729:
contained an
Appendix running to over 25,000 words, revealing many little-known facts about Gower's associates. This was considered too long for publication but it referred to numerous officers whose later careers showed Gower's influence and support. As the lives of many of these officers are little known today, rather than delete this data, I offer it here for the benefit of readers of the book and for the wider naval history community." So no editorial review, so its just a blog and cannot be regarded as a Reliable Source.
748:(I'd say merge too - if there was anything to merge) to HMS Defence. I'm not seeing "Significant coverage" and as WP:STUB says "If a stub has little verifiable information...it may be deleted or be merged into another relevant article.". I'd say this was pretty close to "Delete"- what is he known for apart from losing a ship and nigh on 600 crew - but I'm feeling generous today.
728:
Copying this over from the Talk Page: The book is presumed to be reliable, the website isn't as it hasn't undergone any editorial review even if it was created by one of the book's authors. Ian M. Bates the webpage owner (not David Bates as you claim in the book reference) states "My draft manuscript
550:
But the book's subject is Gower not Atkins who gets listed under "associated people" (because he served under Gower) in what looks like an appendix; is it
Significant coverage? Adding more sources to the article that say the same thing, when the thing is just "Atkins was captain of the Defence when
798:- I think standing consensus is that an established expert (such as an author with a peer-reviewed published book) can have their self-published (i.e. blog) material in the related field treated as reliable. Niehorster's website is often used for Yugoslav ships in this way. -
816:
In this case, having assumed it's reliable as a source, would you say it counts as a second different piece of coverage that counts towards the SIGCOV threshold or lump it together as something like an e-version of the book , or appendix to the book?
205:
466:, Captain David Atkins were ordered to attend her.." which just proves that Atkins was the Captain of the Defence and gives no other details, hardly SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to meet GNG and just confirms the
442:
They were visible to me. The Clowes/Mahan books is available on line for free in its entirety. It was published in 1900. And even if they aren't visible to you, so what's your point?
199:
282:
166:
139:
134:
143:
707:
Being discussed on the article talk page. I think the sourcing question is independent of this AFD discussion, and I am not suggesting it is outcome determinative at all.
565:
Exactly right. Its not clear that the Atkins information is even contained in the book. Meanwhile 7&6=thirteen you have added a couple more blogs which also aren't RS.
462:
My point is that Users can't assess the sources if they can't see what they say. Using another computer I can see a preview of Clowes/Mahan and all it seems to say is "and
126:
267:
892:
252:
98:
916:
Most of the article's content comes from just one source, the only thing that is well sourced - for some reason with six citations - is him dying when the
113:
130:
672:
A book and an explanatory website are perfectly reliable sources. Lack of a page number is not disqualifying. They should be read in tandem.
220:
187:
934:
Agreed all the detail now comes from Bates' webpage, while the one event that he is known for is extensively sourced. Still fails GNG.
93:
86:
17:
943:
929:
910:
883:
842:
826:
807:
790:
774:
757:
738:
722:
682:
646:
628:
610:
596:
574:
560:
541:
526:
blog. You were complaining that you couldn't see the contents of the other books. You get to see a lot of content in this source.
497:
479:
457:
437:
419:
392:
353:
335:
317:
289:
274:
259:
244:
122:
74:
68:
181:
633:
As noted on the
Article Talk Page the Ian M Bates reference is not a Reliable Source as it is a blog by one of the authors of
177:
107:
103:
601:
Update: Google books had Volume 27, January-July 1812 p44 has a brief mention of the loss of the St George and
Defence.
964:
227:
40:
903:
876:
787:
715:
616:
534:
450:
412:
349:
313:
584:
193:
925:
822:
753:
624:
606:
592:
556:
960:
897:
870:
838:
803:
784:
709:
528:
444:
406:
36:
865:
770:
345:
309:
695:
637:
providing information not included in the book and so has not been subject to any editorial review.
510:
939:
734:
642:
570:
475:
433:
388:
331:
213:
587:
at the end of Vol 28, but I can't find Atkins elsewhere in the that volume, he may be in others.)
921:
818:
749:
620:
602:
588:
552:
368:
53:
679:
494:
82:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
959:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
834:
799:
861:
857:
401:
372:
301:
237:
766:
580:
371:
the ship that he captained when it was lost. He lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary for
523:
467:
376:
935:
730:
638:
566:
471:
429:
384:
327:
59:
691:
506:
305:
286:
271:
256:
241:
160:
583:
is a contemporary journal, (archive.org seems to have many of the volumes (eg
765:
to HMS Defence, per GraemeLeggett the cited sources completely lack SIGCOV.
341:
891:
Note: This discussion has been included in the
Article Rescue Squadron's
428:
Atkins is a blog and the two books you have added aren't visible online.
833:
I'd consider it a companion to the book for notability purposes. -
676:
Champion of the
Quarterdeck: Admiral Sir Erasmus Gower (1742-1814)
635:
Champion of the
Quarterdeck: Admiral Sir Erasmus Gower (1742-1814)
491:
Champion of the
Quarterdeck: Admiral Sir Erasmus Gower (1742-1814)
615:
Update to update
Archive.org delivers a better scanned/index of
955:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
585:
here is one of the sailors accounts of the loss of
Defence
853:
156:
152:
148:
212:
283:
list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions
240:. Seems to be an unlucky, but normal ship captain.
226:
783:to HMS Defence as Atkins lacks SIGCOV on his own.
470:nature and why this should redirect to the ship.
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
967:). No further edits should be made to this page.
281:Note: This discussion has been included in the
266:Note: This discussion has been included in the
251:Note: This discussion has been included in the
268:list of Military-related deletion discussions
8:
551:it ran aground, and he died" is not SigCov.
114:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
253:list of People-related deletion discussions
890:
617:Vol 27 with Atkins appearing in the search
280:
265:
250:
893:list of content for rescue consideration
678:. Pomona, Queensland: Sage Old Books.
674:Bates, David; Gower, David I. (2017).
493:. Pomona, Queensland: Sage Old Books.
489:Bates, David; Gower, David I. (2017).
522:and an associated webpage. Not a non-
344:and so seems fine. My !vote stands.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
56:. Going down with his ship, again.
304:. There's a nice account of them
24:
123:David Atkins (Royal Navy officer)
75:David Atkins (Royal Navy officer)
99:Introduction to deletion process
326:That's very clearly not an RS.
1:
843:19:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
827:08:32, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
808:07:13, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
791:16:53, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
775:13:30, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
758:12:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
739:04:02, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
723:17:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
647:17:05, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
629:20:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
611:20:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
597:20:28, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
575:16:02, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
561:15:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
542:13:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
480:12:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
458:12:24, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
438:04:19, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
420:20:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
393:03:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
336:03:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
318:23:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
290:16:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
275:16:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
260:16:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
245:16:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
854:when nominated for deletion
852:Article is not what it was
89:(AfD)? Read these primers!
984:
340:The source summarises its
944:03:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
930:19:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
911:15:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
884:14:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
354:14:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
69:12:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
957:Please do not modify it.
692:"David Atkins biography"
507:"David Atkins biography"
32:Please do not modify it.
375:. Coverage is largely
342:extensive bibliography
487:Bates is both a book
87:Articles for deletion
796:Point of information
379:of the loss of the
369:HMS Defence (1763)
54:HMS Defence (1763)
913:
619:but still no bio.
292:
277:
262:
104:Guide to deletion
94:How to contribute
67:
975:
909:
899:7&6=thirteen
882:
872:7&6=thirteen
721:
711:7&6=thirteen
706:
704:
702:
688:
540:
530:7&6=thirteen
521:
519:
517:
503:
456:
446:7&6=thirteen
418:
408:7&6=thirteen
231:
230:
216:
164:
146:
84:
66:
64:
57:
34:
983:
982:
978:
977:
976:
974:
973:
972:
971:
965:deletion review
896:
869:
708:
700:
698:
690:Atkins, David.
689:
685:
673:
581:Naval Chronicle
527:
515:
513:
504:
500:
488:
443:
405:
173:
137:
121:
118:
81:
78:
60:
58:
48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
981:
979:
970:
969:
951:
950:
949:
948:
947:
946:
920:goes aground.
887:
886:
846:
845:
831:
830:
829:
811:
810:
793:
778:
760:
742:
741:
696:Sage Old Books
683:
670:
669:
668:
667:
666:
665:
664:
663:
662:
661:
660:
659:
658:
657:
656:
655:
654:
653:
652:
651:
650:
649:
613:
599:
511:Sage Old Books
505:Bates, David.
498:
423:
422:
395:
361:
360:
359:
358:
357:
356:
321:
320:
294:
293:
278:
263:
234:
233:
170:
117:
116:
111:
101:
96:
79:
77:
72:
46:
45:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
980:
968:
966:
962:
958:
953:
952:
945:
941:
937:
933:
932:
931:
927:
923:
922:GraemeLeggett
919:
915:
914:
912:
907:
906:
901:
900:
894:
889:
888:
885:
880:
879:
874:
873:
867:
863:
859:
855:
851:
848:
847:
844:
840:
836:
832:
828:
824:
820:
819:GraemeLeggett
815:
814:
813:
812:
809:
805:
801:
797:
794:
792:
789:
786:
782:
779:
776:
772:
768:
764:
761:
759:
755:
751:
750:GraemeLeggett
747:
744:
743:
740:
736:
732:
727:
726:
725:
724:
719:
718:
713:
712:
697:
693:
686:
684:9780958702126
681:
677:
648:
644:
640:
636:
632:
631:
630:
626:
622:
621:GraemeLeggett
618:
614:
612:
608:
604:
603:GraemeLeggett
600:
598:
594:
590:
589:GraemeLeggett
586:
582:
578:
577:
576:
572:
568:
564:
563:
562:
558:
554:
553:GraemeLeggett
549:
548:
547:
546:
545:
544:
543:
538:
537:
532:
531:
525:
512:
508:
501:
499:9780958702126
496:
492:
486:
483:
482:
481:
477:
473:
469:
465:
461:
460:
459:
454:
453:
448:
447:
441:
440:
439:
435:
431:
427:
426:
425:
424:
421:
416:
415:
410:
409:
403:
399:
396:
394:
390:
386:
382:
378:
374:
370:
366:
363:
362:
355:
351:
347:
343:
339:
338:
337:
333:
329:
325:
324:
323:
322:
319:
315:
311:
307:
303:
299:
296:
295:
291:
288:
284:
279:
276:
273:
269:
264:
261:
258:
254:
249:
248:
247:
246:
243:
239:
229:
225:
222:
219:
215:
211:
207:
204:
201:
198:
195:
192:
189:
186:
183:
179:
176:
175:Find sources:
171:
168:
162:
158:
154:
150:
145:
141:
136:
132:
128:
124:
120:
119:
115:
112:
109:
105:
102:
100:
97:
95:
92:
91:
90:
88:
83:
76:
73:
71:
70:
65:
63:
55:
51:
44:
42:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
956:
954:
917:
904:
898:
877:
871:
849:
795:
780:
762:
745:
716:
710:
699:. Retrieved
675:
671:
634:
535:
529:
514:. Retrieved
490:
484:
463:
451:
445:
413:
407:
397:
380:
364:
297:
235:
223:
217:
209:
202:
196:
190:
184:
174:
80:
61:
49:
47:
31:
28:
866:WP:Preserve
835:Indy beetle
800:Indy beetle
200:free images
767:Cavalryman
62:Sandstein
961:talk page
936:Mztourist
731:Mztourist
639:Mztourist
567:Mztourist
472:Mztourist
430:Mztourist
385:Mztourist
328:Mztourist
37:talk page
963:or in a
788:darkness
785:Intothat
781:Redirect
763:Redirect
746:Redirect
365:Redirect
167:View log
108:glossary
50:redirect
39:or in a
918:Defence
850:Comment
701:4 April
516:4 April
464:Defence
400:Passes
381:Defence
300:Passes
287:Lettler
272:Lettler
257:Lettler
242:Lettler
206:WP refs
194:scholar
140:protect
135:history
85:New to
862:WP:GNG
858:WP:HEY
485:Adkins
402:WP:GNG
373:WP:GNG
346:Andrew
310:Andrew
302:WP:GNG
238:WP:GNG
236:Fails
178:Google
144:delete
524:WP:RS
468:WP:1E
377:WP:1E
221:JSTOR
182:books
161:views
153:watch
149:links
16:<
940:talk
926:talk
860:.
839:talk
823:talk
804:talk
771:talk
754:talk
735:talk
703:2018
680:ISBN
643:talk
625:talk
607:talk
593:talk
579:The
571:talk
557:talk
518:2018
495:ISBN
476:talk
434:talk
398:Keep
389:talk
350:talk
332:talk
314:talk
306:here
298:Keep
214:FENS
188:news
157:logs
131:talk
127:edit
868:.
864:.
856:.
367:to
348:🐉(
312:🐉(
228:TWL
165:– (
52:to
942:)
928:)
895:.
841:)
825:)
806:)
773:)
756:)
737:)
694:.
645:)
627:)
609:)
595:)
573:)
559:)
509:.
478:)
436:)
404:.
391:)
383:.
352:)
334:)
316:)
308:.
285:.
270:.
255:.
208:)
159:|
155:|
151:|
147:|
142:|
138:|
133:|
129:|
938:(
924:(
908:)
905:☎
902:(
881:)
878:☎
875:(
837:(
821:(
802:(
777:.
769:(
752:(
733:(
720:)
717:☎
714:(
705:.
687:.
641:(
623:(
605:(
591:(
569:(
555:(
539:)
536:☎
533:(
520:.
502:.
474:(
455:)
452:☎
449:(
432:(
417:)
414:☎
411:(
387:(
330:(
232:)
224:·
218:·
210:·
203:·
197:·
191:·
185:·
180:(
172:(
169:)
163:)
125:(
110:)
106:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.