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articles on
Maltsev also document the criticism he has received and are otherwise well written in a typically academic style, but this is, after all, immaterial. Since there is no doubt that Introvigne is a famous scholar, and that he writes for prestigious presses and journals, once he has written something about Maltsev, this something becomes part of the scientific knowledge about Maltsev and is therefore a quotable source. Criticism of Introvigne is surely legitimate but has very few to do with the question whether Maltsev (not Introvigne) is well-known internationally. That Maltsev is the subject of scholarly studies is a fact - the motivations of those who wrote these studies and their quality have presumably been checked in the peer review processes, but calling them into question now does not make Maltsev less well-known. This applies to Introvigne and to the other scholars who have written about Maltsev, and to the journals that published their articles. A very suspicious fellow may argue that all of them are âfriendsâ of Maltsev (although in this case why they also report on criticism of him is unclear). My point is that these conspiracy theories are not the point. Whatever the motivations for scholars and journalists to write about Maltsev, or everybody else, once their articles are published, and the more so if they are published in peer-reviewed journals and Web sites, they become part of the sources generally available to the scholarly community and the public opinion, and in this case they are enough to establish the relevance of the article.
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bishops, Buddhist monks, and founders of a dozen religious movements. This is common for sociologists of religions, whose method of work is to visit groups and interview people, as it is normal for famous scholars to be invited by different people in different countries to lecture. With
Russians Donât give upâs criteria, no article ever written by a sociologist of religion should be a reliable source for Wikipedia. It also seems that Russians Donât give up is not familiar with how peer-reviewed scholarly publications, such as the encyclopedia World Religions and Spirituality Project and The Journal of CESNUR and other academic journals work. Even assuming that Massimo Introvigne had biases in favor of Maltsev, he should still have passed the peer review of other academics, which is much more strict and fastidious than those outside the academia may believe. Again, the article certainly relies on works by Masimo Introvigne (undoubtedly, a leading world specialist when it comes to cults), but also on international media and works by other scholars. I am just a graduate student but have made since I was in high school quite a few editing in Wikipedia and find both preposterous and offensive to be accused of creating âpromotional articles for a price.â I believe that reading the article would speak for itself. On the other hand, I do not find any editing done by Russians Donât give up.
675:"Russians Don't give up" seems to be exercising a frail attempt to discredit those who desire to keep this page and painting an image of collusion when there is none. A checkuser may be done to discredit this accusation. The argument is simply strong on the notability of Maltsev, and there are enough references to support this fact. A case in point is Mysticism, the Esoteric Paradigm and Oleg Maltsev by PierLuigi Zocatelli, who described in detail Maltsev's contribution to scholarship about the esoteric tradition. It seems to me that "Russians don't give up" is the one with the agenda to delete this page, stopping at nothing and making empty statements in order to achieve his goal.
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new religious/esoteric movement that is well-known as such in several countries and is widely accused of being a cult. I have devoted more space to his ideas about God than to any âscientificâ activity. In the process of researching him (and thanks also to this discussion on deletion) I have also found many references to
Maltsev on specialized sites and sources about boxing and fencing, but this is not my pot of tea. I maintain that the scholars I have quoted are all widely published and with international reputation, and that their articles prove that he is discussed in different countries for his religious ideas. The bibliography of Maltsev published at
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religious and esoteric movements, or if you prefer ânotorious cults,â although this is not the politically correct term, or at any rate characters that attract widespread attention for their âunique combinations of belief.â The other, which is not my field, is boxing and weapon handling techniques, where
Maltsev seems also to have attracted considerable international attention. The scholars I quoted may be criticized for one or another reason, but one positive contribution they offered is that they tried to explain how the heck Maltsevâs beliefs about God/esotericism and boxing/criminal groups/weapon handling are related
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name âOleg
Maltsevâ recurs 17 times; in the second article by FautrĂ©, it recurs 14 times), as well as in Di Marzioâs and Zoccatelliâs. Di Marzioâs article is about a movie directed by Oleg Maltsev and its title is âOleg Maltsev and the Mythical History of Salvatore Giuliano.â Zoccatelliâs article is called âMysticism, the Esoteric Paradigm and Oleg Maltsev.â The article in National Geographic is about Maltsevâs theories about fencing. I am not an expert of boxing but am adding a reference to Oleg Maltsevâ theories on boxing from a specialized Web site, just for the fun of it.
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with this movement. There's no point going by citations--the places he publishes are not in the mainstream accessible to us, and the Cesnur articles are too new for citations. This is not going to be easy to rewrite--it poses the frequent dilemma in this field of not being important enough for an extensive article, but needing considerable space to explain his unique combination of beliefs. His views are difficult to objectively categorize, but I would personally consider his writings as pseudo-history. There is no point judging pseudo-academic work by academic standards.
397:. The article is by the same Massimo Introvigne, but the World Religions and Spirituality Project is a peer-reviewed publication at Virginia Commonwealth University and certainly does not select its topics lightly. âRussians donât give upâ seem to represent the position by some Russian milieus regarding Maltsev as the leader of a âcult.â This position is obviously part of what makes Maltsev newsworthy (and studied by scholars internationally) and is mentioned and discussed in the article.
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interesting. Claiming that I âhave a minimal contribution to
Wikipediaâ shows that this guy or lady is not really familiar with Wikipedia and joined for different purposes than honestly contributing to it. I have also no idea who the other users who participated in the discussion are. Checkusers by administrators are welcome. Again, it is not true that the article is based on one source only, and again the critic does not seem to understand how peer review works in academic sources
1280:). I don't think they are a predatory journal (I can't find any proof for that), but at the very least they are a far cry from significant journal. Which calls into question how seriously they tackle the peer reviews. This is a tough call; barring other sources, all we have are two articles in a very minor journal. The subject is clearly interested in self-promotion (just look at his nice website; not that there is anything wrong with either), but given stuff like
744:, an eminent scholar who is not "affiliated" with Maltsev in any sense of the world. The others, i.e. the majority, are from respected sources other than Introvigne. It seems to me that a couple of Russian users believe that, when an author is controversial, the page should be deleted. In fact, controversies should be taken into account (as I believe I did) but a controversial author does not become less noteworthy because he or she is controversial
885:. In my opinion, valuable time was wasted in attacking the quality of the sources, while not only are they of excellent quality but they prove what those specialized in the field (and with some editings done, which does not seem to be the case for those asking for deletion...) know, i.e. that Oleg V. Maltsev leads a well-known and controversial (hence widely discussed) ânew religious movementâ of sort. Looking at the sources, I notice that
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926:. There are eight quotes by Zoccatelli and Di Marzio. That these articles have been published in a journal having Introvigne as one of the editors would not be an objection (and there are not so many specialized journals in this domain at any rate). These are well-known scholars with their own reputation to defend, not to mention that their articles went through the peer review process too.
970:. There are numerous serious and respected academic sources. Those calling for deletion do not seem to have valid arguments except that they do not like one particular (internationally famous) scholar who is at any rate one among several sources quoted. Maltsev is well known also for his idiosyncratic and controversial ideas about God and esotericism, recently discussed inter alia by the
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language. 3) He doesn't seem to be affiliated with any scientific institution, at least I can't see any note/CV of him being a professor or such. My reading of his webpage suggests he is working independently, which is not a good indicator (most proper scholars work at a scientific institution). 4) The clear sockpuppet activity here is suggestive of someone with an agenda, and smells of
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to imagine how would anyone stumble upon them (but, AGF, it's not impossible). Still, I just have trouble seeing him as a s real scholar due to his zero presence on Google
Scholar; something seems very fishy here - or perhaps I am not using the right searchers to find him on Google. So, either we are dealing with a major
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notability rule. Ultimately, I believe the article should be kept because among those studying or otherwise interested in the so called cults, or religious unhortodox movements, Maltsev is well-known enough. I do not find evidence that the main sources are affiliated or promotional. Criticism focused
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Keep. As others in this discussion, my experience has been only in editing about religion and I read the article because I am interested in
Maltsev's highly controversial religious ideas (with which, as a Christian, I disagree). I do not have enough knowledge to comment whether the subject is notable
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it's clear he has some connections to Italy. Did the two scholars wrote articles about him because they think he is notable - or because they are doing him a favor? Hmmm. The creation of the
Wikipedia article is also highly problematic. Given the super low impact of the journal, it's very hard for me
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With all due respect, the argument seems increasingly preposterous. The
Applied Sciences Association is the brainchild of Oleg Maltsev and it is impossible to discuss the Association without discussing Maltsev. His name recurs continuously in FautrĂ©âs articles (in the article FautrĂ© wrote in 2016 the
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somewhat notable, although considerably promotional. I tend to interpret notability for non-standard religious movements and their associated people very broadly, in order to avoid unconscious prejudice. The objectivity of CESNUR has been challenged in multiple directions, but it is not affiliated
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Many thanks to the last user for his very interesting comments. There is however a misunderstanding. I know next to nothing about scientists and have never written or edited articles about scientists in a long activity in Wikipedia. My main interest in Maltsev is because he operates an idiosyncratic
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and which is widely regarded as the most authoritative publication in this field. Even if the articles by Introvigne would have been biased in favor of Maltsev, the bias would have been noticed and corrected in the peer review, unless one suspects a conspiracy involving a huge number of sociologists
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These users keep repeating without proving that Introvigne is the only scholar quoted while two thirds of quotes are from other sources. Interestingly the three guys who voted for the deletion have made no significant edits while those who voted against have all edited in the field of religion - and
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2) not seeing any references to his work in Google Books, neither. Effectively, he is not cited in English scholars (which does not mean he is not notable, he just have no real international impact). Can't verify regional impact, since he presumably publishes in Ukrainian and I can't search in that
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6. Interestingly, the author quoted Introvigne for factual elements (where Maltsev was born and educated, summary of some of his books), while Zoccatelli, Di Marzio, Fautré and the European Society were quoted for judgments and evaluations. The quotes by Introvigne do not have a valutative content,
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It seems to me that this discussion is deviating from its original purpose. Here, we discuss whether a page on Oleg Viktorovich Maltsev should be kept. We are not discussing whether Massimo Introvigne is a good scholar or a bad scholar or is biased in favor of Maltsev. I donât believe he is, as his
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rule, unless this qualification has been used by some scholars somewhere. At any rate, some more critical comments about Maltsev's theories of history should be sourced and quoted and would improve the article. But pseudo-theologies grounded in faulty historical theories, when they become popular
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With all due respect, as the person who created the entry, I found this discussion increasingly bizarre. Simply Googling âMassimo Introvigneâ would show that he has lectured, has been interviewed by, and is friend on Facebook (where he has thousands of friends) with Catholic cardinals, Protestant
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and psychologist Raffaella Di Marzio, who is the author of several books and articles. Are they all âpartnersâ of Oleg Maltsev? The article also relies on an entry on the Applied Sciences Association, the organization founded by Maltsev, in the online encyclopedia World Religions and Spirituality
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Based on my experience and research, and as confirmed by other editors above, Massimo Introvigne is a reliable scholar who produces literature that is well-respected by the community. I have seen his work being used in many other pages, and to delete this page just on the basis of one individual
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2. Two of the 19 items are two articles by Professor Introvigne and he is quoted (sometimes not alone) in 12 notes out of 38. This is not surprising, as he is âtheâ specialist of Eastern European new religious movements. His two articles have been published in peer-reviewed sources. The board
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Again, I am at loss to understand what exactly he is talking about. I have contributed to Wikipedia for many years and created a good number of pages, primarily in my specialized field, East Asian Religions and culture, but also in other fields related to religion. Nonetheless, the comment is
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I vote against the deletion. There are multiple scholarly sources in this article, and all are academic publications (apart from the National Geographic, which is not academic but a well-known publication as well). The sources, taken together, evidence that Maltsev is internationally studied,
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that Maltsev would be probably not notable as a âscientistâ (although he claims to be one and has a PhD in psychology). But he is notable in two fields. One is my own field (and, I understand, judging from their contributions, the field of some who expressed themselves against deletion), new
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and University of Bordeauxâ Bernadette Rigal-Cellard. Articles quoted from the âJournal of CESNURâ are by other authors too, including PierLuigi Zoccatelli, who is professor of Sociology of Religions at the Catholic University of Turin, Pontifical Salesian University
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The article should obviously be kept. If there are other sources about criticism against O.V. Maltsev they should be quoted, but there is no doubt that he is known internationally and his work has been discussed in respected academic and non-academic publications.
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These sources are not about Oleg Maltsev. Willy Fautre spoke about attacks on his company but not about Oleg Maltsev himself. The article in National Geographic is about fencing, again not about Oleg Maltsev, etc. Only Massimo Introvigne wrote about Oleg
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Thanks to this user too. I have started improving the article by expanding the references in the section I am less familiar with, boxing and fencing, but such constructive contributions and suggestions are always welcome. I agree wholeheartedly with
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situation in the field of boxing, and other editors may be able to add additional sources. I agree that Maltsev is not notable in the field of science, but that is not what the article is about. In the field of religion, I like the comment by
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that the structure of Maltsev's theology is grounded in "pseudo-history" and was even tempted to add the expression "pseudo-history" to the article myself, although this may be a value judgement and I wonder whether it would not violate the
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issue (as in, scholar whose majority of works are in other, non-Latin language) or this is a vanity spam bio. Since no other sources were presented, I am leaning towards the pessimistic ('this is a vanity promotional piece') scenario. Ping
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article but it looks like this is not the specialized field of the author of the entry. At any rate, five references are from magazines or newspapers. They also confirm that Maltsev is notable enough, and they are in a variety of different
1235:, suggesting the Wikipedia bios might be written following a direct request from the subject (but weirdly, this has been nominated by a new user too... some off wiki conflict spilling here?). I will also note that creator of this article,
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are related to each other, they have never participated in the discussions about deletion of other pages, but they gathered here having a minimal contribution to the Wikipedia. Probably these accounts should be checked by Checkusers
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and the fact that Introvigne himself is one of the editors is not a valid objection, as in peer-reviewed journals the articles by the editors go through the same review as everybody elseâs. The peer review process is very strict: see
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7. The person who wrote the entry seems to be a scholar, but she did her homework in checking non-specialized media too. I would have liked more information about Maltsevâs martial arts techniques, perhaps quoting more from the
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Let's stop discussing me and discuss the compliance of the article with the rules. If you remove Introvigne sources, then there will almost no article. I will check in what are other articles with professor's
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shows that indeed most of Maltsevâs works are published in Russian, not in English. But at any rate most are about religion/esoterica or fencing/boxing and these articles do not end up in scientific indexes.
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There is no notability. I know how scientific reviews are done. It is strange that in addition to Massimo Introvigne, no one else is particularly interested in the scientific work of Oleg Maltsev.
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on Italian scholars but Fautré, for example, is not Italian, is himself well-known in the field, and started writing about Maltsev years before the Italian scholars published their articles.
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is one of the most well-known scholars in the field of religious studies and there is no evidence whatsoever that he and Oleg Maltsev are âpartners.â A simple look at the âJournal of CESNURâ
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Deleting would be a mistake. The page is balanced and includes criticism. Massimo Introvigne is a famous scholar of religion but there are other sources too. I recommend to keep the page. --
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It seems that this article does not have reliable sources. Professor Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR sources seem to be affiliated, as Massimo Introvigne and Oleg Maltsev are partners. --
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seems like a notable / reasonably reliable publisher, through it's journal is open source and doesn't seem to be indexed in any major international indices (I can't find it listed in
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Why other scientists don't write about Oleg Maltsev? Basically the whole article is based on the information which comes from Massimo Introvigne. It seems to me that users:
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4. There are scholarly articles by Professor PierLuigi Zoccatelli of Pontifical Salesian University, who has not an English Wikipedia page but has one in Italian
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I do not think that other sources are sufficient to indicate the Notability. I think this is a promotional article, probably created for a price.-
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questioning his notability would not be just. He has written various articles that evoke intelligent and sound commentary on various subjects.
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1227:. Cons: 1) A scholar with no citations AFAIK (according to Google Scholar); not to be confused with the biochemist Oleg Maltsev
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few years back... coincidence? Or professional association? Shrug. Pros: 1) he studies Struggacky's? That's cool
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Thanks. I am indeed new to deletion discussions, although I have edited/created a number of articles. Thanks to
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Even if one of the sources is affiliated, there's enough diversity of sources on the article to demonstrate
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Maltsev calls him a friend. And please donât blame me, I am simply a Wikipedia user just the way you are.-
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overseeing âThe Journal of CESNURâ reads like a Whoâs Who of the most famous academics in the field
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1060:: This discussion has been running for 13 days+ now without being transcluded. I have added a {{
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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1246:. But doesn't mean anything for Wikipedia's policies... just saying I appreciate it 2) two (
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and one by psychologist Raffaella Di Marzio, who has also a Wikipedia page in Italian
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Keep Maltsevâs page, he is obviously notable and the article is well sourced.
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5. One quote is to a review of articles about Maltsev in the Web site of the
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729:. The main source is affiliated. It looks like Aidayoung uses sockpuppets.--
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enough and attract followers, seem to be generally compatible with the
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Update: The sockpuppet investigation has obviously been closed quickly
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What main source? There are 37 quotes in the article, and 11 are from
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Professor Introvigne visits Odessa at the invitation of Oleg Maltsev
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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hence his alleged bias would have been neutralized at any rate.
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in boxing or weapons, although a quick search suggests a
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That the entry should be kept for me is self-evident.--
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European Society for the Study of Western Esotericism
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European Society for the Study of Western Esotericism
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1. The reference list consists of 19 different items.
1143:list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions
97:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1169:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1141:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1113:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1297:- this is an interesting bio/AfD to review. --
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1171:list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions
189:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
1252:) in-depth articles about him published in
1115:list of People-related deletion discussions
517:discussed (and criticized) in his field.
1076:, I have bulleted most of the above posts
766:PS I am deadly against using sockpuppets.
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1300:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
27:From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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174:Introduction to deletion process
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35:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion
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1269:Social Sciences Citation Index
913:Human Rights Without Frontiers
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164:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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72:Wikipedia:Deletion review
1539:Pages at deletion review
1513:Please do not modify it.
737:) 00:02, 28 August 2018
200:Oleg Viktorovich Maltsev
142:Oleg Viktorovich Maltsev
86:Please do not modify it.
1066:I have added multiple
1010:Russians Don`t give up
700:Russians Don`t give up
643:Russians Don`t give up
494:Russians Don`t give up
439:Russians Don`t give up
323:Russians Don`t give up
1254:The Journal of CESNUR
1201:for the useful tips.
162:Articles for deletion
1262:SCImago Journal Rank
1078:to get some clarity
940:National Geographic
109:(non-admin closure)
1241:Massimo Introvigne
920:and one in French
817:Night of the Raven
742:Massimo Introvigne
380:Massimo Introvigne
1408:Keep and rewrite.
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825:âPreceding
731:Marsellus W
609:âPreceding
556:âPreceding
525:Emma1990227
473:âPreceding
447:âPreceding
402:âPreceding
285:free images
1305:reply here
1062:subst:afd2
1008:Maltsev.--
943:languages.
1517:talk page
1468:WP:NEXIST
1444:Aidayoung
1360:Simonm223
1330:Aidayoung
1233:WP:VANITY
1203:Aidayoung
1086:WP:REDACT
1033:Aidayoung
857:Aidayoung
847:Aidayoung
793:Aidayoung
768:Aidayoung
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666:Aidayoung
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91:talk page
1533:Category
1519:or in a
1291:User:DGG
990:contribs
978:unsigned
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698:sources-
533:contribs
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427:2 source
423:1 source
394:Project
361:contribs
349:unsigned
244:View log
183:glossary
93:or in a
1071:undated
1058:Comment
827:undated
611:undated
558:undated
475:undated
449:undated
404:undated
291:WPÂ refs
279:scholar
217:protect
212:history
160:New to
1483:WP:GNG
1356:WP:GNG
1275:SCOPUS
1273:, nor
1258:CESNUR
1179:Sailor
1151:Sailor
1123:Sailor
1094:Sailor
727:Delete
263:Google
221:delete
118:umbolo
1419:talk
306:JSTOR
267:books
251:Stats
238:views
230:watch
226:links
33:<
1492:talk
1448:talk
1389:talk
1381:Keep
1364:talk
1352:Keep
1334:talk
1207:talk
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1014:talk
986:talk
968:Keep
951:talk
883:Keep
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681:talk
670:talk
647:talk
636:and
605:talk
582:talk
529:talk
498:talk
443:talk
435:Here
357:talk
327:talk
299:FENS
273:news
234:logs
208:talk
204:edit
104:keep
1473:DGG
1439:DGG
1414:DGG
1267:),
1176:Sam
1148:Sam
1120:Sam
1091:Sam
901:at
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313:TWL
242:â (
124:^^^
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