762:. It's reasonably well written and well sourced. People read it. (Or at least they open the page.) It could do with some improvements to be sure, but you can say the same for (?virtually) every entry in wikipedia. Our principal customer for wikipedia is not ourselves and fellow contributors. It's the general reader. (Yes, sometimes the same person: very often not.) Someone sufficiently interested to key in a collection of words on a search engine to land on a page where he or she can learn more about something that she or he was wondering about. Why would you want to tell someone interested in this information that wikipedia won't help (despite folks having already done the work) because we think we know better what he/she should wish to know, or that he or she should look some place else? Regards
1078:- I think there are reasonable arguments on both sides here. Ultimately I have to ask whether it would make sense to include a list of lines in a good article about the railway/bus system. I tend to think that, if space allows, the answer would be yes. So I'm not necessarily opposed to a merge. What we tend to do when such embedded lists get too long, however, is spin them out to a separate article. I'm surprised this made FL with so many external links and no sources outside the lead, but I don't think that's so relevant for this discussion's purpose. Presumably if this, a FL, is deleted on WP:NOT grounds, then then the entire category
331:: This is an utterly frivolous nomination. This is a featured list - one that has passed examination as one of the best lists on Knowledge (XXG) - not a travel guide. It is not intended to provide up-to-the-minute travel information; it presents a high-level overview of service types and routes and is heavily cross-linked from other articles. (Note that the nominator first tried to PROD the article against policy, then harassed the closer of the old AfD. His claim that the old AfD "somehow failed" is clearly false - ten of twelve commenters indicated it should be kept.)
619:, clearly relevant and encyclopedic information on a notable topic. I'm at a complete loss as to why anyone would think Knowledge (XXG) would be made better by deleting coverage of significant infrastructure in a major city. The deletion rationale has no more substance than a slogan—a completely superficial reading of NOTTRAVEL, as the details and examples given there of what kind of ephemeral or nonnotable content consensus has deemed unencyclopedic (pricing, contact info, nonnotable hotels, etc.) should show. It
1686:. Broader than just this article, lists of rail lines have been found, time and again, to be perfectly encyclopaedic topics so the nomination needs to detail what is different about this list, but it fails to do this. Finally, the nominator's main concern seems to be with some of the specific links/sources in the article - this is something that should be discussed on the article talk page as deleting the article would be overkill even without all the other reasons to keep.
982:- Hi Davey - If maintaining similar articles isn't justification to your thinking, then I guess the opposite approach could be taken and we could nominate all city-wide mass transit articles. But I think that would be silly. I'm sorry you don't think I've sufficiently argued my !vote here, and since I noted that you have rebutted many of those who believe we should "keep", I'm going to politely decline to further comment, beyond this edit. Thanks!
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failed in the attempt, I guess he would have told us so. I might even find his nomination more persuasive if he had done that. What we can both hope for is that someone more familiar with the available sources than (I suspect) either of us may now be stirred into action.... and that could well include adding or substituting better and more convincing sources. And please .... someone
1082:(as well as for other countries) would also be deleted. That's the sort of thing that I think should be discussed with the relevant wikiprojects first. Not because wikiprojects determine notability, but because I think it's more about how best to handle this sort of information (in a parent article vs. a stand-alone). —
1063:. I can't see my way to supporting a deletion of the entire article although I'm not enthusiastic about the list of bus routes. In any event, though, it would have been better for the nominator to campaign to have the list demoted from Featured List status first, rather than nominating a Featured List for deletion. --
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As so often, we are faced with a choice between "improve" and "give up". I guess that in the absence of powerful evidence pointing the other way, I instinctively prefer the idea of improvement. You don't. But if the nominator here has already spent half a day looking for better sources and then
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Already indicated, 13 years from last nominations should of hinted "improvements to distant away from being a travel guides", but still looks like same as before. San
Francisco already have a "well dedicated - updated - Travel Guide for the routes - Once this page gets removed and retain background
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is perhaps the most expensive train ticket on Earth. But identifying the routes and constituent parts of transport lines falls well within the bounds of encyclopedic content -- What is it? Where is it? What's it called? What is it for? What does it do? What Plato and
Aristotle would call the thing's
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it said articles should "mention landmarks" but exclude telephone numbers and prices, and exclude advice on the best places to visit. Since then, the wording has been expanded and tweaked here and there, but the meaning has changed little. Exclude the changeable, the ephemera: phone numbers, prices,
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Per Dennis
Bratland's !vote just above. I'd like to see more history, and perhaps the linking to the ephemera could be handled better, but there's no need for deletion here. Transit infrastructure is a vitally important part of urban life, and thus a general encyclopedia should cover it. "Knowledge
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If it was canvassing, it was not effective. (I was pinged and !voted keep). :) Colton, pinging random specific people is often frowned upon because it's easily confused with (or overlaps with) canvassing. The best thing to do is to leave concise, neutral messages on discussion pages like a relevant
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mean that we delete otherwise notable and valid information just because it could also possibly be useful to travelers (though I don't see how it really could be used as such without timetables, addresses, fare info, etc...which, as with most NOTDIR issues, we would just remove those details rather
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AfDs (albeit both were over a decade ago). One of the arguments then was "some things are encyclopedic to some but not to others" and I'm inclined to agree with that. I would ask folks to take a look at those AfDs and the deletion reviews linked there as well. My reasons for backing this article is
1233:
Agreed, so many of the complaints seem focused on bus route details, which could be excised if a consensus of knowledgeable editors decide that's not appropriate for this topic. That's a matter for informed and targeted editing, not wiping out a page. I think on the OTHERSTUFF issue, the fact that
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for the following reason(s). At the first glance, it passes GNG and by virtue of being an FL, it clearly is a page of high quality. However, I got around to checking other cities. New York seems to have pages on List of Bus routes by borough. There's one for
Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, et al. But
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status in 2010 and remains a featured list today says to me that the premise of the article is fundamentally sound and the article itself is well done. If the objection is to links to stale route sources, those links could be updated or even perhaps deleted. But deleting the whole article seems an
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As explained above, the article is about all the lines operated by the SFMR and this specifically includes its many bus lines. The SFMR operates a variety of transport and they have much the same function and purpose: wheeled transport moving passengers from A to B along a route. The idea that
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This page isn't going to get removed, nor is there a consensus that it needs significant improvement in order to be kept. That's the whole point. The consensus is that it is not a "travel guide", whatever you think that means, and that was the same consensus 13 years ago, as that AFD was a clear
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I have several books with substantial coverage (1 or more chapters) listing and describing the specific lines (not merely discussing the system or its history, but specific lines). Broader histories that discuss specific lines, and non-travel-guide information about current individual lines, are
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Not a Travel guide (details of bus/train service are not pertinent here) . Knowledge (XXG) is not a information database (route infomation for buses, trams, municipal railways) .This page should be deleted . Once deleted, users can get transit route information on the local transit site which is
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of page is well established as desirable for inclusion in
Knowledge (XXG). Yes, OTHERSTUFF exists, but this stuff has repeatedly been kept by the community at AFD, and surviving an FAL review is even more significant. None of the nominators rationales, not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or
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more or less the same. This article acts as an index. It's primary intent is for tram routes (or cable car if you like it), which is fixed infrastructure. Subsequently it extends to bus routes, which ideally shouldn't be in this article with the current title. That's all. --
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431:. If this article has been vetted by multiple editors and not only be found to be encyclopedic but worthy of featured list status--for 8 years, that is a strong consensus. A contested interpretation of WP:NOT is a weak argument for overturning such consensus. --
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There was 13 years to improve this page, but people who want to look up travel in SF for each route should be directed to the agency website which shows a live GPS map, frequency of each bus and stops. Been told many times
Knowledge (XXG) not a travel guide.
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And this
Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion shall last longer than last nomination to allow more users to review the direction of this Page. No way posting travel details for buses like "36th avenue, 37th avenue and 38th avenue" can be allowed.
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this is not a one-off page but rather part of a longstanding, and systematic attempt to document transit infrastructure in major cities around the world is evidence of a project-wide consensus among many more editors than those who drive by AFDs.
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whims of editors who hate list articles for some reason or another. If
Knowledge (XXG) starts deleting featured articles it is a very bad sign to the public that deletionism is going to extremes and that even the best articles are not safe
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I prefer improvement over deletion but so far I've found nothing convincing although in many AFDs people find things I do not which could easily be the case here, The nominator would've performed BEFORE although agreed they should've said
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I don't think you're really reading the tenor of the discussion here correctly, but in any event the list's talk page is the proper place for you to raise your editing suggestions and try to establish consensus for them.
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this page should not be deleted as it is a notable topic with much coverage in reliable sources such as reliable book sources. It has been extensively reviwed as a high quality article and should not be subject to the
961:- Having major articles like this isn't a valid reason for keeping this, Can you please provide a policy based reason for !keeping, GNG is so far not met nor is BASIC so if you have any others I'l all ears. –
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28 19th Avenue
Inbound Terminal Van Ness and North Point | Outbound Terminal Daly City BART - 23 Monterey Inbound Terminal Palou and Third Outbound Terminal Great Highway and Sloat/Sloat and 47th Avenue)
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13 years from last nominations should of hinted "improvements", but still looks like same as before. I agreed there should be improvement (to distant away fro being travel guide), a merge into this page -
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1518:. You must be joking: this is 100% guide material, which belongs on Muni's own web site. If the Keep voters really and truly think this is salvageable, move it to Draft space so they can prove it. --
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properties. The traits without which it would no longer be itself. Perhaps external links to train schedules are better off lower down in the page than up in the main tables, but that's
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I am not a proponent of PRODD Good or
Feautured Articles before reassessment is done. But from what I see from this is a travel guide. Having schedule pdfs on it is wholly inappropriate.
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this is no less of an encyclopaedic list than when it was nominated for very similar reasons (and nearly unanimously kept) in 2006. There is plenty of evidence that the topic meets
1707:. I have no idea why this article on railway lines features a list of bus routes - these may or may not be notable and should either be split to a seperate article or deleted.--
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932:: This nomination makes no sense. While the links to the actual schedule may seem superflous, nearly every other major city transit system has an article similar to this.
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info to the parent page under route names as the most reasonable place to put the information. Add a link to direct users to the agency travel guides for routes -
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1558:. There simply is no consensus that NOTTRAVELGUIDE = NOTTRANSITCOVERAGE; quite the contrary both as demonstrated in this AFD and in the broader community.
410:- Being on "featured list" does not void Knowledge (XXG) guidelines. I agree, some information like the background should be kept and moved to this page -
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1550:. These recent discussions, which soundly reject the notion that NOTDIR excludes transit system/transportation-related lists, should also be considered:
1217:. I do think, however, that the inclusion of bus routes in an article on railway lines is odd and needs examining, but AFD is not the place to do that.
1268:" If the name of the authority seems anomalous then people who are bothered by this should take it up with them. They might also complain to the "
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as no different to a bus route list - I cannot find any evidence of notability nor can I find any indepth coverage - Closest we get to that is maps,
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and is not simply a travel directory. This does not exclude the possibility that the article could be improved, but that is not an issue for AfD.
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then just because New York has a page, doesn't mean San Franciso gets to have one. I get it. Now List of Bus Routes in London has survived not
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That why i request Articles for deletion remain open longer, because something 13 years ago is still here. The Travel Guide principles.
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and "Travel Guide Table for each Route can be a drop down table.The Agency also already setup a "Travel Guide" for riders to look up -
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heavily maintained by the agency them self, if a route been changed. The SFMTA Website provides up to date and accurate information.
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1761:. NOTDIR does not apply. It does not require any significant change, either. Put into words better by several others above. --
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Knowledge (XXG):Village pump (policy)/Archive 141#RFC: Should Knowledge (XXG) have lists of transportation service destinations?
1379:(XXG) is not a travel guide" means that we're not in the business of restaurant reviews. But we do write about how cities work.
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649:. Most of the content (with exception to the links to the route maps and schedules) can easily be moved to the parent article.
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783:- If you could replace each and every "schedule" and "maps" with actual reliable sources I'd be more than happy to keep .... –
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Railway lines are notable like canals and major highways partly because of the physical infrastructure on the ground per
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Per Pi3.14 this seems quite frivolous; listings of train and bus lines are quite standard on Knowledge (XXG) (such as
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Here a example of "Transit Guide on Knowledge (XXG) similar to "List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines " "
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There are actually no featured bus line lists on Knowledge (XXG), so I'm going to try to make this the first one.
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Per nominator and i can see speedy keep from repeated speedy keep comments which is unacceptable to wikiepdia.
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These are details of streets of stops or final stops. Something provided in SFMTA Routes and Stops website.
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one FL has already been deleted (That AFD was in 2009 so whether anyone knew it was a FL is anyones guess),
1749:) this is especially confusing with this title, and not just to me it seems. --12:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
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557:- Knowledge (XXG) is not a travel guide. The fact that this is a featured list is no reason to keep it.
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page in the past. Rule of thumb anyway. I don't think there was any harm done here, regardless. —
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I am not an expert on these sort of transport articles, but the fact that this was promoted to
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1099:- Article is a list of public transportation routes which are as permanent as permanent is. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Yes I remember now that US English has bus routes as "lines" (well, some of the time anwyay:
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The harassment claim is invalid accusation. This page is a Travel Guide. What is this
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469:. I fail to see why bus routes being on their websites makes it invalid to be here.
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Articles for deletion/List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines (2nd nomination)
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/List_of_San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway_lines
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is a transit authority which operates a variety of lines, not just railways. The
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scientific journal, apply. The article is none of those things, and against that
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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Herald_Street_station&oldid=820997875
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Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review/Log/2018 February 9#Adria Airways destinations
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actually suggests a travel guide external link as the right way to do it. --
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Thanks Andrew, I hadn't clocked that it was part of the authority's name.
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as well as passing the bar if it were considered just a sub-article of
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No, but consensus is policy and is part of one of our 5 pillars. See
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13 years ago this page was proposed for deletion and somehow failed.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway#Route_names
1272:" as the majority of its network (55%) is not actually underground!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway#Route_names
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https://en.wikipedia.org/San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway#Route_namee
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List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines Page Improvement Plan
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Articles for deletion/List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines
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Article is well-written and sourced, and covers a notable subject.
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is good alternative option. Most of content shall be merged into
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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is a museum only open one day a month for only four hours. The
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departure schedules, business hours. There are exceptions: the
52:. The majority presented cogent arguments that the topic meets
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https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_New_York_City_Subway_services
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per Dennis and Andrew D. Also willing to work on it as with
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as a reason for keeping an article in a deletion discussion.
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is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal
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Fails NOTTRAVELGUIDE (to a certain point) and GNG/BASIC. –
1595:"keep". You simply aren't understanding the discussions.
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Log/2019 January 5
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widely available in book and online sources (including
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trains are ok but buses are not seems to be an absurd
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https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/muni/routes-stops
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Being a FL isn't a reason to keep and as can be seen
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This some sort of public stunt. Its random invites.
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unnecessarily extreme response to stale sources. --
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list of Transportation-related deletion discussions
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739:this highly detailed analysis of service proposals
1747:Category:Lists_of_bus_routes_in_the_United_States
1508:). Is there a specific Transportation Wiki page?
1080:Category:Lists of bus routes in the United States
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1462:Possible Template change for the list of routes.
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508:McLaren Park (Visitacion Valley Middle School)
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820:If you could improve it that would be fab. –
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573:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
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1504:Just note, my stance remains at (
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889:). I have transcluded it to
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103:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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1405:Request Deletion Closure'
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32:Please do not modify it.
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986:
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944:
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900:Talk to my owner
896:
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831:
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579:
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514:NX Judah Express
442:
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98:
34:
1806:
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1788:deletion review
1465:to be discussed
1434:
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1345:Dennis Bratland
1337:WP:SURMOUNTABLE
1182:
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48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
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5:
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1710:Pontificalibus
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1657:Colton Meltzer
1623:WP:IDONTLIKEIT
1615:
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1582:Colton Meltzer
1545:
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1470:Colton Meltzer
1467:
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1447:major overhaul
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1423:Colton Meltzer
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1391:
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1183:Rhododendrites
1162:Colton Meltzer
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1065:Metropolitan90
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1007:Colton Meltzer
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980:User:Davey2010
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684:Colton Meltzer
662:
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510:
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743:Pi.1415926535
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535:Please avoid
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383:featured list
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197:Find sources:
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44:
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33:
27:
26:
19:
1779:
1777:
1758:
1700:
1671:
1653:WP:NOTTRAVEL
1649:
1648:still fails
1645:
1642:WP:NOTTRAVEL
1617:
1602:
1596:
1565:
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1547:
1515:
1505:
1493:
1487:
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1311:WP:NOTTRAVEL
1306:
1293:
1288:
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1241:
1235:
1224:
1219:
1210:
1201:
1197:
1176:
1140:
1121:
1113:
1096:
1075:
1060:
1048:
1044:
1027:
988:
969:
964:
959:User:Vertium
938:
929:
912:
885:to the log (
878:
844:
828:
823:
791:
786:
759:
723:
718:
700:
671:
667:
642:
631:
625:
620:
616:
589:
554:
517:
513:
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487:WP:NOTTRAVEL
482:
454:
407:
378:
373:
372:
353:
349:
328:
316:
299:
258:
257:
245:
239:
231:
224:
218:
212:
206:
196:
183:
94:
49:
47:
31:
28:
1628:Atlantic306
1198:Speedy keep
1028:Speedy Keep
930:Speedy keep
883:transcluded
604:Rsrikanth05
463:Metro Local
455:Speedy keep
435:Mark viking
390:Mark viking
329:Speedy keep
222:free images
1705:WP:GEOLAND
1381:XOR'easter
1363:Cards84664
1333:accidental
917:Trillfendi
516:(goes to)
506:(goes to)
504:56 Rutland
496:(goes to)
494:37-Corbett
317:CASSIOPEIA
300:CASSIOPEIA
1784:talk page
1729:Andrew D.
1725:prejudice
1688:Thryduulf
1341:WP:ELLIST
1329:essential
1274:Andrew D.
1215:gazetteer
1148:Andrew D.
1128:Andrew D.
1076:Weak Keep
804:Charles01
781:Charles01
764:Charles01
578:Spiderone
560:Spiderone
542:Spiderone
37:talk page
1786:or in a
1680:WP:LISTN
1289:Spinning
1264:wrote, "
1220:Spinning
1118:WP:LISTN
1101:Jax 0677
993:and done
943:and done
621:does not
471:Reywas92
181:View log
122:glossary
54:WP:LISTN
39:or in a
1763:Doncram
1644:. Does
1598:postdlf
1561:postdlf
1548:Comment
1489:postdlf
1309:— When
1237:postdlf
1116:Passes
1061:Comment
985:Vertium
935:Vertium
913:Comment
903::Online
849:&
668:Comment
627:postdlf
483:Comment
408:Comment
350:Comment
228:WP refs
216:scholar
154:protect
149:history
99:New to
1676:WP:GNG
1520:Calton
1516:Delete
1506:Delete
1435:(talk)
1368:(talk)
1331:, not
1262:kurykh
1068:(talk)
1045:Delete
1032:TH1980
887:step 3
701:Delete
651:Ajf773
555:Delete
429:WP:5P4
263:WP:not
259:Delete
200:Google
158:delete
58:RL0919
1294:Spark
1225:Spark
1207:WP:5P
1097:Keep
965:Davey
824:Davey
817:that,
787:Davey
719:Davey
672:merge
643:Merge
243:JSTOR
204:books
188:Stats
175:views
167:watch
163:links
16:<
1767:talk
1759:Keep
1733:talk
1692:talk
1678:and
1672:Keep
1661:talk
1650:some
1632:talk
1618:Keep
1604:talk
1586:talk
1567:talk
1554:and
1537:talk
1524:Talk
1495:talk
1474:talk
1430:SITH
1419:Keep
1413:talk
1385:talk
1376:Keep
1358:Keep
1349:talk
1313:was
1307:Keep
1278:talk
1252:The
1243:talk
1202:type
1177:this
1166:talk
1152:talk
1141:Note
1132:talk
1114:Keep
1105:talk
1036:talk
1011:talk
970:2010
921:talk
893:. —
858:talk
829:2010
808:talk
792:2010
768:talk
760:Keep
747:talk
724:2010
710:here
688:talk
670:The
655:talk
633:talk
617:Keep
608:talk
597:but
590:Keep
525:talk
461:and
439:Talk
437:}} {
433:{{u|
419:talk
394:Talk
392:}} {
388:{{u|
379:Keep
362:talk
337:talk
283:talk
261:per
236:FENS
210:news
171:logs
145:talk
141:edit
62:talk
50:keep
1727:.
1425:.
1187:\\
1090:\\
741:.)
682:.
645:to
599:two
595:one
250:TWL
179:– (
1769:)
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1570:)
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1498:)
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1398:.
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1351:)
1280:)
1246:)
1213:a
1211:is
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1146:.
1134:)
1126:.
1107:)
1051:AD
1038:)
1013:)
923:)
860:)
810:)
770:)
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690:)
657:)
636:)
610:)
575:.
527:)
512:*
502:*
492:*
489:?
421:)
364:)
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64:)
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441:}
417:(
396:}
335:(
281:(
254:)
246:·
240:·
232:·
225:·
219:·
213:·
207:·
202:(
194:(
191:)
184:·
177:)
139:(
124:)
120:(
60:(
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