781:: While this page needs to be pruned to remove items not directly related to the operation or background of the Council, folks need to keep in mind that many local BSA Councils like this one has limited, trained or coached people to maintain and observe their site. Instead of deleting the site, recommend that people contact the Council and ask them to provide more information than what is found by viewing the website. Stray comments from people in opposition of the BSA or their policies should be removed to maintain the neutrality of the site.
383:, populate it with references to a website run by same, and make a nice little walled garden full of sub societies, important members, and annual events, and it wouldn't change that I literally just made the group up. Article quality is orthogonal to article includeability. No matter how good an article, it should not be kept if it is about a non-notable subject. Any article whose subject we can determine whose subject is notable should be kept (unless it is a copyvio or just so cluttered with cruft as to deserve
1297:, Knowledge (XXG) custom needs to be taken into consideration, too. The Scouting WikiProject has had a long-standing interest in improving Council articles. Each Council is its own 501c(3) non-profit corporate entity, having a board of directors, budget, and camp properties. Typically, a council spans many counties and has several thousand members. The South Florida Council has 40,000 members serving a region having a population of almost 5 million, for example.
1207:
community. But the sourcing present in the article and the sources linked in this page are (for the most part) not **about** the South
Florida Council. They mention it in the context of other topics — a natural disaster in south Florida, or a story about the Boy Scouts in general, etc. they are useful for corroborating / verifying information about the Council, and again I commend the work spent here, but they don’t establish that it is notable.
1853:
1480:. His analysis of the sources provided, which largely matches my analysis, is that they are all trivial mentions in articles that are mostly about other things. I found several articles from local papers in Florida that were simply minutes of scout council meetings. They do no more to establish notability than do the other sources we have dug up.
1339:
order for an organizational entity to pass the GNG--except for secondary schools. Councils are not like secondary schools. These articles you point at, not a single one of them says anything substantial about the council. One or two of them point at grants, requested or received. One has a few membership numbers. That's it.
1236:? I think all the articles above show a lot of coverage. The sources are reliable. The sources are independent of the council. Many of the sources are primary, but may also be classed as secondary. A 100 year old non-profit that has had a significant impact on a large region of a state, surely qualifies as notable. --
1401:
are thus unquestionably relevant. Interestingly enough, I did contact the
Council to see if they had old newspaper clippings in their archives from the 1910s-1930s regarding the Council's founding and merger history, but all those records were lost when Wilma destroyed the building housing the archives.
1651:
for a check, but it will be denied immediately. If you're wondering how I can say this with such certainly, it's because I am a CheckUser and we don't honor requests for IP checks, esp. not if there is no evidence. (Like, seriously--who do you think this person is, and based on what evidence? Without
1400:
Please take a fresh look at the revised article, which now has much less reliance on self-pub and OR than before the AfD prompted the rewrite and search for RS refs to meet GNG. Some have now been incorporated into the article, especially as concerns the hurricane recovery at this
Council's camps and
966:
citations which don't even namecheck the subject at all, but are present solely to verify a fact that's entirely tangential to the topic's own notability or lack thereof. For example, a statement of where the person was born might be "referenced" to a source which verifies that the named town exists,
315:
I hate to admit, but it looks all the sources we used were just from the group's website. It doesn't even look like they were any passing references to it even in local media. I'd recommend deleting this or redirecting it to a main Boy Scouts page if there is one that covers BSA regional councils at
1611:
Of the three that are available on the internet, I am concerned about the independence of
Charity Navigator's page. The other two are trivial mentions. Based on what the book is supporting, I think it is also a trivial mention. The last one looks like one of the sources already discussed. I saw a
1338:
gets that privilege. Is there a secondary sources that explains when and how if was founded? Who the most important people were on the board or in the organization? What its financials are? What all things it operates, and why, and how? These are the things we expect secondary sources to deliver in
1307:
the article barely meets GNG. The camps owned and operated by a council are part of the council's article, rather than having separate standalone articles. News media coverage of
Hurricane Irma's destruction of the South Florida Council's camp on Scout Key is therefore specifically relevant to this
1268:
I'm not missing the point. There is some subjectiveness in what is primary and what is secondary. I do think that the sources discuss the subject, especially the ones listed above not integrated into the article. I agree that this is a waste of time. We should close the discussion, keep the article
1886:
As noted above, a lot -- nearly all, actually -- of the sources presented actually are about other topics (often articles that are really about the Boy Scouts and not specifically about the
Council) but I think that there's enough meat on the bone to support the article. This is definitely a tough
1880:
I'm really impressed by the additional sourcing on this. I still think it's very debatable that this organization is notable per the strict letter of the GNG (which admittedly is frustratingly vague) but I do think that, given the track record of specific citations to it over a long period of time
1839:
These new refs are, for the most part, independent secondary sources which, taken together, do respond to Drmies' concerns regarding what GNG rightly expects of an org's article, e.g., its most important leaders (and corporate sponsors, in the case of a non-profit), its budget, and especially what
642:: I am assuming that the sources added by evrik are the best the internet has to offer. They are, to be blunt, horrible. I think the sources might establish notability for the scout camp run by the South Florida Council, but everything about the South Florida Council is either passing mention or
1311:
Likewise, repeated news media mention in reliable sources about the South
Florida Council, as it relates to news developments and controversies, also contribute to notability. That these reliable sources consider the Council Executive's statements worthy enough to quote as newsworthy, further
1206:
is a policy or that the article should be deleted for that reason. My point, as I said earlier, is that the article’s sources are mostly about other stuff that are only incidentally related to South
Florida Council. No one is disputing that the Council exists, or that it does good work in the
1666:, holy moly, you did a fine, fine job. I still do not think (having just looked over the new version and some of the new sources) that this council passes the GNG, but if it gets through this AfD it will be because of your work, and I appreciate it. If you ever fly down to MGM or
1245:
You're missing the point. No, primary sources may NOT be classed as secondary. That the non-profit has had an impact should be measurable. And no, this is not a lot of coverage. Moreover, NONE of the sources discuss the organization. If you don't understand the difference between
997:- Thank you for the analysis. That was a fair amount of work. Looking at what you have posted I have two thoughts, first many of these citations are about specific facts and not on the broader council. Second, the sheer number of mentions of the council show its notability. --
1013:? Hardly. First, refbomb is not policy, it is an essay. Second, I stripped most of the cruft from the page, and then started to find references relating to each of the different sections. The subject is notable. Can you imagine where the article would be now if
292:
We are not a directory, and all this is is a substitute for the group's website. There are no secondary sources, nor should we expect any. Let's be clear: there is no inherent notability for such organizational units, and subjects need to pass the
902:; if we're generous we can see content about the Council: "Since then, the South Florida Council, Boy Scouts of America, have cleared away fallen Australian Pines and ripped out a decades-old water system." If we are really generous.
1494:
We have engaged all the point. However, since Drmies has refused to acknowledge that we have made any progress. it's hard to advance the discussion. The council is notable the citations are good, the page should not be deleted.
206:
1439:
demands that the sources provided have some substance so that notability can be established, and Drmies's last point on this has not been refuted - but it is possible (per JGHowes) the last edits did find such
1302:
Examining some of the refs cited here by evrik (but not yet integrated into the article) since the AfD was first listed do support GNG. Whilst individually the refs are not highly persuasive, taken in the
356:. As for merging--there are no secondary sources that cover the council as such; recently added source only address one person and the camps, and that does not help the notability of the council.
1844:
applies, but rather that there has been more than mere passing mention that the news media has deemed newsworthy in a major metropolitan area, thereby meeting the notability requirements of GNG.
1218:
myself and tried to make a case that it is notable but I haven’t been able to justify it with the information I’ve found so far. If you can do that, then I will support keeping the article.
478:, which was supposed to be a link to "Jose Dante Parra Herrera (1997-09-14). "Thomas Tatham, 86, longtime Boy Scouting Booster". Miami Herald." contains a lengthy in-depth discussion of the
956:
as part of some users' good faith attempts at repairing it. Of the links provided, most don't really mention the subject at all. The few who do fall squarely into the examples provided at
499:
The findagrave reference has the text of the Hearld article listed on it, if you don't want to pay to read it. So, that is four of the twelve. Want to try and take down the other eight? --
52:. While the article has seen considerable improvement it over the course of this AfD there remains no consensus that the sourcing demonstrates notability after considerable discussion.
159:
238:
200:
1215:
1358:
you haven't made your case. The facts aren't with you. Why don't you work on revamping the article instead of spending so much time trying to refute what others have said. --
886:--it's not a secondary source, it doesn't discuss the Council. "Camp Everglades is in the Pine Rocklands of Everglades National Park" is not contended, and it is irrelevant.
1910:, however, if whomever decides to close this goes the other way, I'm going to suggest that the content is merged and a redirect is left in place of this page. Merge it to:
278:
1881:
over multiple independent resources, that it probably does merit enough verifiable independent coverage to meet the specific notability guidelines for the organizations.
258:
370:
You should note that it is "IMHO." Clearly, the number of references, the size of the article, it's subpages and the links to the article establish it's notability. --
617:
That doesn't seem fair. Sweet68camaro did not say or imply that you didn't read the article; they just stated their opinion and there was no assumption of bad faith.
508:
No, it's a site where you can order one. You didn't give a page number, by the way. So, at best, you will have verified, maybe, that the council number is 84? Bravo.
972:
I respect the work that editors have put into this article, and I think there's some value in folding some of the information into the main page referenced above by
917:, and if we're generous, "It is expected to reopen by January, according to Jeff Hunt, executive director of the South Florida Council of Boys Scouts of America."
1254:--well, I think I said this before and I am tired of repeating myself: these are very basic concepts and your refusal to accept them means I'm wasting my time.
976:. I hate deleting articles, especially ones that contain a lot of useful information, but even with the expanded sourcing I just can't see this as passing the
91:
1849:
Drmies, I was at Gunter AFB as an ROTC cadet marching and doing PT under a blazing hot July sun, so I'll take you up on that kind offer anytime but summer!
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1119:
Sorry for the incredibly convoluted links. Two are to a scouting magazine, and the third is to an analysis of scouting's response to homosexuality.
868:
on the website of the Rotary Club, which offers "He helped finance the rebuilding of the Boy Scout Camp in the
Florida Keys"--and that is all it is.
136:
1647:, two things. a. I asked you to stop pinging me; you should respect that. b. Do not EVER remove an IP's comment for such specious reasons. You can
1616:
coverage. I applaud JGHowes and Evrik for their research, but, ultimately, I don't think we have found any sources that actually show notability.
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citations which briefly namecheck the fact that the subject exists, but are not actually about the subject to any non-trivial degree
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In other words: mentions in secondary sources about the
Council: two. Discussion of the actual Council in secondary sources: zero.
1926:
I've added more to the history section for the 1910s-1930s, with old newspaper clippings cited from Library of Congress archives.
188:
850:
but ostensibly this is an obit on a member--no reason at all to believe it offers proper information that establishes notability.
921:
1214:. The length of the article and the number of sources included are not relevant to the analysis. I’ve gone through it, and the
814:
1435:
Per the last comment. Based on my reading the concerns about the sourcing being too thin have not been adequately addressed -
1697:. I just went and stripped all of the pinging templates out of the discussion. My reason for removing the comments are found
1569:
1034:
Looking things over, I found 3 sources that are more than name checks, though they do not look like they are very much more.
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100:
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mention that this used to be the "Dade County Council", but searching for that in newspaper archives gets only routine,
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40:
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Some IP editor who only comments on deletion debates has chosen to comment here. I may ask for a sockpuppet check. --
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1662:, thank you also. Yes, I do believe my comments have not been properly addressed. Having said that, I have to say,
889:"Wilma Ravages Boy Scout Camp"--a newspaper article about a camp after a storm; it has 413 words, according to the
123:
541:
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1767:(arguably, since it's a magazine published by the National headquarters in Texas, "independent" may be a stretch)
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I stand corrected. I’ll see if I can find the correct link. Until then, this link offers some of the same data :
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1334:, you are suggesting a kind of inherent notability for such organizational entities. I still do not see why a
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1719:, there are some other refs added in the last couple of days, besides those enumerated above by Rockphed:
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352:, I appreciate your note. It's just very unlikely that any of the councils at this level will pass the
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the org operates (i.e., the camps, in this instance). This is not to claim inherent notability or
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that, it will always be denied, even if it's an account and not an IP.) Also, IPs are people too.
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Knowledge (XXG) should not have articles that are sourced only to an organization's own web page.
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1293:
tag is warranted, but not outright deletion. With all due respect to my esteemed fellow admin
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590:
Everyone is allowed their opinion. Maybe sweet68camaro thinks you haven't read the article. --
75:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
1952:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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demonstrates that keeping this article best serves Knowledge (XXG)'s value to the reader.
930:, but a web page archived from the O-Shot-Caw Lodge is not an independent secondary source.
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832:, which publishes numbers on NGOs (this is a website that reports primary information).
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There are now ten different sources, and only one of them are from the organization. --
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340:. However, I just removed all the redundant citations to the council's own website. --
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this article has been recently updated and is well sourced. This is a speedy keep. --
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but completely fails to support the claim that the person was actually born there.
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One thing that might be helpful is if you described why the article passes the
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had spent the same effort improving the article as trying to get it deleted? --
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I refute this as you simply bringing up the same arguments again and again. --
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The angelfire site is where a copy of the published book is available online.
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474:. The Wilma and Irma material isn't about the council. It is possible that
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on the Scouting website about the appointment of a person to the Council.
660:
There are these as well, I just havern't had time to go through them all:
1729:"City of Miami, Boy Scouts, USCG and Auxiliary Attain Bicentennial Goal"
872:
1511:: So, here are the new sources that have been added in the last 2 days.
952:- I think that this article may have inadvertently fallen victim to
475:
1174:
As I said, I don't think they are much more than passing mentions.
845:
1476:
Insofar as Drmies has been refuted it is only because you are not
1563:
Flagler's Folly: The Railroad That Went to Sea and Was Blown Away
1948:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1139:
Thank you. Looking at them, it appears one is listed twice. --
854:
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
523:
1795:"Cub Scout gets a souped-up ride to school by NASCAR driver"
1670:, ping me and I'll buy you a cup of coffee or an ice cream.
379:
I could write ten-thousand words of flowery prose about the
1906:
I see that at this point, the discussion has bent towards,
1601:
Nikki Waller (2005-11-27). "Wilma Ravages Boy Scout Camp".
461:
this article can be salvaged. More sources can be found. --
1693:
I haven't pinged you since you asked me not to. FYI I did
893:, and I doubt that much of that is devoted to the Council.
1308:
article and indeed demonstrates the Council's notability.
753:"South Florida parents sue after Boy Scout hiking death"
1694:
149:
145:
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877:(to state the obvious: this isn't about the Council).
409:. It would have been funny had there been one. ;-) --
1376:
Because there is nothing to write. Stop pinging me.
1443:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
846:"Well this link goes nowhere and should be removed"
227:
239:list of Organizations-related deletion discussions
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1960:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1816:Adams, Carter; Self, Aaron (November 28, 2017).
277:Note: This discussion has been included in the
257:Note: This discussion has been included in the
237:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1735:. U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary. June 1976. p. 35
1542:"Boy Scouts of America, South Florida Council"
1058:Johnson, Scott F.; Redfield, Sarah E. (2015).
1038:Johnson, Scott F.; Redfield, Sarah E. (2015).
279:list of Scouting-related deletion discussions
8:
259:list of Florida-related deletion discussions
107:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
1887:one though and I can still see both sides.
1216:WP:Notability (organizations and companies
782:
276:
256:
236:
1912:Scouting in Florida#South Florida Council
688:"JCCS BREAK RANKS WITH BAN ON BOY SCOUTS"
338:Scouting_in_Florida#South_Florida_Council
1579:Walker, Christine (September 21, 1997).
1061:Education Law: A Problem-Based Approach
1041:Education Law: A Problem-Based Approach
1793:Piccardo, Rebeca (November 13, 2014).
1106:
1096:
965:
961:
316:a high level (i haven't checked yet).
1078:Dyck Price (November–December 1993).
727:"TAX FUNDS FOR SCOUTS PULLS EMOTIONS"
336:The protocol wold be to merge it to:
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1850:
1773:"Charity to stop funding Boy Scouts"
1654:Well, now that I am here, thank you
1581:"Thomas L. Tatham, Boy Scout Leader"
470:I hope they're better sources than
675:"GAY BAN GARNERS SCOUTS $ 200,000"
403:World Federation of Rose Societies
24:
1757:. March–April 1993. pp. 37 and 63
1467:had been consistently refuted. --
1202:To clarify, I am not saying that
837:"Order your book on patches here"
1851:
1519:Fishman, Scott (April 5, 2009).
1150:Pryce, Dick (March–April 1993).
714:"SCOUTS FEAR CUTS TO RUN DEEPER"
599:Maybe sweetcamaro needs to read
92:Introduction to deletion process
1771:Diaz, Madeline (May 14, 2003).
1919:14:59, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
1897:02:16, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
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1002:13:05, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
990:01:04, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
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859:, this one the real directory.
855:"Here is another BSA web page"
801:16:43, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
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656:14:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
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251:03:23, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
1:
1521:"Scouts break ground on site"
1283:The article needs work and a
882:"God only knows what this is"
740:"Scouts break ground on site"
738:Fishman, Scott (2009-04-05).
699:Sanchez, Danny (2005-07-26).
686:DOZIER, MARIAN (2001-01-27).
1586:Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
1212:General Notability Guideline
1156:. Scouting. pp. 36–37, 62–63
907:"Another camp after a storm"
898:"Another camp after a storm"
751:Mayo, Michael (2010-07-24).
725:O'MATZ, MEGAN (2000-09-12).
712:O'MATZ, MEGAN (2000-09-17).
673:O'MATZ, MEGAN (2001-12-18).
1941:12:18, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
1565:. Slumbering Giant. p. 76.
1561:Bethel, Rodman J. (1987).
1153:The Day Andrew Came to Town
873:"Boy Scout camp after Irma"
808:A brief analysis of sources
574:Knowledge (XXG):Speedy keep
482:--no, that's not possible.
82:(AfD)? Read these primers!
62:02:29, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
1977:
1269:and work to improve it. --
922:"What this is, is unclear"
524:http://thecouncilguide.com
407:Liechtenstein Rose Society
381:liechtenstein rose society
841:--that's all this can do.
824:"A report on the Council"
1950:Please do not modify it.
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711:
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32:Please do not modify it.
1148:Here is the last cite
472:this Angelfire website
1695:reference the removal
864:"An obit on a person"
116:South Florida Council
80:Articles for deletion
68:South Florida Council
1818:"Sawyer After Irma"
1478:engaging his points
912:New York Daily News
401:Sadly, I looked at
1749:"Hurricane Andrew"
1733:Navigator magazine
1433:Relisting comment:
701:"SCOUTING OPTIONS"
405:, and there is no
1937:
1867:
1822:The Burr Magazine
1754:Scouting magazine
1546:Charity Navigator
1459:
1412:
1323:
954:reference bombing
817:. 13 August 2018.
815:"A press release"
803:
787:comment added by
435:John Pack Lambert
288:
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97:Guide to deletion
87:How to contribute
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924:. Archived from
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900:. 25 June 2012.
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572:No. Please see
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1084:. LexisNexis.
1081:The Way it Was
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1064:. LexisNexis.
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1044:. LexisNexis.
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1656:Jo-Jo Eumerus
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1188:Thank you. --
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1924:More comment
1923:
1907:
1903:
1877:
1858:
1857:
1825:. Retrieved
1821:
1804:. Retrieved
1800:Miami Herald
1798:
1782:. Retrieved
1778:Sun-Sentinel
1776:
1759:. Retrieved
1752:
1737:. Retrieved
1732:
1716:
1664:User:JGHowes
1653:
1648:
1632:
1603:Miami Herald
1602:
1590:. Retrieved
1584:
1562:
1550:. Retrieved
1530:. Retrieved
1526:Sun-Sentinel
1524:
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1332:User:JGHowes
1314:
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1201:
1160:20 September
1158:. Retrieved
1152:
1080:
1060:
1040:
933:
926:the original
910:
891:Miami Herald
890:
789:Settummanque
783:— Preceding
778:
767:
757:Sun Sentinel
756:
744:Sun Sentinel
743:
731:Sun Sentinel
730:
718:Sun Sentinel
717:
705:Sun Sentinel
704:
692:Sun Sentinel
691:
679:Sun Sentinel
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50:no consensus
49:
47:
31:
28:
1295:user:Drmies
1015:user:DrMies
995:user:Drmies
950:user:Drmies
263:IntoThinAir
243:IntoThinAir
201:free images
1645:user:evrik
1571:0961470224
1463:I thought
1288:refimprove
1234:Notability
1204:WP:REFBOMB
1011:WP:REFBOMB
974:user:evrik
958:WP:REFBOMB
644:WP:routine
1954:talk page
1933:JGHowes
1889:Michepman
1863:JGHowes
1437:WP:SIGCOV
1408:JGHowes
1319:JGHowes
1305:aggregate
1220:Michepman
1109:ignored (
1099:cite book
982:Michepman
830:GuideStar
619:Michepman
350:Michepman
318:Michepman
54:Barkeep49
37:talk page
1956:or in a
1660:Rockphed
1618:Rockphed
1482:Rockphed
1440:sources.
1425:Relisted
1176:Rockphed
1121:Rockphed
964:and (2)
797:contribs
785:unsigned
648:Rockphed
603:, then.
389:Rockphed
160:View log
101:glossary
39:or in a
1904:Comment
1878:Comment
1717:Comment
1668:Maxwell
1633:Comment
1614:WP:MILL
1605:. p. 1.
1509:Comment
1336:council
1252:discuss
960:-- (1)
480:council
313:Comment
207:WP refs
195:scholar
133:protect
128:history
78:New to
1672:Drmies
1548:. 2017
1465:Drmies
1378:Drmies
1365:Drmies
1356:Drmies
1341:Drmies
1256:Drmies
1107:|work=
936:Drmies
640:Delete
605:Drmies
601:WP:AGF
578:Drmies
510:Drmies
484:Drmies
431:Delete
385:WP:TNT
358:Drmies
299:Drmies
179:Google
137:delete
1916:evrik
1703:evrik
1637:evrik
1497:evrik
1469:evrik
1369:evrik
1360:evrik
1271:evrik
1248:cover
1238:evrik
1190:evrik
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999:evrik
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449:evrik
411:evrik
372:evrik
342:evrik
283:evrik
222:JSTOR
183:books
167:Stats
154:views
146:watch
142:links
16:<
1914:. --
1908:keep
1893:talk
1829:2019
1808:2019
1786:2019
1763:2019
1741:2019
1701:. --
1699:here
1676:talk
1622:talk
1594:2019
1567:ISBN
1554:2019
1534:2019
1486:talk
1449:talk
1382:talk
1345:talk
1281:Keep
1260:talk
1250:and
1224:talk
1180:talk
1162:2019
1125:talk
1111:help
1086:ISBN
1066:ISBN
1046:ISBN
986:talk
940:talk
793:talk
779:Keep
652:talk
623:talk
609:talk
582:talk
561:Keep
550:talk
514:talk
488:talk
476:this
459:Keep
439:talk
393:talk
362:talk
322:talk
303:talk
281:. --
267:talk
247:talk
215:FENS
189:news
150:logs
124:talk
120:edit
58:talk
1842:IAR
1649:ask
978:GNG
354:GNG
295:GNG
229:TWL
158:– (
1895:)
1820:.
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1775:.
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1731:.
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.