Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (2nd nomination)

2283:- in fact, all the !delete in this AfD are from editors who when I nominated "Demonization of the Serbs" tried to !keep it. I've expanded this article which I didn't create in the first place, because it is a very notable subject about the Plav-Gusinje/Plava-Gucia region. I'll accept whatever decision the community ultimately makes, but it has to be part of an actual assessment of the subject. It strikes me as very contradictory in terms of policy judgment how the people who when I nominated an obvious and extreme POVFORK about "Demonization/Satanization" thought that it should be kept are the same editors who think that this article should be deleted. 1327:

sources that document this purported massacre, but has failed to do so, likely because such sources do not exist (certainly not through lack of effort or motivation). The only reliable sources (BI and Pacariz) speak of commemorations by activists, but do not document the existence of the massacre itself. They are misused. I also find arguments of the type "there is no coverage because this was a small massacre" to be absolutely ridiculous and contrived. 2,000 killed is not a small number, it is a HUGE number (comparable to the 8,000 killed in Srebrenica). To suggest that this was a minor event and that

2477:. I picked another descriptive title among the many that could be used. There is no "correct" title about events which haven't been assigned one in historiography. Many hundreds up to thousands of people were killed between the end of 1912 and the spring of 1913 in Plav-Gusinje during a forced conversion campaign which resulted in 12,000 people temporarily becoming Orthodox against their will. This campaign ended with the intervention of Austria-Hungary, which forced the Montenegrin king to proclaim freedom of religion again in the area. It's reasonable to name the killing of 800: --> 2765:

disagree with them doesn't promote community procedures. Anyone who hasn't made a comment here, can do that. It's incomprehensible to me that Alexikoua thinks that because editors who hadn't been involved in this discussion or the previous AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua), gave their opinion, Alexikoua him/herself can "vote again". I don't understand the point of the above comment, but this AfD needs a discussion which focuses on the article not on the national backgrounds of editors.

1771:. That's an argument for starting a move discussion for the descriptive title which represents the events best, not for asking for the article to be deleted. In the past days after the replies against !delete, the argument in favor of !delete has moved from "this never happened, so it should be deleted" to "this may have happened but there's no in-depth discussion so it should be deleted" and now to "this may have happened, but it refers to "killings" instead of "massacres", so it should be deleted". The 2nd nomination should be retracted.-- 1908:. The article needs work, much work to be done, though to addreess several issues it has. The nom has not provided any viable rationale why the article should be nominated for deletion a second time. After some work is done, researching and adding more sources such as the ones posted above, then it can be better evaluated if the article can be merged or its topic be expanded to include closely related events such as later similar crimes in the same places. 2031:(ec) Maleschreiber: I am not "misinformed" at all. Fact is, you haven't found a single reliable source that unequivocally documents this massacre. All your sources so far are highly obscure Balkan sources, all from countries with an axe to grind against Serbia/Montenegro. I just don't buy it that international Balkan scholars miss what would have been one of the biggest massacres of the war. It just doesn't add up. 1099:(my first comment was on 06:55 12 May) and then on 14:55 12 May Antidiskriminator decided to comment on the DYKN). I didn't just learn about Ant.'s activity. I have nominated another article on AfD a few months ago too in which he was involved and it was deleted too. My comment stands correct and the closing admin is now aware of the editor's activity and content history. Now, we can certainly move on.-- 2853:. As for focuing on content, I've already shown this purported massacre is not substantiated by the literature. I can understand you really don't like me pointing out inconvenient facts, but someone's got to do it. Every recent AfD and RfC in this topic area has been successfully is plagued by an apparently well-coordinated ethnic bloc that never fails to show up and vote along party lines. 2374:. There were certainly forced conversations wherein some people were killed and, as you discuss with Alexikoua, maybe there should have been a rename discussion. I can't say that an article about violence being called a massacre should be kept if there was no clear consensus of a massacre, although the forced conversions and violence probably did happen. Do you want me to !vote keep because 2059:. Are these "highly obscure Balkan sources" (what's a "highly obscure Balkan source" really? A source either is RS or not, whether we personally know their work or not, is irrelevant) or "from countries with an axe to grind against Serbia/Montenegro" (this isn't even an argument about RS, but a personal attack against scholars, so you're into 2991:, and creation of such page is valid, and that judicial and/or multilateral international declarations are in no way only and/or necessary for validation and acceptance of the genocide occurrence, regardless of scope, location or era, and page creations, unless its really, really recent happening, so it's not covered thoroughly.-- 2872:

outside input. Every single !delete comment which followed the nominator's argument here, was a !keep there. Which !delete comment here wasn't involved as a !keep comment there? I stand to be proven wrong. And I highlight this because of the highly contradictory assessment of those two articles by the !delete here.

2419:

based on what bibliography says. In my opinion, it's very pedantic and irrelevant to argue that an article should be deleted because in picking the title one editor - based on sources that described how many hundreds of people were killed - picked the title "Massacres in X area in Y timeline". It's a

2369:

The issue here is which sources say what. In that other AfD, I felt that there were sufficient non-Balkan sources making the case that the Serbs were demonized. Those sources said so directly. Here, you have Balkan people with a dog in the fight alleging stuff. Regardless of what outlet published the

663:

The existing bibliography establishes notability beyond doubt.The claims about the humber of casualties range from 1,800 to 8,000. About the 700 killed in Previ Pass there is a complete list of the victims This is an event which a)is discussed in bibliography b)is mentioned in diplomatic documents of

2792:

If we're going to continue having this discussion, new arguments should be put forward for !delete, but repetition of the old ones doesn't highlight anything new. It just causes confusion because anyone can see in the article that nobody has "synthesized multiple sources to reach the conclusion that

2764:

Indeed, an admin can see who is uninvolved and who isn't in this topic and each opinion is judged accordingly (not on the basis of a !vote, but on the basis of an !argument). Calling someone "involved" because of their "national background" and calling for their opinions to be "canceled" because you

1724:

On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer

1376:

was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.

1375:

1321:

per lack of coverage in reliable sources. As Amanuensis Balkanicus explains very clearly, there is simply no mention of this rather large massacre in reliable sources. As far as I can see, we have activist schoolteachers, collections of primary documents, and an obscure symposium in Albania in 1993.

869:

I'm arguing that the range of the claims about the total number of killings of Albanians reaches up to 200k in total (not just by Serbo-Montenegrin armies), so 1,800 dead in Plav-Gusinje a very densely populated area at that time, is nothing out of the ordinary. The imam paid by the Montenegrin army

830:

Bajraktari's remarks were made at a symposium in Tirana in 1993, at a time when relations between Albanians and Serbs over Kosovo were strained to say the least. Balkan scholars weren't exactly paragons of academic excellence in the 1990s. On the contrary, the so-called scholarly institutions of all

548:

547:

488:

The sources do discuss this topic extensively, so it is notable. I will take some time to discuss some of the RS claims about the article, not because that discussion is related to this procedure, but because I just want to reply to the allegations by Balkanicus. Rexhep Dedushaj, is a historian from

1569:

scholarly source that investigates this purported massacre (as opposed to sources that merely mention the commemorations of something), and I will change my vote. This would have been the largest massacre in the Balkan Wars (let alone the fact that is unlikely that the entire Plav-Gusinje area even

1355:

More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of what they allege was genocide against their ancestors. The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to mark the anniversary of mass killings of

517:

2892:

Those who refused to convert, including some Catholics, were tortured or shot, for example a well-known Catholic priest who was killed for refusing to make the Orthodox sign of the cross. A report from 1914 of an international commission of enquiry set up by the Carnegie Endowment described how in

2739:

Neither you nor the nominator seem "uninvolved" in Balkan issues either. Let the admins decide which side is wrong like all the other AFDs. This discussion seems to be plagued by POV from both sides here, and as such an damin should have final say. A competend admin can see if someone has tried to

2572:

throughout this discussion. Claiming that bibliography doesn't exist when presented with full quotes is itself not a valid argument. You made the same claim a month ago when you first nominated this article to AfD. Many sources/full quotes later, you're making the same claim, but haven't assessed

2080:

I agree, it is clear that citations have been adequately recruited from both Balkan and non-Balkan (Muller for one) sources. What needs to stop is crude nationalized accusations based on scholars coming from "countries with an axe to grind with Serbia/Montenegro" (who has an axe to grind with tiny

1960:

1864:

also explains in detail many of the executions. Rastoder has a great job of gathering archival material, government orders and military dispatches about the events. How can some editors for the 2nd time say "this never happened" or "this happened, but isn't notable enough for a standalone article"

1326:

modern scholar to have documented it. The Balkans are a heavily studied area; there are dozens of scholars who focus on Balkan history and politics. Surely one of them would have verified the existence of this massacre and put his name to that? Maleschreiber has had plenty of time to find reliable

891:

and four times larger than all civilian casualties inflicted by the Chetniks during World War II. It would be almost on par with the genocide of Serbs in the NDH between 1941 and 1945 (which left 300k dead). 8k dead in Plav-Gusinje would make this the single largest massacre in Southeastern Europe

597:

Warfield's letter also addressed the claim, made at the time by Edith Durham, that the Montenegrins were persecuting Albanians who lived in their territory and driving them out of their villages. He reported that 2000 Albanians had come over the mountains from Gusinje and Plav and were refugees in

1904:

There are several reliable sources that mention crimes committed there at the time. For instance, Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin ("Montenegro Old and New: History, Politics, Culture, and the People") p. 72 mention 500 Muslims killed after they refused to convert. The authors cite as sources

1787:

For future reference 'forceful conversions and killing' does not equal 'massacre', but even the former description related to the claimed event. It's really sad that this is the only one RS you can provide here. However, feel free to make additional research on the subject and always follow wp:RS

2900:

The Montenegrin integration policy was characterized by a measure that was obviously not followed by the Serbian side: the forced baptism of Albanian and Slavic Muslims in the cities of Plav, Gusinje, Pec, and Djakovo. In an action agreed between several ministries, of which King Nikola Petrovic

2871:

The AfD is there for anyone to review who in that AfD who voted "keep" and even "speedy keep" (you) for a blatant POVFORK, here has been arguing for !delete. I've been pointing this out since the middle stage of the AfD..and then it got relisted because it was judged that there was no sufficient

2400:

2008:

906:

You can't compare single, localized massacres like the Srebrenica genocide with a series of massacres which happened over a period of time. You also can't go on to frame the question about the upper limit. Why are Balkan academic sources excluded? I'm pretty sure that the upper limit in Albanian

2771:

There is variation in the estimates about the total number of those killed in the massacres and those who underwent forced reconversion. (..) The total number of those forced to convert reached 12,000 and 800 who refused to do so were executed (..) In Plav, a total of about 500 who refused to

268:

of sources (some reliable, others not) to reach a certain conclusion, namely that the wartime suffering of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje was part of some larger massacre in which 1,800 were killed and 12,000 displaced. The killings described in this article would make this alleged

614:

An unfortunate contretemps occurred here during the Balkan War. When Montenegro captured the village of Plav from the Turks in 1912, they were greatly aided by a local Moslem priest, who joined the Orthodox Church and was appointed a major in the Montenegrin Army. His first action when left

562:

Elsie-Destani have published documents from the Balkan Wars and WWI about the situation of the Albanians in the Balkans. The fact that there are extensive primary documents that mention even the names of those killed in these events only proves its notability even more, it doesn't diminish

2081:

Montenegro? Aside from Serbian individuals who think it should be part of Serbia and Montenegrins are one people, not many people let alone entire countries... and this is a page about stuff that happened a century ago). As for coverage, to be honest I still have to examine the matter. --

2598:

The sources perfectly reflect what happened to the people from the region of Plav and Gusinje/Plava and Gucia. I don't see a reason why this article should be completely deleted since we can all agree that it represents a dark period for the people of this region, which should not be

952:- When I saw some claims about alleged massacres committed by the Montenegrin army during and immediately after the First Balkan War, I decided to investigate the topics and created two articles about two Montenegrin officials who allegedly committed/ordered those massacres. They are 2786:. No OR is needed to extract the content about the casualties and RS is used (Müller, Van Duin, Polackova). There's well-sourced attribution of particular claims wherever that is necessary. I won't post full quotes again, I've already placed 4 times Müller who concludes that 603:

Full quote (to establish the notability of the event - not as a source to be used because secondary modern bibliography, already in the article, explains the same event in much detail): In the primary sources of the era about the region this massacre appears in many of them.

892:

until the Bleiburg massacre 30 years later (30-50k dead) and on the same scale as Srebrenica in 1995. You would think Western academics and scholars would have written extensively about a massacre of such momentous magnitude had it actually taken place. Alas, they have not.

1029:

to explain someone's editing history. I haven't accused Antidiskriminator of anything. He is permanently blocked in Serbian wikipedia and he did write just a few days ago an article about "Demonization and Satanization of Serbs" which I nominated for deletion and it was

2768:

I do want to reply to AB's claim that there is "SYNTH" about the casualties in the article though- which I think is an argument which returns the discussion to its original subject and as such at least allows for a real discussion to happen. The full paragraph is

1394:

The behavior of Balkan politicians is meaningless as far as whether the event happened or not. For years Serbian politicians refused to acknolwedge Srebrenica, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Regarding BI, did you see the part where it says "of what they

1356:

Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. Bosniak organisations claim that more than 1,800 Muslims from Plav and the nearby municipality of Gusinje were killed and more than 12,000 of them forcibly converted to Christianity during the 1912-13 Balkan wars.

518:

2290:

section lists 13 sources. The first sources which were already included in the article have been extensively discussed above, but I want to mention some of the newer ones and I also need a clarification about which ones you consider to not be RS or "too

886:

Again, we're going off topic here, but which reliably published, peer-reviewed, non-Balkan academic source unequivocally claims that 200k Albanians were killed in the Balkan Wars? If true, this would be a slaughter larger in scale and in scope than the

2482:(s). Many historical events don't have a "correct" title which is the prevailing one in historiography. Debates about "correct" titles of events can't be turned into debates about the historicity/notability of the events, which undoubtedly happened.-- 91: 86: 2893:

1913 the Albanians were crushed in Kosovo and how "unarmed and innocent populations were massacred by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians."

1961:

233: 1469:

These are both articles written in academic journals and cover extensively the events. Zejnullahu (2006) is also very interesting because he has written about how the memory of these events has been expressed in folk songs in the

1599:. As user Maleschreiber demonstrated, the article is backed by enough sources. Furthermore, modern political recognition demonstrates that the events are significant and undisputed. The article should be maintained and expanded. 992:

Also, there is nothing "alleged" about either the killings or the forced conversion. There was a military court which put to trial part of the perpetrators and they were convicted. This is explained in detail in the article.

1408:

frantic searching). Where is the description of the massacre? Where are the bodies? 2,000 dead is a lot of bodies. Why isn't there a single scholar that investigated this "massacre", as has been the case for so many others?

907:

academia reaches up to 200,000 and it should be carefully attributed, but general estimates easily surpass the 100,000+ limit. As for individual massacres have you read the only primary source of the period? It's the

731:

of just Albanians reaches up to 200,000. If we add to that all the other communities that suffered throughout the Balkans, the total number is even higher, so 1,800-8,000 in Plav-Gusinje is not something out of the

1399:

was genocide..."? BI does not endorse the view that a massacre took place. Pacariz only describes the commemoration. Nowhere does she endorse the view that a massacre actually took place. Face it, you don't have a

1943:

Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years

2986:

there are reliable sources, any instance of genocide is notable enough to be included and page created, than. In recent months, on several occasions, I have come across individual editors who reassured me that

1493: 81: 1052: 413: 846:

Side note: Are you seriously arguing that 200k Albanians were killed by the Serbian and Montenegrin armies? Even the Albanian primary sources from 1913 don't report a figure in excess of 25k. I've seen some

617:

She is referring to Mulla Hajro Basic/Basha/Bashiqi who changed his named Balsa Balsic for a certain amount of money and was used by the Montenegrin army as a "local judge" to condemn many locals to death.

960:. I carefully investigated the issue and concluded that such claims did not receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, which is the request of WP:NOTABILITY. -- 702: 641:

In 1913, 4 000 Albanians in the vicinity of Peje and Gjakove alone, and 8 000 in Plave and Guci, were shot after refusing to renounce their Moslem or Catholic religion and their Albanian nationality.

2405:. Then followed Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo. Only when Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo were included did the forced baptisms have to be stopped under pressure from Austria-Hungary. 2013:. Then followed Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo. Only when Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo were included did the forced baptisms have to be stopped under pressure from Austria-Hungary. 1551:

BI explicitly says that these were mass killings and uses the verb "allege" to refer to whether they can also be called genocide. The fact that these were mass killings is written in BI's "voice".--

911:. The series of massacres described by the international committee reaches up to tens of thousands. As for single massacres, after the Balkan Wars: in 1919, 700 were killed in Rozhaja and in 1924, 3026:- I reserve the right to change my mind and/or be wrong. I am not that familiar with specific Balkan Wars war-crimes, which is, in my case, evident in this example, and especially regarding RS.-- 761:

Dedushaj is a primary schoolteacher and political activist. We've been over this. Moreover, just because he is cited by a scholar such as Verli doesn't mean Knowledge (XXG) should treat him as a

2832: 2280: 982: 449:

I agree that the article creators are acting in good faith and many of their contributions to Knowledge (XXG) have been extremely positive, which is commendable. I wouldn't categorize this as a

2407:

The other sources describe the trials which were held after the events for some of the officers involved and how today in Montenegro the President of the country recognize these events as the

227: 908: 1927:(presumably the reason you did not insert a link), and the second is a primary document from 1920. Still no modern secondary reliable sources verifying the existence of this "massacre". 2047:

Just above this comment, there are two full quotes from sources added today in the article's content and bibliography. Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin (2013) wrote their paper for

288:

As before, I propose a compromise solution, which is to describe the instances of forced conversions and displacement (which almost certainly took place) in the history sections of the

1349:

The President of Montenegro has apologized for these events and the commemoration in Plav-Gusinje involved the whole area not just "some activists". 2,500 people in total participated.

2125:

Yeah you love talking about this. Never mind how it could just as well apply to the other side ... or the total lack of evidence other than the alleged ethnicities of other users. --

193: 870:

was later convicted by a military court for his actions. These events are part of the official military history of Montenegro. His actions are extensively described by Dedushaj.--

2279:

How many of the sources do you consider to be "too politically-charged"? I'm asking that because you were one of the few editors who voted !keep when I nominated for deletion

159: 154: 329: 163: 2107:, expecially here. For instance, if you actually look at the contribs log of all of those who voted "Keep". A pattern emerges, and it's pretty obvious what's going on here: 2709:

Their userpage makes quite clear their national background. Per Sadstein's relisting comment their votes should be cancelled. Otherwise I assume "all" users can vote again.

2420:

reasonable title, which if anyone considers to be wrong, they could start a move discussion, but nobody can argue that the article should get deleted because a source says

989:

with very bad bibliography only in order to write an article that would dispute the events of forced conversion (which is undisputed even by the nominator of the article).

2959: 2349: 981::Antidiskriminator is an editor who has been permanently blocked on Serbian wikipedia and a few days ago I nominated for deletion an extreme POVFORK he had written about 186: 146: 682: 497:(it has full bibliographical details - I used the same). Premović's article was published in Almanah, which is a peer-reviewed journal that is hosted online on CEEOL, 1488:"Almanah.com" and a...collection of folk songs (in Albanian). Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. The desperation is evident. You have written 349: 2650:

Notable topic. Once again, people having issues with the articles POW or its general quality is not reason for deletion. If the topic passes GNG then it passes GNG.

2939: 1749:

in the quote you provided, neither is there a description that warrants a 'massacre' article as you insist. It might have occurred but sources can't confirm this.

1267:

And many other articles on related topics. That is what should be taken in consideration when evaluating my !vote. Now, we can certainly move on. All the best. --

1860:

I found a paper published in Almanah in 2017. It is interesing because it highlights that these events were censored by Yugoslav historiography up to the 1980s.

1113:

If you really wanted to explain my editing history you could have pointed to multiple article on early 20th century Albanian related topics I created, including:

2255:

Not with these sources. I need to see real coverage in independent sources because issues like this are too politically-charged to rely upon partisan accounts.

772:. However, the articles don't unequivocally say that a massacre took place. Those sources merely report this as a claim made by Bosniak special interest groups. 664:

the era c)influences mass events in Montenegro and the diaspora from that country d)is an event about which the President of Montenegro has apologized about.--

615:

unsupervised was to hold a court-martial on his former congregation and to shoot all those who refused to be baptized. They numbered, it is said, five hundred.

118: 1205: 269:

massacre one of the largest of the Balkan Wars. Proponents of keeping the article during the previous discussion invariably resorted to arguing that there

133: 3036: 3013: 2971: 2951: 2916: 2862: 2844: 2826: 2802: 2749: 2718: 2697: 2659: 2636: 2608: 2582: 2563: 2536: 2505: 2491: 2468: 2437: 2393: 2361: 2334: 2270: 2245: 2210: 2177: 2163: 2134: 2120: 2090: 2072: 2040: 2024: 1997: 1983: 1936: 1917: 1894: 1874: 1837: 1819: 1797: 1780: 1758: 1740: 1705: 1687: 1667: 1650: 1631: 1608: 1579: 1560: 1479: 1418: 1389: 1340: 1312: 1276: 1175: 1108: 1090: 1068: 1039: 1020: 1002: 969: 928: 919:

in nearby Kolasin. What makes it so extraordinary to you that more than 1,800 people were executed in Plav-Gusinje just a few years before these events?--

901: 879: 864: 741: 714: 694: 673: 474: 438: 402: 381: 361: 341: 321: 64: 1185: 2055:(SAS), while Dietmar Müller (2005) is also an international Balkans scholar whose book was published by the well-known German academic publishing house 1906: 1514: 621: 1073:

It looks like you're right, Antid. The article was nominated for deletion less than an hour after you left your comment. I wonder if this is a case of

1299:

sorry I've been gone for awhile, but I'm a bit confused and can't quickly find the answer in all this text. Is there something that changed since the

728: 647:. You can certainly claim that in the article it should be used with attribution to the author, but notability of the topic has been established here. 1532:

The President of Montenegro in a public ceremony recognized this event, not a random politician. I don't understand why you would think that this is

2903:

12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure

2789:

12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure

2403:

12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure

2011:

12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure

248: 2474: 215: 1536:

important in deciding notability. So you think that the president of the country just randomly recognized publicly an event that never happened?

514:

The two sources in English don't just "mention" these events. The BalkanInsight article was written specifically about this topic. Full quote:

420:. I think that the article creator is acting in good faith but it's important to use high quality sources when writing about ethnic conflicts. 1802:

There are sources that call it a genocide and the descendants of those killed started in 2012 a campaign for it to be recognized as genocide.

1729:

Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.

1059:. This comment is aimed to create false narrative about me so it can be used at report against me, in the absence of real valid arguments. -- 150: 1096: 819:

Krasniqi mentions an imam from Plav who converted to Orthodox Christianity and had his cousins killed for refusing to do the same. Again,

2835:. Any closing admin can review that. Can you instead of putting forward comments about 'ethnic blocs" in this AfD focus on its content?-- 1727:

the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913.

1861: 1545:

against their ancestors. The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to

499:

a leading provider of academic e-journals and e-books in the Humanities and Social Sciences from and about Central and Eastern Europe.

494: 209: 2879:

on your part to keep arguing for deletion. Also, don't make unsubstantiated accusations against other editors based on their origins.

113: 106: 17: 2809:

Indeed, an admin can see that all but one of the keep votes are from the same ethnic bloc. And any admin can see that the statement

1619: 1300: 2378:

happened but we can't be sure independent academics call it a massacre although Knowledge (XXG) claims so in the article's name?

2287: 205: 142: 70: 2684:

requires significant coverage in reliable sources and this article doesn't meet either of those thresholds. On the contrary, it

1354: 516: 2693: 2632: 2559: 2501: 1170: 1086: 1016: 897: 860: 470: 377: 357: 337: 317: 2551: 1658:: Not a single RS provided in this article. For certain it does not pass the threshold. No wonder DYKN was a straight failure. 483:

I'll be copying the arguments about the bibliography from the previous AfD (with some changes), because not much has changed:

270: 1622:

about this article that was closed? What were the changes made since then to justify the premature reopening of another Afd?

644: 588: 2895:

When Plav in northern Albania was occupied by the Montenegrins, 500 Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity were shot

1963:

When Plav in northern Albania was occupied by the Montenegrins, 500 Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity were shot

255: 127: 123: 501:, from where I got the citation. If Balkanicus wants to discuss about CEEOL or Almanah or Premović, there's RSN about that. 2887: 1955: 1941:

Khirurg, you're misinformed or maybe you haven't read many of the full quotes which have been placed like Pacariz (2013):

1720:

joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history

1371:

joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history

543:

joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history

2219: 2104: 852: 2157: 1190: 432: 3055: 274: 40: 2688:

multiple sources (some reliable, most not) to reach the conclusion that a massacre of thousands of people took place.

1272: 1215: 1160: 1064: 965: 1512:

There were military trials about these events and in 2012 memorials were erected by the descendants of those killed:

2776:

of the Academy of Sciences of Kosovo has placed the total number of Albanians killed during the massacres at 8,000.

2689: 2628: 2555: 2497: 2309: 2052: 1951: 1082: 1012: 893: 856: 609: 466: 388: 373: 353: 333: 313: 264:

The issues outlined in the previous deletion discussion still haven't been resolved. The article relies heavily on

1328: 724: 221: 1570:

had that many people in total at the time). Surely there are are sources that investigated this? Where are they?

1210: 1200: 831:

these countries were plagued by hackery, malpractice and nationalistic dick-measuring. I fail to see how this is

2370:

material, I'd have a hard time believing any Slav on the question of a massacre. Müller doesn't say there was a

1081:? In any event, this deletion page is no place for such polemics. Both of you, please take your beef elsewhere. 1074: 2461: 2386: 2263: 52:. Again. I'm procedurally renominating the article with an editing restriction; see the forthcoming third AfD. 2883: 2876: 2967: 2947: 2912: 2840: 2798: 2604: 2578: 2487: 2433: 2357: 2330: 2068: 2020: 1979: 1870: 1815: 1776: 1736: 1683: 1556: 1475: 1385: 1220: 1165: 1104: 1035: 998: 985:. It was (obviously) deleted. Now, this editor decides to comment here. Antidiskriminator wrote the article 924: 916: 875: 737: 710: 690: 669: 297: 2677: 2547: 1925: 1268: 1060: 961: 629: 489:

Gusinje whose book is on its 4th edition offline. It is regularly used as bibliography by historians like

301: 3051: 2230:

Needs input by more people Needs input by more people uninvolved in Balkans issues.ed in Balkans issues.

1515:"Pranë memorialit të te pushkatuarve të parë më 1912, pas okupimit të Plavë Gucisë nga Mali i Zi (foto)" 1195: 36: 1905:

Malcolm, "Kosovo" pp. 253-5 and Judah, "The Serbs", pp. 85-6. Another source that touches the topic is

953: 775:

Elsie is merely reprinting primary source material. This doesn't get the article past the threshold of

2851:

the AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua)

2811:

the AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua)

624: 1404:

reliable source that says a massacre did indeed take place (after what I imagine must have been some

2772:

convert were executed. Modern Bosniak organizations maintain that more than 1,800 were killed (..)

780: 3034: 3011: 2999: 2714: 2455: 2398:

Bibliography in very certain terms describes that hundreds to thousands were killed. Müller writes

2380: 2316: 2257: 2130: 2086: 2056: 1993: 1913: 1833: 1793: 1754: 1701: 1663: 1308: 1225: 241: 1455:"KËNGËT POPULLORE PËR KONVERTIMIN E DHUNSHËM TË SHQIPTARËVE NË FENË ORTODOKSE NGA FQINJËT SLLAVË " 848: 2963: 2943: 2908: 2836: 2794: 2600: 2574: 2532: 2527:

The article should be improved but that is not reason for deletion when we have a notable topic.

2483: 2429: 2353: 2326: 2064: 2016: 1975: 1866: 1811: 1772: 1732: 1679: 1552: 1471: 1381: 1100: 1031: 994: 920: 871: 733: 706: 686: 665: 2886:

of the claim that it is "not substantiated by literature", Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin

2685: 2624: 1717: 1368: 1078: 820: 791: 540: 458: 309: 265: 1541:

More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of

637:

The Kosova issue--a historic and current problem: symposium held in Tirana on April 15-16, 1993

2858: 2822: 2745: 2655: 2173: 2116: 2036: 2003: 1932: 1890: 1763:

You just argued that the article should be deleted because one of the sources describes it as

1711: 1627: 1604: 1575: 1504: 1442: 1414: 1362: 1336: 585: 534: 398: 102: 29:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.

3050:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

912: 790:. But he doesn't mention any kind of massacre, only that 2,000 refugees had fled to Scutari ( 620:

News reports in the local press: Memorial of the first person who was killed in the massacre.

579: 450: 35:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

2152: 1646: 1180: 986: 957: 888: 427: 2681: 2496:

You still haven't explained why islamawareness.net should be considered a reliable source.

2100: 2060: 1828:

and I have the feeling that sources like instituteforgenocide.org can't be helpful on that.

2322: 2205: 490: 2620: 2569: 1882: 1825: 832: 809:

Rebecca West is another primary source, not a secondary one. This doesn't stand up under

787: 769: 762: 462: 417: 305: 1454: 1434: 1055:

before Maleschreiber folllowed my edits and nominated for deletion article that I wrote

3027: 3004: 2992: 2710: 2236: 2145:

Neither of the new sources has significant coverage that would count towards WP:GNG...

2126: 2082: 1989: 1969: 1909: 1829: 1789: 1750: 1697: 1659: 1304: 55: 810: 776: 612:

she specifically writes] just about the village of Plav (not the region as a whole):

454: 282: 2773: 2528: 1565:

You're just recycling the same discredited sources over and over. Find me one, just

2854: 2818: 2741: 2672: 2651: 2169: 2168:

Yeap, passing mentions are just not going to cut it. Thanks for pointing that out.

2112: 2032: 1928: 1886: 1865:

when many historians have dedicated so much effort to accurately document them? --

1623: 1600: 1571: 1500: 1410: 1332: 605: 581:

Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania

394: 2680:. Also, POV isn't one of the arguments that have been made in favour of deletion. 180: 2831:

Don't arbitrarily categorize editors based on their national backgrounds. Here's

768:

As I said in the previous discussion, Balkan Insight and Pacariz are undoubtedly

636: 2147: 1642: 422: 1804:

A CENTURY OF MONTENEGRIN GENOCIDE ON BOSNIAKS AND ALBANIANS IN PLAV AND GUSINJE

628:

About the forceful conversions and the beginning of the events: Kolë Krasniqi,

2199: 1881:

Almanah.com is not a peer-reviewed journal and does not meet the criteria for

1445: 1026: 1008: 803: 2443:"nobody can argue that the article should get deleted because a source says 2063:

territory here if you're actually saying that for any of these scholars)? --

1136:

Some of the articles on early 20th century Albanian related topics I created

1641:. Topic is well-cited in both Albanian and Bosnian sources. No POW here. -- 1803: 1011:

attacks on other users. If you have a beef with Antid, take it elsewhere.

393:

Your support is already assumed, there is zero reason for you to add this.

1731:

I have placed the same quote three times. I hope this time you read it.--

1810:

is one of the many descriptive titles and it's certainly the less POV.--

799: 453:. But as Wikipedians we have to abide by certain parameters, including 293: 92:

Articles for deletion/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (3rd nomination)

87:

Articles for deletion/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (2nd nomination)

2882:

But just to help the readers in order to understand the magnitude of

281:

a massacre as having taken place, and the entire premise thus fails

851:

claims on Knowledge (XXG) before, but that is way out there. Also,

1675: 1053:

Template:Did you know nominations/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13)

414:

Template:Did you know nominations/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13)

416:), I unfortunately found that several of the sources do not meet 824: 823:. How does this = Plav-Gusinje massacre? Feel free to add it to 795: 578:

Galaty, Michael; Lafe, Ols; Lee, Wayne; Tafilica, Zamir (2013).

289: 3046:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

2833:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Demonization of the Serbs

727:

number of casualties for the Balkans Wars. The total number of

2315:

Dietmar Müller is an international scholar, published by the

2222:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

1322:

Yet, had such a large massacre taken place, one would expect

2875:

I've already posted quotes upon quotes upon quotes, so it's

630:

Islamist Extremism in Kosovo and the Countries of the Region

2475:

Killings and Forced Conversion in Plav-Gusinje in 1912-1913

2473:

That is an argument about a possible rename which could be

1380:

How is it that they don't refer to the events explicitly?--

703:

list of Bosnia and Herzegovina-related deletion discussions

465:. Unfortunately, this article doesn't pass that threshold. 2784:

that no original research is needed to extract the content

2619:

The sources are synthesized to reach a conclusion that no

1765:

forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks

816:

Local newspapers are not academic, scholarly publications.

595:

which I still haven't had the time to add in the article:

312:

trap that currently plagues this problem-riddled article.

2304:

Zuzana Poláčková/Peter van Duin published their paper in

2002:

New source in the article's bibliography. Dietmar Müller

1966:. I'll add that to the article's bibliography, thank you 909:

Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars

498: 635:

About the total number of casualties: Jusuf Bajraktari,

533:

Sabina Pacariz, also in the bibliography of the article

1924:

Your first source is published by "islamawareness.net"

1056: 1048: 176: 172: 168: 1097:

Talk:Destruction of books in post-independence Croatia

493:, member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania in his 240: 82:

Articles for deletion/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13)

2321:

Kolë Krasniqi, a university professor, published by

623:. List of the 700 who were killed in total in Previ 2233:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 1988:Maleschreiber, also take a look at Dietmar Müller. 1331:does not apply is highly intellectually dishonest. 608:was a famed travel writer of her age. In the book, 254: 2478:people in an organized state-planned campaign as 43:). No further edits should be made to this page. 3058:). No further edits should be made to this page. 2958:Note: This discussion has been included in the 2938:Note: This discussion has been included in the 2849:How about you strike the blatant falsehood that 2348:Note: This discussion has been included in the 701:Note: This discussion has been included in the 681:Note: This discussion has been included in the 348:Note: This discussion has been included in the 328:Note: This discussion has been included in the 1549:of Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. 723:: 1,800-8,000 killed in Plav-Gusinje is not an 330:list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions 1674:Why isn't Pacariz (2013) who was published by 2960:list of Religion-related deletion discussions 2350:list of Politics-related deletion discussions 2286:Nonetheless, I'll reply to your request. The 1692:Pacariz is RS indeed, but unfortunately does 584:. The Cotsen Institute of Archaeology Press. 277:". Yet, there are no non-Balkan sources that 8: 2817:. You're not helping your credibility here. 1954:(SAS). Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin 1206:Committee for the National Defence of Kosovo 683:list of Albania-related deletion discussions 134:Help, my article got nominated for deletion! 350:list of Serbia-related deletion discussions 2957: 2940:list of Islam-related deletion discussions 2937: 2347: 2111:, as with every such discussion nowadays. 1747:massacre' or any equivalent term is absent 1186:International Control Commission (Albania) 1131: 1095:AB, I was already discussing with Ant. on 700: 680: 347: 327: 1077:and disrupting Knowledge (XXG) to make a 1045:Now, this editor decides to comment here. 1946:Ktrimi is quoting a paper published in 304:. This way, we aren't falling into the 79: 2899: 2891: 2850: 2810: 2787: 2770: 2447:without a reference to the exact term 2442: 2424:without a reference to the exact term 2409:dark side of the history of Montenegro 2399: 2007: 1959: 1942: 1044: 2707:are not uninvolved in Balkans issues. 1547:mark the anniversary of mass killings 1176:Autonomous Albanian Republic of Korçë 18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion 7: 2623:reaches on its own, in violation of 750:I'll address your points one by one: 2793:thousands of people were killed".-- 1435:"VАSOJEVIĆI PREMА PLАVU I GUSINJU " 77: 2705:Both Sadsadas & Crazydude1912 2568:AB, there are many full quotes of 2413:Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-1913) 495:work about Plav/Plav-Gusinje/Gucia 24: 1958:(the link is from the SAS site): 1495:to try to save this article, and 1007:Maleschreiber, please don't make 1696:mention any event known as such. 1618:: wasn't there just recently an 143:Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) 119:Introduction to deletion process 71:Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) 1171:Bulgarian occupation of Albania 2109:coordinated ethnic bloc voting 1047:Incorrect. I wrote a comment ( 979:Side comment for closing admin 645:Academy of Sciences of Albania 410:Support highly selective merge 1: 2901:Njegos apparently also knew, 2401:Njegos apparently also knew, 2009:Njegos apparently also knew, 1543:what they allege was genocide 2453:That's precisely the issue. 2197:per lack of coverage in RS. 1824:This article needs a decent 1497:not a single reliable source 1191:Albanian Congress of Trieste 2411:. I renamed the article to 1722:and later she also writes: 1373:and later she also writes: 1216:Black Society for Salvation 1161:Republic of Central Albania 545:and later she also writes: 457:, and do our best to avoid 109:(AfD)? Read these primers! 3075: 2310:Slovak Academy of Sciences 2053:Slovak Academy of Sciences 1952:Slovak Academy of Sciences 1433:Premović, Marijan (2013). 794:). Feel free to add it to 643:This was published by the 610:Black Lamb and Grey Falcon 3001:01:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC) 2778:Besides the need for RS, 2740:"vote" twice or whatever. 2573:the sources themselves.-- 2281:Demonization of the Serbs 1453:Zejnullahu, Adem (2006). 1211:International Gendarmerie 1201:Peasant Revolt in Albania 983:Demonization of the Serbs 412:while reviewing the DYK ( 3048:Please do not modify it. 3037:03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC) 3014:03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC) 2972:05:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2952:05:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2917:04:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2863:04:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2845:02:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2827:02:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2803:02:29, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2750:20:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2719:19:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2698:15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2660:14:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2637:15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2609:22:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2583:02:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC) 2564:15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2554:aren't valid arguments. 2537:19:51, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2506:15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 2492:21:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2469:21:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2438:19:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2394:17:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2362:15:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2335:15:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2271:02:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2246:08:23, 30 May 2020 (UTC) 2211:17:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 2178:05:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) 2164:07:48, 26 May 2020 (UTC) 2135:15:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) 2121:05:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) 2091:19:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC) 2073:00:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC) 2041:23:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 2025:23:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1998:21:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1984:20:26, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1937:19:36, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1918:15:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1895:19:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1875:13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1838:16:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1820:15:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1798:15:43, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1781:15:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1759:15:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1745:Pardon me but the word ' 1741:14:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1706:14:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1688:13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1668:07:59, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1651:10:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1632:02:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1609:02:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1580:18:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1561:02:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1480:13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) 1419:01:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC) 1390:23:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1341:22:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1313:21:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1277:19:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1109:19:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1091:19:30, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1069:19:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1040:19:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1021:19:13, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 1003:19:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 970:18:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 929:20:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 902:19:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 880:19:27, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 865:19:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 742:18:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 715:18:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 695:18:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 674:18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 475:18:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 439:18:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 403:20:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 382:18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 362:18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 342:18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 322:18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) 65:14:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC) 32:Please do not modify it. 2989:there must be only a RS 2306:Studia Politica Slovaca 2049:Studia Politica Slovaca 1948:Studia Politica Slovaca 1221:Albanian revolt of 1911 1166:Albanian revolt of 1912 298:Albanians of Montenegro 2445:800 people were killed 2422:800 people were killed 1725:was performed to mark 1459:Gjurmime Albanologjike 302:Bosniaks of Montenegro 279:unequivocally describe 76:AfDs for this article: 2690:Amanuensis Balkanicus 2629:Amanuensis Balkanicus 2556:Amanuensis Balkanicus 2552:WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES 2498:Amanuensis Balkanicus 2291:politically-charged": 1196:All-Albanian Congress 1083:Amanuensis Balkanicus 1013:Amanuensis Balkanicus 894:Amanuensis Balkanicus 857:Amanuensis Balkanicus 467:Amanuensis Balkanicus 389:Amanuensis Balkanicus 374:Amanuensis Balkanicus 354:Amanuensis Balkanicus 334:Amanuensis Balkanicus 314:Amanuensis Balkanicus 296:articles, as well as 271:WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES 107:Articles for deletion 2780:significant coverage 1352:Full quote from BI: 806:'s history sections. 2417:Previ Pass massacre 2317:Harrassowitz Verlag 2308:, a journal of the 2105:WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS 2057:Harrassowitz Verlag 1226:Independent Albania 853:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS 827:'s history section. 786:Again, Galaty is a 2898:and Müller writes 2228:Relisting comment: 3024:Additional remark 3016: 2974: 2954: 2364: 2248: 2244: 2051:a journal of the 1950:a journal of the 1269:Antidiskriminator 1249: 1248: 1061:Antidiskriminator 962:Antidiskriminator 917:Šahovići massacre 717: 697: 364: 344: 306:original research 124:Guide to deletion 114:How to contribute 63: 3066: 3032: 3009: 3002: 2997: 2676: 2467: 2464: 2458: 2392: 2389: 2383: 2269: 2266: 2260: 2243: 2241: 2234: 2232: 2225: 2223: 2208: 2202: 2162: 1973: 1529: 1527: 1525: 1466: 1449: 1329:WP:EXTRAORDINARY 1303:? Thanks all. -- 1301:the previous AfD 1181:Albanian Vilayet 1132: 889:Bosnian genocide 725:WP:EXTRAORDINARY 594: 576:Full quote from 437: 392: 259: 258: 244: 196: 184: 166: 104: 62: 60: 53: 34: 3074: 3073: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3056:deletion review 3028: 3005: 2993: 2670: 2462: 2456: 2454: 2387: 2381: 2379: 2323:Springer Nature 2264: 2258: 2256: 2249: 2237: 2235: 2218: 2216: 2207:(talk is cheap) 2206: 2200: 2195:Delete or Merge 2146: 2099:of people with 1967: 1902:Oppose deletion 1862:Rastoder (2017) 1718:Filip Vujanović 1710:Sabina Pacariz 1523: 1521: 1519:Plava-Gucia Sot 1513: 1452: 1432: 1369:Filip Vujanović 1361:Sabina Pacariz 1319:Delete or Merge 1250: 1137: 1075:WP:WIKISTALKING 954:Radomir Vešović 913:600 were killed 591: 577: 541:Filip Vujanović 491:Marenglen Verli 421: 386: 201: 192: 157: 141: 138: 101: 98: 96: 74: 56: 54: 48:The result was 41:deletion review 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3072: 3070: 3061: 3060: 3042: 3041: 3040: 3039: 3018: 3017: 2976: 2975: 2955: 2934: 2933: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2884:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 2880: 2877:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 2873: 2766: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2663: 2662: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2612: 2611: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2589: 2588: 2587: 2586: 2585: 2540: 2539: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2517: 2516: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2509: 2508: 2457:Chris Troutman 2382:Chris Troutman 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2319: 2313: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2284: 2274: 2273: 2259:Chris Troutman 2231: 2226: 2215: 2214: 2213: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2181: 2180: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2095:Oh, there are 2029: 2028: 2027: 1921: 1920: 1898: 1897: 1878: 1877: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1849: 1848: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1840: 1671: 1670: 1653: 1635: 1634: 1612: 1611: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1537: 1483: 1482: 1467: 1450: 1429: 1428: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1378: 1359: 1350: 1344: 1343: 1294: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1244: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1237: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1228: 1223: 1218: 1213: 1208: 1203: 1198: 1193: 1188: 1183: 1178: 1173: 1168: 1163: 1139: 1138: 1135: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1119: 1118: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1114: 990: 973: 972: 946: 945: 944: 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 937: 936: 935: 934: 933: 932: 931: 837: 836: 828: 817: 814: 807: 784: 773: 766: 758: 757: 756: 755: 754: 753: 752: 751: 718: 698: 677: 676: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 648: 633: 626: 618: 601: 589: 569: 568: 567: 566: 565: 564: 555: 554: 553: 552: 551: 550: 526: 525: 524: 523: 522: 521: 507: 506: 505: 504: 503: 502: 481: 480: 479: 478: 477: 442: 441: 407: 406: 405: 372:as nominator. 366: 365: 345: 275:but it's true! 262: 261: 198: 137: 136: 131: 121: 116: 99: 97: 95: 94: 89: 84: 78: 75: 73: 68: 46: 45: 25: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3071: 3059: 3057: 3053: 3049: 3044: 3043: 3038: 3035: 3033: 3031: 3025: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3015: 3012: 3010: 3008: 3000: 2998: 2996: 2990: 2985: 2981: 2978: 2977: 2973: 2969: 2965: 2964:Maleschreiber 2961: 2956: 2953: 2949: 2945: 2944:Maleschreiber 2941: 2936: 2935: 2918: 2914: 2910: 2909:Maleschreiber 2906: 2904: 2897: 2896: 2889: 2885: 2881: 2878: 2874: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2860: 2856: 2852: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2837:Maleschreiber 2834: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2813:is blatantly 2812: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2800: 2796: 2795:Maleschreiber 2791: 2790: 2785: 2782:in GNG means 2781: 2777: 2775: 2774:Mark Krasniqi 2767: 2763: 2762: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2738: 2737: 2736: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2732: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2720: 2716: 2712: 2708: 2704: 2701: 2700: 2699: 2695: 2691: 2687: 2683: 2679: 2678:WP:ITSNOTABLE 2674: 2669: 2668: 2667: 2666: 2665: 2664: 2661: 2657: 2653: 2649: 2646: 2645: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2626: 2622: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2614: 2613: 2610: 2606: 2602: 2601:Crazydude1912 2597: 2594: 2593: 2584: 2580: 2576: 2575:Maleschreiber 2571: 2567: 2566: 2565: 2561: 2557: 2553: 2549: 2548:WP:ITSNOTABLE 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2541: 2538: 2534: 2530: 2526: 2523: 2522: 2507: 2503: 2499: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2489: 2485: 2484:Maleschreiber 2481: 2476: 2472: 2471: 2470: 2465: 2459: 2452: 2450: 2446: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2435: 2431: 2430:Maleschreiber 2427: 2423: 2418: 2414: 2410: 2406: 2404: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2390: 2384: 2377: 2373: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2363: 2359: 2355: 2354:Maleschreiber 2351: 2346: 2345: 2336: 2332: 2328: 2327:Maleschreiber 2324: 2320: 2318: 2314: 2311: 2307: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2289: 2285: 2282: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2272: 2267: 2261: 2254: 2251: 2250: 2247: 2242: 2240: 2229: 2224: 2221: 2212: 2209: 2204: 2203: 2196: 2193: 2192: 2179: 2175: 2171: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2161: 2160: 2156: 2155: 2151: 2150: 2144: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2124: 2123: 2122: 2118: 2114: 2110: 2106: 2102: 2101:axes to grind 2098: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2088: 2084: 2079: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2065:Maleschreiber 2062: 2058: 2054: 2050: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2030: 2026: 2022: 2018: 2017:Maleschreiber 2014: 2012: 2005: 2001: 2000: 1999: 1995: 1991: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1981: 1977: 1976:Maleschreiber 1971: 1965: 1964: 1957: 1953: 1949: 1945: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1934: 1930: 1926: 1923: 1922: 1919: 1915: 1911: 1907: 1903: 1900: 1899: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1879: 1876: 1872: 1868: 1867:Maleschreiber 1863: 1859: 1858: 1839: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1812:Maleschreiber 1809: 1805: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1778: 1774: 1773:Maleschreiber 1770: 1767:, instead of 1766: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1748: 1744: 1743: 1742: 1738: 1734: 1733:Maleschreiber 1730: 1728: 1721: 1719: 1713: 1709: 1708: 1707: 1703: 1699: 1695: 1691: 1690: 1689: 1685: 1681: 1680:Maleschreiber 1677: 1673: 1672: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1657: 1654: 1652: 1648: 1644: 1640: 1637: 1636: 1633: 1629: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1614: 1613: 1610: 1606: 1602: 1598: 1595: 1594: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1568: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1558: 1554: 1553:Maleschreiber 1550: 1548: 1544: 1538: 1535: 1531: 1530: 1520: 1516: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1506: 1502: 1498: 1494: 1491: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1481: 1477: 1473: 1472:Maleschreiber 1468: 1464: 1460: 1456: 1451: 1447: 1444: 1440: 1436: 1431: 1430: 1427:But there is: 1426: 1420: 1416: 1412: 1407: 1403: 1398: 1393: 1392: 1391: 1387: 1383: 1382:Maleschreiber 1379: 1377: 1372: 1370: 1364: 1360: 1358: 1357: 1351: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1330: 1325: 1320: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1310: 1306: 1302: 1298: 1278: 1274: 1270: 1266: 1265: 1264: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1251: 1227: 1224: 1222: 1219: 1217: 1214: 1212: 1209: 1207: 1204: 1202: 1199: 1197: 1194: 1192: 1189: 1187: 1184: 1182: 1179: 1177: 1174: 1172: 1169: 1167: 1164: 1162: 1159: 1158: 1157: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1134: 1133: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1101:Maleschreiber 1098: 1094: 1093: 1092: 1088: 1084: 1080: 1076: 1072: 1071: 1070: 1066: 1062: 1058: 1054: 1050: 1046: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1037: 1033: 1032:Maleschreiber 1028: 1024: 1023: 1022: 1018: 1014: 1010: 1006: 1005: 1004: 1000: 996: 995:Maleschreiber 991: 988: 987:Avram Cemović 984: 980: 977: 976: 975: 974: 971: 967: 963: 959: 958:Avram Cemović 955: 951: 948: 947: 930: 926: 922: 921:Maleschreiber 918: 914: 910: 905: 904: 903: 899: 895: 890: 885: 884: 883: 882: 881: 877: 873: 872:Maleschreiber 868: 867: 866: 862: 858: 854: 850: 845: 844: 843: 842: 841: 840: 839: 838: 834: 829: 826: 822: 818: 815: 812: 808: 805: 801: 797: 793: 789: 785: 782: 778: 774: 771: 767: 764: 760: 759: 749: 748: 747: 746: 745: 744: 743: 739: 735: 734:Maleschreiber 730: 726: 722: 719: 716: 712: 708: 707:Maleschreiber 704: 699: 696: 692: 688: 687:Maleschreiber 684: 679: 678: 675: 671: 667: 666:Maleschreiber 662: 658: 655: 654: 646: 642: 638: 634: 631: 627: 625: 622: 619: 616: 611: 607: 602: 599: 592: 587: 583: 582: 575: 574: 573: 572: 571: 570: 561: 560: 559: 558: 557: 556: 549: 544: 542: 536: 532: 531: 530: 529: 528: 527: 520: 519: 513: 512: 511: 510: 509: 508: 500: 496: 492: 487: 486: 485: 484: 482: 476: 472: 468: 464: 460: 456: 452: 448: 447: 446: 445: 444: 443: 440: 436: 435: 431: 430: 426: 425: 419: 415: 411: 408: 404: 400: 396: 390: 385: 384: 383: 379: 375: 371: 368: 367: 363: 359: 355: 351: 346: 343: 339: 335: 331: 326: 325: 324: 323: 319: 315: 311: 307: 303: 299: 295: 291: 286: 284: 280: 276: 272: 267: 257: 253: 250: 247: 243: 239: 235: 232: 229: 226: 223: 220: 217: 214: 211: 207: 204: 203:Find sources: 199: 195: 191: 188: 182: 178: 174: 170: 165: 161: 156: 152: 148: 144: 140: 139: 135: 132: 129: 125: 122: 120: 117: 115: 112: 111: 110: 108: 103: 93: 90: 88: 85: 83: 80: 72: 69: 67: 66: 61: 59: 51: 44: 42: 38: 33: 27: 26: 19: 3047: 3045: 3029: 3023: 3006: 2994: 2988: 2983: 2979: 2902: 2894: 2814: 2788: 2783: 2779: 2706: 2702: 2647: 2595: 2524: 2479: 2448: 2444: 2425: 2421: 2416: 2412: 2408: 2402: 2375: 2371: 2305: 2288:Bibliography 2252: 2238: 2227: 2217: 2198: 2194: 2158: 2153: 2148: 2108: 2096: 2077: 2048: 2010: 1962: 1947: 1901: 1807: 1768: 1764: 1746: 1726: 1723: 1715: 1693: 1655: 1638: 1615: 1596: 1566: 1546: 1542: 1540: 1533: 1522:. Retrieved 1518: 1496: 1489: 1462: 1458: 1438: 1405: 1401: 1396: 1374: 1366: 1353: 1324:at least one 1323: 1318: 1296: 1295: 1025:It's not an 978: 949: 779:either, see 721:Side comment 720: 660: 656: 640: 639:Full quote: 613: 606:Rebecca West 596: 580: 546: 538: 515: 433: 428: 423: 409: 369: 287: 278: 263: 251: 245: 237: 230: 224: 218: 212: 202: 189: 100: 57: 50:no consensus 49: 47: 31: 28: 3003:corrected-- 2980:Strong Keep 2686:synthesizes 732:ordinary.-- 228:free images 2599:forgotten. 2239:Sandstein 1944:1912-1913. 1788:carefully. 1716:President 1446:1088898622 1367:President 1030:deleted.-- 1027:ad hominem 1009:ad hominem 781:WP:PRIMARY 657:Conclusion 590:1931745714 539:President 58:Sandstein 3052:talk page 3030:౪ Santa ౪ 3007:౪ Santa ౪ 2995:౪ Santa ౪ 2711:Alexikoua 2376:something 2127:Calthinus 2083:Calthinus 1990:Ktrimi991 1970:Ktrimi991 1910:Ktrimi991 1830:Alexikoua 1790:Alexikoua 1769:massacres 1751:Alexikoua 1698:Alexikoua 1660:Alexikoua 1539:BI says: 1470:region.-- 1441:. 54–56. 1305:Calthinus 849:WP:FRINGE 310:synthesis 266:synthesis 37:talk page 3054:or in a 2742:★Trekker 2703:Comment: 2652:★Trekker 2625:WP:SYNTH 2529:Sadsadas 2480:massacre 2449:massacre 2426:massacre 2372:massacre 2312:and Arts 2220:Relisted 1808:Massacre 1492:of text 1079:WP:POINT 821:WP:SYNTH 792:WP:SYNTH 729:killings 459:WP:SYNTH 395:★Trekker 187:View log 128:glossary 39:or in a 2855:Khirurg 2819:Khirurg 2673:*Treker 2170:Khirurg 2113:Khirurg 2078:Comment 2033:Khirurg 1929:Khirurg 1887:Khirurg 1624:N.Hoxha 1616:Comment 1601:N.Hoxha 1572:Khirurg 1501:Khirurg 1439:Almanah 1411:Khirurg 1333:Khirurg 1297:Comment 915:in the 804:Shkodër 800:Gusinje 598:Shkodra 451:WP:HOAX 294:Gusinje 234:WP refs 222:scholar 160:protect 155:history 105:New to 2682:WP:GNG 2253:Delete 2097:plenty 2061:WP:BLP 2004:writes 1712:writes 1678:RS?.-- 1656:Delete 1643:Fa alk 1402:single 1397:allege 1363:writes 950:Delete 632:, p.19 535:writes 370:Delete 206:Google 164:delete 2888:write 2815:false 2621:WP:RS 2570:WP:RS 2415:from 2201:Sadkσ 1974:!. -- 1956:write 1883:WP:RS 1826:wp:RS 1676:Brill 1524:6 May 1490:20 kb 1051:) at 833:WP:RS 788:WP:RS 770:WP:RS 763:WP:RS 463:WP:OR 418:WP:RS 273:and " 249:JSTOR 210:books 194:Stats 181:views 173:watch 169:links 16:< 2968:talk 2948:talk 2913:talk 2859:talk 2841:talk 2823:talk 2799:talk 2746:talk 2715:talk 2694:talk 2656:talk 2648:Keep 2633:talk 2605:talk 2596:Keep 2579:talk 2560:talk 2550:and 2533:talk 2525:Keep 2502:talk 2488:talk 2463:talk 2434:talk 2388:talk 2358:talk 2331:talk 2265:talk 2174:talk 2154:uidh 2131:talk 2117:talk 2103:and 2087:talk 2069:talk 2037:talk 2021:talk 1994:talk 1980:talk 1933:talk 1914:talk 1891:talk 1871:talk 1834:talk 1816:talk 1794:talk 1777:talk 1755:talk 1737:talk 1702:talk 1684:talk 1664:talk 1647:talk 1639:Keep 1628:talk 1605:talk 1597:Keep 1576:talk 1557:talk 1526:2020 1505:talk 1476:talk 1443:OCLC 1415:talk 1406:very 1386:talk 1337:talk 1309:talk 1273:talk 1105:talk 1087:talk 1065:talk 1057:link 1049:diff 1036:talk 1017:talk 999:talk 966:talk 956:and 925:talk 898:talk 876:talk 861:talk 825:Plav 811:WP:V 802:and 796:Plav 777:WP:V 738:talk 711:talk 691:talk 670:talk 661:Keep 586:ISBN 471:talk 461:and 455:WP:V 429:uidh 399:talk 378:talk 358:talk 338:talk 318:talk 308:and 300:and 292:and 290:Plav 283:WP:V 242:FENS 216:news 177:logs 151:talk 147:edit 2428:.-- 1694:not 1620:AfD 1567:one 1534:not 563:it. 285:. 256:TWL 185:– ( 2984:If 2982:- 2970:) 2962:. 2950:) 2942:. 2915:) 2907:-- 2890:: 2861:) 2843:) 2825:) 2801:) 2748:) 2717:) 2696:) 2658:) 2635:) 2627:. 2607:) 2581:) 2562:) 2535:) 2504:) 2490:) 2436:) 2360:) 2352:. 2333:) 2325:-- 2176:) 2133:) 2119:) 2089:) 2071:) 2039:) 2023:) 2015:-- 2006:: 1996:) 1982:) 1935:) 1916:) 1893:) 1885:. 1873:) 1836:) 1818:) 1806:. 1796:) 1779:) 1757:) 1739:) 1714:: 1704:) 1686:) 1666:) 1649:) 1630:) 1607:) 1578:) 1559:) 1517:. 1507:) 1499:. 1478:) 1463:36 1461:. 1457:. 1437:. 1417:) 1388:) 1365:: 1339:) 1311:) 1275:) 1107:) 1089:) 1067:) 1038:) 1019:) 1001:) 993:-- 968:) 927:) 900:) 878:) 863:) 855:. 798:, 740:) 713:) 705:. 693:) 685:. 672:) 659:: 600:. 537:: 473:) 401:) 380:) 360:) 352:. 340:) 332:. 320:) 236:) 179:| 175:| 171:| 167:| 162:| 158:| 153:| 149:| 2966:( 2946:( 2911:( 2905:. 2857:( 2839:( 2821:( 2797:( 2744:( 2713:( 2692:( 2675:: 2671:@ 2654:( 2631:( 2603:( 2577:( 2558:( 2531:( 2500:( 2486:( 2466:) 2460:( 2451:" 2432:( 2391:) 2385:( 2356:( 2329:( 2268:) 2262:( 2172:( 2159:e 2149:b 2129:( 2115:( 2085:( 2067:( 2035:( 2019:( 1992:( 1978:( 1972:: 1968:@ 1931:( 1912:( 1889:( 1869:( 1832:( 1814:( 1792:( 1775:( 1753:( 1735:( 1700:( 1682:( 1662:( 1645:( 1626:( 1603:( 1574:( 1555:( 1528:. 1503:( 1474:( 1465:. 1448:. 1413:( 1384:( 1335:( 1307:( 1271:( 1103:( 1085:( 1063:( 1034:( 1015:( 997:( 964:( 923:( 896:( 874:( 859:( 835:. 813:. 783:. 765:. 736:( 709:( 689:( 668:( 593:. 469:( 434:e 424:b 397:( 391:: 387:@ 376:( 356:( 336:( 316:( 260:) 252:· 246:· 238:· 231:· 225:· 219:· 213:· 208:( 200:( 197:) 190:· 183:) 145:( 130:) 126:(

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

Knowledge (XXG)

:Articles for deletion/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (2nd nomination) - Knowledge (XXG)

Index