876:. That has been instructive and motivational, and I'm grateful for them guarding and honing our Knowledge (XXG) craft. However, the response to this of wanting to delete it, is not. It's an aggressive deletionist agenda. Especially while the article is under development and the preponderance of sources may require expertise and drive to locate. The given references already existing in the article right now (more than the minimum number required just to keep the article, if you lack a vendetta against it), already demonstrate that the figure is present across countless ancient cultures of the world. That fact alone demonstrates a reasonable expectation that printed, and possibly old, sources exist. And the given references in the article demonstrate that Druvalo's interpretation is only one concept, but is nonetheless widespread throughout culture, and just happens to have recently given us a handy dandy name for it. Furthermore, this is not at all the same article that once was. It was a hot mess that I would have deleted half of. I am a non-deletionist who routinely deletes huge amounts of articles and leaves warnings in order to save the articles. Nonetheless, I repeat that the subject's notability is already substantially demonstrated. People here within this discussion are literally saying that printed books don't exist, which were already references within the article at the time they wrote such comments yesterday. They're saying the ones in the article don't exist, and they're replying to the list of books above to helpfully inform us that those, too, fail to exist. If you think the sources in the article or in this thread truly fail notability, can you enumerate each one and the reason why, as per the policy of
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1990s". This motif, if it has antiquity and has spread amongst many cultures, one would suppose had a name before that, probably several names. There is also what I would call gross ignorance on display in that coining. This pattern is actually composed entirely of compass points / arcs, i.e. it is all construction lines. In that form it exists a preliminary underlying stage (a framework) for the creation/construction of more complicated interlace patterns. See for example pages 120-122 of "Islamic
Patterns, an analytical and Cosmological Approach" by Keith Critchlow (from 1976, long before the name "Flower of Live" was coined). Critchlow does not give a name for this motif, because for him it is simply the preliminary laying out phase for constructing more complicated patterns. So there is a question in my mind about whether historically it ever existed as an actual standalone object. Any historical objects might just be practice exercises of the preliminary stage required for the production of more complicated geometric motifs. and since most modern-day viewers would not understand how those more complicated motifs were constructed, they do not realise that this "Flower of Life" is nothing more than layout lines.
907:. It is a fact that the geometric ornament exists, and that it is called "Flower of Life" at least by some since the 1990s, when an author from the esoteric scene attributed some properties to it which has given some popularity to it. Now, the name is found not only in the original work, but also in examples of available literature not published by the original propagator (see lists above and the references currently in the article). Thus the name exists. The references thus prove the existence of the name and the existence of the concept. The name is also e.g. used by jewellery vendors which have no direct affiliations to the scene (look e.g. at amazon.com for "flower of life" in the department "Arts, crafts and sewing"). Knowledge (XXG)'s task to keep knowledge about things and concepts, including referencing judging of such concepts without judging itself, as Knowledge (XXG) does e.g. for astrology or the virginity of Mary. (Of course, an article like this is subject to changes by propagators of the esoteric beliefs and has to be watched for this.) --
1071:. There have been three phases in the evolution of the subject. Firstly we had multiple occurrences on/as historical artefacts. These are probably unlinked with likely different meanings. Then New Age author Melchizedek took a shine to this symbol, gave it a catchy name and imbued it with doubtful mysticism. The third phase has been the subsequent 15 years or so when it escaped into the wild and there have been widespread appearances of this pattern in popular culture, fashion, jewellery etc. mostly with the appellation 'Flower of Life'. To take just one example, a Google search for "Flower of Life" produces pages of products of this pattern and with this name. What we have now is a widely used definitive geometric pattern with a generally accepted name. Oh, and before I forget, there are enough sources out there to meet
1210:. Just because a thing superficially looks the same does not mean it is the same! All the alleged historical precedents presented in the article are just fringe. I don't know whether it is OR fringe, or comes from sources that mention the subject. If the article is kept that content will need to be removed if it is OR, or if from sources will need to be rewritten to make it clear these identifications are just the opinion of non-expert sources. I've yet to see any archaeological or art history source cited that uses the term "Flower of Life". Have yet to vote because I have yet to decide if the subject is notable enough for an article.
880:? That would help the non-deletionists continue to improve the article about the already-notable and non-deletion-worthy subject further. And it would help to improve us as Wikipedians, as the proverbial iron sharpens iron. Even those sources which are works of fiction, serve to demonstrate the notable culture significance of Drunvalo's concept and name of "Flower of Life", let alone the other sources which demonstrate geometric principles and other things. And they're saying if they can't find more reliable sources within a cursory scan of google while holding an agenda against doing so, then it doesn't exist and cannot exist.
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marking the inline citations with the appropriate tags such as {{better source}}, {{disputed-inline}}, then that would be an encyclopedic contribution. And it would be appreciated because this isn't the easiest thing in the world. It sure isn't as easy as throwing rocks from AfD. Instead, the fact that you weaselword the objective facts with "suspiciousness" instead of making any analysis (policy-based) is unencyclopedic and the opposite of
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only referenced for the geometrical properties (which are there independent of any belief system or theories on their importance) and for having used the naming. Besides that, the subject of the article is not
Melchizedek's belief system (personally, I have difficulties to name it a "theory"), but a geometrical pattern, which (as pointed out in the article) now plays a role in popular culture beyond this specific belief system. --
619:). Making this into a redirect to the Temple article, that would be okay, I guess, but I think that this is largely the arbitrary naming scheme adopted by Weisstein for convenience sake rather than an actual name for the figure. Certainly the academic literature is devoid of reference to this tiling with this particular name. As Wikimandia points out, basically every other source is aping Drunvalo Melchizadek because they are
924:. I honestly don't know what you guys are on about when you guys say this shape isn't notable. Surely now that Coldplay's brought attention to the Flower of Life, you are willing to conceed that, yeah, people actually do recognize this shape as that cool thing you could do with circles. This is just getting ridiculous. :|
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Your last argument is a red herring and logically incorrect too, as being a true believer does not imply "aping" Melchidazek and does not prevent somebody from producing external references (otherwise, e.g. regarding the belief of catholic
Christians, the relevance of all theological literature from
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There is a bit of
Synthesis, and OR, and cultural appropriation going on in the article, but there isn't any doubt that the motif that the article describes does exist. But what is the motif? My main issue is with the article's title "Flower of Life" - the article states that it was "coined in the
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citation. Or else nothing at all, because I know an apology for aggressively wasting all our time is unlikely, although the community has conclusively proven that you were wrong. Doubling down on wrong upon wrong isn't working. If you were to do the civil thing, by actually labeling them here or
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I just have replaced the reference "Sightings: The Secret of the Sphinx ..." by a reliable one. Admittedly, some other references seem questionable, which only proves that the (already ongoing) work on the article is not finished yet (not uncommon for
Knowledge (XXG) articles). Martha Bradfield is
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Appreciate that, but for some reason there are a number of admins who are refusing to accept the G4 rationale for reasons that are close to baffling. I'm in discussion with one right now who claims that the article is substantially different from the deleted one (it's not). Another removed the G4
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Agreed, the admins are completely failing on this one. The article has already been deleted twice this year alone, and there's nothing new, just more blog posts. I find many of the offline sources (note - no page numbers) to be very suspicious and likely taken directly from
Melchizadek's book.
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For example, Ref. 9 "Sightings: The Secret of the Sphinx & Edgar Cayce", as I pointed out in the previous AfD, does NOT contain any mention whatsoever to the statement it supposedly claims to reference! Yet it was very specifically suspiciously added back into this article? That calls into
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concerns, reliability of sourcing used in the article, plus the fact that the article was previously deleted in an AfD discussion. Editors voting for keep noted the sources used in the article, the expansion of the article, and how these sources bring the article above the
82:. While the number of "keep" votes are certainly more than the number of "delete" votes, some "keep" votes did not present any policy-based arguments. Since both sides presented valid arguments, I closed this as no consensus, with no prejudice against speedy renomination.
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notice because it the discussion you mention wasn't conclusive enough! I'm not sure exactly what's going on here, but we may with to ask for a salting or a protected redirect to the article on the Temple of Osiris if we agree to adopt
Weisstein's scheme, for example.
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1157:. Moreover, I am not convinced of your claim "if has antiquity and has spread amongst many cultures, one would suppose a name" – this is a linguistic theory but not a fact. Thus, I regard your arguments as hints to improve the article, but not against keeping. --
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868:. Hello, friends, and thank you to those who've given constructive feedback. The deletionist crusade is unconscionable and embarrassing to the community. I am gratefully respectful of the detailed rationales given when citing policies about demonstrating
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Adding closing rationale per request on my user talk page: the article has been overhauled since the start of the AfD, including the addition of a dozen sources, but this does not affect the notability of the subject. Editors voting for deletion noted
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Those examples are exact objects, not forms. So that's another non-sequitur. We're saying that these objects are ancient by all sources and they do obviously match these forms, which doesn't need any more citation than to say that the sky is
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for the philosophical problem). Therefore I claim that a "Flower of Life" pattern can "exist as as standalone object" even when not named or even perceived as an entity by a conscious mind. As
Knowledge (XXG) requests relevance of
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851:. The decline of the speedy deletion tag is unfortunate, but all of the unreliable-sourcing problems that caused the previous deletion are still present, and the out-of-process recreation is also a problem. —
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Sorry, blogs don't count as RS. (One of them is partially copied from the
Knowledge (XXG) entry!!) And the book only has a brief mention, hardly the in-depth coverage required. Please see
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615:) while other patterns (including others found at the same temple) which are explicitly mentioned in our article are declared by Mathworld to be specifically other patterns. (e.g.
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Yeah. Aren't you just describing what a geometrical form is, as distinct from what a physical product is? I mean this *is* geometry. So I believe it's as obvious as you say. —
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question the other off-line sources. Drunvalo
Melchizedek has no credentials (besides selling his services online), and he and his "followers" are not reliable sources and fail
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I'm looking and see that the tilings listed at Mathworld, for example, only allow for a single instance of the "flower of life" to be considered as one pattern found at the
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It is part of popular culture, with enough references to prove it, and to show that htis is the common name for it. It should be moved back to the unqualified title.
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1261:- All though for some it may seem fringe or syn , there are lot of resources available and even documentaries made on this! and also for all the above reason sake!
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asking for a reiteration of a personal agenda in the form of a weasel-worded rant with juvenile chanting, and a single belabored cherry-picked example. I
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1052:. So if there's no neutrally and encyclopedically policy-driven piece-by-piece evaluation of proposed sources, then please just disregard. Thank you. —
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Doctoral dissertation, B. Marie Brady-Whitcanack, Appendix I: Melchizedek's examples of the flower of life, tree of life, golden spiral,
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642:), who instead of "aping", constructs sculptures 17.8m high referring to the Flower of Life, standing in a prominent place in
834:. A speedy deletion has been already declined for this article, so that we need to wait until the end of the 7 days period.--
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1149:, a "bad naming" of a thing (e.g. a naming derived from "gross ignorance") is no counter argument against relevance of the
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Augustinus to Benedict XVI could be questioned on this base). Here is another source from an (apparently) "true believer" (
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936:. At its current form, it is a well-sourced article about a shape and symbol that seems to exist "out there".
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Here's a few, at least showing Melchizadek's name for this ancient symbol has stuck, and is being propagated.
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981:. The "source" you are using to confirm it is called this who "acknowledges" Melchizedek (Martha Bartfeld)
233:), this new article on the same corrupt subject suffers from even worse problems than the previous one. It
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1096:- this article could really use improvement, but I don't see how the sources found don't show notability.
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asking for you to back your extraordinary and counter-factual claim of deletion, by examining and marking
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of Drunvalo Melchizadek that identify this figure as the "flower of life" and as notable, what are they?
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which actually declaim this shape as special and then recreated out-of-process (there was never a proper
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1048:. This is like barratry, just abusing the blatantly unpoliced deletion process as a personal weapon for
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1044:. If this article was a person, then that plus the repeatedly egregious deletionism would constitute
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the deficiencies, some of which are highlighted in this discussion, are not grounds for deletion.
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per G4 - I remember this one, just pure drivel that had fake citations that failed verification.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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353:", where the name "Flower of Life" was used on Nov 6 (now ref. 15 in the article). --
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Aesthetic Cognition and Symbolism: A Hermeneutic Analysis of the "Apprentice ...
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Sedona: Beyond the Vortex: The Ultimate Journey to Your Personal Place of Power
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Sedona: Beyond the Vortex: The Ultimate Journey to Your Personal Place of Power
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Lost Technologies of Ancient Egypt: Advanced Engineering in the Temples of ...
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Flower of Life (2nd nomination)
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The Grand Illusion: A Synthesis of Science and Spirituality—Book One
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Cosmic Connections:: Ancient Knowledge Meets Spiritual Science
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Ascension Magick: Ritual, Myth & Healing for the New Aeon
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Let's start with the fact you have fake references in there.
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of the kind we require for stand-alone fringe articles.
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CRC Concise Encyclopedia of Mathematics, Second Edition
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A really independent source is the British newspaper "
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discussing this in a manner that would make it meet
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You Are a Spiritual Being Having a Human Experience
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524:UNIVERSAL TRUTH: Thinking outside the Box:, Book 2
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972:wants to know what's wrong with the references.
728:list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions
694:list of Mathematics-related deletion discussions
241:by Drunvalo Melchizadek that has received zero
811:" on Nov. 6 (now ref. 15 in the article). --
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396:. Champaign, IL: Wolfram Media, Inc.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1023:I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I
890:#leavebritneyalone #hakunamatata. —
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470:Modern Esoteric: Beyond Our Senses
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386:Wolfram, Stephen (May 14, 2002).
1128:Your comment seems to express a
548:The Reawakening of Consciousness
442:August 29, 2014Marko Manninen
440:Artifacts of the Flower of Life
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1145:rather than the relevance of
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566:Rune3Master - Into the Depths
476:Meditation and Qigong Mastery
446:Flower of Life: 5Dzine Lesson
326:Please, if there are sources
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572:Prophecy of Days - Book One
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653:(in Spanish). iboenweb.com
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1040:. That is just community
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101:Flower of Life (geometry)
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1281:Please do not modify it.
532:By Dr. Cheri St. Arnauld
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526:By Dr. Peter C. Rogers,
488:Diamond Light Awareness
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1212:Tiptoethrutheminefield
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754:. Tagging it as such.
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1153:if this is perceived
1138:Problem of universals
1134:Philosophical realism
554:The Devolution of Man
550:By Luis Miguel Falcao
536:The Map of the Psyche
478:By Ricardo B. Serrano
389:A New Kind of Science
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508:By Richard Dannelley
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934:Strong keep
922:Strong keep
657:January 17,
640:Ibo Bonilla
568:Brad Lorenz
328:independent
186:free images
1263:Shrikanthv
644:Costa Rica
1286:talk page
1077:WP:NEXIST
979:WP:FRINGE
888:WP:NORUSH
836:Ymblanter
418:cite book
37:talk page
1288:or in a
1239:Smuckola
1189:Smuckola
1055:Smuckola
997:Мандичка
970:Smuckola
893:Smuckola
792:Мандичка
597:Мандичка
428:|others=
410:47831356
371:Tom Ruen
315:Мандичка
285:Tom Ruen
269:Мандичка
235:promotes
145:View log
39:or in a
1234:WP:BLUE
1182:Karl432
1159:Karl432
1111:Comment
1098:Bearian
1011:Karl432
909:Karl432
832:Comment
813:Karl432
750:due to
669:Karl432
355:Karl432
192:WP refs
180:scholar
118:protect
113:history
1242:(talk)
1192:(talk)
1143:things
1073:WP:GNG
1058:(talk)
1046:WP:NPA
1038:WP:AGF
1025:wasn't
896:(talk)
849:Delete
803:There
589:WP:GNG
394:online
307:WP:GNG
164:Google
122:delete
71:WP:SYN
1151:thing
1147:names
1136:(see
1042:abuse
989:WP:RS
961:talk
951:Keep.
938:Zezen
878:WP:RS
874:WP:RS
748:WP:G4
303:WP:RS
207:JSTOR
168:books
152:Stats
139:views
131:watch
127:links
75:WP:OR
16:<
1267:talk
1259:Keep
1236:. —
1216:talk
1205:ICBM
1163:talk
1120:talk
1102:talk
1094:Keep
1085:talk
1069:Keep
1033:each
1015:talk
942:talk
913:talk
905:Keep
872:and
870:WP:N
866:Keep
857:talk
840:talk
817:talk
777:talk
673:talk
659:2014
629:talk
433:help
407:OCLC
398:ISBN
375:talk
359:talk
336:talk
289:talk
281:Keep
251:talk
200:FENS
174:news
135:logs
109:talk
105:edit
84:sst✈
73:and
61:sst✈
1155:now
1029:was
1002:😜
991:.
956:DGG
797:😜
773:jps
667:--
625:jps
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332:jps
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309:.
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247:jps
214:TWL
143:– (
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