincerely
505:notability
420:Meatsgains
1375:talk page
964:Reliable?
755:Jay Rubin
697:Jay Rubin
629:Dear All,
597:Dear All,
567:question.
429:Objection
399:Shellwood
379:Shellwood
359:Shellwood
284:Sincerely
66:talk page
1391:Category
1377:or in a
1349:Spinning
1337:Hyrdlak
921:Spinning
887:RoySmith
877:Relisted
834:Hyrdlak
783:Hyrdlak
587:Hyrdlak
481:Hyrdlak
319:contribs
186:View log
127:glossary
68:or in a
1327:Hyrdlak
1163:Partial
1127:article
955:Source
824:Hyrdlak
773:Hyrdlak
737:Hyrdlak
727:Hyrdlak
686:Europe.
639:family.
616:Hyrdlak
606:Hyrdlak
601:family.
577:Hyrdlak
525:Uncle G
471:Hyrdlak
441:fields.
311:Hyrdlak
298:Hyrdlak
288:Hyrdlak
233:WP refs
221:scholar
159:protect
154:history
104:New to
937:Delete
890:(talk)
771:Rubin.
661:Monato
563:wrong.
415:Delete
205:Google
163:delete
79:delete
1354:Spark
1146:Issuu
926:Spark
703:, or
513:about
248:JSTOR
209:books
193:Stats
180:views
172:watch
168:links
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1341:the
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901:IDHT
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241:FENS
215:news
176:logs
150:talk
146:edit
84:Tone
975:GNG
916:not
521:not
454:or
323:XfD
255:TWL
184:– (
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